 George Bruno with the 21 report. We are at the 21 summit in Orlando, Florida. The year is 2020 And I'm having a conversation with mr. Jack Donovan. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, man Wow four days in event that we never pulled off before Well, let me ask you this. Did we pull it off? We had three stages as far as I can tell. Yeah No, yeah, absolutely. I enjoyed it one of your superpowers is of Observation You observe Right. Yeah, sure. What did you observe for past four days? Well, I think it was just a you know, really productive group everything. There's no drama, which is nice I didn't notice any drama really and you know, you have a lot of Productive people getting together and sharing ideas. I enjoyed it specifically just because I wasn't speaking this year and and so I just got to Have fun and attend the conference and Meet with a lot of my Really colleagues in my industry at this point, you know, it's it's really a business conference for me Yeah, and so I get to talk to a lot of my peers You know see Elliott Hulse again You know see meet John Sanmez who I've been on his podcast before and and so forth and So it's a really good opportunity for me to meet all these guys and exchange ideas and it's funny and several people have talked about it throughout the conferences that You know, my book was out pretty early, you know 2012 now and so I have guys speaking who were influenced by me And then I get to watch their speeches and then be influenced by them. Yeah, you know, and I'm like, wow You really took that ball and ran with it, you know, like Really really inspirational stuff. It's like the student teaching the professor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely And it's good because then it feeds back into what I'm doing. I mean tanner tanner did some In his talk, he talked a little bit about my book that I'm working on now because no one else has seen it except for him And and he pulled out some ideas and rift off of things that I've just started talking about I'm like, oh, I got to go back in the book and add that in, you know Things that you know talked about different architects and stuff and he you know added three You know, so again, we're just all feeding off of each other And that's what really movements and intellectual movements all these things do you get all these minds together? And then they feed off of each other and riffle of each other. So it was really productive, I think Well, because you're part of the team you're like a fixture with the team It would be weird to not have you here and like some of the guys that were stuck due to Restrictions internationally that are not here. It was like weird not having them around, you know, it was just kind of Like something was missing, you know with some of the guys that weren't here, but I'm glad you were here But how interesting to be here and not be on stage Yeah, it's good. It's great. I didn't have to stress about anything. I didn't have to hide my room until the I went on stage. So yeah, I didn't have to worry about anything. I just got to to walk around and and really be more social than I was before because that was really the the key part of it for me You know to see some of the speeches sure, but also to interact with, you know, some of the attendees I get more time to talk to them. You know, I don't have to worry about all the technical things I'm gonna say the thing that I meant to say, you know that kind of thing so really Great time to build relationships and connections and so forth. So yeah, it was it was interesting seeing you in the audience you know in the different rooms and then I would turn a corner and then you'd be talking to two or three guys and you had like little mini sessions With people throughout the past few days. What are were there topics that were More frequent than others. What when people pull you aside? What do they talk about? What do they want to talk about? Oh, man, uh, I don't know like I ended up talking to a lot of people about ritual and about myth And because that's kind of where I found my specialty. You know as this, you know industry, you know You know the men's writing and so forth has grown Uh, I found that my niche is changing, you know at first, you know, I had to be the almost tactical looking guy of like You need to pull it together. These are tactical virtues. This is what men need to do And uh now as we bring in guys who are like, you know, Special operations and then so forth that who have done all those things to have more expertise in those areas Now I can kind of relax into the stuff that I enjoy doing More, you know, it's like you, you know Be the guy that they need you to be at the time and now I can Relax into talking more about myth and about art and about creativity and so that's I don't know what they they grabbed me to talk about but that's what we end up talking about because that's what I like to talk about so Yeah, we talk a lot about creativity. I mean I was up until Whatever three o'clock last night and we're talking about Initiation rituals Yeah, and and how to how to do that and we're you know, the function of it and how Something can be changed in the future and and and so forth and and I ended up talking a lot like that so So you went from being a professor so to speak to being like the department chair person I guess I was a little demotion. Well, no, it's okay. Yeah, it's a promotion. Yeah, good. Good. Yeah I Like to look at you as you're kind of like the gateway drug To the man a sphere with a lot of guys. There's a lot of men who find the men's community through you And you are responsible And usually like the first time there's like this weird. What do they call it in? behavioral psych I don't know if it's called imprinting or something where you know, like we're geese if a man Is present when