 A very good morning to you. Thank you so much for being part of Y254. This is Power Talk. My name is Ram Maguko. As always, it is a pleasure being with you each and every Thursday. Remember, we are coming to you live from the broadcasting house here in Nairobi, Kenya. We are also streaming live through our website. That is at www.kebc.co.ke4-y254. Engage with us. We value your feedback. Let us know where you're watching us from and we shall sample your comments as we continue with this morning conversation. So today, we have a conversation about countering or fighting violent extremism and radicalization in the country, and in Kenya as we know it. So what is it that we need to do to stop these events of radicalization? How can we counter it? Extremism. We've seen it being said. We've seen reports come out that, oh, you know what? The country is receiving this number of people who are joining this particular group. These people we are seeing are planning this or planning that according to statistics. There is a terror attack that is supposed to take place at this time, on this date in this country. How can we stop it? On part of today, we want to find out the root cause of this. Are you a parent? Have you been in a position where you just realized that your son is a terrorist? How can you stop it? Let's call it as it is. Let's mention it as it is. How can you stop it? And how can you know what's going on with your child? Today, we want to put this into perspective, countering violent extremism and radicalization in the country, and to my extreme right, I'm joined by none other than Michael Kimondo. He is an organizer from Lengogadi, Nathalanta. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Yes, I am. Thank you so much for coming. I'm glad to be here. I'm glad to be here. Lengogadi, Nathalanta. That's a camera? Yes, it is. Okay. I'll explain it later. All right. And of course, you see next to me is Hanna Mukami, also an organizer from Women Against Terrorism. Karim Sana Hanna. I'm Hanna Ramm. You're welcome. I'm very happy to be here. Very happy. Looking good. Thank you so much. But your shot is different from his. Yes. You know, being a woman, I have to be better at things. But do we say, engage with us. The hashtag is Power Talk Show at Ram Maguko. You can engage with me at Y254 is the official station handle. Let us know where your signal is from and what you think about this. How can we stop this particular turn of events? Because we need youths who are going towards the direction that we want them to go to. We don't want to be caught off guard. And these things are happening as we know it. And that's why I write here on Power Talk. We want to keep you updated and educated so that you can be able to find out what you need to do and what you need to look out for. But before we get into the integrities, I want us to define these terminologies, these two terminologies, because we may be talking about extremism and radicalization, not Lashanga, isn't in it. Let's define them. And let me start with you, Mike. Yes. You mentioned extremism and radicalization. And for somebody who may not be able to understand what we are talking about, just in the layman's language, what is it? Extremism is basically use of rather beliefs that are on the extreme end. For example, beliefs that are, let's take an example of maybe what is happening. You know, most people have this stereotype that most Muslims are the ones who are terrorists. Yes. That is not true. It's certain individuals who have extreme views and have taken extreme views to achieve a certain agenda. Now that is extremism. Extremism could even happen in Christianity. You'd even look at it from the Uganda perspective of it, LRA. That was extremism. So it's not, extremism is not defined in religion only. It is just extreme views and ideologies forced into people. So it's not something that is, do we say acceptable? No. Do we say unacceptable? It's not acceptable because you don't have to force me to do something or believe in certain agendas. The thing is you're forcing me to do something because you're trying to achieve a certain agenda. It could be political. It could be most literally political. Yes. Okay. You thought about that. I love what he said at the, when you see a Muslim, you know, sometimes, I've even seen it in movies and I've also seen so many comedians have made this joke. You see a Muslim somewhere and then you just see some terrorism, some terrorist who is about to do something. It was a joke of some people who, it wasn't a joke. It was a movie. It was a series. It was a series. Yeah. And I'm looking at this and it is actually true that when we see some particular religion, we associate them with terrorists. Yeah, it's true. Unfortunately, that is sad but true because these stereotypes are what we are trying to fight and raise awareness against because terrorists are just a small group of people who have mis-conceptualized the ideologies they believe in to shape them to suit their specific needs that they want. In the case of a group like Al Shabaab, we have seen them recruit people from vast backgrounds, whether you're poor, whether you're a pastoralist, whether you're educated, we have seen them do that. And they do not care about the angels? They do not care about the age. Unfortunately, children as young as six, we have seen them on their army fronts and you're thinking a six-year-old should be in school actually drawing and painting with their fingers. Yeah. But that's all they're doing. They're giving a gun and then courage to shoot. And this is what is called extremism. Yeah, the adoption of those views. That is what is extremism. But now when it