 All right, well, welcome everybody. I appreciate you guys coming out for one of the end of day talks. Get sort of trickier to stay awake. I'm Clyde C. Posada, head of the training and certification group at the Linux Foundation. We have been at it for a good 10 years, figuring out that you do, in fact, need some training and certification. The fact that it's open source doesn't magically implanted in your brain. And we've been spending a lot of time thinking about the talent side of the equation. While most of our comrades are working on code and actually building great code. And so the training team works on the backside of that to figure out, OK, yeah, there's great code. What can we do to get more talent ramped up as both contributors and users of the ecosystem? I'm Jay White. I work on the open source strategy ecosystem team at Microsoft. I'm here on behalf of my fearless leader who couldn't be here today. But I am her hiring manager alternate on the team so I can speak directly to the challenges that are experienced with building and retaining teams in this kind of market. But also, how to help scale what's already in your organization and ramp them up to join your team doing maybe sometimes very different things. So we're going to run through a prepared slide presentation to a small group. So just raise your hand if you have a question. We'll stop as we go along. It's interesting. We submitted this talk right when we were at peak layoff, I think, happening this year. And they were like, is talent shortage still a real thing? Because there's hundreds of thousands of people on the market. Well, actually, it turns out most of those people got another job within six or eight weeks of their last job. And if you talk to hiring managers, those of you who are hiring managers in here or on the back end of waiting for new colleagues to come in through the hiring process, the issue of talent availability did not magically disappear when the economy got tight. It's still very real. And it's real across the world. So even post pandemic with remote hiring, we're still hearing that pretty consistently. And so the idea behind this talk was to say, hey, what's really happening out there? And what strategies are available to organizations that are permanently stuck with open seats that they wish they could fill? And the old definition of insanity. You have to do something a little bit different. And for the last five years, you haven't been able to get as much cloud talent as you'd like to have available. And so we're going to explore a little bit about that. I think we have an intro slide. And then, Jay, maybe just talk a little bit about the short thing. So we have a few pictures up here, right? Talking about economic crisis. You hear this across your organizations, right? There's a flux now. And you hear things like, oh, we have churn and revenue downturn. This organization is hurting over. Our customer is hurting over here. That's our main source of revenue. So we can't make this budget this year. And it's going to be in its domino effect, right? So you hear that. And then, of course, you'll hear panics when it comes to people getting laid off. And now you have problems in the housing market. And that whole bubble is bursting. And you see all those things represented there. What it comes down to is how our companies who have come off of COVID and they have these buildings that they've been leasing, that they've been putting all this money into. Their employees are now working from home. They're asking their employees to come back. But they're coming back into a storm where now there's no money for your free snacks. And there's no money for your catered lunches. What? The lunches are going away? The lunches are going away. You're not going to see the a la carte. You're not going to see the chef hats. They're not there anymore, right? So you have those kind of things that have created a situation now where you have not only the laughs we're talking about, but you have attrition. And everyone's stampeding outdoors of companies what they call the great resignation and all that kind of stuff, right? People are leaving companies now. People are starting their own companies now. I mean, I could do it better myself, right? Why should I go work for this company and make this much money for them when I could make a fraction of it, make a fraction of what they're making revenue-wise and I can keep it for myself? I'm talented enough. Why not? You see all those kind of things happening. So, you know, there is this idea that there is a change in the availability of talent because of the cutback because every time you turn on the news there's another wave of, you know, wave three of layoffs at XYZ sort of megacorp. Just this week, those of you who were in the keynote on Wednesday, Jim referenced this, we released on you 2013 State of Tech talent report that tried to put some data around what actually is happening out there at a macro level in terms of talent availability and it turns out what's happening is not what you would think was happening if all you did was read the headlines about wave upon wave of layoffs. Yes, it's real, but what the data says is that unlike past economic downturns, this time around a lot more of the people who were affected were pretty high earning kind of fairly senior folks who had been kind of hoarded at different organizations because in-house turns out that those expensive people when the economy gets