geese Are hatched they view it and they start following the man around like it's there and there's men That were hatched and evolved In the man a sphere they came to themselves under your guidance. You're the first person they encountered and You were their first exposure to them finding themselves or recreating themselves What a responsibility that is It is it's really weird as time goes on, uh, you know, you meet these guys and you've had that that influence on them over the years And it's a big responsibility as I've said to a few people and work on a new book now and Working in a book when I'm a truck driver in 2012 You can say whatever you want, you know, and uh, it's not gonna. I actually laughed about it Because he had some experiences early on where he told people to do things as a joke and then they did them Yeah, and I have that influence now that like if I say you should go do that then Guys might go do it and so I have to make sure I mean it And make sure it's the best thing for me to tell people And maybe a lot of people not just like a few guys, you know, when I heard the way man, I didn't think You know hundreds of thousands of people would read it. Yeah, like so, uh You know funny story actually said the the imprinting in the the first exposure. I got an email while I was at the conference Um A guy saying hey, you know, thank you for your book. I get you know, I get these a lot and it thank you for your book and it was It was given to me in jail Like some guy like a cop gave it to him in jail because he was you know, a military vet and so the cop Think he would be a problem You know, he's just in there for a few days or whatever and like so the cop handed him off a copy of the way of Man, I'm like you should read this And so that was his first exposure to me was a cop giving him my book in jail And there's all kinds of weird stories like that but that struck me as a particularly Somewhere there's a cop giving out copies of the way I meant to prisoners in jail, you know as they get out, you know So that's that's pretty powerful. So yeah, you want to make sure you're giving them right the right message I could just see this like five years from now We have a speaker on stage and he's talking to this group of men and he says Five years ago I was in jail and a man and a cop handed me a copy of the way of men by That man right there. Mr. Jeff and like it's going to blow your mind. You don't yeah You're reach you're reaching people that you don't even know right. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah All of the world. Yeah, it's very interesting. It's exciting and it's it's an honor I mean, that's what that's what honor is, right? I mean, that's it's a great honor And as we said a great responsibility as well. Yeah All right, so you're a prolific author. What is your favorite book your personal favorite that you've written? Um My personal favorite would have to be the way of men just because I think it's it covers It's timeless, you know, I don't think it's any less relevant possibly a little even more relevant Today than it was when it came out in 2012. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and I agree with it All of it still like I was right as far as I'm concerned And that's a good feeling because I've written things before it was like I wouldn't have said it that way or like maybe, you know, like we need to re contextualize that You know now or because because you evolve as a person but I think what I did was very fundamental to men and so it's It's still true and it's still relevant And uh, you know, I have felt a little bit like master drama's a little bit The cover of the way of men I only noticed that because I was taking a picture of it to upload into a t-shirt and They have masks across their faces and they they have neck gaiters across I mean, that's something I drew all that time ago and I'm like that looks very Right now it looks very 2020. Yeah, it looks very 2020 these gangs of men with masks over their faces. That's that's uh, How interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that struck me. That's weird. Yeah, but uh, so yeah, it feels very relevant still. Wow What is the profile? of your Typical follower. Is there a typical follower of jack donovan? no, uh, I do have I always say, you know, I talk about this. I always say I have two groups of guys And there are many in between obviously, but I feel like I have guys who have come from a Maybe maybe a country background or a they've they've been through the military or they've, you know had, you know A harder existence And they read the way of men and they're like, that's correct You know, and it's just matter of fact. They're like, I'm glad somebody put that in the words better than I can That's correct. And then they'll give it to their friends like see this guy's got it. We understand this, right? And uh, that's humbling and I I'm glad to see that because I'm you know Green braze and all these things that are like I read this. I'm like, yes, you got it and then I have another group which I always count myself more in personally is Nerds who need to realize that they need to get punched in the face You know, so it real, uh, you know guys who maybe haven't had any of that harder experience And haven't realized at some point like hey, I'm missing something in my life that I need to add in and uh, you know, whether it's a component of like physical strength or physical courage or, you know You know some kind of martial art or violence or something that they they haven't had experience with it And they feel like something's missing and so they read away a man. They're like, okay. Well, this is where I need to go And so, you know, like I said, I I count myself more in that group because a lot of things I've I've written about things like I I guess I need to go take a martial art I guess I go need to go through this because I'm missing that and if they're doing those things then You transform yourself and you kind of become the thing that you've idealized, you know, which I think is really important. So You do have an interesting following. I noticed there's a lot of guys who Emulate you your appearance and such and then you have the guys, you know with the thick You know black the thick lens glasses and the black rims Who are sitting in a cubicle all day long programming and coding and stuff like that who are huge Jack Donovan fans guys that you would never expect Nerds maybe. