 You're watching FJTN, the Federal Judicial Television Network. That just about covers your conditions, Mr. Ehrman. We just have a few special release conditions you'll need to follow. No access to a computer or a connected device, except a landline telephone at any time. No access to a modem. And finally, no access to the internet or BBS. Okay. Now that we've gone through your conditions, Mr. Ehrman, do you have any questions? Well, just one. When you say that I can't access a computer, what do you mean? Well, uh, it means just what it says. You may not access a computer. That's one of your special conditions. Well then, what do you mean by computer? The condition says no access to a computer or a connected device except a landline telephone at any time. Seems clear to me you can't use a computer or a connected device. Look, I don't mean to be a pain, but everything has a computer in it nowadays. I don't want to inadvertently violate that sort of word you used, right? Any conditions. I need to know what I can or cannot do. I mean, while cars have had computers in them for years, does that mean that I can't drive a car? And if I can't drive, how do I get around? Mr. Ehrman, we can certainly be reasonable. You won't violate your conditions if you drive a car. Besides, it says or connected devices. Okay, then what about ATMs? What? ATMs, those little boxes on the street corners with money in them. I know what an ATM is, Mr. Ehrman. Yeah, well, they're all computers and connected devices. Well... You think that ATM out in the middle of nowhere is just spitting out money because you were asked? Of course not. It's connected to a bank and that bank's connected to another and so on. What, you don't believe me? Look it up on the internet. I can't. Mr. Ehrman, Jeremy, may I call you Jeremy? You know, one of those conditions is I'm supposed to get a gig job, right? Right. And how am I supposed to do that when every single cash register is a computer? There goes a job at 7-Eleven. Not to mention a job at the mall. Maybe I could get a job at a gas station. Even gas pumps have computers in them. With this condition, I couldn't even work at a gas station. Whatever shall I do? Look, Jeremy, like I said before, we can be reasonable. Pfft. Could I use a dumb terminal? A what? Don't you even know what a dumb terminal is? It's one step above a glass TTY. It has a minimally addressable cursor, but no on-screen editing or other features normally supported by a smart terminal. Once upon a time, when, uh, glass TTYs were common and an addressable cursor was something special, what is now called a... Dumb terminal, perhaps? A smart terminal, on the other hand, has enough computing capability to render graphics or to offload some kind of front-end processing for the computer it's talking to. As soon as I've rendered this term, send me out as a lesson, but you might still hear a very end-of-the-term act like a smart terminal. Please consider stopping by the network if you see a workstation with a prospective program so that it can be made the out of one-of-the-server storage using a device that has a space. And welcome to our fourth edition of Special Needs Offenders. I'm David Leathery with the Federal Digital Center. As you saw in our open, our talking population today is the cyber-criminal. The scene was humorous, but like all humor, it does contain a grain of truth. A cyber-criminal with all of his gadgets, gizmos, and jargon can be intimidating. He can cause officers like the officer in our clip to think he's from another planet. Our purpose here today is to bring that cyber-criminal back down to earth. By learning what to expect from a cyber-criminal, officers can devise plans to effectively manage and supervise this growing population. And believe it or not, there are investigation tips and supervision techniques that don't require a degree in computer science. Today's broadcast is the second of a three-step process used to explore Special Needs Offenders. The first step, which you already should have read by now, is to the desktop reference, introducing cyber-crime, the Special Needs Offender Bulletin. We wrap up our coverage of cyber-criminals with an online conference. That's the final step to allow a district to share even more information. Now, this broadcast is for you, so ask questions and share your thoughts. All of today's discussion questions are contained in the broadcast participant guide, which along with the bulletin provides you with all the information you need to participate. We'll start with the world of hackers and crackers. We'll learn who they are and what they do. Then, we'll take a virtual tour of computer hardware. After the tour, we'll take a short break and return for our second half, which will analyze a case from pretrial services to supervised release. I'll be here throughout the program, but we have a lot to cover, so let's begin and go to our moderator, Mark Sherman. Thanks, David, and welcome. Our first topic is a popular one, Hackers and Crackers. We have several experts here to discuss the issues with us. Joining me in the studio