tight, you start thinking about can I really afford to keep them? So the two things came out in the survey, one was it actually affected a more senior level that had happened in past downturns and the second was that even those companies that had cut back and done layoffs were continuing to hire with a focused more on entry level talent on some of the top areas of skill gaps like cyber and cloud and AI. And so when you think about talent, I'm sorry, go ahead. I have a thought, I have a thought. It begins with automation, one. There's also, when you consider what does a VP do today? I'm not, I think VP's in the room right now. I promise I'm not getting ready to crap all over you. I promise that I'm not getting ready to crap all over you. But let's imagine this, you reach the illustrious title of VP in an organization and now you've been sitting there 10 years, right? You've built up this fantastic org under you and it's very bottom heavy with you at the top. You may have a few directors, maybe a few more senior managers that are driving all this work below. All you're doing is now reporting metrics up, right? How are these metrics getting generated, right? It's not a PowerPoint anymore, right? Somebody's not doing a PowerPoint for you and you're not having to get this metric from this person, this metric from this person, this metric from this person, build a round table, okay, if this is what I'm gonna present to the president or this one I'm gonna present to the C-suite, these things are now automated. And now you have this wonderful dashboard that's automated. So when a C-suite is now looking at how do we increase revenue? How do we improve? So we wanna develop this new cool tool I'm gonna tell you right now, AI. Let's look at the whole AI, let's say evolution. AI's been around for a long time now, we're just catching up. But the whole AI evolution, right? Every major organization now is trying to find money to put in to this technology and be the first to market with something cool and fancy. Where's the money coming from? So if you look and say, well, who do we need more? The talking head here or the developer down there? Looking for logic here is not necessarily the appropriate path, because especially in the case of public companies where they have to answer to shareholders and like logic's out the window, right? And so you just have lemmings at this particular point. Layed off, so this is kind of what I mean when I say these would be the people that I would think would provide the most value to the company as opposed to entry level. You need both, I'm not saying one or another, but the senior engineers also got the job at some company, so that to me is baffling. Yeah, so on that end, I'll follow the point he made, very logical. What I will say is this, you have concepts now, not really a concept, but I guess solution, memory safe languages. So you're more senior engineers, you're more what I consider to be old school engineers. Are they coding? And what's considered memory safe languages today? Are they doing that? Or are they asking the younger developers to do that? Are they saying, okay, we'll show us what's being done to an organization who has to move fast? Remember, you still have SLOs that need to be met. Organization is moving fast. You're gonna wait on the senior engineer to get plused up, or you're gonna bring in that new budding fresh out of college. You just got finished coding in something like Rust. He spent his whole entire collegiate experience coding in Rust. He can come in and build whatever the hell you want, or you're gonna say, hey, senior engineer, go to like a 12-week course that we're gonna pay for. We're gonna fly you out to pay for, put you up and lodging and everything else. Learn Rust and come back. I mean, like I said, illogical in nature. I'm just giving up. I often think of a client I had, German guy who whenever there was a downturn, his mantra was always costs, walk on two legs. It is a difficult time to be a hiring manager. I think all of you knew. Absolutely. We have our challenges here, right? And then we talked about the resignations early on, great resignations, and you get the layoffs and things like retention, hiring. I mean, you see the slide there, right? To me, in my mind, the most important two you see here are the two down there on the right, the legacy technologies and the emerging technologies. Boy, aren't those two different ends of the coin when you think about hiring challenges? Why is that? That's because the newer individuals coming in have no idea about legacy technologies and the older individuals sometimes get so complacent that they take their eye off the ball of what's emerging. That's why it's wonderful to be in information security. It's wonderful to be in information security because I have no choice but to keep my eye on what's coming up next, right? Now, when it comes to the hiring challenges, though, I'll give you my story on how I found my way into the open source strategy ecosystem team. I just told you, I'm a security guy, through and through. I got hurt, I was a combat soldier and got hurt in the military on my second deployment. I was jumping out of planes and doing things that are a little bit uglier in nature. Anyway, I got hurt. I found myself getting reclassed first to HR and I hated life, then to IT, where I found a whole different set of challenges. But what that allowed me to do was to get plused up on, you know, I went back to school, got