 that eastern section on Main Street from the property line is at 10 feet now? That was quite a job. This one right here. Yeah, I was looking at what was said. To the north side of the sidewalk, it's 10 feet. That way. Then there's a way to the sidewalk, and then there's a green strip, and then there's this river. And then the western way is not far from the side now? The western way from the north side of the sidewalk is 20 feet. 20 feet. Okay. Let's get it. Oh yeah, we were responding. We'll probably see some of the changes, but we've done about six different. No, perhaps at our last meeting, we broke that dam. We said, hey, maybe we shouldn't put in 14 parts. And that gave us a lot more. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I don't know whether the other boards will buy it, but that's the risk we're all taking. Yeah, yeah, good. So how much, what is the part of the meeting? Where it's eight or nine hours. So that enabled you to move more to the east. Move the, to just reconfigure. It enabled us to move back here. Move us back. I see. Right. Because last time the eastern wings moved back to five feet. Yeah. 10 feet. It's been moving. Yeah. Before it was double loaded. Right. It was double loaded parking. Yes. With an 18 foot drive in between. Yes. So now it's just single loaded. Yes. Some perpendicular and some parallel. Yes. Yeah. And you've got that little thing to kind of show it. The backside. So you're crossing each other. We have a drawing. You would be impressed when we get, when we really design it. Right. And we'll, we'll make a basis then treat it. But this is the concept. Right. Right. And actually it's not just to tell you where the entrance is. It's a peak with snow controlling. I knew when you walk here. Right. And the highest peak now is on Great Street. The highest peak here is, that is the studio. That's 22 feet. And then it's on Main Street. I'm sorry. Yes. The part on Main Street. How high is that? That is 20 feet. I see. And then the center entry is 18, 17 feet. So. We're up in the 30s before. We started at 32. Yes. So now we're down to 22 with the studio portion. Right. Is there a way to get to the tree line that separates the Hills House from the Great Street properties to get on the Main Street? Because I would like to see how the westerly edge aligns with the tree line. So looking from, from Main Street? Yes. That's right. Yes. This is very helpful. Now I'd like you to, what I'd like you to do is to bring yourself on Main Street, looking up at the Hills House, keeping the tree line in the center of your vision. I think I have to be looking north from. Okay. This was very well trained at that time. This is a little bit further right now. These are kind of like camera tripods. Yes. So what we're doing now is there's still a drainage structure that, what's that mound like? We love that question. Would you show me where it's drainage? Well, after the treatment. I don't know if you can handle it. Now could you get the mound into that somehow? Yes. From the picture it looks like the mound was down in front of the structure all the way to the east. This is where the mound added. So this at the end of the mound. So where is the mound actually? Are you telling us we can no longer see them or else? I want to be on record of saying that you wouldn't be able to tell. And I am still on record of saying you can't tell. There's much. We plow that much every year in my fun. So is it a foot high? One foot higher. One foot. One foot. That's really. Hey students. Wow. That's much. Is it? Yeah. Coy does have an edge view of just the open site that shows the shadow line. The case that you can see. That's the mound. You can see kind of like the mound. See what it gets turned on versus what it's. You can actually just start on Main Street. Just go around the whole building. You explain what we're seeing. Like the south facade going around the corner and all the way around. So if you just do a flyover, you can see the whole thing. That's good. You set up. This is right in the corner. So this is on the corner of Gray Street. Looking north towards Hill House. Till where? Yeah. Looking up Gray Street. And there's the new building and the existing structure that was moved in. So on this end on Gray Street, before you had a porch, you know, like a porch and an entry, is that something that's still considered? I mean it's hard with the massing model. But is that you're going to have an entry? Are you going to stop an entry there? We'll tell when we do the drawings. We don't know yet. I mean, we literally have, we know we can fit it in all of you. But that kind of a concept of expression is something we will be working on in this next phase if it's a move for us to proceed. Generally speaking, the answer to the next question is no moment just looking at the floor plans. It's not automatic. It's not just that it's not there. Right, but it could be there. The floor plan is to give you a sense of what the plan is. I hope we have the ability to move things around inside the building as we approach our final drawings. We hope that this would establish the type of building rather than specific interior layout. I don't know. You might have gotten stuck on your plans in your preliminary stage, but we'll continue to move things around. Exactly what I was expecting that it would do. It would get us to the next place. I'm not expecting it to look like it's built. It's built in Green Street, but more towards the women's class. So it's still on Gray Street? Yes, it's still on Gray Street. We're looking at it tonight. Right, so we're first coming north, now we're coming north. This is our driveway, and the parking is behind this. Right, building. So the driveway will be, like, right, going that way. Right here. So the parking then has to be behind