today is Lanny Neuvel, Senior Pretrial Services Officer from the Western District of Texas. Welcome, Lanny. Thank you, Mark. We also have two probation officers joining us by phone from the Central District of California. Mark Stein is the officer who supervised one of the first hackers in our system, Kevin Poulsen. And Larry Hawley is currently supervising Super Hacker Kevin Mitnick. Both Poulsen and Mitnick were featured in the Special Needs Offenders bulletin. Welcome, Larry and Mark. Thank you. Thank you. Before getting into our panel discussion, let's first take a look at an interview we recently conducted with cybercrime expert and Orange County, California probation officer, Ed Harrison. Ed knows a little something about this topic, and he graciously agreed to share his insights with us. Let's take a look. Traditionally, a hacker has just simply been someone who is a computer code warrior, some programmer who sits there and punches in the commands that will eventually become the computer program. A hack is just simply taking advantage of a loophole in the system, taking advantage in some flaw in the way things work to their own advantage. If the original data remains there, they don't see it as a crime. Now, there's a computer vandal element. Now, that vandal element is the denial of service attacks, the famous attacks that we've seen in the media where it's like, hey, I'm going to be notorious. I'm going to shut down eBay. I'm going to shut down this bank or this exchange. And that personality is more like a tagger. He wants to get a reputation. He wants to get it fast. And it's a huge ego rush for him to see that his exploits made the national news. And the true hacker has tried to distance himself by starting to talk about, well, they're a cracker. However, just the proliferation of the term hacker by the media has almost eliminated the word cracker at all. Common usage has just made it that a hacker has become what a cracker was supposed to be, and that is just a computer criminal. They spell freak P-H-R-E-A-K, and it's phone freak is someone who is just enchanted and entranced by the whole telecommunications system, not just what they could do with computer networking, but actually being able to manipulate the phone system, to be able to make phone calls for free, to be able to exploit others' voicemail for their own needs, to be able to make calls on other people's dimes. The freak tends to be much more social than a hacker. However, there's a lot of folks that'll go to either side and play both sides of those crimes. The Kevin McNichol case was very interesting in that he certainly started out as a phone freak, and many of his hacking exploits were to get information that perpetuated his activities as a phone freak. They have this need to publish the information and their feelings and what's going on. They put these elaborate documents online, and it's incredible when we interview these offenders, it matches these manifestos. We've got a tremendous amount of data that we're starting to compile now, and showing that there's certain trends in these computer criminals. Certainly, they all thrive on systems. They want to explore complex systems. It's a challenge to them. They get a rush by being able to demonstrate a competence in manipulating those systems. And for a lot of these folks, the criminal justice system is just another hack. They'll try to buddy up to you, and that's part of their social engineering, where they're manipulating you to learn as much as they can about the system. They tend to be compulsive plan enlist makers. It's very common to find at a computer evidence scene spiral notebooks with complex notes of their exploits, where you can find specific entries in their own handwriting in these notebooks that correspond with crimes that you're investigating. So that's very common to find that. They have just fanatical need to organize their hard drives and these notebooks, but yet their home life can be absolutely chaotic. It's not unusual to have to push the pizza boxes and empty soda cans out of the way to even get to the computer. Usually, you'll see a lot of passive aggressive behavior, especially in a supervision model, where you're supervising one of these folks. Yes, I understand I have to do that. Yes, I understand this is the term of my probation. And then they'll walk out of there and they'll say, son of a, and they'll go do whatever they want to do to torpedo your supervision. Be aware that they're going to set some traps. I would not be surprised at all to find that you were being tape recorded when you were interacting with this person. I would not be surprised at all to find a diary of your interactions with that off, with that offender. So, I mean, these are things that you should certainly be aware of. Don't think that if you're going to, you're going to get in a hacker's face and have him shrivel and just tell you everything, one of the worst things you can do with a hacker is get in his face. It's, it's just, you've, you've instantly jumped to the, I'm not telling you anything mode as soon as you