comes to terrorism, it is not what we see. What we see, people have made those beliefs become so much part into them. They sympathize. They want to support these groups. They want to finance these groups because they have been made to believe that whatever they are supporting, whatever they are doing is what is right for their cause, to address their grievances. But there are other peaceful ways to address all the grievances that we have. Yeah. And this is what extremism, radicalization. We don't define radicalization. It's now bringing people together. Radicalization is actually the process of actually making a terrorist. Yes. And I could put radicalization, it actually has a process in terms of you are first recruited and then you are indoctrinated. And then finally, you are now taken to the field. You're now wheeled a gun. You're now trying to execute the agendas of the al-Shabaab. That's radicalization. And it knows no religion, no gender, and no age. Those watching from home, have you ever asked yourself or wondered why some people who, you thought they are close friends, you thought they are the, you know, nijiraniakutu, all of a sudden you're not on TV, person of interest. In the case of Ali Salim, who was the mastermind behind Dusit D2, what the neighbor said, he kept to himself, he came, went into his house and left. Up until the Dusit II attack, that is when it hit them like, oh, we know this guy. And they were together for so many months? So many months, that was just their neighbor. That is somebody's child. They probably disappear and you're thinking, and that's what you're thinking. People are, normally we encourage parents, especially now during this time, we encourage parents, know who they're hanging out with, know what they're doing, know what they're doing on their phones. For example, even there's online radicalization, which is so rampant. Yes. And I love what you've said there, because that's actually what I want us to touch on. As I said earlier, you are at home and you've seen somebody, all of a sudden they are making headlines, person of interest, and you never knew that they were actually there. So how can we, the common man, be able to distinguish and pick out that there's something going on with this child, with this guy, there is something wrong here. Is it possible for somebody to notice it, and how can they notice it? Let me come to you, then I come to you, Hannah. Terrorism doesn't have a face. What I mean by that is, I cannot speculate that somebody is a terrorist. It's observation. You observe change, change in character. For example, if I could see my friend hypothetically, I see my friend on TV, and he is now a wanted terrorist, there are signs to where it led to him being a terrorist. For example, he used to watch TV, now apparently it's haram. Maybe he's... What do you mean by haram? Like it's not acceptable. Like you're getting so much influence from the West, and you forget what you've been taught by. Changing behavior. Exactly, it's changing behavior. So it's like a process. You're indoctrinated into it. So there are things you used to do. One, you could also say that being excluded from society. You are once this person who was very vocal. Now you're shining out of... You're not accepting things that society are doing. You're not accepting maybe even politics. You're saying it's a waste of time. So it's drastic change in character, but it's also a process. By the time you're getting there to be a terrorist, you have come from different certain stages. Yes. But then you have to be really close to somebody to be able to notice these changes. True. Okay, let me get from you. How do you pick it up? We call them the early signs of radicalization. So it is easy to identify them. Especially for us women, it is very easy to identify things like behavioral changes in your children, husband or boyfriend. Someone like Mike cannot... We don't know what to do. For him, identifying behavioral changes in a woman and a guy or something like that. That's what I'm wondering. Because you must be really close to somebody. Because with terrorism, radicalization is a learning process, as Mike has said. You start learning. You start learning. You start learning. You start learning. You start learning. And you're like, yeah, this makes sense. They will give you a problem and a solution. And then at that time, you're just learning and adopting these views, these ideologies of theirs. You start separating from people who are once your childhood friends, who don't know anymore. Things used to do. You stopped doing them just because... In a process, you start adopting these views and people who are close to you, even your community. When you're footballing, of course people are going to see you and say, hey, I'm going to play football. I'm going to learn. But the thing is, it is their role to intervene, to learn and learn. It's the best way to do it. Because people don't actually care about what's happening with theirs. That's the problem with us now. We have to learn. Because we have to. We have to learn. Because we have to learn. Because we have to learn. We have to learn. You are going to hear your neighbor like attack you on the way, laugh at you, and then you will like yourself. No. Even if you go and make a report, my neighbors will attack you last night. If you see something suspicious, if you hear anything suspicious, say something. And in the end, Lord Vosment, and later he or the DCI, I have to go to DCI. Yeah, yeah. It's on Twitter. And he will say, I'm not sleeping. What I'm going to report is V2. We have to create like a whole mass awareness of issues that are affecting us. On matters of