information security degrees with all that kind of stuff and found my way into information security. Spent my entire career, 20-something years doing information security, when I applied for a job at Microsoft, got turned down 40 times, 40 times, the person who looked at my resume and said, I want to talk to him, was Sarah Novotny. Why did Sarah Novotny want to talk to me? She said it straight up. In your resume and through our conversation, I saw that you have a philosophy around building communities in information security. My whole career has been spent, even in the military, it was spent with why the hell are we working in silos to solve these issues that we're all experiencing together? That makes no sense to me. And I brought that out into when I did information security and cyber security, supply chain security, everything else. Why are we talking about, why am I not getting all these business units together, forcing them into a room and saying, hey, why aren't we consuming open source software and third party bionaries the same way? Why isn't that done the same way? And so she saw that in my resume that I bring people together. What's open source? She said, you can't teach that. I can teach you everything else. That was March, actually I talked to her in January. I started Microsoft March 21st last year. I am sitting here presenting in front of you today at the open source summit. Come on, come on. You know what I mean? No, no, no, there's no need to clap. I mean, it sounds great, but I'm hating life. You don't understand, this is harder than it looks. Okay, just don't clap for that. But I think that's a transition to you. So the opportunities, right? Look at your teams and beyond, right? Check out the broader community. Great talent is available. You have no idea where that talent is or where they come from. They could be doing something completely different. One of the things that I see many larger organizations doing, some smaller ones do it a little bit better, is they have these things like take one, take two, take three, so these steps, right? Where they'll say, hey, you've been here for a year or you've been here for two years, why don't you go spend a semester with this other team over there? And then we'll take somebody from their team over here and we'll cross train. And then we'll send you back, right? That's an excellent way to find talent within your organization. Because things get mundane. Things get to a point where you're sitting there and you're doing something and you get complacent. And I have one individual, a mentee of mine that'll sit there and say, I liked what I was doing before, but now I'm just going through the motions. Well, maybe this is an excellent opportunity for them to find something else in their organization that they might have more fun doing. Go ahead. Right, and tradition has its values in some contexts, but in the context of technology where things are ever changing, at least if we're willing to recognize that, then this kind of legacy mindset is a problem to liability, right? So the point that you're making about like this cross-functionality essentially is what you're looking for in these teams so that you can say, hey, you might have come into the organization to do this thing and now we're moving you over here and tell me what you think about it. So portability, like individual portability, that requires a certain cultural buy-in. So I envy you if you're in an environment where they see the value of that and I would encourage everybody to try to implement that if they can because that is essentially the way forward where basically you're able to, it's not about hiring from within, it's about recognizing the talent you already have. Absolutely, and I'll tell you right now, I've been fighting because of budget, they're not gonna give it to me, but I've been fighting to get my own team stood up to do all of this stuff. I'm in so many different places in open source now, it's not even fun. So I said, hey, I need help. I need to put people in this place. So instead of getting the help I need, I reached out to different engineering teams because I did what was done for me. I looked at resumes and I have five engineers right now that I have sitting in open SSF SIGs and working groups that are helping out, that they're hands-on keyboards still doing what they love, right? But participating in these communities is such that they're getting skills from other individuals, right? That they're pulling in skills, right? They're having these conversations and they're loving it. They hold meetings for me, they love it, right? So finding that talent from within is key too, to help build up those teams. And they may not be direct reports to you, right? But you can actually help them develop unto themselves and then provide evaluations so that they can grow in terms of their own teams because they have a leg up that people on their teams don't have and that's the skills you're teaching. It's interesting how the problem gets phrased, right? So for those of you who are hiring managers, when you don't fill a role, the question is always, why didn't you fill the role? Did you not advertise in the right place? Did you not use the right recruiter? Nobody ever comes and says, why didn't you grow your own talent to be able to fill those, right? The mindset in too many places is go outside. LinkedIn is your talent buffet. Find the good passive candidate, sick a recruiter on them, pay 