 And we're alive here. I was gonna hold up books and I was like I realized I did not bring any of them over here But we are here to talk about the tawny man trilogy by Ms. Robin Hobb. What's her real name Megan something Megan Lenders? Snorter and is that her real name or is that another nom de plume? I Your guess is as good as mine well Hello Hello, I don't think you've read these books or is it but okay? You can spoil yourself We can we can start non-spoiler and then like When yeah, but I don't think or is that will leave when we go to spoilers either Yeah, I think yeah, I don't know that that is her real name either We'll have to ask her bestie Georgia our Martin because you know we're so much tighter with him Well, we can look at the copyright Instead of actually talking about the books We're just gonna do a deep dive on the actual on like doxing Robin Hobbs. This is how I found When I was trying to figure out who Ruby Dixon was I went to the Library of Congress and I did some copyright research That's all you got to do Or you can just let the mystique of their you know the artist known as Robin Hobb Well, yeah, but if I want to read more Okay, Margaret is oh so Margaret is her real name and then Megan is then the Lindholm is real interesting Can Megan be a short? I mean I know that Peg is a short for Margaret is shortened for Margaret is Meg slash Megan short for Margaret I mean, I mean even if it's not actually it might be that's why that cuz maybe her family did say that even if that's not like an Actual typical nickname for that name I could see Meg being Also, I just realized that my boat I got the Trader Joe's Boba tea Oh, I bought that too, but I haven't tried it yet. It is this is my first time trying it It's amazing. I made it with oat milk, but I just realized that this is probably not good audio So I apologize. I'll try to Another live where I had leftover Boba and by leftover I mean like I had a little bit of liquid left But mostly I had the pearls left and I was like, I didn't think this through Just gonna make your chewing. I'm gonna say for a homemade kit 10 out of 10, this is very tasty At some point we're gonna start talking about the books I promise but like before they came out with a Boba kit, you know Trader Joe's released the brown sugar oat milk creamer and like the first time I used that I was like this tastes like Boba tea And I was like, I just need to get Boba and now they have Boba Well, that was my problem with it is I thought it was too sweet for what it was labeled as Like it was sweeter than I was expecting. Oh, I only ever put like a patinius dash whenever I added anything So he was like Yeah, maybe I just put too much in the first time I used it But it was it was like this is tasty, but I don't want this in my coffee But I'm happy I was only like Boba tea. I never yeah, I never cream my coffee But I do sometimes cream tea so then when I was I was making like vanilla black tea And I added like a tiny dash of the oat milk brown sugar Boba tea without the Boba. I could definitely see that being okay I'll take that under advisement and also now that I looked at like how much it cost to buy Boba like just the Pearls and I was like, oh, I'll just go buy Boba This doesn't seem actually cheaper But it's I don't know it was right there I got two kits of it because I wasn't sure if it was seasonal or not and I Know I'm gonna get a new product that they're trying out. Have you had their Boba ice creams the coffee one in the tea one? I haven't had it I want to say that I bought a pint of the coffee Boba at some point But I just let people have ice cream whenever they come over so I'm not sure if it's still there or not Yeah, I mean I buy ice creams all the time because I always want to try them And then I never eat them so that I just my every time my brother comes over he like eats an entire pint of ice cream So I'm like I buy them and try them and then give them Yeah, I don't I don't think you could have eaten this one because it was made with cow milk, but the Wild berry cheesecake Trader Joe's ice cream is a favorite of their seasonal offerings So I don't know that that would have appealed to me, but I was really sad that their ube ice cream was dairy. I Would have tried that. I would like to try the mochi. I've seen that they have the mochi version Yeah, they got ube for days today's coffee flavor pronounced coffee His the a gui boogie one from Bones coffee, which is like brownie mudslide Irish cream something or other They have such cute nightmare before Christmas flavors. I got it now. It's Oliver my Instagram I got them all actually I got them all the first time they posted them And I just was like this is extravagant or whatever and then I was so glad I did because they sold out immediately and I was like Well, the branding was very cute Anyway, so If I have enough drink that's Yeah, we did actually read the books we're not like it's not like a presentation in class where you're like I'm just gonna try to like shoot the breeze until the bell rings and be like I didn't end up having time to talk about the assignment. I know I just feel like we don't ever get to talk anymore, so We're just catching where there's always an assignment and we just talk about Trader Joe I know All right, yeah, I did it. I went back and re-listened to our messages because you know, it's we finished it Because I don't know how much I'm gonna remember but it might come back to you as we talk about it. I remember feelings Yeah, cuz like I thought I remember pretty well, but like let me go back and listen just in case and I was glad I did So I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah How do all these thoughts they were good thoughts Um, so yeah, I mean broad strokes before we dive into spoilers. I think we pretty much 100% agree In general terms that the first one was pretty good. The second one was really good. The third one was like We had problems with it the I think the second one was my second favorite hub to date Like I loved. What was it the golden fool? I never remember the names of golden fool the golden fool Definitely my favorite or second favorite of this trilogy second favorite hub overall First first one liked I think I liked it better than you did like I know you liked it better But I still think we thought that like that one wasn't as good as golden fool And then we definitely thought the third one was yeah, the third one to me had really high highs and really low lows So like I rated the first and the third the same I gave both of those four stars But like I felt like the third book had four point five star moments in it, but it also had like two star moments in it so That's why it felt more mixed fools Aaron might be one of the best titles in The whole series so far which like and I went back and listen to our messages. I was like, oh, yeah I forgot that I did not clock that fools Aaron is like The expression a fool Aaron because like it wasn't familiar with that expression But I was just like I'm so in the like mindset of this is the realm of the elderlings and the fool is not Just a fool a fool is a specific person And they did have an errand and like did not at all until I think it's dutiful in the third book It's like that would be a fools Aaron and I was like fools Aaron I I See what I mean It also took me like three or four years and I didn't notice it It was pointed out to me that there is an optical illusion on the covers of Six of Crows and Crooked Kingdom, and I was like there is Okay, I'll have to go look that up Like Six of Crows looks like the the wing of a of a crow, right? But then in between the feathers is the like outline of the buildings of Ketterdam Oh Okay, I'm not good at clocking hidden symbols like for some reason tiktok has started serving me like I don't want to get you demonetized Things that accidentally included Yahtzee symbolism hmm And I'll be looking and I'm like why I don't see it and then like once I see it. I'm like, oh Oh, yeah, but it's like failed graphic design where they didn't accidentally see that there was a Yahtzee little symbol in there, so Intentionally had this optical reason I was supposed to spot it and go how cool But I didn't see it just like with the cover of the original cover of Fireborn where it's the dragon and I was like Oh, it's a cover that looks like Soviet era dragon poster how cool and then when I expressed that I preferred this cover to the new covers everyone was like Yeah, because it had that cool optical illusion and I was like no I like it because it's a dragon on a Soviet era looking poster. What optical illusion? They're like, oh the wings of the dragon formed the like silhouettes of the characters and I was like Didn't notice that. Yeah, see these things go over my head. I'm just like, oh, it's pretty and then I just don't I don't look deep. I only see the primary image. I don't see the secondary image subtlety is not my strength It turns out in terms of like graphic or visual design unless I'm told specifically to look for it. I will not notice Exactly. This is why like also when I play apples to apples or prize cards against humanity My friends will always be like, oh, it's liana's turn. Whatever you put down make sure it's literal Otherwise should be like this doesn't make any sense Yes, I'm glad you know me. Yeah, that that is right Yeah, I hadn't quite thought about it that way, but yeah, that's true That makes sense Saying that that checks out It does indeed anyway Tawny man. Tawny man. Yeah, so it's I think we had we ended up having parallel feelings. Yeah, I think I just noticed your earrings. Well done Well a friend of mine gave me I mean if there's a time to wear them, this is it. I figure like this was the right moment so But yeah, I mean I definitely Because then again when I went back to the store message, I was like, yeah the first book when I first read it I was like this is Is like extremely well crafted fan fiction to me is how it reads is that like it feels like Oh, what if there was continuing adventures with these characters and like let's recap where they've been and like Let's see them all again. And I was like this just feels like like very extremely well executed fan fiction Like the what if there was a sequel that wasn't planned movie thing, you know, like that's what I felt like to me For me, it felt more just like a really cozy reintroduction Like it was just sort of like a really slow Bernie reintroduction to where our heroes have been I think seeing where the story ends up I Because I don't well that's what I was like and then the golden fool was great and then the third one was like fan fiction Yeah, fool's fate. I think Makes me like fools errand less because I think it undermines some of what I saw is the character growth in fits That we see in fools errand And then since I had initially had the fan fiction reaction then and in golden fool I was like, oh, I no longer feel that way. This feels like I'm properly in a realm of the elderlings book I'm in for this like I don't this isn't even good fan fiction. This is just feels like a realm of the elderlings book I'm here for this and then the end of fool's fate. I was like, no, this feels like fan fiction getting in feels like Not like it feels like wish fulfillment. It feels like not like a actual book It feel to me. It just feels like it didn't honor the growth that fits. I thought had had Which is what I really was liking about the tawny man trilogy um Well, it's interesting. Here's a question because I know everybody was like hyping us up for tawny man So that doesn't help Well, do you think it's the best of the of the three series we've read so far? I don't either I think you and I still hold our favorites too. Like the first is still my fave and the second is still