terrorism, that awareness that we have to learn what's going on in the house, what's going on in the house. But you don't know. Let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement let the law enforcement you need to know what this child is being taught. For example, you've left it in the hands of these people, these educators, to actually educate your children. Even in Sunday school, you could find children are being taught the wrong thing and then they adopt to it. Then another thing, in a child's mind, it's very malleable. It's like a sponge. You can shape it the way you want. But then the child at some point complains that you're overprotective in their case. They'd rather report that you're overprotective and overbearing, but you save them from so many harsh realities of life. So follow up. It's following up. Be involved in your child's life. In fact, even in marriage, know what your wife is doing. Know what your husband is doing. It could be that close. Wow. So even a spouse can be inducted. Exactly. They've even tried to lure you into the violent extremist groups. Now let's look at the different areas that such things are prone. Do you have any specific area that they normally target when it comes to radicalization and extremism? Where do they go to when they want to know that we want to recruit? I don't know if they have their season of recruiting. What they do is target vulnerabilities. For example, they will come to you just like a fascist. They'll come to you and say, oh, you don't have money or you don't have a job or look at what your government is doing. So at that time, they're trying to plant a seed in you of hate and exclusion. Exactly. Until some people actually duped into it. You find yourself in a certain group and you didn't know. And you didn't even, you didn't find out what this person does, who he is. He's just come with gifts. And it's, and those gifts are just for that time. By the time you're getting to maybe being in Al Shabab, you'll find out that there are no gifts. There's no money. There is no, basically there are no prizes. The only prize, the only prize that is there in joining violent extremist groups is death. That's the end game. And so they target vulnerabilities. For example, another example could be conflict prone areas. And for example, in Somalia, that's where you'll find them there. For example, even in Congo, you'll find groups like ISIS have already started coming in. Yes. And vulnerabilities are what they target the most. But then how do they pick out who is vulnerable and who is not? I'm really interested in finding out their targets. And because, is it a one-on-one thing? Is it a group thing? How do they do it? In the past, during the time of Makaburi and Rogo, normal madrasas, but then there are special madrasas where they actually radicalize young people. And many young people were unfortunately recruited with Al Shabab using Makaburi and Rogo. But then nowadays, there's even like online radicalization, which is rampant. There are so many like these WhatsApp groups. There are so many and sometimes you don't even know what people are doing or what they are talking about. But then when it comes to now the recruitment process, they are going to study your vulnerability. Like you as Ram, what are your issues, what are your insecurities? You want a big car? That is what we want. That is what we are going to promise you. You want a job that pays you 300 million? That is what they are going to promise you. But unfortunately, they will never give you that. They are going to make you believe that what you are going to do for them is going to give you that and minimize it. And now what we do as a community, what we do as a family, we have to come in between and intervene. You have to see these signs and know like, it's like when a child comes to you with a gift. He will say, it's like when you are six year old. No. Like when you are 14 years old. You will be like that. It's like the child is too old to be so concerned. The child will be like that. That is what we want. Is it like a bribe? I see what traction do ones have when I come and I provide the idea that false hope at them who can take care of you, they will look after you, they will look for you. Especially even in our teenage years, you want that identity. You want to talk about WhatsApp, you want to talk about WhatsApp, you want to talk about Snapchat, you want to talk about anything. And if your parent cannot provide that for you, there is something that you can do. You can say, by the way, I want to send you a message because I have a problem with my blood. Send me a message, I want to communicate text. What is your life like in your home? Of course there is a catch. There is a catch. And where comes a guardian of that child? Where come a community leader? Where come a religious figure to that child? I am interested also in finding out because we are talking about how to notice it from our people. And you are saying they always target the vulnerable. And we should notice when there is a change in pattern. But now when it comes to vulnerability, the society has different classes of people. We have those from the high end and of course the other side. Can the reach also be radicalized? Yes, the vulnerabilities are relative to individuals. And that's why in the process of radicalization, you classify them into two parts. There are push factors which drive you into radicalization. And there are pull factors which attract you to be radicalized. Okay, let's divide these two. Push and pull. Push and pull. So push factors are things like let's say something that would drive you into radicalization would be something like