30% upfront and you should get the results you want, which is to put some existing talent from somewhere else and plug them into a hole. And nobody's saying that you should not do that, but a single strategy of buying talent in will never get you where you need to be, right? And it's sort of interesting that you think that people have learned this over the past five, 10 years, but there's some sort of momentum around culture and behavior where they just keep ramping up the recruiter budgets. Okay, how about do that plus do a couple of different things to try to figure out other ways to fish for talent in non-traditional places and to look for potential talent within your existing organization? Companies know what challenges they face, right? It's interesting historically when you look back, big waves of tech change had typically been coming kind of one at a time, right? So you had the mainframe wave and then you had a desktop wave and then you had the virtualization wave and then you had a containerization wave. But when you look at it now, it's sort of like, there's like five things coming at you simultaneously, right? Board is asking you about generative AI, the security people are down your throat, talk paranoid about whether you're gonna be on the front page of the new tomorrow. You still have a giant pile of legacy app model that's running in a basement somewhere that nobody wants to deal with because it's not sexy to work on. And you don't get to pick and choose, you know, hey Jay, I'll do your security thing next year, okay? Because I'm working on this other thing right now. The talent problem has actually gotten worse because now you're trying to address multiple major technology shifts in a context where you already didn't have the amount of talent that you need to do. And by the way, you still have a serious legacy, you know. There's a whole different talk we could give about legacy systems and people pretending like they'll happen, keep working forever because they work today. And at some point the music stops and you have to deal with legacy technologies and how many people still know how to run it. And especially now because, you know, the big sea change from a year ago is all of a sudden the market case about profitability and budgets have gotten a lot tighter. And so talk about doing more with less. So again, everybody's looking at your cost structure but they're also expecting you to go. And you know, so, and I don't know your name but I apologize, Green Sweater, yes. You made an excellent point earlier about the senior engineer, letting them go, right? Well, these are the individuals, this is how organizations suffer, right? Need to keep and maintain legacy systems. Those individuals understand the legacy systems that are in place and then be a let go. I was just in the hall talking about this and I said, actually, yeah, some of the individuals in the hall when I said this, I said, if you wanna defeat a new system today as a pentester, you wanna defeat a new system, write your program a Fortran, right? Because there isn't a new system out there that'll read that, but guess what? Your legacy systems might. But we're trying to scrap those for the new shiny, the shiny new things. And you can't get away from a lot of them, especially because some of these new systems might hold, you know, some of the crown jewels and you sit there and you make a bastion holster as you take them off your network and sometimes you just connect them to, you know, update something. If something can be updated on it, right? Shrug, who knows? Some of the systems can't even be patched. But for an organization to keep and maintain these systems, because it's incredibly hard now because of that attrition, because of those layoffs that occurred. So now you're asking a younger individual, hey, get plused up on this, huh? Questions. Why has the apprenticeship model phased out? Instead of arming recruiters with a bunch of money coping their throwing darts at a wall and hitting high quality talent, why not cultivate and upscale your talent when there's actually studies that show there's higher retention models with that and you're teaching them not only to handle the legacy systems, but additionally you're teaching them about the new software that's rolling out as well. Funny enough, for the very thing that just happened, right, job security, which now is a oxymoron, the right term for that. But we are all scared to death for months, right? But what you just talked about, right? To teach somebody to make yourself obsolete. That was always, especially for your senior folks, that was always the thing. Hey, I wanna make myself obsolete. I want you to know, if I can teach you and teach my whole team how to do all this work, I can sit back, just take your metrics and report those things out. I'm not needed. But, well, okay, right, right. So make yourself obsolete so you can do something that I'll add that in. Yes, so that you can step up. The idea is, and this is something that I've always said, if I have a team and I move up, guess what, you move up too, right? If I move, you move up too, but that's not the case as we clearly see it, right? The fear, the idea that if I move up, you move up too, that was always the case. But then there was also that fear that if, you know, hey, wait, wait, there's no place to move up. Well, if this is the limit, right? Then you're like, well, I'm not gonna teach them how to do that because then they can