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I mean and I hopefully they're you know, that's always the problem when you write things And you give a big speech and you give a rallying cry and so forth. The problem is always Are these gonna these guys gonna put this into action? And are they gonna let it change them or they just like, yeah, and there there is a cathartic thing And I did a video against memes the other day because I was so tired of seeing Dude, not like memes are really bad, but I got so tired of seeing dudes repost these memes of you know, like Kind of the the masculine man like this is what the masculine man would say too You know this lesser person and And then I follow their accounts them like you're not that guy Like what are you doing? You're just posting memes to make yourself feel good Or you're just saying this is what we believe and therefore I'm better And that doesn't cut it. I that doesn't impress me at all. I think that When you see these guys actually put it into action and I've had because it's been many years now I have people have been following my work since 2007 Uh and uh, and so I've seen guys that are really have become Guys I want to hang out with you know, like guys who are better than me at something They're like they've you know, they said they took the ball and ran with it And uh, that's really inspiring So interesting. All right. I'm gonna pivot for a second I'm gonna turn back on something you said you were talking about some of the things that you were interested in things you teach on Things that you have discussions about you're talking about ritual and you mentioned art Jack Donovan talks about art Yeah, I'm I went to art school. That's good. That's my background. Uh, that's that's what I care about. Uh, you know, I That that I'm a visual person and that and that's uh, obviously I'm talking about concepts with the way of men, but uh I love to to see that the concept expressed and and one of the things You know, we actually even talked about in the red man group and it's I'm talking about the new book Is that men think you know, they Art is seen as not masculine and there's a reason for that And that hasn't always been so right, uh, you know, we think of all the you know, ancient Greek statues and and really the greatest art in history really Elevates masculine values Yes, you know whether you're looking at the Sistine Chapel and these like jacked dudes like Who are the gods and so forth? Uh, and uh You know whether you're looking ancient Greek sculptures. You're looking at uh, you know paintings up into a certain heroic statues in the center of town art raised men up and I think we had a position in a society where things changed It became very individualistic and the artist it became a little bit of a navel gazing thing. We're like Art is about however you feel and your weakness and your vulnerability and let's use art to challenge all the structure of society and And and so art became very anti masculine And men they don't know that they're responding to that but they are You know, they're they're seeing something that's like, well, you got famous for just doing, uh, you know Scribbling on a thing and not it's totally disordered man care about order And uh, so they see that and they're like, I don't like art art stupid Yeah, you know or you know some feminine poetry reading or you know, some like thing It's all about my feelings and and so forth and you know feelings are good But men just sometimes have different feelings or you know anger is a feeling um, you know Seeking glory it is a feeling like all all these things that are good And you know, if you look back at over the history of poetry and things like that I mean you have these great poets that are very inspiring And you know like you know all the way back to like Homer the the greatest stories that men are ever told are in poetry Yeah, and and so that's phenomenally important to our history as men and Uh, I think that if you're going to create a new culture that's inspiring to men You actually have to bring art into it. Yeah Like what do you get to the point where you have songs that reflect these values? And uh, you know paintings that reflect these values and and Something that's new and not just trying to go back to the past but something that's uh New like from the cover of my new book. I hired a a 3d artist You know to to you know digitally render my idea Yeah, and there's guys who are doing that right now with incredible skill So I just think there's a lot of opportunity for growth and that's really exciting to me like let's create culture Yeah, you know You've had over a year now to reflect on the poland trip. We were in poland last year I Well over a year now Talk about poland Now that you had a chance to kind of like let those thoughts settle in I mean, it was just it was a fun trip. I always like to go to europe I mean, I was I was supposed to go to europe this year I was supposed to go to switzerland and go to where nicha wrote, uh, zahra thruster And sills maria But um, you know, that's we didn't get to piero lives in switzerland, doesn't he? Yeah, he does. Yeah, okay Yeah, I was I was gonna go ahead, you know meet up with piero Hopefully