the building, and will not be a parking lot. We have one space reserved in here. That's still great. It's made of the boss. While this view is on, and I'm talking to my colleagues here now, I think it's important to note that one of the elements of this scheme is a studio, which is a big block of space that doesn't have any meat at windows or doors or anything into it. And that has been moving around with the possible various schemes we've had, and with various conversations we've had, we've kind of been pushing the design team to get away from the western edge because it was a mass that was blocking, and I know I was advocating for lowering that. So it comes across to the eastern side. I think we have to bear in mind that what we see there is perhaps a reasonable addition of what it might actually look like, and given the pragmatic needs of the applicant, we probably should expect to have something like that somewhere. Not so gross. We may well, we're not averse to putting elements in a facade even though it's blank. There are many buildings in town where there used to be windows, and you can see them there, because we'll do something like that. It could be, you would do something for the aesthetics that it's not really functioning. Because function is fitting in, not running a studio. Well, I understand that. Yes, but it doesn't have to look like it's there. Right, that's right. Excuse me, yes. And I think we had discussed this last week when it was on the other side, that indeed even if there were real windows put in there so that the studio space would potentially be a conference hall as well, with black curtains for the studio use, there are ways that one could adapt. I'm working on them, but I haven't got it for you. Okay, okay, yes. Craig, can you take that? So the eye level is a little higher there? So, because what I want to, yeah, keep going down. That's the reality is that's 25 feet to the inside edge. It's a macadam. I think it's an asphalt sidewalk on this side. So the distance from the face of the building to that asphalt, the inside edge of the sidewalk, is 20... It might actually be 28 feet. Yeah, that dimension there. To the sidewalk is 28 feet. So that's another 10 feet to the street curve. And if you spin it a little this way, Craig, and go down a little bit. Now, where that other corner is on Main Street, the southeast corner of the building there. This one or this one? That's 44 feet for that same asphalt sidewalk. So when it was a flatter view, you could see the impression that maybe it's only the length of a person lying down, but you've got to get a tip to see what the actual dimension is. So we'll keep going around? Yeah. This is from the same spot on Gray Street looking directly east of Main Street. Is that a person then? Yeah, it's just a person per scale. About 16 feet. Okay. Now we'll move kind of... No, no, no, that's called the Gray and May. Yeah, that's the Gray and May. This is right in the corner of Main Street and Gray Street. And that's the closest point. It's 10 feet from the sidewalk. Well, in the southeast corner, it gets to 12 or 13 feet from the sidewalk. And the sidewalk displays wider at the end as well before you get to the street curve. So you're farther away from the street curve in the southeast corner than the 10 feet that... Right, at the smallest. The closest point to the sidewalk. Yeah. So you're going to continue around? Now we're kind of looking the same spot as kind of for Main Street. So we're kind of looking toward Triangle? Yeah, we're looking toward Triangle Street. I think you're on Main Street looking directly at it. Why don't you tip that up? That's the hill. So there we're seeing those distances. You can see the 10 feet right at where that purple line is about where the sidewalk, the inside edge, the north edge of the sidewalk is. You know, it displays down further so you kind of see the distances. Right, and there you can see where the entrance is going to be under that triangle. So the fact triangle is the kind of indication of a peak over the... Again, people will say that's the gradient. So we're going... We've been moving up the street a little bit. It's taking a long time. Oh, the same guy's going. I said these will fly by. They'll fly by. Do something like this. Yeah, that's good. Well, it's not exactly the same. That's the nice thing about that. So with this elevation, I was curious, what's the height of the, you know, the eaves for, you know, in the corner? So, you know, it looks like it's buried on the western end, but then taller... That's 10 feet on the straight end. 10 feet. The grade goes up three feet or something naturally. But we mean when it's 10 feet... It's 10 feet to the eave there. That corner. Yeah. So that would be higher on that little part that's jutting out to mainstream. It might be like 13 or 14 feet. Yeah. Yeah, that's just a little... What do you call it? 13 feet? No reason. This is less than this. Yeah. Of course. By mainstream. Because we're not making any changes in the interior of the floor. Make no absolutely... Do you think you're on the Triangle Street now? Yes. Now we're kind of back kind of close to Triangle Street looking down. Let's go back and see if we can actually see the burn a little bit. Look on Triangle Street. So the parking lot, you will see the cars parked from Triangle Street? From Triangle Street. Well... Well... There's a retaining wall there probably. Yes. The parking lot's level, more or less level, so that there will be a retaining wall or a fence or something. So that would probably cut off. If we can get it three feet high then we don't need to have any fence over it. Because the reason for the fence in parking lot is to protect the neighbors from the headlights. So it's not a safety issue. So that would be good to do