do that. I found success in joking and kidding with them and I'll bring up anecdotally some of their past exploits and inquire, you know, hey, what do you think about those guys who brought down eBay last week or what do you think about these guys who did this? How could they have done that better? And they turned into a teacher then and they really struck their ego and they'll tell you, I've learned from hackers the recipes to make street drugs. I've learned from hackers the recipes to make bombs. I've learned all these different things just by simply allowing them to become a teacher. We don't need to understand how to ingest drugs in order to supervise a drug offender. We don't need to be able to operate a firearm to be able to supervise someone who's a weapons dealer but those are certainly traits that help but it's more about understanding the personality. We are behaviorists. I mean, we're really looking at how someone behaves. The computer is simply an instrument to the crime. Okay, Larry Hawley, let's start with you since not only are you supervising one of the most notorious hackers, Kevin Mitnick, we're going to take a look at the first set of discussion questions in the participant guide and in light of Ed Harrison's description that we've just heard on the hacker-cracker profile and the exploits of Kevin Mitnick, what characteristics should officers be aware of when investigating this and supervising this type of defendant or offender? Well, based upon my experience with Kevin Mitnick, Ed Harrison's description of hackers is very accurate. Kevin prides himself on his intelligence. He's not been a note-taker during our meetings although he has confirmed our conversations with follow-up correspondence for clarification, almost in every case. Recently that slowed down some. Yeah, one thing to keep in mind that a hacker can be very social. I mean, Kevin's forte was social engineering. And he's very intelligent persuasive and charming when he wants to be. Okay, thank you. Now, Mark, you've supervised Kevin Poulson who's been through the system. Tell us a little bit about the characteristics and whether you thought that Ed Harrison's description was accurate. I agree with Larry that Ed's description was accurate. Kevin Poulson, the hacker I supervised, brought a small pocket-sized notebook and pen to all of our offices and kept detailed notes on our conversations and would follow up with letters to confirm and just to make sure that he knew what was going on and what the instructions were. He was a bit socially awkward and I think this demonstrates how hackers can run the gamut from being the more social person like Mitnick whose expertise was social engineering and then Kevin Poulson. While he was able to do those kind of things, his expertise was much more along the lines of the computer hacking in the phone system itself. Okay, I mean you've hit on something that's really important for us to emphasize I think and that is even though we're trying to construct a profile here with you guys and with Ed that there are differences within this population and you've just hit on that with the fact that Poulson was perhaps less socially oriented than somebody like Kevin Mitnick. Lanny, what are we learning from this end, particularly for the pre-trial services perspective? Well I guess we have to keep in mind that neither of these two guys ever made it out on bond. Right. So we really on the pre-trial side haven't had a lot of experience supervising. I do think that knowing, you know, getting a heads up on these characteristics is going to be really helpful not only when we do our investigations but also when we get into the supervision with the defendants. Eventually this is going to happen so you're going to need to be prepared. Okay, what we want to do now is throw it out to the field and go to our first field classroom. California Central Probation will start with you. Any reactions to either what's been said thus far or reactions to the discussion questions in the participant guide? Good morning Mark. This is Chris Sutton from California Central and we have Ed Harrison here also. We concur with the information that's been put out in the bulletin and we'd like to take it a step further from our experience with these offenders out here. We find that they, we tend to classify them in three categories. Are they a pedophile? Are they a hacker? Are they an isolated professional person who's kind of a chat room groupie who's getting into this type of stuff because of financial pressure? We do find that they are a challenge to one's wits. You have to be very strategic when you're dealing with them and when you're making contact with them you have to have your plan planned out and be ready to be confronted on the minutiae incidences because they do see black and white. They don't go the middle of the road. One of the things we do like to do is get in touch with the case managers in the institutions where they were to see about visitors and computer access there. We like to carry it over into having the case agent profile them and work in a collaborative