maybe employment. So you are seeking employment. Then pull factor would be you are seeking a sense of belonging. You seem like maybe society is not feeling the way you are feeling. So these guys come to you and say you know what, we have a brotherhood. They call it a brotherhood. And then you start saying I have found somebody who feels exactly how to understand me. I have a sense of belonging when I go there. So that's how they attract you. They attract you into it. But you might find out that what you are trying to seek or what they were selling to you is not it. So most individuals who join Al-Shabaab at some point get very disenchanted in terms of they were promised something. They go there and just they find something totally different. But these are now rich people. Now the rich be pulled into it. Yes, you identify with their ideologies, their extreme ideologies. For example, you know, we watch a lot of action movies. A lot. I think sometimes I do. And then maybe even to a child, action is really attractive. But when you go there and it's now action, this is reality. It's death. You want to change your mind, but it's kind of too late because you're already there. So maybe you're trying to seek ways in coming back to society again. So that's why you'll find their push factors and pull factors relative to individuals because what you need is maybe not what I need. Yes. And to add on to what Micah said, it's like the gap between the rich and the poor and the educated and not so educated. Nowadays terrorist groups are looking for people like doctors and engineers, people who are actually beneficial and they're going to be a asset to them. I think I watched too much movies. Chemists. Yes. Exactly, yes. You're going to be engineers. Even engineers. Engineers. You're going to be talking about engineers. The big boss comes with the money. I don't know what you're talking about. See what you're talking about just so much. You know you have the brains and probably the money. We're going to give your wife, we're going to build your house, we're going to do blah, blah, blah. And eventually, what we're going to do is, university students, to know that you're working a good job. That is what we saw when, unfortunately, during the attack here in the university. In Garisah, yes. 147 lives come from, coming from a person, from that region. So you are thinking. The other attackers, they were herders. They were communities where they didn't fail. If you think about those gaps, different tactics were used for both of them. If you think about those gaps, you're going to be talking about money, you're talking about me. Wow. You're talking about me. Probably I'm going to buy your helicopter and you're going to travel and cruise around the world. Does politics also play a role here? Politics. In terms of recruitment, you know. I think politics. Politics is a regime. They don't, like, westernization or that, yeah, that's what they call it, westernization. But cultures change to develop. We are not living like we were during like the pre-independence time. What will happen is, she communally, her heart, life was communal. But with westernization, with the age of social media and digital media, we can change. Of course things have changed over and over and over. Even our culture, even our beliefs. We can get better and better. If we don't adopt these changes, we can have every new change. If you get sick, you're told to go to the sick hall. You wait to get healed. You go to the, what they call them, these local doctors. Clinics. No, see, clinic. One of them is Kittambo. Medicine men. Go to a medicine man. Go see them. But stretch now, like, we have hospitals. Even groups like Al-Shabaab are going to attack these hospitals. Because we don't know, like, modern medicine is not good enough for... It's western, as they will call it. And it's not good enough. So that is why they attack such places. Because it's not good enough. They don't... But it's an idea. But it's not good enough. If you go to a medicine man, like, this is poison. They don't know what's going on. They don't know what's going on. Yes. I would go to your point on politics. The way politics would probably play a part in this, not directly, like, from a politician or anything. They target government. For example, Al-Shabaab have a problem with our government, because we are in their country. But we are in their country to protect our people from them. From their bad influences. Because you will find that their influences in... Sorry, their sympathizers. Al-Shabaab sympathizers in our country. And even there. So technically, they just don't like something the government is doing. Yes. They are against government. Now, in Somalia, Al-Shabaab think they have a divine calling to be the rulers. But we know in modern times, you have to hold elections. It's not by force. So that's how politics could play a part in it. Now, what do you do when you suspect that somebody could actually be radicalized? They are in the process of being radicalized. How do you raise an alarm there? The first step is once you identify the signs of a person who is being radicalized, you as an individual try to intervene. Try to come and go to that person and tell them, you know, I have noticed you're doing ABCD, which is not right. You used to do these, you used to be friends, and you're no longer associating with us. Then if they do not listen to you, escalate the issue. Go to their parents, go to their tour guardian, find a community leader so that they can approach it from there. If that is not working, like, keep moving and trying this soft approach that you want to try and mold him and pull him back so that