take my place and add a lower, add a lower cost point. It's not justifiable, but, you know, with the attention economy, the way that it is, people are just like, you know, squirrel, squirrel, they're looking for their opportunities because they don't have justification, they don't have evidentiary reasons with regards to why they might be able to live out the rest of their career at the organization that they're at now, right? So long as people are constantly questioning their value and that is not being articulated to them by the people that are, whose opinions they value, they will constantly be looking over their shoulder for the next opportunity. Yeah, you still have a, unfortunately, unfortunately, this is still a who you know, not what you know game. So the individuals you find in seats that have impact and influence are often times not the individuals that know the wealth and breadth of the organization. Those individuals are still making sure the organization has wealth and breadth to know about, right? And that's really the opportunity, right? Cast your mind back to three years ago, how many people in senior positions would categorically rule out the idea for remote workforce? Never could happen, contrast people, you lose, I mean, those same people, not all of them, but many of them have found religion in, wow. Turns out they work more if they're not spending four hours in traffic trying to get to the office and there's only so much free haircuts and lunch can get you. Cultural change is hard, right? When you're trying to change 40 years of how things were done, you have to try some different things and you're not always gonna have a pandemic that sort of forces you to take stuff off, right? So there's one strategy which a lot of companies have woken up to that they would have categorically said didn't work for a whole bunch of reasons and they're now saying, oh, actually, this is great, we can go find people in different locations, we can bring them on, they can be totally productive. But if you have that same discussion about upskilling the legacy cobalt, Fortran programmer, they look at you like you have two heads, say, oh, that's, A, where has it worked? Like, I haven't seen it work. And B, how long is that gonna take? This is ingenuous. We are sitting here because of Linux. Linux was built by people working from home. All the top people that work on Linux and most of the rest of us have been working from home for well over 20 years. Well, Linux was from 92 and it wasn't until the pandemic that a lot of organizations. I understand that, but what I'm saying is that many of those organizations are using Linux and have grown on Linux and built their entire business around Linux and yet the technology upon which they are were built from people working remotely. And I know lots of people, certainly in the kernel community, who will only work remotely. It was not for a lack of... Even at companies that require people to work, you know, co-located, they still work from home. It was not for a lack of evidence that it could work. It was a lack of practice of actually seeing it work at scale in organizations like themselves. You know, one of the challenges, I think you asked about mentorship, it takes patience to grow talent in house, right? You don't just drop somebody in and two weeks later they're productive. But it also takes patience to onboard a new employee. It takes you six months of the recruiter to find the person and it takes three or four months to teach them how to do it. Then half of them leave after six months because the next recruiter poached them on to the next thing. We get somehow the idea of saying, I'm gonna invest in this guy for a year to upskill him. Seems like heretical, right? But it's, why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you take an all-of-the-above strategy to saying, I can't hire my way out of this problem. So I should try some hiring. I should try some cross-skilling. I should try some remote. I should go to some, you know, the community college on the outskirts that I've never been to before and try to find some young folks that maybe don't have a degree and take an all-of-the-above strategy to sort of try to develop that talent. Because you know what, it's true. Maybe half that talent moves on after a year and goes on to something else. Are you better off by having the half that remained part of your organization than you would be if you didn't do it at all? Of course you are. And it's dramatically cheaper, right? For what you would spend on a single recruiter, you could probably upskill a dozen people in your organization. If you have the patience to let them work through it for six months, nine months, a year and get them up to that point, because the one thing you know is they're already a fit for your organization, right? You're gonna pick people that have been in the organization that understand the work culture, that understand the style of it. But there's an element of trying different things and being patient to let them pan out that is new, right? It's not unlike remote work three years ago. And there's plenty of evidence that it works. How do organizations get their head to a different place where they're willing to try using some of these strategies in addition to the current strategies of browse LinkedIn that you see a nice resume? Because you have to have all of the above. I have a question there. If you were going to champion this, so if COVID