effort with them. And we do like to throw out the question to them kind of what they use. And I'd like to be a millionaire. Who would you use as your lifeline if you had a computer system question and you needed help? So hopefully that gets some questions generated. Okay. Reactions, Lanny? No, not really. I kind of agree with what she said. These guys are going to be very difficult to deal with and we need to stay on top of supervision with them and be prepared for... I want to refer to them as antics because that's kind of what they are. They're going to challenge us at every step. Okay. Larry? Larry Hawley? Any reactions to what your colleague Chris Sutton has said? Well, I think she's right. I think the thing is, in dealing with these guys, you have to keep things very direct and let them know what their bounds are and then deal with them on a case-by-case situation. And what's been your lifeline if you've had to... I want to get back to this notion that Ed Harrison talked about in the interview about what we led up with in the opening video segment where a hacker can be intimidating, especially for someone who's less familiar with computers. And I wonder what that was like for you and sort of how you've dealt with it and what your lifeline has been. Well, like I said in one instance, I'm not a computer, a knowledgeable computer user. I was intimidated initially and then when I drew upon my chief probation officer and my supervisor and they said, hey, you know, you've been doing this for a long time and if you just follow the conditions of supervision and use the standard techniques of supervision, you're going to be fine. And I think that was very encouraging and helped me a lot. Okay. Chris, does that respond to some of the points that you've made? Yes. Okay. We also like to ask these people, are they an AM or a PM person? Because that's going to govern when we want to be out there making the home visit to making the home inspections. Right. Good. Helpful. And I also want to make a note because you referred to it in the way that you categorize different offenders that we, in the second part of this broadcast, we're going to be covering an offender or starts out as a defendant who is at least accused of downloading child pornography using a computer. So we'll get to that for sure. And I know that that's a concern of a lot of officers because that seems to be the predominant type of computer user in addition to fraudsters. And he's one of those too on your caseloads. So we will definitely get to that. I want to move on now actually to Texas Western Probation and Pre-Trial Services and ask you whether you have any reactions either to anything that's been said thus far or to the discussion questions. Texas Western, are you there? Hi, this is Mark Hewitt in San Antonio. Do you hear me? Hi, Mark. Thanks for being with us. Go ahead. What's your question or your comment? We have a few comments and I appreciate talking to Larry earlier today. Okay. But just in terms of answering the question on the handout in terms of characteristics, a few things I chatted down was simply I would want to get a good idea of the hobbies and interests of the offender, what his past times are, get a good assessment of the knowledge of his knowledge of computers, his financial status and activity by thorough review of credit reports and telecommunication bills, get a good idea of associations he might belong to and his associates, his job, job requirements, travel needs and a good layout, an idea of what the layout of the residence is. I was also thinking about how many of the techniques we can use in supervising these offenders are very similar to my position as a senior officer in white-collar fraud, thoroughly reviewing financial documents, inspecting, relying a lot on law enforcement, collateral contacts and something what Larry was saying earlier to me was that with Mr. Mitnick that one big important thing to consider is don't allow the offender to get you as an officer to make snap decisions right on the spot in your office. They take a lot of notes. We can take a lot of notes too. And hold on a second, let me stop you there. That's about all those are some of the things I had jotted down. Great. I want to get some reactions very quickly from Lanny because your question or your comments raise several issues that provide an excellent segue to the next discussion question. So I want to move on but first I want to get a quick reaction. I'm glad you touched base with Larry Hawley. I want to get a quick reaction from your colleague sitting here, Lanny Neuvel. I think Mark's right on target with that. I think the more information we can get about how they're living their life and their financial situation, the better off we're going to be as far as providing supervision and staying on top of whether or not they're in compliance with their conditions. Excellent. So a lot of the things that Mark was talking about ranked. Yes, yes. Okay, good. Larry and Mark bear with us a second. We're going to move on to the next discussion question. And thank you very much, Texas