your fave Yeah, but I still I think we both agree that the like you would say second fave then would be the first trilogy Because I would say that live ship would be my second fave right after the first Tawny man would be third I think that kind of a toss-up. I mean if you look at my ratings, I guess I would say I like tawny man better because I do I think I love the golden fool. I think that's a great book. So I think my love of that Probably would put this a little above Farce here, but they're they're kind of a toss-up to me like there's things I really like and things that I had more like I'm not sure about in both of them Maybe for me, I like tawny man even less because I do hold the first one So dear that like if it's doing something to undermine the first one which it does Then I take more issue with that. You know what I mean? Just like a continuation of live ship that would retroactively shit on live ship. You would take more personally Yeah, exactly. I I think that that it checks out and I mean I liked I actually liked how live ship was integrated into this one. So that probably also helped that like I liked I liked the fact of that happening And I think this when I was trying to review this Golden fool. I think what I was saying was this was the first book. It seems weird to say this, but it was the first book where I fully got how much people love fits Like it was the first book where I think I felt Emotionally connected to fits beyond just like tragedy porn of like, oh my god fits cannot catch a break and I feel awful for him Like I think I emotionally connected with him In a way that I think you probably did in the far seer trilogy. It was my first time emotionally connecting with him on that level. So Yeah I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I feel like we're already people love tawny man. Apparently we're like Missing something. I don't know Yeah, which is like I was just talking this morning with live patrons because we had a live chat about The buddy read we were doing and just about how like I mean in general like, you know I'm joking like kidding not kidding about how I have unpopular opinions. Like it is known But especially like very extremely recently Like Everyone hates persuasion. I thought it was fine Everyone loves sandman and I the borderline hate it Um, everyone says tawny man is the best and I'm like, it's the weakest one in my opinion And I'm like am I being gaslit is the world trolling me like I have literally the opposite You're not like other fans. That's that's really what it is And I just I keep being dumbfounded because I'm just like, are you watching the same thing I'm watching? Are you reading the same thing I'm reading? I don't understand how I have the literal opposite opinion Um Well, but yeah, I think it just maybe just comes down to what you like about robin hob in general Yeah, I can see it's a big payoff like tawny man is like a big like we get a lot of answers and like We have our first like traditional fantasy villain. I feel like in the in what is it bulls fate With what's her face the white witch the pale lady whatever her name is um So like I can see that there's a payoff in that trilogy But I don't know. It just wasn't Well, I mean people when I said too much for it. I don't know when I had a problem with um The ending of assassin's quest not giving me Like paying off all the things that had set up and what it did pay off it paid off like quite quickly And kind of rushedly and kind of like out of know weirdly Um, and so people like well the later books will give you more information and answer some of those questions So like now that I've read tawny man, I'm like well I am yes it did So like that still doesn't it can't change the experience of reading assassin's quest the first time feeling dissatisfied That simply is the way that that is but like I am Glad to have that those answers now So tawny man gave me that but honestly like if I had to speculate, of course We have people who could tell us in the chat if this is their favorite, but I would say like As much as I mean, I love Like reading about fits and reading about the fool and I think they're both really interesting characters and their relationship Is very interesting to me but for people who like ship them And like really are invested in the two of them being together I think this would be the trilogy that would like and like I enjoy reading about them because it's so complex and interesting But I don't feel that way about it. Yeah, like I really enjoy reading about it because I feel like we I don't know how many relationships. I've ever read that is quite like it Where it is romantic Textually But it's also platonic textually like it's such an interesting It has layers Yeah, it's so layered and so so it's I can see why someone would ship them. I don't but I love seeing them together like I love seeing Anytime they're on the page interacting. I'm into it. I think the majority of fan art is if it's in the fool Oh, well, yeah, I mean, is it gonna be a fucking molly like no Facebook ending. I think hobbin thinks that it is I Yeah, yeah, but um I agree with Ivan Um, hey a lady was a good villain, but I would love if she had a bigger role in farce here Yeah, she's alluded to but she doesn't really like exist. Yeah, I think that would have been really interesting like Four shadowing and robin hobb is so good at that. But then again, I don't think that she knew that this was My understanding is she didn't know this was gonna be what it was gonna be So when I was talking to my patients today, I was just talking about how like well leave it to me since I have the opposite opinion of everybody All the time apparently listen, I'm excited for my I'm really based on my track record. That'll be my favorite Well, I really loved all of the stuff in the rain wilds in live ship. Like that's some of my favorite stuff in that trilogy Um, I was interested to see some of that coming back in golden fool And I'm excited. I I don't know. I'd be interested to see why people don't like it And as interested and excited and enthusiastic as I am about just reading hobbin reading realm of the elderlings and after I mean, I mean tawny man was hyped and we saw how that went So like take it with a grain of salt But the last trilogy is also extremely hyped and people have said it's borderline grim dark Which like to me is like whoo that sounds great But that being said I can't help but feel since I already started to feel like this felt fan fictiony and like a Reunion episode and a continuation where there didn't need to be one kind of vibe Even if it's well done that I'm like, there's gonna be another trilogy of outfits in the full like Have we not like do we need to go back to that? Well, is there Like can you not write about dutiful and his life? Maybe? I don't know Yeah, also because From my understanding again, I might be wrong But my understanding is that what the trilogy we just read was supposed to be the end of fits and the full like that Was supposed to be the ending um so I think that if you don't already don't like that quality about tawny man I I share your trepidation that that might be the feeling of I don't know. I'm gonna try to keep my expectations pretty low for that because It is also pretty hyped and I love robin hob like I've never had a bad time in a robin hob book Yeah, it's on a separate scale. It's on a hob scale of like for hob. This wasn't great But like because compared to most other books, it's fantastic Yeah, yeah, I agree um So, I mean like in the beginning of fool's errand like not just that we're coming back to these characters because like that in and of itself You have the feeling that it could go that way But it doesn't necessarily have to but like the fact that like we got like a Where like where we've been in the meantime catch up from fits And then it almost feels like as because he's been by himself And then we have characters that are like showing up at the cabin to like kind of come back into the story And it feels feels like reunion episodes where that that actor now comes on to the set and everyone claps and cheers because like It's joey again. You know, he's back for the reunion Like when that's what it feels like when these characters were like coming in and I was like I appreciate If this was fanfiction how that would be what you'd want to do But like that's not what I read at robin hobbin before well Yeah, I mean, I don't know that that was my experience of it But like if that was yours, I could see that being frustrating or like Yeah, that wasn't quite how I felt about it, but I could see it Um, there's a second pov Interesting It would be interesting to get the full I don't I don't think I want to get but it's cold fits in the full So like if there's two povs I don't know. Maybe it's maybe it is dutiful or what's uh, maybe it's nettle So then why call it fits in the full next gen? Yeah, I do agree. I think it would have been I know we know that it doesn't follow dutiful or nettle I mean, I assume not anyway since it's the fits in the full series Well, I mean like they might be in it, but like that's not the it's not their books Like I think that would have been interesting Um There's just a lot of characters in there's new from the live ship books Like there's lots of a next gen characters that it could be about Yeah, which I would enjoy And then it could be so like not to this is the part of the live where I bring up Abercrombie But uh when he wrote the age of magisteriality and he did include characters from That would have been in the previous books Because they are either just still around or they are the parents of some of the main characters now And I would I found that and he was saying then that he also very much made an effort to make sure That you would have those characters there, but they would not overshadow Like it wouldn't be the luke skywalker overshadowing the new Supposed protagonists of your star wars films that you're like, but no one cares about them All you care about is showing me luke skywalker Like you're like he's overshadowing the protagonists because he's like the fan service old favorite So like yes, you have some old favorites in the new trilogy, but they're not overshadowing the new protagonist They're just also there because they naturally would be because this is their kid or like they are still there But so like if robin hobb like yes, it might still be around the fool might still be around And they might have an interesting part to play in what goes on but like past the torch and I have I mean I'm criticizing a series. I haven't even read yet, but I'm like Yeah, I I tend to agree because I think that the first series in a lot of ways I mean fits is obviously a main mover in it But it's really about the generation before him kind of like having their choices pay off I'm trying again. I'm trying to keep this not too spoiling But I think that's an interesting like he is a pawn in the previous generations games This trilogy it feels more like his gen's time And so it would be interesting if in the final one It's kind of more the energy of the next generation making their choices and having some of that payoff so Not that it's like strictly because you know dutiful is obviously a big player in tawny man and i'm not saying it's like strictly Like generation one generation two generation three, but I don't know, but it'll be interesting to see where she goes We don't know yet. We should like well, okay Yeah, maybe we should reserve judgment and not necessarily accurate in which case then I like take issue with the naming of the trilogy Yeah So we'll we'll see Yeah, there is his adopted son Yeah, I I did like some of the hap stuff, but I didn't quite know why There needed to be such