here. Or we'll plant bushes there. Or planting, yeah. You don't want to take it. We had one... It was actually an Amherst building in the Dickinson Historic District where they were going to keep a permanent dumpster. And we required that if we could have plantings around it. So maybe just something like that. They assures that there's no dumpster. No, no. If we wanted to shield it... Yes. There's ways we could aesthetically see it. They have virtual throwaways. Okay. Okay. We can look down at Thumblaid Hill's house. Yeah. That's a women's home. That's the way it works. Now this may... Do we anticipate... Is that still all your property? Amherst... Would you be fencing it? Or no? No. Okay. And you're probably the worst thing to do at this point, especially in front of you to say you throw a fence. No. It would stop you from crossing the fence. Exactly. That land has got to be part of that one partial rail. Yes. Because the zoning required is a certain amount of coverage and maximum coverage. Okay. So we're depending on that land to comply with the zoning. And we want to blend it into the view state. Okay. Fences are attractive reasons. Those are... We see it from... We see it from gray as if you're coming into the parking lot. You know, from that... Coming down gray, yeah. Down gray? Yeah, down gray. Yeah. So we're trading quite into the parking lot. Yeah. And this is where the land won't be sloping up. Yeah. This is the parking lot. Contour is in the land. As shown right now, we're going to just mask the entire new process. It hasn't been ended at all. But this does have the both of the... Yes. The both. There it is. Yes. And we turn it a little kind of clockwise again. Oh, I thought we were taking... When we were in the field and we had that large surveyor stick, we set it against the lower peak on 14 Gray Street. The other peak is higher. And that lower peak also was up three or four feet because the land goes up there. And we had our building that I think at 26. Now we're down to 22. And it was from where we were to that 22 foot peak and where they are at their 26 foot peak higher up. We were lower. And now we're lower still by four more feet. We're getting a little too low. And the other thing is as the houses step up Gray Street, they've all been set back and they've all been set on their own kind of plinths of earth. So they actually go higher and higher up. Which if we took a view from the corner of Gray and Maine and looked up Gray Street, you can kind of maybe see the relationship of the peak of the highest peak of our building to where everything is going up hill and Gray Street. Which is stepped up in any of them. Yeah. Like just the hill is sloping. Yes. Yeah, I think that shows how we fit into the residential character of the Gray Street. Oh, but look like a block. Right. Well, you definitely did. I think you did. It's a terrific job in going up to Gray Street. The way the flipping for the higher peak to be on grid, I think, was very helpful. Because if you're south of Maine, do you have any more? No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. We're standing on the porch of Hill's House looking down the driveway. And over here is the That's the full expanse of 401 Main Street in the higher building. And then to the right of the driveway is the Old Wolverine Restaurant in Elmets, Hucktown. Now I'm going to Hill's House. Well, thank you very much. This is very revelatory. Thank you. Again I'll say this, I mean this is a different building than last time. But of course compared to the rest of you and my colleagues, I've been more or less able to visualize this. I mean it's very, very reassuring to me and I guess we will know that we now see to have that same clarity of what has been proposed that I think I had because I've been brought up to the nature of this stuff. So I think the learning on this exercise or the commission is that we must require and we must be clear what applicants mean I think going forward particularly for substantial new additions or complete new buildings that applicants must come on day one with this kind of presentation it's taken us weeks to get here and it's so simple and clear that. Yeah, although it did also take I have to say we've been iterating on I know it's improved it's not the same, right? Smaller, smaller I'm not suggesting that we've wasted our time in that regard I'm just saying that if we had of been developing the scheme right using this being able to visualize it right and and drawings and things I think it would have made right I think that's a point well taken for right I appreciate that and I have to say for myself personally I think you know I would still need to see as you said Mr. Gillan the detail so we have a picture of what it literally is going to look like but I feel like we have in terms of in terms of the massing and the proportion the location right and the burn yes being that we I know we have to formally do this but that we could move forward to the next step um maybe this is probably my colleagues as well but I came prepared today having thought a lot about this I know Bill well I was with any friend I like what he does but I wasn't happy with what I had seen up until beginning of this meeting and since we hadn't had any indication that there was going to be something new um I had thought well I'm going to move to deny and the move to deny was based on inappropriate scale in this location was finding that and that motion would have invited you all to either agree or not to share that opinion and if we share that opinion then we're done here because we would have denied the certificate of birth business based on inappropriate scale um I think that we asked that I don't reveal personally anyway that I'm inclined to present that motion at this moment and I'm pretty