Western and California Central. Moving right along, based on these characteristics that we've been talking about thus far, what considerations might govern investigation and supervision of a hacker or cracker? And again, what conventional supervision techniques could an officer use? We've already talked about that a little bit, but Mark Stein, let's come back to you and get your input, particularly in terms of how it worked with your supervision of Kevin Polson. Mark, are you there? Yeah, how it worked with Kevin. He was very manipulative. He tried to manipulate both me and the system and he looked at the rules of supervision and all of supervision as a whole, as a game and something to try and beat or get around. What I did, my basic approach to supervision, I'm kind of a person, both guy and I humanized myself and that kind of broke down the adversarial relationship. Although right about two or three months into supervision, he did take the matter back to court saying that I was being way too restrictive on him, not allowing him to use a computer. Unfortunately, the judge backed us up on that. But once he started to see me as a person, it all kind of melted away. I think you just have to set clear supervision goals. And like Larry said earlier, don't make any snap decisions because they're going to write down everything you say and bring it back. So everything you say better be pretty good. In terms of supervision techniques, that's how I handled it. I found the flexibility that the court gave us in this particular case as far as his access to the computer, the internet or anything like that. It was all up to me. Now while Kevin did that, allowed Kevin to bring it up just about at every visit saying, hey, Mark, you know, you can allow me to do this or you can allow me to do that. It was nice that it was in my lap. I liked having that because any of the judge would back me up on my decisions. Okay, so you want to be prepared for manipulation. You need to be flexible. You need to rely on some of your most traditional supervision techniques that you've used in other contexts. And something that you mentioned yesterday when we were running through the rehearsalist thing, you don't want to try to match with them. No, I mean, they're going to know more than about the computer than you. I mean, that's all they do. Kevin's whole life was about the computer and the phone system. Anybody who spends that much time working on it like that, they're going to know more than you. And you don't, at the end of the day, you don't really have to be a computer expert to supervise these guys. They're just criminals who use a computer to do what they do. And so your good old fashioned probation skills are going to come in very handy. Larry Hawley, makes sense to you? Makes tremendous sense. I think with Kevin Mednick, he did the same thing. But then I told him, I said, you know, we're not changing anything. We're going from the court order. And he said, well, you have the authority to change it. And I said, yeah, but it's increments. You know, it's not giant steps. And I think that's what we built a sense of trust and mutual relationship on that, that he knew that I wasn't going to make drastic changes in the conditions of the supervision, even though the court allowed us to make certain decisions. We weren't going to do it. We were going to have to, it was going to come with time. Excellent. OK, Lenny, I want to come back to you. But before we do that, I want to throw it out to the field. And let's hear from Alabama Southern Probation. What's been your experience? And then we'll go to Oklahoma Western. Alabama Southern? Yes, sir. Mark, this is Gary, U.S. Probation and Mobile. Many of the points that Ed Harrison made, we find to be consistent with investigating and supervision of hackers and crackers. OK. The author should determine the offenders' love of systems through the judicious use of games and challenges, stroke his ego by encouraging him to teach the author about hacking and cracking, and understand the offenders' passive, aggressive nature and the futility of using traditional rewards. The conventional supervision techniques would include visual inspiration of the residents when you're making home inspirations or during the pre-science investigation stage. And at that point, you would make note of evidence of excessive note-taking or use of electronic computing or communication devices. A record examination such as his page or telephone, credit card billing information, and similar records. And obtaining information from collateral contacts, other family members. OK, let me stop you there, because you've just listed several things. And a lot of the things that you've mentioned corroborate or validate several of the techniques that we've heard mentioned either by Larry, Mark, or from our folks at the other field classroom. So that's extremely helpful. Sound accurate to you? Very much so, yes. OK. You guys clearly have done your homework. Let's go quickly now to Oklahoma Western and get your input on this. Now this is Ben's Washington District of