strong parallelism between hap and fits when he was that age like I don't know really what is that trying to say is it like that we are doomed to make our parents mistakes like We are all I mean there was one another like terrible mistakes Yeah, there was some the conversation too though about like specifically for fits to have to realize that it's not his responsibility that like Uh, not that like that's not exactly what I mean But you know that like he can't prevent him from making those mistakes He has to let him make his own mistakes just as he made his own mistakes And that like he has to accept that that's going to happen and that he cannot Prevent it or protect them from that happening He just has to be there for it and support him as best as he can Because that's what he would have needed and did need and didn't necessarily get when he was that age So like what it was that he needed and didn't have fits should instead of preventing him from making the mistakes that fits made he should The thing he should correct is to be the thing Be there for him for his son in a way that he would have needed But when he was making those mistakes and didn't get Yeah Yeah, I can see that. Um All that to say hap is fine. I don't know that he's like one of my favorite parts of the tony man truly he's I think he's mainly there to be a foil and like a A A way for fits to work out his own baggage rather than a character Unto himself. Yeah, I I kind of agree with that And he's written by hob so of course he doesn't feel like a cardboard cat out but no no But like for instance, I find what's his name thick like way More interesting Yeah, I didn't know how I would feel about thick when he was introduced Oh somebody has a tiny eggplant and is trying to compensate It's been a very noisy day here in general like the number of car alarms that have been going off non-stop is is truly uh It's nirvana, but um Yeah, I was uh, not worried for saying because like hobo. Well, I was kind of worried Yeah, I was like Straight up scared, but I was like it's hob. So I'm like, yeah, you're usually good at like hand delicately handling delicate things. So I'm like, okay Let's see what you do with this and I ended up really really liking thick and and like unto him like himself and also just like how the other characters changed their relationships with him and how they Worked through their own assumptions about thick and like their own realizations as concerns him and I really really loving thick Yeah, and I think we know more about kind of The world and the magic through him in a way that I really enjoy Yeah Fitz knows he didn't listen to advice. So why would happen? um That fits becomes less of a main character in each of his trilogies I would say he's pretty main in this one He didn't seem less of a main character in this than he did in the farcier trilogy I would say that this one felt a little bit more of an ensemble piece than farcier did but I think some of that's just that Because Fitz is now fully an adult. He can actually like He has more interesting interactions. I think with other characters. So it feels a little bit more like polyphonic um Especially like in assassin's apprentice because he is a child like it is So in his point of view um That I think Yeah, I don't think he's less of a main character, but I could see maybe it feeling a little bit more like other characters had more screen time To me, I can see why you would say tawny man is more about the fool than about Fitz to me. It just feels like it's more That we Instead of the fool being a walk-on character that is an enigma that you're like I wonder about that guy and then you forget about it Like he's like a very central piece of the plot, but it's still About Fitz Fitz's emotional journey Fitz is a growing up Fitz's relationship with the fool Fitz's relationship with what he knows about the fool Fitz is reckoning with what happens to the fool It's still very like it's about Fitz and like anything to do with the fool is about how Fitz feels about what's happening with the fool I don't know if you like the trilogy is called tawny man. So there you go But it's not his perspective. It still fits his perspective No, I mean, I guess though if we were going to get like into the symbolism, I guess that Fitz is kind of john the Baptist and the fool is more like the christ figure betwixt them Um Except it is the other way around because like the fool is like you are the changer You are the catalyst. You are the one that can make things happen. And I'm just trying to make sure that you can So it's still about Fitz being the chosen one Well, but what happens to each of them? Yeah True It's not it's not a perfect analogy How dare her not make this an easter play all on the church of the rock. Oh no, oh no But um Yeah, I mean like yeah, the fool is obviously an important part of it. I just at no point did I Not think that this was Fitz's story. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah Fitz feels like less of a pawn in this one, which I enjoyed He has more agency. He gets so much more agency and I Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed that seeing him have that side Yeah, which might be part of what I Oh, no, go ahead I was gonna say that like I think you and I talked about this more when we read Golden fool and we didn't really talk about it that much after finishing fool's fate but the way that we um We realized that we were seeing chained through Fitz's child's eyes This whole time and how this at the same time that Fitz realizes that you know realizing your parents aren't god You know that we also simultaneously realized that oh like we also took, you know Chayed was you know, the Dumbledore figure that you're like, well, he says whatever he says is the wise good thing to do And you realize that like no, he's got his own pettiness. He's got his own blind His own blind spots his own He's not infallible and it's not that his limitations anymore But and when Fitz realizes that yeah, it's not it's not just that like always getting old This are some of that but it's also that like how much it must have been eating at him this literal entire time And I never realized it But he was probably harboring this bitterness and jealousy about not being you know being denied the skill his whole life That this didn't come out of nowhere that this isn't a sudden thing with him It's just suddenly become something that he has reason to speak about he's been bottling it up this whole time Because like it just wasn't an option and like now that it is an option He's realizing that well, he didn't just realize that he's mad about this like he's probably been mad about this his whole life And like how much has that Shaped how he decided to do things even if he didn't know that's why he was deciding to do things the way that he did like He's you know, he's imperfect Yeah well and I think Yeah, like having new a new perspective on Even just like coming back to these people and seeing who they are as different people whatever it is 16 years on Is this would we say this is we're in spoilers yet? Kind of um not kind of specific spoilers We've alluded to them So basically we're going for sure to talk about spoilers. We're not so far. We haven't gone to specific But yeah, yes, I guess the answer to that question is yes. Yeah um The fact that like Shade is a different person because it's been 16 years since Fitz interacted with him and like kettrican friends For example, I think is really an interesting like character in that framing because she Has had to be the queen and like has had to like run things and take care of dutiful and um You know Keep keep the ship running keep the train on time. I don't know whatever whatever metaphor already Very very I must be the sacrifice. They're like, yes. Yes, we know Yeah, like Yeah, exactly So it's like we do get a different perspective on her But it is like it's hard to parse out how much of that is like Okay, Fitz is fully a grown-ass man now versus also like it's been 16 years and people change over the course of 16 years um So I think that's interesting too, but also yeah being a person a grown-ass person then you realize that like Like you notice things about people you didn't notice before and you also have the perspective of having been in the place They are in because you never had a position of authority before So now you know how many times you've had to make tough decisions when you didn't know what the heck you were doing But you had a young person depending on you and you're like, oh, yeah, I'm like, yeah, they're not Yeah, they don't actually know what they're doing anymore Yeah, like when you become an adult and realize that nobody ever really thinks of themselves fully is We're all just waiting it Yeah, um, and like I don't know I do love Burke. I I don't love how Burke it's handled, but I love seeing him and like I don't know. I do feel like Fitz has like a deepened Like appreciation for what Burke did for him and who he was to him But I'm just at the same time an even greater resentment for how Birch or Burke or whichever way you're supposed to say yeah, I have no idea how to say Uh, how vehemently he was against the wit because like that. Okay. Yeah, the wit is I I'm gonna say I like the piebald prince novella. We read probably better than the first or third book in the tawny man trilogy I love that novella. I thought it was so interesting and like Totally recontextualizes the politics and the magic of the world um And if not recontextualizes certainly provides missing context for why the wit is so reviled like I accepted How you that it is you don't really need to explain to me that there's some kind of bigotry or some kind of Prejudice in your world and if you're saying it's to do with the wit You don't really need to explain to me why beast magic would at some point become vilified Like that checks out for me that people would be like, oh well, you're together with beasts Like you don't have to explain that to me Like I don't doubt that at some point that would become vilified But now we have actual reasoning for like an origin for that from that novella Yeah, it was really really good and like that coming home to roost in this I thought was really satisfying and Yeah, I really really liked that novella. It was also just like a different home for a novella than I would have guessed for this And I thought it would be a series Yeah, well, it was like a it felt like a fairytale kind of um And yeah, so if people have not read that novella, they definitely should But again, it's not a light read you're like, oh, it's a little bit in the world I was like, this is one of the darkest books in the entire realm. Oh my god, like E fantasy racism, E fantasy animal death content warnings for sure But also lesbianism, so that was kind of fun I don't know if I would describe anything of that book as fun, but Interesting a different a different layer something that I was glad you did Yeah, yeah But yeah, uh, there's just yeah I don't know like I've I've been able to pinpoint some reasons why I had this like fan fictiony feeling about it We're like other things that also could have done that didn't do that to me and I was glad because like uh, again the the leader first law series the second red rising trilogy like I think they both I think a lot of readers went into those series being like We'll read it But is this just gonna feel like a non-necessary sequel that you're doing for money? And like both of them took a lot of care to make sure they didn't feel though and I'm not saying robin hobb didn't put care into this and and whatever but like I had that feeling with these books and I didn't have that feeling with those other books So like I was disappointed to feel that way at all Yeah, I