sure I was the only one on the commission that had a mind to do so so to take your point that we should somehow uh perhaps find a way to concentrate that particular finding if you like but anyway I feel that we are no longer um um faced with schemes that is inappropriate to the next level or in detail from a scale point of view which for me was a huge big deal because I felt it was and I still feel that there might be a better way of doing it but then we're having an architectural disagreement and this dream said at one point in the meeting that that's we didn't say it but he implied it and I agreed that's not my role here it's not to make it my building that's not my job as an architect on this commission and I would hate to think that anybody thought that might be the case but my job here is to have a certain role in and so forth so I think we're probably at a point where we can really and I haven't yet turned my attention to thinking about how any of the proposals that we've seen today could be better improved I haven't turned it because that was refuting my basic thesis which was the inappropriate beginning but so now my mind is to turn to wanting to think about how this scheme as it stands here could be improved if we have a mind to as a commission take that on and I have to ask just procedurally Nate we're still in the public portion of the meeting and if we're not at the point to vote on the certificate of appropriateness because we need to see a more refined but so is it a vote or just a general agreement that we're I think there can be an agreement by consensus that this massing in site locations appropriate then it gives the applicant enough information to go forward with the new refined drawings to present so I would consider we keep the public hearing open we can't accept new information until that's closed so the hearing would stay open until the commission has enough information to close it and make a determination so yeah we could just do a consensus yeah we'd like to hear from more of the commission members what they think about the design and if there's questions to I agree I think some of it is a structure so you know to me if the firm is a foot or less that's no longer a structure so it's I think it's out of their jurisdiction I just want to confirm that by within those retaining walls and we don't know if the entryway is going to look like that but that's all part of coming back to the next I think there's a lot of things to look at I agree but thank you just to be clear I'm so essentially the women's club and the hills still have clear open strides with unstructured views in front of them unstructured views but that's we will go to public comment yeah the debate about whether it's unstructured how this is fine but I think I know what you're saying well I think that they've done many things that may be respectful changes but I think we should see those final oh we will we will it's just really giving them the go ahead to go to that stage yeah I think we're going to say medium yes so there's a short quote I did propose that the commission finds yeah could I just listen we're left no this is just for clarity amongst ourselves they presented and then the procedure is that we can ask questions and talk among ourselves before we ask for public comment I'm not suggesting I'm not suggesting the contrary what I'm wondering is to the extent to which a straw pull of any kind is appropriate before you've taken public comment it's as if you've already made some decision about moving forward without accepting public comment on this proposal yeah we're going to have to argue that yeah I think we can agree that we're comfortable with yeah with this sizing and mass no I was going to say we can do as a proposal I think we want to before because before the end of the day today give the applicant some indication that they can confidently come to the procedure yeah no we do that we can send them I don't know I think we have heard from all the commissioners yet yeah so if we're some of the questions and answers then I think we can you know go for that phase no I wouldn't I would like to clarify for everyone the procedure that we're going to use make sure we understand it and the public understand it we've heard the presentation we've had a great discussion hi I suggest that we go to public comment for not more than 10 minutes it's 10 to 5 now I believe and that we then come back to see if we're ready to have consensus but not any confining vote on the mass proportion citing location issues and if we and if we pass that part of our discussion we then be as specific as we can with windows roof I mean all kinds of architectural detail that we want to see at our next meeting so that would possibly take us from 5 to shortly before 6 maybe to quarter of 6 when we could have some time for discussion on that we may need more than what time is it yeah because we talked about you know since we have so little time to talk among ourselves that that and the procedure is that we I'm not saying we will not heed your suggestion but the procedure is that the applicant presents and then we ask questions and then we discuss and then we go to public hearing and then we make some decision so what you're talking about is already existing in the trade and it's called design development and it's what we will be presenting to the planning board it's what we normally have to present to the zoning board those are where you've got the elevations plans but you don't have the dimensions and the beam size and all that we all understand that we can't issue the certificate of appropriateness until we come back from the next so that's why we can have some we don't need any comment and whether we can discuss among ourselves whether we're comfortable with this you know