issued the new wave of having people rethink remote work, how could we issue that next paradigm of getting back to non-traditional talent pools, mentorship, apprenticeship, who are those internal champions inside of legacy companies like Linux to go to, to have these discussions? I imagine it's not HR will more so be senior management or who? All of the storytelling, like Jane's story. Yeah, a lot of these, let me put it like this. I spearheaded the program. This is a couple of companies ago. When we had, they were talking about, we need more cybersecurity folks. Or we need to get some junior level cybersecurity people with five years experience. And it's not like guys, I don't know what the hell. So look, understand something. We skipped over a talking point we had. And that was around with the recruiters and the job postings that you see online. What if I told you there's a portion of that job posting that we have no control over? And that's the preferred and required requirements. We have no control over that area. We have control of everything above that, where we describe the role, we describe the team, what you'll be doing, et cetera. When it comes down to that preferred or that required where it says required, four year degree, we have no control over that. That's put there by HR and HR says that needs to be there. For purposes, for legal purposes, I guess, I don't know. I sure don't know. Oh, I said, I'm getting ready to get there. So a program that I had, two things. One, it said, well, what if we reached out to people on LinkedIn or reached out to people, get the resumes in and then say they don't have any degrees, we circumvent the whole hiring process. We became the hiring men. We became the recruiter. So we did that. But there was another thing. I said, guys, why aren't we looking inside of the business? Why aren't we looking inside of finance and accounting and you're business managers for cyber talent? They looked at me like I was crazy. And I said, once again, I told you, I got my information security bones in the DOD, Home of Information Security. I went to school specifically for information security. I'm probably one of the few folks in information security today that has actually have an educational foundation in it. So I said, information security is a business function. It's not a tech function. Why aren't we going to business people who already have learned business and bringing them in to teach them cyber? They can think cyber from a business perspective and then they can articulate risk, impact and recommendation in terms that the C level will understand so that maybe it's not so hard getting budget dollars. I don't know. We did have a little beat up on HR section in here which you can skip through. I know we're mindful of time as well, right? But one of the fundamental challenges is when you look across functions that HR fills, technology has always been an outlier where it's hard for HR folks to fully understand the requirements of the role you're trying to fill. Right, you as a hiring manager know what you're trying to hire. But the roles are so technical and oftentimes your HR professionals just kind of glazes over. It's like, ah, okay, whatever above the line. But here's what needs to go below the line. Four years of work experience, college degree, wouldn't relocate because that's our standard package of how we do things unless somebody three levels up the food chain says it's okay to change it. I'm at level HR range. I don't really feel like mucking with it because what's the upside for me? It's not their fault, by the way. It's not, yeah. And I'll get to your question in just a second. This is how I was just going to say that to support your argument that you have to be creative looking around and growing this kind of homegrown talent. That's the word people use. And some of the companies I have been at, they have done a summer professional growth type program with cross pollinating. That's another kind of bringing everybody together. And I would participate, I have participated as a mentee to somebody to understand what their business is different. If you have a large company, nobody knows what other group is doing. So the only way to know is interacting with somebody that is willing to teach another person. So these programs have been very effective in the company I have been. So that's kind of what you're talking about. And they also ask the questions, what are you waiting for? Or why don't you go do something? And there is a vision, the companies have to have the vision and commitment to the employees that they hire. And some of the companies I have been at they have given me, given everybody 10% of your time is yours to advance your career and will support you. So those are the things we need more of happening for us to be able to have a workforce that would be ready for future. It's a great point because we talked earlier a bit about the patients required to grow talent in house. The other thing that's required that we need to be able to do is another thing that's required that we have not historically asked of our tech talent is to invest time in mentorship. So the idea that the recruiter finds this great candidate that you can somehow magically plug and play and on day two they're productive doesn't ask much of the hiring manager or of their colleagues in terms of mentoring, growth and support. But if you're gonna grow talent somebody's gotta do it. Somebody's gotta find the