mean I I guess I just didn't quite have that experience, but I can see I can see the being yours like I think her actual writing just keeps getting better and better or like It continues to be amazing. So Even if the plot lines feel a little like I don't know like just on a page to page level. I'm enjoying the writing so much that I don't In general, it doesn't like spoil my impression of this the book as a whole Well, I think golden fool worked for me so so much better and I didn't have that feeling about it because like As contrasting with fools Aaron fools Aaron felt so much of like let's catch up. Let's remind you who the crew is Let's have reunion moments. Let's reminisce Let's like it was like all that and that all feels very like oh, yes Nostalgia. Oh, yes. Where have we been so far whereas golden fool was like, this is new. This is new relationship stuff This is new material. You have a new conflict. You have new politics like Now we're in a new story and this I'm here for was the first one felt very like You know like still kind of like living on the fumes of what was still left over from the end of farce here If that makes sense Yeah, it does. Sorry. I'm trying to I'm hunting for every last one of my bobas. Um Yeah, I mean that does make sense. Um But I think there it does um Oh, sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say what there if there's a story called words like coins Where does that fall in the chronology? Like can we read that yet? Should we have read that already? Oh, yeah, I have a book of her short stories. I haven't cracked it open though Um Oh, I forgot what I was saying. I don't remember if I must have not been that important I don't think fits is meant to be a prophet Or I think she's saying that she kind of sees this reverse not a prophet. Oh, yeah, apparently we can read the short story Okay, cool cool cool Is that let me grab that collection real quick Okay, I will entertain you while the book is being acquired Uh, a completely different character Uh hedge which dealing with pixies Okay, so are all of Are all of the books in here Are all the short stories in this one From so you can also read some of the stories in the inheritance Oh, okay, so this doesn't have all of them Because I guess it doesn't have that one that was just mentioned the coin. No, it's not I'm gonna have to look for that Somewhere else. Okay well Darn it another book I have to buy Rats I'm devastated And like not to once again like talk about a series of books that I've not yet read And and seem to have issues preemptively But um, like we said like when you read this these books you're like this feels like and I think we've confirmed that She pretty much meant this to be the end of the at least their story these characters And it feels very much that way and yet because I have heard so many people say that the end of the realm of the elderlings i.e the end if it's in the pool Um is such a like aha. Wow. This all comes together all of it makes sense now You know kind of a moment. Um, or you know if not a single moment that like that's the Feel at the end of the trilogy that you yeah now you know how all this fits together And now you want to go back and reread it because now you have like all of the info and it's going to recontextualize everything for you so like that's great and all but I also feel like It's weird about that Is that like an accident because like if this was kind of meant to be the end and then she kept writing Is it like did you realize you'd live stuff hanging and that you hadn't explained it and you're like Oh, I better write some more books and explain Well, but I don't think that's necessarily a knock because I don't know like I I was interviewing I've interviewed Nalini sing before and she's talked about her writing process is very sort of like Um, not like pantsing exactly, but just that she feels like she kind of lets the story go where it wants to go So it could be that she did kind of go back and read the way that it ended and felt like I feel like that there's more I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing No, I think more in terms of not that's not a bad thing at all to me It's more that like people are saying that like what you find out by the end of fits in the fool Makes you go back to assassin's apprentice and like all the way to the beginning of being like suddenly pieces of this makes sense now Suddenly pieces of this are explained I'm like that to me sounds like someone had a long game and was planting seeds all along that they planned to pay off But it doesn't I'm pretty sure they didn't because they wrote like they finished a trilogy. We're like, how about a run another trilogy How about a run another trilogy? Just like when did you start deciding to plant seeds? I feel like that's being a good reader of your own writing And that's a writer who has enough like richness and what they're putting on the page that it allows for further exploration or further like well And then this is where I think it not that like because you're friends with somebody that that means you have the Identical writing styles, but she and geordor martin are friends and like geordor martin I don't know if other people Called it this or if he himself called it this but that his approach to writing is the gardener approach Where you just kind of like you cultivate a lot of different? Yeah, exactly You kind of in their own ways And that means that like you may there may not actually this may never pay off and this may never go somewhere But you like planted some seeds and then we're like if they grow they grow and I will take advantage of it And if they die off then they die off and so like if she and is Employing a similar strategy to geordor martin except actually finishing her series Yeah, yeah except actually finishing it. Yeah, that that's kind of what I think and like I think what makes you a good writer is being able to see which of those seeds are growing Which of them aren't and remembering that you planted a seed like three acres away Well, that makes you a good writer if that is the strategy you're employing Like you can be a good writer and not be a gardener in your approach Yeah, yeah a total plotter and be a good writer, although not usually my favorite Yeah, that I guess that's what I mean of like people who aren't like there's some writers who go into a series And it's very clear that they're like we're starting here and here's where we're ending up And like these are the major beats we're gonna hit and I think those can be great series But I think just because somebody doesn't take that approach doesn't mean that they can't end up with a very satisfying series But they have to be good readers of their own Writing if that makes sense like they have to be able to like See what has happened and figure out like interesting ways to Move along what they've already put on the page because otherwise it feels unearned or just like Where did that come from or that doesn't make sense with what you did earlier and Yeah, I definitely feel like I've read some series where it felt like Okay, you didn't have a clear plan and a clear plan never came together So that's why this feels not very satisfying Kind of like those books that were published serially like, you know back in the olden days Well, I don't know. I think that that's a different kind of experience Yeah, but I feel like as a modern reader when you especially when you don't know or if you don't know That that's how these were being published and they were paid by the word and it can feel very much like Why did we spend all this time? Yeah You're like because maybe it would have been if it had been written all at once, but it wasn't so it's just still in there Yeah, I have a couple of authors. I really like who write serialized things for Like for their website kind of a thing and if they don't do some serious editing before it gets published Then it can feel like oh my gosh like this is a meandering mess like it's it's I guess it's fine but it's not great because it's just sort of like Quest of the day like I you know, I put up a new chapter every day. So here we go Jonathan says stumbles upon him. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I forgot. I planted that. Yeah. Yeah Should we get on into like full on spoilers? We've been having for 45 minutes without getting into like the meat and potatoes of what our I know I'm kind of proud like I'm impressed that we are able to do that But again, I think a lot of books that have a lot of thematic least wrong content. Yeah, I just do that with I agree. I mean we could we Sorry, go ahead Oh, I mean like we could probably talk for another two hours about like the themes without ever getting into a ton of Yeah, people might get spoiled vaguely and like I'm getting the feeling something kind of like this might possibly happen But like yeah, confirm Yeah anything But yeah, I think there's other books that like Not that it doesn't have great theming But I think the green bone saga it would be a lot harder to talk about without like this long without spoilers Because you're like I can tell you that she does a good job with things and that's about it And now I'm going to tell you all the specific times she did a great job Yeah, yeah, um Yeah, yeah Hob has a lot especially when it's a third series and a series of series Then you can even more like big picture broad strokes. What are some trends we're observing in her writing style? Um Yeah, I think there's a lot about like agents this series to me this trilogy in particular was a lot about agency Like it's about Fitz finding his agency about like is fate a thing the last one. It's called fool's fate, but How How much is his fate faded? um And like even just the whole premise of him being the catalyst and like someone who makes changes to things Uh, I think it's really interesting. So yeah And as always we have the recurring theme either because it's an intentional theme or because you know Writers tell on themselves based on what they write. You're like, I think this is an issue for you because it keeps coming up Your stories But the idea of like who are your parents? Who are your children? Is it who you really? Oh my gosh, who would take care of you? Is it? Yeah, you know your blood relation? Is it both? Is it neither? Robin hop is the anti agatha christie because ag the christie is so convinced that like blood will tell um and Robin hop is just like no Like it's the same time Like I've been so much of like how dutiful is like you weren't raised by Fitz But like you look kind of like him you have the wit from him like you have some you are his biological child because I still never got over the fact that they like swapped consciousness is Oh, yeah To create Robin hop sometimes does some weird weird things that was that sent me I I will never get over that. I'm just like what? What in the free friday Wait, what? That was some kinky fuckery It truly was I was like this is a lot and the way that everyone is like kind of okay with it And they it's not even one of those like we don't talk about it They're just like it was so noble that we did this thing and you're just like Yeah, that's one way to look at it. Yeah, that that is one way to look at it. That was a moment Oh my goodness, like I mean, I don't understand like I I find like how can Ketrick and Fitz ever like look each other in the eye anymore? Because Fitz wasn't there but he knows He knows but like he literally like Fitz Fitz is dutiful's father, but has never really seen Ketrick and naked when you think about it I know but if I knew that you know in reverse, you know that I was like I knew that my body had been used in his way and I wasn't mentally there for it But I still knew and I knew who I would