size, mass and position on the lot because we're not having any vote now to issue a final certificate of appropriateness so I'll take if between us and our conversation now is there anything that you would like to add? I think it would be nice to hear the comments because we cannot talk outside of this right so this is our only opportunity to sense among ourselves how we're responding to these newest designs okay so we will how many types that show hands about how many we have for public comment okay so we will go until 5.30 let's say that's 35 minutes okay so I'm just going to start in order to go this way so do you like I guess you can edge over yeah right street not along this next house up the street I have seen where the parking is going today and I don't know whether you can put the parking on this schema but I think that is a point that needs to be discussed you can put the you can put that PDF on the screen the one from Grace we showed before no it's the PDF put that up it's your site plan they can do it I mean I don't have it I thought it would be incorporated in the models I could go directly from the top to use the parking is back in here so yeah perpendicular spaces there's spaces here and there's a driveway and along the driveway there's a couple of spaces parallel spaces they're set in the ground because it's level on the ground is picking up the height so do you have can we move down the line did you have another comment Mr. Wilford no that so moving down this road well yes actually is this don't be in right I don't know yes at this point it's about three feet below that grade so you'll look right over because this is all the parking lot is about the same level as the main floor of the road and then of course there's the ongoing question of the actual how much water there is in the hill and is the building going to be protected on particularly from the west and north yeah that's our civil engineer has worked up some kind of drainage system that uses this grass area and adds a foot to the level of the ground in the course of doing that to get the drainage pipes high enough above the ground water the civil engineer has worked on that and the idea is that that the water will be piped down to the grey street not to the storm some of it is and some of it is is instead fed into the ground with a with a set of drainage tiles like a septic system only as it moves what the water is concerned that at times of the year recently we've had a flood that's a sidewalk flooded well that's going to be greatly ameliorated because there's there's drainage coming from up above that's going to be piped out before we start work I'm glad to see that you've got your this is your studio I'm glad to see that the studio is not sunk in in that end because again I don't need to cut off but maybe if you continue because we're not going to I don't know about it but it's fine okay you can continue the meeting okay going down Dr. Omar so I just wanted to say thank you to the commission I realize that this is not a very easy job to take into consideration all of the details I think you've come with something that you all helped to shape and I think we should all be proud of the process and so once again I ask that we hold to the bylaws and I think that's of course what you all are doing and I just appreciate us getting to this point thank you look forward to the next phase okay on the darking hand yes I'd like to see a picture from the Amherst Women's Club towards the parking because that lawn area is essential for the weddings that are held there without which the Amherst Women's Club could not maintain the building which has been very expensive again this year so we used to have that good view you had a appreciate it yeah I was up a bit a lot of that of women's clubs were more ground level this is ground level from the the women's club so would you show where the parking is at this point parking is the concern there at this point the parking is three feet below that line because it's slowly it has at least the parking lot is level so that will to some can you extend conceal it and of course you can always plant shrubbery can we require the shrubbery there because I think that the Amherst Women's Club you couldn't see the cars that would be significant simply landscaping is exempt but as new construction that part of screening you can consider it so the commission has done that before for the project so there's ways to word it as a condition to make it perpetual or permanently maintained so it becomes a permanent screen as opposed to something that would be exactly and that's what we did with that dumpster but thank you for that comment but that is a concern to us as well we share that oh yes what had bothered me most about the other plan was that well a lot of things bothered me which have been fixed but one that I can't tell whether it's been fixed is the slope of each of the roofs and they were quite different in the other scheme so I would hope that maybe all of the roofs could have the same pitch when they get done so they are here it looks like it's still they're identical seven and a half it's will all three be the same? exactly that would be a huge improvement I think in terms of mouse and scale if the buildings at least matched in roof picture thank you Chris Bester planning director I just wanted to suggest I don't know how this will fit into your process but it would be possible I think for you to write up a list of recommendations for the planning board to consider because the planning board will be considering this during a site plan review application and if you had certain things like plantings or things that may not specifically fit into your jurisdiction and I assume that there's a lot more work that needs to be done with this location and the