and uh, so it just all got derailed But uh, I ended up going to design national park in america There's so many beautiful places in america people forget, you know, a lot of people europeans don't even europeans don't even know But poland as far as you know going there for the trip. I mean I I definitely got a kick out of it. It was not a prayer place. I would have gone to Otherwise, you know Linguistically and like the things that I'm interested in I travel to those places Like I'd like to go to grace right now because I've been reading a lot of myths And so I'd love to go see some of this stuff but You know, it was a great place. Obviously the people were really positive and It was, you know, great to see that different culture and You know, obviously a little bit more of a traditional culture and it was it was awesome to see a country that Had no patience for communism Because they've just been through it. So that was cool. And I love the Kind of blade runner feel of of poland You know, I mean, it's like all these like, you know, concrete buildings, whatever And then, you know, the ads are on top because, you know, capitalism swept in And so there's this contrast there that I think is really interesting There was still a lot of uh Black leather jackets with many zippers and a lot of like billy idle looking and I noticed Some people said, oh, there's kind of still stuck in the 80s. I didn't I don't look at it that way I saw a lot of Doc Martin boots there and It was interesting. It was interesting. They're not Really interested in a lot of trendy Western kind of stuff Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, they obviously get a different feed than we do, you know, we and because they're a different culture and they're You know, Eastern Europe is a little bit different than Western Europe and they're on the edge of that Yeah So, uh, you know, they're different, uh, cultural elements at play and I think, you know, These trends go all around the world. But uh, you know, they may not They have a little bit more of a root and that that is the thing with Europe that we miss a little bit in America You know, you you can anywhere in Europe you go to this thing and this thing has a 2000 years of culture attached to it You know, we only have a few hundred years So especially when you get into the west coast where I am most of the time, you know, even on the east coast There's a big difference. You know, you go to buildings that like, oh, well This is where the revolutionaries stayed and that's just, you know, down the street from, you know, the 7-Eleven that I normally go to And you know, it's it's it's all here and whereas they are inundated by all this history all the time They're surrounded by it and so they have that different and that gives I think a maybe that's counters a certain amount of trendiness when you're surrounded by stuff that's very old Yeah, you know, so but it's always, you know, we have to live in the now and I think that that's Something I'm always trying to get across to guys as I was talking about culture and so forth Is that people always want to like live in the past and go back to the past and reinvent the path, you know relive the past in some way and whatever we do it has to be right now Because that's what they did the people in the past. They were living right now. They were present It's always interesting going to a country that was Governed by kings not that long ago, right? I mean, poland was a monarchy not too long ago Yeah, very fascinating Great conversation with mr. Jack Donovan. Will you go to poland if we go again next year? Maybe Everything is so far in the future right now. The world's working, but yeah, I'm open to open to things Yeah, I have to see what I'm I have to see one of my books come I'm ready to present things then then maybe so Yeah, one last question before we wrap up. Rob. Who did you meet? That was interesting to you this year that you never met before at this conference. I would say at john's almez Excellent. Uh, yeah, because you met virtually before but you never met in person Right, right, right. And so that's always a different thing. Yeah You know, and so it was it was cool to interact with him And I even had a funny interaction with him like last night at like four in the morning We're you know, like he rolled in with a bunch of guys and we've all been partying and so like there's a realness Yeah, rather than yeah, and so it was good. We bought it over something. It was it was cool He's everything That I thought he was he really is a gentleman and what you see online Is him yet that gentle nature but that You know that gentle nature could change Quickly if it needed to change Yeah, yeah, and and he's in a role as as I am a lot of times where you are Kind of a I would say authority figure but a little bit more of a leader And uh, you know, that was one of the things last night A lot of the younger guys and volunteers they were all like spun up about something and whatever and you know It's me and john's almez being like what really happened here. Yeah, all right Let's calm down and let's figure out what actually happened and you know like give me the fact Give me the facts not the emotions. Exactly. Yeah, like a calm down kids. All right, this isn't that big of a deal You know, so it was you know, it was just him and me doing that So it was kind of funny because we've broken that role the two guys that have What I would call the most physically impressive slash intimidating slash impactful image Are the two most approachable guys At the conference and that is very interesting You are one of the most approachable and most easy to talk to people in the whole conference Thank you. That's great a conversation. We are going to end it this time a conversation with jack donovan. Thank you jack. All right. Thank you