be like I can't look in the eye because you've seen me naked Yeah, I will never get over it. I just it was when it happened. I had to like reread it like three times Yeah, I was not wrong It's also the same one in which we have Fitz and Molly, but it's not Fitz It's night eyes Oh, that's right Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, and that's I'll see you forget Yeah, of course here has some some kinky fuckery. Yeah Yeah, um Yeah, wow man Fitz thinks Ketrick and doesn't know It wasn't the dark right like she couldn't have properly seen but she she definitely knows Fitz is fooling himself if that's what he thinks like come on I don't know if that was meant to be a pun, but I once I said it it occurred to me, but that was not it wasn't intentional. Um Yeah, the night I oh, okay speaking of spoilers that did make me weep The death of night eyes and just like the Work because I we said we could talk about specific spoilers. Um, I just thought there was a comment about it No, no, no just talking about night eyes and this and specific spoilers in this series Like that really killed me and just like The reflection at the beginning of the golden fool about like what it means that night eyes is dead to Fitz and like All of that just destroyed me though I do love at the end like when he's processing the fact that night eyes died at the end of fool's errand The cat comes in And it's like pick up the cat. You will feel better That's the cat. I love that. I love that we get cat POV and this Yeah, I think it was good In golden fool. Maybe it was fool's fate. I think it was golden fool where he gets kicked out And the cat's like you just have to ask to be let back in he's like no I'm not welcome. He's like you have to ask like this and it stretches and like scratches at the door and it's like Just have to ask I guess that's like cat logic Like I swear how robin hum must be like dr. Do little because I swear she gets animal POV is like I can check the she's right Yeah, the cat like we can ask the cat community. Do you feel represented by robin hum? But I feel like if they could read and could speak they would say yes Yeah, then all fennel is great. Fennel is one of my my favorite characters in this new trilogy Just anytime fennel showed up. I was excited But I think I told you when we did You know when we were the first one and I was pretty down about it because of again the whole fan fiction thing But this isn't a fan fiction problem, but there were several times in the first one That you know we're being prepped for the fact that night eyes is pretty old and there's a I'm pretty sure at least twice Like one time where he comes near to death where I was pretty sure he was going to die and then he didn't And then a second time where he like does die and gets kind of brought back by the healing Um, and I was like ready for him to die then and he didn't so the button when he really did die in the book I had my I had already it was like the boy who cried wolf You know like I just didn't feel anything that much about it when he actually died because I had been like Oh boy, you're kind of wolf now Um, because you know what I mean like it's not like night eyes dying doesn't affect me But I already felt that I was tricked into feeling that way like getting my heart muscles ready Twice before yeah, but when it actually happened. I was like, look, I just you know, like I already felt this way Like I you shot it already like Well, I don't have like you shot your word too soon. I think it's because And I again, I'm terrible at remembering details here, but dutiful's animal Is killed before that Am I bringing it rightly? Yeah, so it may have also just been like a combination of an of tragic animal death Like I feel like it was also Like uh for you you're saying that increased how much it hurt you to see night eyes But I think it added to the decrease for me because like I had already like Preemptively felt to the death you had nothing left to die And then when I was like truly saddened by like, um because this did This cat did die and I truly felt the pain of this child and it was like fits and nosy all over again And I felt that and then to have night eyes die. I'm just like, okay. I know also grandpa died Okay, but like we just watched like a child lose his first animal And I've already like preemptively been sad about night eyes's death, which technically didn't happen yet But like now he's actually dead. I'm like, yeah, fucking finally. He's dead. Like we I'm pretty prepped for that great Yeah, I think it's awful because I wanted to be sad about it I think my general just sadness like is blending together my memory of reading That like part of the trilogy of just like there's a lot of sad I mean, it's not hard to make someone cry if you kill a beloved animal um And I cry because there was a lot of beloved animal death towards the end of Fool's errand in the beginning of the golden fool I think I felt because I for the aforementioned reasons I wasn't able to like get it up for night eyes's actual death But I think it's either at the end of fool's errand, but I think it's not I think it's in the beginning of golden fool where Uh things like fits is going through like knee-jerk reactions where he like reaches out for night eyes And he's not there because like it's just the instinct to do that And all of the realizations of how he'll never go hunt again and he'll And yeah asking him about it and being like stop asking me about it And like you don't know what it's like like stuff like that. I was like this is more than his actual death did Yeah, no that was at the beginning of the golden like Yeah, the beginning of the golden fool had him like processing it and that also killed me Killed me um Oh see you guys are so smart interesting connection Um Yeah, the other I'm trying to give other like notable spoilery things. I wanted to mention Um, well, I there's definitely like the entire end of the trilogy like I don't know if we're like holding off on that But like so much about So I don't like the I felt like bricks like Um, I'm sorry. He's what now Um, I didn't buy that I don't know it felt like a retcon Just think he had that much power that he could just like pull out of somewhere Am I remembering that rightly? You mean his wit power? Yeah, like it feels like it was like real has somebody ever done that before did I am I just not remembering it? It's like we know but I mean because we had like I think because to me like I was like well from the very beginning um In farce or night eyes referred to him as heart of the pack and it was already like he would singled out for like Like the animals were like no, he's he's like a big deal So I was like, you know, he's kind of got a deal Yeah, so I was like it checks out for me that he's been like suppressing like some kind of like insane wit ability Okay, okay. I felt it felt a little bit like a retcon to me, but you're you're selling me a little bit on it more Like I don't necessarily think she'd planned for that moment to ever happen But she had already alluded to him probably having like a pretty deep connection to the wit Yeah, I just it seemed to me that he was certainly witted, but I I guess not just witted though heart of the pack Yeah, that's a good point. Okay. You're kind of selling me on it a little bit more So maybe I'll give her a pass on that one. Um The thing I do not like is the molly fits Oh That's what most of our message is when I bed back and listen to almost all our messages are about that It's and it like honestly, I liked so many other things in that last book But I don't remember hardly any of it because I just was so unhappy with that Like that is my abiding memory of the book And that's my also like that's the note the trilogy ends on so when I think of talking about trilogy I think of that. I don't like it. It's like I Somebody told when I mentioned this in my review, like I didn't just like my month in wrap up non-spoilery. Somebody was saying It's not supposed to be a happy ending. He says he's content. Not that he's happy and like I can see that I think that's possibly maybe that's what she was trying to sell us on but it read to me Like we were supposed to be buying this as a happy ending for vets And it's not like it totally negates all of his character growth I feel like we've gotten in the tawny man trilogy, which is what I liked best In this trilogy was his character development and his character growth like I hate it if we were meant to leave with a feeling of like A happy ending by way of contentment Then there was a way to write it very similarly to how it was written But not the way that it was written where like they can co-parent they can begin each other's lives again They can you know have not a you know relationship, but a relationship where like we are Relationship Not a role in the hay where they're like oh the kids are home like no That's the stuff that makes me feel like I'm supposed to be buying it's like oh see It's like we're finally getting our chance to be together and it's like first love. No and I'm like well first of all like fuck berks drag I guess because like what he Molly did you not love your husband of nearly two decades fits? Are you just like Whatever berks stole my lady from me now. I'm getting to get back with her now that he's gone Like I don't like that. I don't believe that fits is correcting the timeline things as they should have been fits and molly together Bert you're never supposed to be here in the first place like yeah, I don't like it at all I'm like this would have been a happy ending for six, you know 19-year-old fits, but this is not a happy ending for 30 something fits And I just don't like molly. Is that okay? Am I allowed to say that? I don't I feel I like okay neighborhood trilogy, but I feel like I went I didn't I wasn't sure exactly how you felt because like I feel like I went harder on this In our voice messages about how like I felt that in general and molly is a big part of this But it's not the only one that towards the end of this trilogy I felt like there was just like a compounding of sexist depictions of females Where like the way molly was acting the way nettle was acting the way Some mainly the two of them Maybe there was someone else but like the way that they were reacting at the end Was very like cliche bitchy catty Well, you never considered my feelings and you never listened to me and what about what I want and you're like You're a grown-ass woman who's fully aware of the fact that yeah Maybe you're upset that you weren't allowed a choice in the matter But you also know that fits was in a horrible life or death situation where like he did the best he could No one knew he was alive like they had literally tried to kill him. He was resurrected like woman Like this isn't like a you just left me and like didn't ever call like that's not that's not the situation that it was Like get the fuck out of here Yeah, I I don't disagree with your Assessment of that it didn't impact me that way when I was reading it, but like when you say it I'm like, yeah that that is there. So I think that's a pretty valid reading Well, like molly was kind of that way when they were young and also nothing like that dramatic had happened yet Like, you know fits has his own problems. He's terrible at communicating that so like there's problems So terrible at any kind of communication So like yeah, like night, you know, however many years ago molly being like you're the worst and you don't understand And you never think of me and I'm like that's appropriate But she's like saying the same things now when she's a mother of six and she knows exactly why fits Disappeared and why she it's not like she doesn't know she does know Where he was and why it was a secret and