he can relearn the proper ways of society. Out of power? Out of power. How do you know that you are being radicalized? How do you know that you are being radicalized? You know, when I was at home, I was at home with my friends, and they said, you know, I'm not being radicalized, I'm not being radicalized, I'm not being radicalized, but I'm thankful that I'm being radicalized because I'm a part of being radicalized, I'm being noticed. So you've used that approach, of course, because you know, you know, you can intervene, you can talk or be radicalized, but you know, you can talk or be radicalized. And this is a ladies and gentlemen, this particular conversation is very important, and if you really look at your society and your neighbor, where you're from, you will realize that it's actually happening right under your nose. So if at all you have any questions in regards to this particular issue here, ask them. We are here to answer your questions. And of course, the hashtag is Power Talk Show at Ram Maguko, that Y254 Channel. There are no questions about this particular issue because it's happening right under your nose and you don't know it, okay? So coming to you, what do you do? You realize somebody is being recruited, how do you raise their arms? She said, go to some person of authority, a parent, a guardian, somebody who you feel can keep them or can keep them accountable. Send you. It's now, as radicalization is a process, the opposite is also a process. This person now has come into terms with ideologies that are not acceptable in society, well, in the larger society, because even them, they have a society. So you try and bring them back, to bring them back home, I would say bring them back home, talk to people of authority. If now, by the time you're trying these soft approaches and they don't work, now that's when now the law enforcers come in. Like the police? Yes, like the police, because one of the people that are very dangerous in society are violent extremist sympathizers because they don't even have to go to Somalia to fight or anything like that. They can recruit others. And that is why people like Al-Shabaab target the youth. But now, Mike and Hannah, I love what you guys are saying. And it is very good, it's very good, splendid. But there are some people, some parents or some guidance will say, nimesh kia umengia kuaikundi unalala kwa sel leo. You know, the parents, and they will tell you kua nyu ba nani, and they will take that person to the police immediately, which I feel can make things worse. That is why now you're talking to them, you're telling them, look, I need you to understand this situation. You cannot approach it with an iron fist. Cannot? Yes, because you're drawing them farther. So you need to actually talk to them as a person that you love and tell them, okay, I don't know how you ended up here, but I need you to let me understand. You say you're not in a fujo. Yes, I'm not in a fujo. I'm not in a fujo. The thing is, by the time this person has been radicalized, he's angry now. He's angry because maybe he's angry, government is angry, society is angry at other Muslims who are not accepting this ideology, this extremist ideology. So you need to really, really come at a slow pace so that you make him understand that religion is not murder. Yes? Yes? And I love the fact that you're saying it doesn't need an iron fist. Some parents who must get in touch with you first things first, you need to talk to them. I want to take a short break. I want to take a short break. And then we'll be back. After this break, I want to find out, now that you've realized somebody has been radicalized, they are already in. They are inside. How can you remove them? Because something is happening. How can you remove them from it? And how can somebody who's already in these terror groups come out? Is it possible? Can it be life-threatening? And of course, these are coming up after this particular break in a bit. Keep the hashtag going. The hashtag is Power Talk Show on Twitter at Ram Aguco and that Y254 channel. We're taking a short break. We'll be back in a bit. Y254, Imad. This is Power Talk. My name is Ram Aguco. If you're just joining us, we are just now for the next part of this morning conversation. We are talking about countering violent extremism and radicalization. Let me just get to Facebook on our page and see what... Just sample a few of your feedback. I see this is... ...watching live from Muembe show Ecomoto, Samuel Ngugi and Kaiole Naivasha, watching... ...enjoying the show. And then Jacob and Samuel, we don't care about these things. We do need to care. And that's why we need to talk about it. That's why we need to cover this particular kind of aversion because actually, you know, many people don't care about these things. Don't care about this things. And I would say, the message you're giving to us is that what we're doing is something that is there. That is something you're giving to us. And if we're giving to you, how do you raise awareness? How do we stop it from happening? How? How do we stop it? How do we stop it? How do we stop it? How do we stop it? How do we stop it? How do we stop it? How do we stop it? How do we stop it? It's a very topic in our approach and we are thinking that you are going to offend their mama or target her. But time has come for us to speak out. Time has come for us to stand up for what we, for our rights and for our freedoms. Because we need to talk about these things. It's true. I think we need to care. We need to care because you need to be your brother's keeper. You need to be your sister's keeper. It could be your mother, it could be your father, you know. So