grading and everything before it goes to I think they're waiting on in the far forward okay thank you really briefly can you give me a baggage district one I this is I've been following this very closely and I just want to observe what a good process is meeting and this is about all there are no bad guys in this this is about two sets of interests that we all care about both Amherst media has been trying to find a home for ten years they've been battling it out with Comcast for various technical reasons that have to be within a certain closeness to the middle of town and our government particularly our democracy at the same time we also all value our amazing history of our town and particularly the physical history and the beauty of it which is of course extremely controversial because of other parts of town I'm not even going there so these are all good interests we're all there's no bad guy here and it feels like this is about whether or not this complies this legal thing and I appreciate that seems to be the focus thank you thank you Hi Felicity Hardee I'm the attorney for Harmsway which is the a butter and owner of the Hales House have a couple of observations for the commission to consider when we were here last my understanding was that the commission was encouraging the applicant to present three different scenarios we don't have that Mr. Coldham had mentioned that he thought it was important that at least one of the scenarios should contain a flat roof we don't have that and from my perspective I think that the modeling actually just underscores what I've been saying all along about this project and its programmatic needs it's too much building for the space that is available here and it's unfortunate that we've had to go through you know quite a protracted process of trying to figure out what to do about this application but I think that in the final analysis really the problem is that it's too much and just make sure that I understand oh yes one thing that I think is interesting about this massing model is it really does I think demonstrate as you go up main street towards triangle how much of a mass that structure adds to that lot I mean it's just it's a big structure they need a lot of space I get that and I think what is what happened is that the views of the Hills House and the Loomis Club coming up on main street moving into the center of town are going to be an ultraably affected and I strongly encourage the commission to really think about whether or not this this design albeit better than what has been presented in the past and still just doesn't is inappropriate given the scale of the building that they need and what the site has to offer okay we can I don't want to respond to each person to speak so we'll continually respond thank you Tony Brackett so the these aerial shots I think are helpful if you want to see the large geographical area the area that you're talking about but no one's going to be flying over this space so I think it's helpful to see it from either pedestrian's perspective or sitting in a car is as you enter this area from the east you're going to see this mass of building here and it was at one point a concern of this commission to reserve the views coming from the east and it appears that you've all decided although I've never heard anybody specifically mention this that this is no longer a concern because everybody seems to be very pleased with the mass that they see here but it's completely obliterating the viewscape coming from the east and what's going to happen if you approve of this as you will forever lose that expansive viewscape coming from the east it's going to be gone forever and you're not going to get to see past us whether walking or driving from the east once you've passed this building then you're going to see that space and it's going to be completely compromised and I think it's inappropriate thank you thank you are there any comments in the background? yes Eric will consent on 20th Brace Street I appreciate the comments and the process that this commission has established to review this school here today it does help us visualize a little bit better I was struck however by your questioning of the applicant here today along the lines of that Tilling just articulated looking at the building and not looking at the building's impact on the streetscape and the historic nature of the building that it is adjacent to the purpose of the historic commission's bylaw is to protect residents I don't see how this is either protecting the workers I think it is hardening the streetscape we're not going to be able to see those houses or the Emily Dickinson's house the namesake for this historic addition this building will block the suppression completely thank you are there any other comments? yes two more my name is the owner of this image as well as 14th Gray street which is just right there I have to say that the I guess a question that I think should be asked is how true the scale is on this because I don't find that those views that showed for example the Hills house the 38th as a giant thing in back it just looks like the scale of the different buildings aren't an equal scale that for example the other is if you know you have my building next door to it just above the cursor there that's a full yes that's a full two-story building here with the other half of it being the equivalent of three stories this building down here is said to be basically a one-story building I don't know how that doesn't fit in in my mind and that's some clarity on that as well as the the fact that there's going to be a studio with presumably not windows I guess pretend windows I don't know I guess I can respond to the scale question yes all the buildings as accurate as I could are to scale the heights widths the lengths