Oklahoma. The only thing we might add other than obvious employment restrictions would be developing good relationships with family members for informational purposes. And also a system of give and take for reward versus compliance. Excellent point. Thanks. Again, you guys are doing your homework and making this a very, very interesting discussion. Before we come back to the panel here, I know that we have a fax, so let's go to David Leathery for that. Dave, we're not ready for it yet, so we're going to come back to the panel, get some reactions from Lanny first. Those three things that came to mind during the discussion. The first one is that these guys display a lot of the same characteristics as somebody with the anti-social personality disorder, and all of us have been dealing with that throughout our careers. The second thing that I think is really important is getting the family involved or significant others or friends or whoever in the supervision, especially if they're living with somebody, because they're going to be a really good source of information to us. And the third thing is that we really need to not ignore the fact that these traditional supervision techniques are very important. The computer related things that we may have to do with them to ensure compliance or try to ensure compliance are important, but the basics are really going to be what make things work for us. Interesting, okay. Larry Hawley, I want to ask you about the employment situation of Kevin Mitnick, but before I do that, my understanding is that we are ready now to go to that fax, so David Leathery? Okay, thank you, yes. We have a fax here from Northern Ohio, and the fax reads to the effect that we have a hacker convicted of a child porn offense. Would you comment on whether hackers are pure computer offenders or that they may commit other offenses like weapons, drugs, et cetera? Lanny? Good question. I think just like any other person who's involved in crime, if they get into something and get involved with it and get away with it, they may explore other options. Sure, and I think it's important to keep in mind that, and we'll see this in our later example when we cover the set of vignettes, that it's quite possible for somebody to commit several different types of offenses or at least be accused of committing several different types of offenses, and you got to keep that in mind. You're going to have to juggle, you know, perhaps two or three balls at the same time. Keep your eye on the ball. Good question. Thank you. I want to go now back to Larry Hawley because Larry, our folks in Oklahoma Western, mentioned the employment situation, and I know that Kevin Mitnick has some pretty severe employment restrictions, and I'm just wondering how you've handled that. Well, I think one of the things the courts let us be is a little creative in developing, you know, manners to supervise these individuals, and I think one of them is in employment. What I've done is that, and Kevin, every time he's offered a job or anything, I have him provide the prospective employer with a copy of his JNC, and then I also follow up with that employer about their understanding of what the restrictions and the requirements are as far as Kevin's probation supervision, and then they, in turn, will submit a letter to me acknowledging that they've received a copy of the JNC, they understand it, and that his employment will not violate those conditions. So I have them buy into it also, so that it's kind of a mutual admiration society here with all three of us involved. And how about Kevin Mitnick? Has he bought into this? He bought into it wholeheartedly. He said, that's great. He said, that's fine. I agree with that. He's the one that faxes them, the JNC, and I make sure that I get a copy of the letter and I speak personally to the employers themselves. So basically, I mean, we know that his restriction, his employment restrictions or his restrictions on the use of computers and connected devices are pretty severe. Is he gainfully employed now? He's got to, he's in fact, he's speaking before he got Giga Group, it's a corporate security, he's going to be the keynote speaker to that, this coming 27th of this month. And he's got another situation where he's working with Contentville and he's writing a monthly article, he's done one article so far. And he provides us copies of what he's submitting and stuff like this so we can review it. And as I told him, we'll do these and then we'll see, we'll get the feedback from everybody else because I've found collateral contacts to be extremely helpful. I mean, I have FBI agents, I have the POs from other districts and the district and everybody letting me know. So I get a lot of feedback even from the newspapers or reporters and TV reporters and stuff like this. So every time he does something because of his high profile, I get feedback and it helps. And Ed Harrison has been extremely helpful. Thanks, Larry. This has been a fascinating discussion. We've covered quite a bit, but unfortunately we've run out of time. So thank you so much, Mark and Larry, for