you need to care. You need to care. Yes. And that's why we need to talk about this particular conversation, counting violent extremism and radicalization. The hashtag is Power Talk Show at Ramaguko and at Y254 channel. Engage, weather skip, letting us know where you're reaching us from. Okay, so ladies and gentlemen, I want us to move to the next part of this conversation. But before that, we were talking about what to do when you realize somebody is being recruited into it. Mama just finalized on that particular part. What if it is your partner? Because we touched on a child, send her. And we said you should not be violent of them, don't go with an iron fist. What if it is your fellow partner or an agement of some sort? What do you do? When it comes to our peers, there are ways you can actually approach them, whether a romantic partner or whether just a friend. So the way to approach this is by now, as you are trying to move them from their negative beliefs, you want them to see what is better and what society and what life has to offer for them. The hopelessness that they have, the vulnerability that made them join these groups, you want to address it from the root cause. Let them make you understand what happened, what led me to do this, what is leading me to do this and ask them what can I do to help. But then again, I'm asking myself this, many will go with the approach of victimization. You say, you start by trying to understand why they join and then now start breaking down these ideologies that they have, these ideologies that they have started picking up and start telling them, do you really think mother is allowed in religion? Because, for example, you've joined Al-Shabaab, hypothetically you've joined Al-Shabaab and now they're telling you to kill people. What religion will tell you to kill, honestly? That's how you start now trying to bring them back to goodness, basically. Because it's some twisted belief. Yeah, it's twisted. Basically what they do, what Al-Shabaab does is twist a religion of peace, which is Islam, and make it something so hateful and what they do, because when they start recruiting you like we had talked earlier, they will target your weaknesses and not everybody has your weakness. I could have a certain weakness, so they start channeling into that. So you need to just slowly explain to them that the ideologies that you're picking up are really not for the good of society. I love that. I want us to move to the next thing. You have a point to add before we move to the next thing? I want us to move to the next thing and we talk about somebody who has now already been recruited. They are in and I don't know if they have the, they do have their own regalia. Yeah, they have their own regalia that they wear, mostly robbed, mostly stolen. That is what they dress in, but then they have their... They don't have any from, they steal from other security forces agencies. Yes. Like normally Al-Shabaab, they have like a red bandana and with writings on it. They have a flag, by the way. They have a flag? They have a flag. It's a black with writings, white writings, Arabic writings. So that's basically, every time you see a propaganda video made by extremist groups, that's how you identify them with. They have a certain flag. That's how you identify them with. All right. Now, so when we are... Okay. Somebody's in. And of course, what you said is just one particular group. There are so many other groups that exist. Yes. Terror groups. Yes. Not just Al-Shabaab. We have Al-Shabaab. We have ISIS. We have Boko Haram. Boko Haram. No, there's so many. Yes. Not just Al-Shabaab. We have Al-Shabaab. We have ISIS. We have Boko Haram. Boko Haram. No, there's so many. Somebody's already in. Is it possible for them to come out? And how can that be done? Yes. It is possible. Many people have defected from these groups. They have stopped associating and have run away and denounced their membership to Al-Shabaab. In cases in Kenya, in Kenya in particular, the government has some amnesty programs. There are NGOs which are running amnesty programs for ex Al-Shabaab militants. We see them based in urban centers. But then they operate, when they are in operation, they reintegrate those members to come back to society life. We have worked with groups. We do these. This is a group in Majengo we work with. We see we have all been affected by terrorism. My children and I have been affected by terrorism. Things of this sort. But now, there are people who are affected by terrorism. But that was not the end of me. I had to move on. I have other children. I have to take care of them. So what do I do? We do the work together. Through that morning, we have been rescued. We have been recruited. We have been first recruited. We have been recruited. We have been radicalized. We have been trained. What they experience are sometimes like... Especially for women, when they are working, they are not allowed to shoot. Because they are always firing guns and shootings. It's just nightmares. The trauma is real. The trauma is real. But they need psychological counseling. And now these groups, like the ones we work with, they have that support system. They will give you counseling. They will reintegrate you. They are going to give you... What I could train once, these skills are just one source of living. And through that, people have been able to... At the same time, some of these groups, like the ones we work with, will be able to join. If they join, they will say, they will reintegrate you. But they don't look for you again. It's like you joined us. And now you are leaving us. So you have to look for you. Because you are a traitor. They would