the fact she's still reacting this way I was like did like it's like a time capsule molly that she's exactly who she was Back when she left. Yeah life. I'm like she shouldn't be it feels like she's not lived a life and she's lived a lot of life so And seem to understand her being rich Well, and I can even understand her being angry with fits like even if you rationally are like Yeah, I get why you did this like I can understand still having that emotion Um, but she doesn't feel like she's been a mother to six children And lost a beloved husband and thought she already lost the father of her first child Like she's experienced a lot of life and she reads like she's a petulant 18 year old exactly Exactly So I don't know that's why it was a compounding too where I was like so molly's doing this And then molly's daughter is doing this because I got so angry and I give it more like I have a little more patience for it because she is actually that yeah That didn't bother me really because she's so young But what bothered me was that the text didn't like Handle it better like the reaction to her behaving this way because like when she gets mad at fits Because she's like, you know, you say you want a relationship with me. You say, you know, you love me but you haven't even tried to talk to me and Fits like we all know that he was like, you know, like, well, you didn't want me to like you told me You didn't want me in your life And she was like, I wanted to see how hard you would try and which is such a bullshit thing to say And like okay, but she's such a mean kid. Yeah. Yeah, like it's so then like fits his response to that It should he's now learned to be a father through being around half He's supposed to have like kind of figured this out not perfectly But like his reaction to that is like, well, I just never knew how to talk to women Because I never was around women. I was raised by birch. That's his response to that instead of look I'm respecting your wishes. I love you and you told me you don't want me in your life And I will never force myself into your life. That would have been sure I will be Yeah, which is what he's supposed to be now. They both is what he's supposed to be by the time. Yeah Also, I think that's kind of bullshit that yeah It's kind of a bullshit reasoning too because wasn't burk like drowning and pussy Like isn't that kind of the implication in the first like he saw burk with women. It seemed like Or wait, no, no, no, maybe burk was keeping that from him because that was But he was like patience and then like the kitchen staff were like birch Yeah, yeah, that was right. I sorry. I forgot he like was kind of scandalized when he realized that burk Like a whole like side hustle on the side. Yeah um, okay, so I'll redact that but yeah, it felt like It feels like he's maybe and maybe they're just bad together Maybe we're gonna find that out in the next trilogy is like that they bring out the worst in each other And that they like regress when they're together the expert on the realm of the elderlings and dairy also doesn't like molly So I feel very like thank you dairy for validating her I feel bad like I don't want to dislike one of the I mean, I love a romance like I'm here for a happy endings, but it just doesn't feel like a happy ending Maybe that's why I it bothers me so much because like I'm here for Happily ever after and this is this my friend is no happily ever after this is like a The man is always content at the end of his He's just he's a content dude um Yeah, I this is an interesting point Yeah, that really in molly's time with birch. He must have kept some big secrets from her the entire marriage Kind of feels like more of a betrayal of trust than what fits did Um, but I also feel like this is a betrayal of birch's memory. How quickly they jump in this act together I think so too. And I mean, I don't I you know life is short. You got a You know life is for the living. I'm not saying that they can't move on um But it just felt real fast and it again like if it uh It was just the tone of it being like young kids who are like, oh, I can't keep our hands off each other Like that's the tone of it and like even if they had okay, so like I would prefer where they they are now You know, they've they've changed they've grown. They but they also have nettle in common They they did care about each other at once one time. They both cared about birch They have a lot to still bind them So if they were in each other's lives and if you even wanted to say They could find a way to having some kind of a romantic relationship again. Yeah, like a slow Table But yeah, that like maybe I think it would have been more successful to me if it had been like We're not going to have a romantic relationship. But like I want to be I promise birch. I would take care of his kids Like I want to be here for you guys like this is it's not just something I have to do It's something I want to do like I want to be there and and to You know be with you through this hard time. Okay Like I get that I think that would be lovely and like maybe at first molly is still really mad at him And she's like, I know I shouldn't be mad at you, but I am I can't help that but I appreciate that you're Which is fine time and like we're gonna grieve and like maybe we see some like hey six months later. They like Go to nettle school play. I don't know whatever it is that you're co-parenting together in the fantasy realm of the elderly And like maybe they find they're going to their killing recital Yeah, yeah, they're going to her skilling recital and they like find each other laughing and like making eye contact and then like a year later like You know they get drunk and and kiss or something like if you showed it like they would totally be a way for me to buy that like They were co-parenting together and that that eventually turned into an adult version of feelings But that is not to me Like what is communicated and that makes me sad because I I'm here to for them to have happy endings like and for her to find a way for these characters to be happy But it just didn't feel Earned and that makes me sad Yeah, again like we said how it felt like when like we really liked the idea of fits becoming whole again when he like When trauma that he like put into the like that he removed from himself once he reincorporates that into his being That he feels like a whole person again because you can't just take that part out of yourself And that he now feels whole again and that that does have a change in him But that doesn't mean he's now who he was the day that he rejected that trauma Now he doesn't revert to being 18 year old fits, which is kind of how it feels Yeah, it does. Oh, okay. Darry's correcting us that it does take over here. Okay. Maybe I just missed that and maybe should Maybe I'm just not okay, but it's not even the time It's for me. It's not even the timeline of it It's that we're rolling in the hay and oh no the kids are home And they can't catch us because we were like making love in the grass like it just feels very like Tee hee we're sneaking around like some young kids again. I just I Uh uh Yeah, I don't know I don't know. It just felt very immature And not like yeah, it just feels all this time. It doesn't feel lived in it doesn't feel earned And again, I don't like the implications throughout like forget. Okay, so they come back together and I Either it's super romantic immediately or maybe after some time or maybe never at all forget who cares But like the fact that when birch comes back and is like a molly would always have chosen you if not for what happened Which I never would have hate and then molly does basically act like yeah Well, you never gave me a choice and I'm super pissed that I didn't get to have a life with you because I had to live with Fucking birch like I hate that and I'm just like you're being pretty and bitchy and also screw you and like Birch is a fine figure of a man And you should consider yourself lucky that you got to go to sleep next to him For 16 years Well, the way that I had always thought of them together like from what we would hear about them and what the Glimpses fits would see of them and what always came to mind, you know to bring in robin hobbs bestie again is Is georgia, you know georgia martin's game of thrones? And I frankly don't remember if this line is actually in the book or not But it's definitely in the show and it's such a good line that like I really I hope it's in the book But I genuinely don't remember if it is But when catlin is trying to talk rob out of marrying the girl that he has like Uh a thing for as opposed to like the practical political marriage And she's like I was young once as well and like I know how you feel She's like and I didn't love your father ned stark, you know when we got married I didn't love him But we built a marriage together and it is stronger and it is more long lasting than like Yes, and I love him now and what we have together is more than what your little fling is like that Yes, he says it's strong. We built it and it's stronger and I was like that's molly and birch and then now to be all like fits his back No, you're okay. Also Dear dairy is reminding me the other thing that really bothered me about this ending which oh, yeah, which that he is I mean she should consider herself lucky that she got to make love to that man for A part of his narrow mindedness about the wit and driving his own son away. He's not the best about that Okay, and ye fantasy realm Nobody is the everybody's got problems Okay, you got to take the best of the you got to pick which problems you're going to live with The other point she makes is the regaining of his memories doesn't un-age him So much as giving back the same level of passion passion The unaight getting his memories back. I feel like this further cements my problem with the ending of liveship traders and althea Because the whole thing of like what gives her a happy ending is that she gets her memories taken away And now we're saying that in order for you to like live a full life. You have to get them back I I don't like I didn't like the althea getting her memories taken away and that just like Magicking her essay away from her and how that changed her I didn't like that And I don't like the idea that getting your memories back like restores you to your fault Like which is it? I'm sure that there's like some textual reason why they're two different scenarios, but like I didn't like the use of giving or taking away memories in either of those endings so like To stop messing with people's memories because I don't like I don't have a problem with it Unless and until you are telling me that that's supposed to be the solution Like the fact that someone would like someone fits decides to get rid of his memories If someone is like I can't deal with it I'm choosing to get rid of them like that a character It's an interesting character beat that you'd be like I totally buy that a character would be like this pain is too painful take it away I don't care and that like you might come to a realization later that like maybe I shouldn't have done that Like those are all valid character defeats to explore and be like well Is it better to forget or are you incomplete without or that's not like feels like yeah It feels like oh, but I'm telling you that like the way I'm coding this event is to say that this is a positive thing To have happened rather than an interesting plausible thing to have. Yes. Yes Um And yeah, I know the camera and saying which okay, but this is the pain but I don't mean but like yeah I don't buy. I mean, I just don't buy that I mean, I've I've experienced sexual violence and like maybe this is just part of why it like Really rubs me the wrong way, but I'm