time to line up with these folks and meet with them and coach them and guide them. And that is again part of the change management function is now we're asking our developers and our engineers to proactively invest the time in that next generation of talent that's coming up behind them. And now you're talking about capacity planning and prioritization. So it's not something you just flip the light switch on. It's something that has to be a commitment from the organization to the way that they want to work. I'm mindful of the time. I'm gonna skip forward a few here and talk about this from two perspectives. The perspective of the person at a lower level inside the organization thinking about what's next and the perspective of the newbie trying to start a career in tech which is challenging. How do I come in and how do I come in when every headline I see is that more layoffs are happening. But I know where maybe we... Yeah. So you see the challenges here. One of the things that I like to tell newer folks that want to get in and that's whether they're transitioning from a previous career that they already had or whether they're fresh in school or trying to figure out what to study. I tell them I need you to get as creative as humanly possible long gone of the days where you're gonna find a position that's static. There are no more static positions. You've got to get creative. Create your own lane and put that on a resume and put that out into a position you think it fits in. Just one thing... Just one position you think it fits in. Reach out. Do your homework. Become a hacker. Become a hacker. Find a person in that organization. Talk them up. Talk them up to the point where they begin to try to point you at different people. Find the hiring manager for that position that way and get your resume in front of them that way. Because oftentimes, you're gonna put your resume into that application system and they're gonna weed you out. The system set up to weed you out. Oh, what's up? It's gonna weed you out. It's gonna weed you out because I was gonna say this before. It's not the HR people's fault. Tech, as much of it as it is as a science, it's also an art form. It's so beautiful. It's a beautiful art. And every single industry, every single company in that industry, every single business unit in that company does it different. So in order to effectively get there, you gotta say, well, how can I differentiate myself? What do I like to do and then what do I love to do? And put those damn things together and the resume that way. So for the new person in college or the new person, say, I want to jump in. What do you like to do? Well, I like... I don't know. I like psychology. Psychology, and I don't care what anybody says. Psychology's not a major. Psychology is the best as a minor or something like that. What is it that you love to do? Well, I love working with animals. Excellent. Write an app that describes the behavior of animals. I don't know. I shrugged the shows. Write an app that does that and fall in love with it. Fall in love with it. You're in the game now. You're doing something you like, you're doing something you love and you're putting technology, technology be the glue that drives it together and now you can market that to an organization. Hey, I've built this. Go ahead. You can contribute to an open source project unencumbered by corporate interests and then you get a lot more visibility as a result of that and a lot more respect and become a member of a multitude of different communities. It is actually the red pill that you want to take. Damn, I forgot. I was at an open source conference for a second. It's great that you say that, right? I've had this, well, it's not really an argument anymore. It's more like an open discussion inside of Microsoft and with other partners and competitors as well. Open source is the way now. It's a business driver now. It's no longer something that, oh, that looks real cool over there. Let's see if we can bring it in and make it part of this and make it part of that. No, companies are now taking open source packages, bringing them into their organizations, slapping a new label on them and sending them out the door. They're business drivers now. They're revenue generators. Next time we'll bring our Mandalorian helmets because this is the way. I know we're out of time. The one thing just quickly before we wrap, non-traditional talent pools and folks who maybe can't see themselves in an IT career because they don't know anybody who's had an IT career. And because of that, they look at the news and they think, lay off, lay off, lay off. I already didn't know anybody in it and now everybody who's there is getting fired. So maybe I'll do psychology. There is so much good talent out there and you add this onto the whole availability of openness to remote work. Don't fish where you caught the fish yesterday. Fish where the fish are now. But bear in mind that that non-traditional audience is probably not feeling super bullish on a tech career. So what are you going to do to give them the confidence that there's opportunity here? How are you going to paint that picture? Because it's not the picture they're seeing in the news. So be mindful of where their heads are at and create some on-ramps for them where they can see possibility. I know we're running over and there's probably folks outside. So why don't we wrap it? I appreciate you all coming. Thanks for being part of the conversation.