joining us over the phone. Thank you. And Lenny, thanks and stick around for the next panel. To reinforce what we've just discussed, we'll leave you now and at the end of each segment with some learning principles. Then Dave Leathery will return to take us into our next segment. We've just learned what hackers do. Now to become more familiar with the tools that I may use, our advisory committee of officers thought you should take a virtual tour some computer gadgets and hardware. So earlier this summer, we turned the studio here into a computer store. Leading us through this maze is Scott Chin, a supervising probation officer here in the District of Columbia who also happens to be his district's automation coordinator. Scott, thanks for being here. Glad to be here, Mark. Before we get to all of the equipment and hardware, let me first ask you a more general question, which is why is it important for officers to know about this stuff and how does it relate to their job? Okay. Mark, it's about accessing information, illegal information, receiving that information and then modifying that information in a criminal format. Officers now, given the cyber environment we're at, need to understand what the landscape looks like and what are some of the tools that cyber criminals are using to commit the crimes. Okay. And we've got several of those tools here. We've split them up into groups. So let's start at the beginning with group one, the basic workstation. Mark, this is your standard computer, your CPU, central processing unit. Officers need to look for clone versions and illegal loaded software. Okay. Your monitor, this is a standard monitor, but look for the high-end flat-screen monitors, high-resolute color monitors, high-end resolution monitors used for counterfeiting and for child pornographers. Okay. And this contraption? This is your standard inkjet printer. You can print out basic spreadsheets, drug, transaction forms, whatever text documents you may use. The officer needs to look for laser jet printers that can print out crisp, clean documents, counterfeiting type documents, and also child pornography images. Okay. Now, still sticking with group number one, the basic workstation, what do we have here? Mark, this is your basic laptop notebook computer. This is the same thing here, except in a smaller, more mobile environment here. So we're getting portable with this. That's right. You can do the same thing, like I said, there, except this is concealable. So if an officer comes to the house and he's looking around for a computer, this can be put in the trunk, this can be stored under the bed anywhere. All right. So we're getting smaller, more portable, and more difficult to detect? That's correct. Okay. Now, we're going to move on to group two. What do we have here? Okay, Mark. What we do have is the key here is the storage capacity of these devices. Okay. And their external components. Number one, basically offenders can hide this stuff in the house when an offender comes to do a home visit. Okay. These are large. These are jazz, zip drives. They can be large amounts of information and files can be stored on these. Okay. And can be stored and hidden away from the officer. Okay. As opposed to the more traditional hard drive, which is what we have here. That's correct, Mark. And that would be installed in a regular CPU. That's correct. Or even a larger, more old-fashioned external hard drive. They store a lot. These new different types of drives and disks and zip and jazz and CD, which we'll talk about in a minute. Right. Store a lot of information, lots more information, and they're portable. That's correct. So they can be hidden from officers. That's correct, Mark. Okay. Another item here is your CD recordable. Basically, you can take the CD out, put it in a CD recordable machine. Okay. Put it in, download the information, and you're ready to go. So this is another storage type of device on a CD level. All right. Well, that's pretty comprehensive in terms of storage devices. Right. Now moving right along to our next group, let's take a look at some graphics device. Okay, Mark. This is your handheld scanner. Basically, you just scan a document, whether it be a fraudulent driver's license, passport or whatever. You just pass that right over the document. That's true, and it goes right into the computer. Okay. Here's a desktop scanner. Right. Or what you can do is for child pornography images, counterfeit documents, whatever imaging item you need to photograph, and modifying the computer can be done here. So there's a trend here. We're becoming more and more sophisticated, more and more portable, as we saw with the scanner and with some of the storage devices. And speaking of portable, sticking with graphics stuff, we've got a camera. Okay, Mark. This is your basic digital camera. There's no film in it. It's held digitally in the camera. What happens is you take so many pictures and you download it to the PC, and then you can view your images there. So no film required for this. No film required. Officers need to know that if they go to their