like, I think that this is fundamentally like not understanding or like I guess part of what's disappointing about it is that I feel like the way that she handles tenants Experience with sexual violence. I really actually like the way that all of that was played out And so it's disappointing to me for to then see A different character not in my opinion getting that treated well Well, and as we said like the real nail in the coffin on that is not only does it get magicked away But she's on the ship ship holds that The consciousness of her abuser Like like explain that one to me So you can tell me that taking the pain away is like, you know, is is medicinal magically medicinal But how is it medicinal to like live on your abuser? And It's not and it would be one thing if it was coded as like A complicated thing it's coded as a positive like Althea is now getting her happy ending amongst all these other happy endings at the end of this book and I'm like this is Maybe that's just my problem I want her to stop trying to code things as being happy to To make me feel less bad about the fact that she like rips my heart out in the rest of these books Just don't code it as being happy like code it as being neutral. Yeah. Yeah, I just So I I really I My my note to Robin Hobb if I may respectfully give it to her is to stop messing with people's memories because I'm not enjoying thematically Like what it's implying about your world And it's a sour note and otherwise When she does it in a more neutral way because like the way that memory shapes the Wood and the way that do we have a right to then make the wooden ships? But then the ships were their own personalities that were different from the worms that they were before Like that's very interesting and she never code. Yeah, he never says it's good or bad She never she just says it's complicated. Yes But if you had at any point taken aside on that then it would stop being great. Yeah Exactly. So yeah, I don't know anyway So that was the other part about the ending of this book that I didn't like was him getting his memories back I guess it would change who you were as a person But I like the person he was without his memories better than the person that he is with his memories Maybe that's the problem. I liked him better But I think like the problem isn't the fact that he got his memories back It's the fact that how she decided that how he would now how that Because the fact that he would maybe feel more whole and feel more complete and that that would change Like that his like that there would be a more fullness to him And that he would feel more connected to his own life in a way that he didn't before because he was kind of like Numbed to it like that all checks out. But the fact that he's like Young and lusty and back with Molly again. I'm like, that's not what I know. That's not the result of that No, like I would have it would have been interesting for to like it I don't know. Maybe it's just that she didn't have enough time to explore it at the end of the book And this is just sort of like that. I'm like then don't introduce it and we don't need a quick little hasty happy ending like Yeah, I like I would be interested to see those like him not numbed out to life But with the experiences that he's had since then like really Trying to meld those two. I think could have been interesting, but that doesn't really it's like oh Royal assassin fits his back And it's like no, I don't I don't want that fits back That doesn't make any sense either because then like then then it's not even that you've become whole again You've just traded out like who every all the growing you did now that's gone and instead you've put back the thing you lost Previously, so it's just like a trade. It's not even like adding back in the piece that was missing now with everything that was added Since then it's like no forget the maturing you did you're now that you've regained the piece of yourself that was missing You've just regressed Yeah Yeah, I don't know. It's just it's a bummer because there's so much in the trilogy that I think is fantastic And I feel like I walk away with it having somewhat of a negative impression because I don't like the ending so much And I don't this isn't exactly what I think but like this is Gotten me thinking that ursa says wouldn't getting the memories of trauma back feel like the trauma happened again And mess you up the same way to the first time and like you would think And that's not specifically like so like the way I would think of it would be not necessarily That it would feel like it's happening again, but they would that because you in so like uh Kind of similarly to like so you don't we don't have magic to do this, right? But so there's art there are people that basically compartmentalize their trauma and don't deal with it And it's the same idea you know of like I'm going to put it in a metaphorical box and not look at it and pretend it never happened And in the same way that like he's basically put his trauma in a box and never then dealt with it Never actually confronted it and so all those years that would have been spent possibly working through those traumas He didn't spend working on those traumas So now it's just been put back raw and unhealed like the way that it was when he first You know put it in a box And so then it wouldn't feel like it's happening again But it would be like you could have spent this time healing and like building a callus around this But instead yeah, it's just been put back raw and fresh and you haven't actually like Built into yourself a way to make this a part of yourself because you grew without it It almost reminds me of like people who go into sobriety And then have to like and this is not a one-to-one, but just Go with me here like they go into sobriety And then they have to confront often the reality of like the way they've hurt people in their lives When they were not sober And the pain Like is it it might be over something that happened like 10 years ago But like they're processing the fact that like whatever they did That they did it and that they You know like Have to figure out how to move forward with this person where that person has been healing from it for like 10 years But they're encountering it like really acknowledging and owning that hurt for the first time like It wouldn't be the same as it being totally raw, but like You would think there'd be some level of processing like that. I don't know You know, well like where's I said like he he shouldn't be acting like he'd worked through it because at no point Did he work through it because it wasn't there so he didn't Have the time to work through it. Yeah Yeah, but I do yeah, I don't know. I feel like I'm being really negative I do really like I will say something I like about the ending Is I like that the fool is revived And then I did talk about that in our residences, which I haven't talked about at all Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that thematically this idea of like, okay What does it look like to be somebody who has lived their life assuming that they were going to die for everyone? And then that they do what they're supposed to do and not just I generally but knew the appointed time that they were back basically Yeah, like I love the idea of like Okay, what do I do now? Like I it's almost like Like the doomsday cultists who are like sell all their property and yeah The day of judgment and you're like it came and went and I what do I do now? Turns out it wasn't the day of judgment Yeah, I I actually Thought it totally made sense that the fool couldn't stay with Fitz So, I mean, obviously it's sad that they're not together by the end but like That made sense to me Emotionally like that was a more that that was more emotionally consistent to me Then what's going on with molly and so it's like we had we had like we could only pick one to be realistic So the pits and fool was realistic. Therefore the other one had to be this weird fanfic thing Yeah, but I really liked the ending for the fool that I thought was really interesting complicated Not totally what I was expecting Yeah, I liked it Yeah, and I mean to this point too like it's very convenient that birch dies Like for that happy ending to happen. I was like Oh That might be that would be very interesting for him and Burke to have to like live together And like figure out a new version of their relationship where it's like, hey, you're with the woman I thought I was going to be with But it's been a long time and I and you're my dad and you did some great things for me And you also made some fucked up decisions and like You know, I would very much enjoy seeing some therapy sessions between Burke and Fitz as an adult where they're processing their shared trauma And we're mildly with birch and isn't like making flirty eyes at Fitz because like that ship has sailed Yeah, but he should not be with somebody was mentioning Jenna Yeah, she at first I thought she might be cool and she does have the great cat, but she is the worst so I don't know. There's a lot of worse than this book. I don't know. She yeah, that's true I did I did not enjoy her as a romantic pairing for Fitz help But then again, I've almost never liked any romantic fairings for Fitz really only the fool Only I don't really feel So it's like maybe they can have a queer platonic relationship of some kind I don't know but that feels unfair to the fool because he definitely wants the bone This is best relationships are with with night eyes and with the fool Yeah Yeah Sorry Fitz. You should be alone. It's better that way kind of you're kind of doomed for Oh But yeah, I mean, I also like uh I likened it Fool the fool kind of being like Um, so apparently I'm alive past my expiration date What do I do? Just like it kind of reminded me of like at the end of princess bride when ego in ego montoya is like I spent so many years preparing for revenge that now that it's over. I don't know what to do with the rest of my life And that's when Fitz should have told the fool. Have you ever considered piracy? You could go join up with althea and and he has being amber Or yeah, yeah, maybe they maybe that's what they're going to do. Maybe they're gonna go be amber again and I don't know Well, well, we'll find out Yeah, we will we will find out next week on realm of the elderlings Yeah, but so we're starting. I don't know anything about rainwilds Are any of these characters supposedly in rainwilds or this is just like totally off its own Somebody told me that we do see people from like that some of the live ship crew Well, what's his main character is like super tied into the dragon. What's their little brother's name? Oh I don't remember you're asking like he's like basically like super like Psycho connected to tentaglia. Let's let's look up the back of the Although people always say that the backs of these books are super spoilery. So I just never checked them anymore Okay. Well, I'm I'm just skimming to see what names I see Like what's on even have you looked at them now that we've read them? Have you looked at the backs of the tawny man books now that you've read them? No, should I they basically give away the entire plot and you're like, dear god So glad I did not read these. Okay. Well, I'm just I'm not reading the details I'm just looking I'm looking for capitalized things and I'm seeing tentaglia trader cities uh Kelsingra the mythical homeland and then Character names, I don't know. So I'm guessing we're going to get some of our known characters Yeah, we're told us that so selden. That's the name of the kid. But uh, she said ring wilds have no returning characters in the first two books, but um Okay, the two later books get better and they bring more characters in okay. Well, we're