say that. They would... By defecting, they would call you a traitor. But... Think about it. What they sold you at the first time is not what you went and got. So you've been lied to. You'd rather escape the... You'd rather escape death and come and earn the little that you can and still save so many lives and still live with a society that will love you and appreciate you. Now, can somebody who is not in these terror groups remove somebody who is in terror groups? Yes, they can, actually. We have seen people intervene. Like, there was a woman who worked through it. Yes, Alieza, who intervened. I don't know if it's true or not. You know, Alieza called and asked if it's true or not. How are they sure? You know, even the... It was the brother to this boy. Who told the mum? Mum? Yes. I told her, I'm going to the police station to report missing person. I told her, that one is not working. I told the police station to report missing person. I told her, that one is not working. I told her, that one is not working. Is it true? Yes. You know, when you're in infants, you've not grown and developed. So, it is easy to place you. Yes. I told her, that one is not working. So what this woman did, she went to the school to report missing person. I told her, that one is not working. So now, the woman was able to save her child. Of course, there are so many commentaries like in Majengo. You know, come back, we love you. You have to... That is how you mitigate the situation. Do what is possible. You have to report as early as possible. You have to intervene because it is difficult. If you are not working, you can't do what you have to do. If you are not working, you can't do what you have to do. You can't do what you have to do. They cover your face? Not necessarily. But they're going to confuse you. But I don't know if you can move around here, here, like even in the centers of like casting video, they confuse you. They confuse you. So that when they take you there, you cannot... Wow. And Mike, I love this conversation. It's interesting. It's an eye-opener to many of us. Before... I want us to move to the next thing. What is our role as the public? We've come from the family level. We have distinguished everything now. What is our role as the public? And including media. When it comes to this particular fight against extremism and radicalization. Let me start with you, Mike. I'll start with the media. Basically, like what we're doing here is making terrorism aware to the public. This is real. This can happen to anybody that you know. In terms of public, for, you know, if you see a certain bug that is left in the middle of town unattended to, you need to get the nearest police and find out what this is. It could be an explosive. So that's the role of media. The role of the public. Maintaining vigilance at all times. As media, you actually make aware this. For example, the person who said during said we don't care. You should care. You should care because it could affect anybody. Westgate affected so many people. Ducit too affected so many people. So you can't say we don't care. It's actually here with us. And it needs to be prevented and countered. Yeah, yes. To add on to what Mike has said, the role of media as he has said is to raise awareness and create awareness as we can. Not only when terrorist attacks happen. Not only when, but even before, during, like what we are doing now, nothing has happened. There is no terror attack. But we need to keep this conversation going in our media and in all the platforms, in all the mass media platforms and social media platforms. That way people are going to know how to respond during the early warning signs of somebody who has been radicalised. They are going to identify what might happen and how can you do how can you mitigate to it. If you see something suspicious, they are going to be able to, the media is going to be able to raise that kind of awareness where people are going to be willing to report suspicious activities. Because the media what on your match or like the local people everybody matches the security unless a terrorist attack hits you and you are probably dead. And unfortunately if you do not know what is going to happen. Kerubo Ombesa is asking are there women taking part in this? Yes. That is why we are here. I am the organiser for women against terrorism. Lengah who guided and talented Yes. You will tell us about what that thing is all about. And then we have women against terrorism. Let's start with that because that is connected to the question of our viewer. Women, they get involved in this. In the recent past Alshambam has been recruiting women to people, security agencies women are very less suspected. The second thing you did for the security check was to do with Director Peter. And that is And to that I want you to be aware. I'm Peter Tunaio. Women carry heavy bags. Women are trained in this department. What is the something you are going to do? I think it is something I am going to be involved in. I will be brand new. What is women against terrorism all about this particular organization? Women against terrorism is We are targeting and raising awareness for women to prevent and be on the forefront to prevent terrorism and violent extremism. And how we are doing that is we are creating programs. We are encouraging women to speak out and observe and be the first line of defense. As a woman, as a mother, it is easy for you to spot these signs. So before that happens, before my daughter was a rickali, that is over 18, where were you, your role as a woman? You were with the right virtues, with the right values for society, with love for humanity. By the time you were 18, you