offenders' homes and they say digital recorders or digital video cameras, they need to watch out. That should raise a red flag, especially if the offender is a child pornography. Very interesting. Okay, let's move along to our next group, which deals with communications devices. Scott, what do we have here? What is this monstrosity? Mark, this is your basic fax machine. It serves a dual purpose. Number one, you can receive information and you can print information from your laptop or your CPU. You can receive threatening devices, photos of children, counterfeit documents can come through here. This is your standard standalone fax machine copier. Your computers, like the laptop, will also have that same feature of receiving faxes and sending faxes. All right, and this is something that straddles the line between graphics and communication because it has both capabilities. It can copy and print and it can communicate. That's right, Mark. Okay, sticking with communications devices but getting more sophisticated, more portable, what are these gizmos? Mark, these are called, and for the special conditions when the court imposes, these are called connected devices. But on the technology side, they're called PDAs, Personal Digital Assistance. Here's a large version. You can store information, receive information off the internet. If there's no wireless connection, you can have an external connection to the computer or you can use the cell phone to dial in. Okay. Okay, I think more in line has been the smaller palm pilot. Same thing, you can receive information, it's used for calendring, email, even login into the internet. Okay, so welcome to the 21st century here. Exactly, Mark. I think one of the sort of common denominators here is not only the wireless capability but the screen. Correct. And this should mark if there's no wireless capability, you can use the cell phone to dial in. Right. Regarding the cell phone, now you can receive information, email, dial into the internet and receive information in a larger screen. Okay. Okay. All right. And what are some of these other gadgets back here? Mark, this is an external modem that's used, wire goes into the computer or your laptop and then you plug in your phone line here and you're ready to go. Okay, and now most computers or pretty much all computers are coming with internal modems. That's correct, Mark. Or just little cards that are in the actual machines. Right. It can either be in a laptop or in a regular desktop. Correct. And now you just plug your phone line in and you're ready to go. All right. And these cords? Yeah. Mark, these are called, these are basically fat pipe lines. Okay. If you take a look at it, the connection is a lot bigger than your telephone line. Mm-hmm. This will allow you to receive more information faster. Okay. Okay. This DSL cable lines they receive a lot of information. DSL standing for? Digital subscriber line. Got it. So your child pornography want information quickly. Okay. And a lot of information. All right. Now finally, we're going to move on to some equipment here in our last group of hardware, much of which has no legitimate purpose. Exactly. Maybe you can elaborate. Mark, these are called skimming devices. An offender will run a credit card through it, download it into the PDAs and then transfer that information into a reader, writer, or encoder. Okay. Okay. What happens is, stolen credit card is received here. Okay. Placed in here. Right. So this takes all of the full-track data. Right. Off the encoder. Right. And what happens is, this information is placed in the reader, writer. Right. And you take a blank credit card and run it through, or your credit card, which could be a visa. Right. The card he scanned could be a master card. Right. And you would take his information. Okay. And be able to use his credit. And the victim wouldn't know until he gets his monthly statement 30 days later. So again, we are getting portable and more sophisticated, and there's more stuff for the officer to look out for. That's correct. We were recently at the Secret Service here in Washington, and they are the ones who deal with credit card fraud. And they thought it would be a good idea for us to show officers two other pieces of equipment, the embosser and the tipper. The embosser being the machine that raises the numbers and letters on the credit card. And here's the credit card stock with the magnetic strip. And the tipper, which puts the gold, silver or black coloring on the card, and on the raised letters and numbers. And that's sort of part of the credit card fraud package. Very cool. Had to, couldn't turn it down. So here it is. Okay. Okay. So this is the stuff, I guess officers need to be looking out for, eh? I think so, Mark. They should have this type of hardware should not be in the home at all. Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Mark. You'll get a chance to meet Scott when we return from our five-minute break. In the meantime, please keep your faxes and questions coming. And please take time to complete your rosters and evaluations. We'll be right back.