starting it next month. I think right Yeah, that's my plan. Yeah, and actually I don't know if I should say this live, but these are all Shorter books. So I'm more down to try to read one a month of these Because they're not as like we can decide when we've started the first one to be like, do we want to read the next one next month or not? Yeah, that's true. They're but they're more I have a feeling that they're not going to be the same level of just like, oh my gosh, like I'm not a seasoned of a gigantic fantasy tome raider as you are. So I need also every time I made this mistake with willful princess But I also think because they're shorter and they're about dragons that they might be less brutal But I could be totally wrong about that because like part of the reason these books face is not even their length Although the length is true, but like it's the emotional depth. Oh my god. Yeah They're so dense. They're like so dense and rich the rich texts And they take a lot at me But but like emotionally more than okay, dare you saying that she'd recommend reading one and two really close together Okay, so maybe we'll try maybe we can do is we can read one and two in september october And then skip november and then and then december january read back to back. Yeah That works for me something like that We're getting close And then we have the grim dark one We have a new favorite character in rain well chronicles Oh She's good at characters also like because i'm feeling so kind of like Uh, it's just kind of uh burned out on fits in the fool and this crew i'm like And I know i'm gonna see them again But i'm like i'm kind of relieved that there's something in between before we do fits in the fool that i'm like I've had an interview for a little while. I'm glad to have four books in between I might start to be like I could use some fits again by then hopefully. Yeah um Why one and two are also released between the hunger. Oh interesting Interesting I don't know. I'm optimistic. I really love what we saw of the rain wild Like that was some of my favorite stuff in life ship. So I and I also just love dragons So I wasn't necessarily about dragons then i'm excited I I want to say that I love dragons, but 90 percent of the time maybe more maybe 99 percent of the time I actually when I read a book that has dragons i'm not in a like this Like in the concept of a dragon appeals to me and then most of the time the execution I'm like nope didn't like that but like the only two writers I think that I can think of they may not be the only ones we almost I can think of where I like Them using dragons are georda our martin and robin ha I mean i'm yeah, i'm a sucker for dragons of any kind I like a dragon shifter romance Um, I like space dragons. I've encountered some of those I like fantasy. I just like dragons. They're fun. I like them when they're mean. I like them when they're secretly nice Any flavor of dragon really I'm pretty pretty into I feel like most of the time I feel just like I'll see a book with a dragon on it and I'll be like Ooh, and then I read it and I'm like nah like I don't think you know How to use dragons in your story like they'll make them a plot device or they'll make them really corny Or they'll like I don't I just I'll just Yeah, I just like it. I'm just I'm just and I like them so I'm always happy when they're there Oh, I do like fireborn and that has good use of dragons in it. There you go Okay, dairy says not to hope for too much Um, I would tend to I feel like robin hob as I've said many many times is about the only author that can do all of the things that she's doing because like Psychically talking to animals forget dragons animals of any kind any other author talking ships any other out there I'd be like that sounds so stupid. So unbelievably stupid But robin hob does it well so the fact that her dragons talk I'm like she can pull it off But like that's I do like that the dragons in song by some fire are very very intelligent, but they don't talk Yeah well everyone tune back in I guess at the Beginning of next year and we'll recap her in what chronicles and see where we are um We're Getting but yeah, I guess get ready for uh it to be uh a setup setup books That's okay But yeah, I liked tyntagly or I mean, I don't know I don't have liked is the right word because then she's kind of awful But like I enjoyed reading about tyntag. Oh, she's very compelling I don't I don't know that I like her but she's very compelling I also think that tyntaglia is a great name for a dragon Oh, I agree and the naming in general Well, I don't like the realm. I don't like the six duchies character attribute naming. I'm not into that But I got used to it The rest of the naming I I meant to Kyle I only like him because it's Kyle fucking Haven and also no offense to any actual kiles But most kiles. I know are very like well actually kind of guys that Did you see the on the daily show desi leiding being like I've adopted I've tried to understand the male experience by trying to like live my life like a man And she's like I've started like talking about bitcoin even though I don't know anything about bitcoin I've started getting paid more for no reason. I have three friends now named kyle like No, me and my my best friend at work have said that our new our new motto is to Approach our jobs like mediocre white men Because we will We're less stressed. We have successfully negotiated higher salaries. It's a very good strategy Incorporated you just need some friends named kyle and start talking about bitcoin and you're all set. Yeah Yeah, he's from chalice which explains everything Yeah, fair fair Well, I will see you guys back here on lana's channel, I guess in Some five months six six six months six ish months to talk about five months. I guess to talk about brainwound chronicles Yeah, I think we'll be I think we'll be back for book club before then Oh, yeah, yeah Specifically on my channel That's true. I haven't haven't plotted my revenge yet. I need to think of a way to oh, yeah, you gotta decide Hey, you got to read that was a book you it only took you a day to read you got a full-ass video from it I feel like that I could afford it far worse And I mean I have to think of an equal A proportionate revenge I mean dated sci-fi fantasy is probably a pretty good Way to talk to me Part two of the book of the new son I'm picking I would pick this equal to um The black company was that that one? I don't want to read that That would be torturing myself. Okay. Well I would prefer reading that to the more I'll um finally make you continue first law I would I probably could use being compelled to do that I wouldn't be mad about well, I've been looking for a reason to reread the books next year So if you would like to read them next year, I'll read them with you I I'm trying to think what Well, I can't commit to it unless you're gonna make me read it for book club until I get through robin hob because that's like my chunky So like when we finish robin hob series when we finish. Yeah. Yeah, when we finish robin hob We'll do our first law together. Yes Because I liked first law, but I probably need to reread it because it's been I also need to read it now It's been a few weeks months Nope, just weeks I mean, this is the first month um in a while because we we skipped august For our the read along the on the podcast. So this month i'm experiencing some first law withdrawals, but we're back to it next month Thank god Getting your heads speaking of sobriety right now. Lana's unwillingly sober from joe apricromby, but she's about to get her fix here in full weeks Yeah, I mean, I'm glad alex is not here because he would just tell me to get help And the help I need is a reread I I got a fever and the only medicine is more cowbell slash I have a need for grim dark yes Well, I need to I mean when I learned the dairy has read realm of the elderlings is it like 16 times I think it's something like that, right? Oh my god So I was like I no one gets to give me grief over the like three times that I've read first I will say It's a series that has so much going on in it. It definitely merits rereading. So like especially like um It's not really hasn't been true so far But what from what I gather which is what I said before is that like I wonder how that's possible if they were semi-panced But that like the end of it does offer new context for everything you've read up to that point So then I could easily see like because I say that about the first law trilogy the first one that like where it ends you're like, oh Now I must go back and read the beginning because like I'm all I did not know to look for that Oh, I must go look for where all the times that you actually technically were hinting at this thing that I didn't know to look for So like if that's the case of the end of realm the elderlings, I could absolutely see wanting to be like Oh Given this, you know recently acquired information. I must go back to the beginning. I must go back. Yeah, I could see I can see why somebody at least even just from what we've read so far I can see why somebody would get to the end of the books we've read so far and be like I need to go back so that I can start catching more things reread 23 Good lord. Yeah So literally no one give me great fun for us a lot. I have 20 rereads to go I just can't remember like I literally just had to do a plot recapping episode bonus episodes for my podcast because like I just finished rereading site changeling and I've already forgotten macro plot things So I had to go back and like look at my notes and like Record episodes that I can remember Um so And I think what's great about any book series that you like and that you like to reread I think it's the mark of a good book series that like even if you've read it Three times four times 23 times that you find new things when you read it. Yeah Yeah Um, well, I don't know if you can hear them, but my cats are freaking out because I need to feed them They're like it is there. I'll I'll let you go but I enjoy our biannual rum of the elderly check Yep, and then, you know at some point I'll be permitted to bring up first law because we'll actually be talking about first law on purpose Hey, I've got both of the audiobooks of the ones I've not read. So I'm ready to rumble whenever I've got the mental space for it. So Yes, it's honestly so cathartic I'll just I mean every time I have a bad interaction Um, I say bad interaction and interaction that like outwardly is positive. But in my mind I'm griping about an interaction with the boss, you know, where I'm like Such an idiot can't believe you're asking me to do this. Are you serious? Like that's what I'm thinking in my head, but out loud. I'm like, sounds great. We'll do every time I'm like Glockta, I feel Glockta right now Yeah, well Glockta, I feel like would not get great performance reviews at the end of the year Um, well like most of the time like he grins it's only his internal monologue You know where he's like you idiot, but outward. He's like, yes, sir. Whatever you'll say. Sorry. I'll show whatever He's like With his great little like toneless Cades. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah He's a character. But yeah Enjoy the rest of your Saturday your rest of your boba the rest of your cat or day. Yes. Happy cat or day Where's mine? Oh, she's asleep. She's on the couch Oh Hi, sweet girl. It's found a little bit of sun right there. Yeah, I was gonna say she's got some so she's Hi How are you? He's such a pretty girl Hi, it's like what you woke me up for nothing Hi, baby. Hi, sweet girl You can go back to sleep now. I don't have anything for you As you were like I hear the baby voice. I know that's for me Oh Well, have a good rest of your Saturday Yep. Bye. Bye