could differentiate between what is right and wrong. Because women play a role. We can prevent this from happening. We are very capable. Unfortunately, the power of women has always been under looked especially in terrorism. Before the government is going to deal with security agencies, because they are fully blown terrorists, watch us as women to prevent, we shut down that pool of recruitment for these terrorist groups. Come on out to recruit, the group is going to dwindle, to die down polypally. Exactly. Lengu Guiding and Talanta. What is that all about? Lengu Guiding and Talanta is a program by Epukko Guiding Organization, where we just make terrorism and violent extremism aware to the youth, because youth are the most susceptible to violent extremism. What we do in this program is we have a competition, a competition where we give you a certain topic, for example, individual responsibility against violent extremism. So what we do is we encourage submissions, submissions in terms of you make a short film, that is five minutes. You can also make a music video, which should be more than five minutes. And we also encourage spoken word and poetry, which also shouldn't be more than five minutes. So if you take that topic and turn it into a film, so depending on who caught the topic most or best is the one who is going to win. And we have been there for five seasons and we've actually made an impact in society. So that is why the camera is actually basically when you are submitting a certain thing you've done, film, music video, it should be accompanied with video. So that at least when somebody sees it on social media, they could relate to it and be like, wow, this is actually happening. I should actually even make one of mine and submit. Do you also make videos as an epic or guiding? Yes, to sensitize you. So yes, if you go to our Twitter handle, you'll find so many videos that are encouraging youth to be always vigilant against violent extremism. Yes, and do women also take part in it? Yes they do. Do you have partnership because I'm seeing Lengau Guide in Atlanta, women against terrorism, yet all under Ipukau Guaidi, how do you synchronize them together? Our projects and activities at Ipukau Guaidi are target based. For women against terrorism, we are only targeting women. For Lengau Guaidi in Atlanta, we target the youth aged between 18 to 35. And then under 12, we have a program called Next Gen. So that way we create now, as he said, there are some short videos, we do documentaries, we do some films, all meant to raise awareness against terrorism and violent extremism. All right. All meant to raise awareness against terrorism and violent extremism. And now for us as Ipukau Guaidi, we encourage as many submissions as possible. For this year alone, we were targeting the Horn of Africa region. And fortunately we got submissions everywhere. It was targeting Kenya, Somalia, Uganda, Ethiopia and Djibouti. And they all participated because this terrorism has affected all these countries. So what do we do? We need to raise regional awareness because it's the same group that is attacking. We need to raise awareness in all these five countries so that we can fight it together. All right. Thank you so much. And of course, a big thanks to each and every one of you that tuned in today. I want us to just look at more feedback. I'm seeing Nancy and Nassima enjoying the show, loving this particular conversation. It's an eye-opener. I want to be very big thanks to Nangunuwa. This is Mark and Nassima enjoying the show, watching it in dressing conversation. This is Rono and Nassima, I love the show, Rono Keeps El Alfonso. Nassima enjoying the show. Thank you so much. Thank you so much to Edu Qua'e, Quan Chase Boy. People love interesting names online. You do you. Thank you so much for coming. Nassima Nassima. Thank you for having us. How can we go find on social media? For find us on social media, go to our website. It is at epukogaidii.com. We are there. We are on all social media platforms, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. And also, if you want to reach us, call us through the number 0770 886 246. Say it again. 0770 886 246. Call us, SMS us, if you have programs, if you have projects you want us to partner in, we will be there. Because we need to work together so that we can be able to address terrorism and violent extremism. Michael, 20 seconds. Have a final word in the cast with this particular conversation. Public maintenance vigilance. Maintenance vigilance at all times. If you see something suspicious, say something. That is Michael, of course, helping us in this particular conversation on fighting violent extremism and terrorism. Michael Kimondo and Hannah Mukami from Women Against Terrorism. And of course, Lengau Guide in Atlanta to My Extreme Ride. Thank you so much for coming and keep doing what you're doing. That brings us to the end of this conversation right here on Power Talk. And as always, I would like to end with a quote. And this is a quote by Majid Nawaz. Of course, he said, and I quote, I believe that preventing radicalization is far more efficient than de-radicalization. Meaning, stopping someone joining is a lot easier than trying to pull someone out once they have joined. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Power Talk. My name is Ram Magukko. Let's be vigilant. Let's fight radicalization and extremism. Right here on Power Talk, I would say thank you so much to each and every person that ensured this show was a success. I repeat, all this show again airs tonight at 10 p.m. May God bless you. May God bless the work of your hands. My name is Ram Magukko and this is Power Talk.