of the plan and the reason these may look just so much bigger is how much higher they are kind of elevation 25 feet 25 yeah 25 feet higher than these kind of front buildings in Gray Street those buildings are to scale so they look without the amount of trees because there are less trees shown than there are in real life right now so that might be also adding to the scale fact yes Frederick Griffiths Gray Street a question about the parking and I'm very happy she just contracted and I feel much better about that now it's hidden and it's eight spaces now am I right yes and I welcome that but I want to ask in part of the procedural question whether that is going to prove to be sustainable especially given the possibilities of the next owner which you have to take into account with any construction obviously in other words what I'm worried about is you build that and for the programmatic needs of Amherst Media eight may be sufficient but should there be another owner or should they find that not sufficient then there will be the next step presumably that goes to you again but you may end up with a situation of a building that is not sustainable at that level next owner not sustainable can't be empty the only use is if you extend and all of a sudden you have parking going off to the west so the use is for the compromise so I'm just wondering how sustainable in the long run given the chances of the world the eight slots are going to be if it's approved with a certain number of parking spaces then someone would have to come back and request additional you know at the same time you know this commission then we could you know not approve the whole project and then Amherst Media there's another commission and you know the initial building is approved the problem is you get a non-sustainable building up to that and you won't want it to be empty then the leverage that the next owner or you know media and some other would have is going to be very considerable so I'd like to know give you some thought if you would please procedurally on that because I guess she was a new at some point a new owner they would have to come back to the local district to request more I think there's also going to be a site plan review application to the planning board and they regulate you know the site planning issues whether it's the drain engine or the parking so I think there's you know different levels of review that may happen if there's a change in use so you know it's an interesting point I don't think there's a condition or a permit on that thinking that well could there be something different in the future I mean we're going to condition it or say approve it but if it were with this with the parking spaces that's being presented and if it changes then it needs to go through the permitting again but I think you know we're being presented with an open lot to the west and parking behind and that's kind of what we can rule on about much speculation in terms of what could happen in the future in terms of our request that the applicant come back with some alternative designs that wasn't a requirement that was a request and if the commission feels that there has been substantial enough changes made to the current design that's not something we we have to insist just because we requested at that we can't go forward until that request is fulfilled and in terms of whether Ampris media is you know wants to create a space that they absolutely need again that's not that's beyond our purview I mean we can't respond to we can't comment or rule or have any you know upon what activity is happening inside the building so it's not for us to say well if it meets if we decide that it meets the proportions and dimensions that we think is appropriate for the district it's really not our place to tell Ampris media that they don't need as much space as they're requesting and I I have to I'm just going to say this I don't know that there is any design proposal that the abudders would feel comfortable with that's the feeling that I'm getting I have to just put that out there so I'm you know they the owner the property is it's within their right to you know put a building there and it's no it's not going to look the same after the building's there as it does right now but we're going to all work together to make it the best that we can yes um this is a difficult historical or background point to make but I think it's appropriate when town meeting approve the the the zoning of this spot there was no discussion of the implications of the local historic district I think that when people took that vote most town meeting members since the local historic district was so new had no idea of the implications of rezoning as an order as a BG yes and so I think I regret to say this but I feel as a commissioner my hands are tied by a decision that was not that was made without full understanding of the implications of that decision I do not want to lay blame anywhere but it is what happened it's the hand we've been dealt it's the hand we've been dealt and therefore I feel bound by that decision unable to say we can approve no building for that space I regret the permanent loss of the view that has been described personally but I feel captured by the decision that was made to rezone I'd also like to add that the meeting in March were the first the Amherst media presented their first application the abutters said that they understood that a building was going to go on those parcels but the understanding was that it was not going to go in the middle of the lot on Main Street but would go on the southeast corner on gray and that it would be smaller in scale and we've you know really took that to heart and we've been working on that you know since March and now we hear well you know now the view is obstructed coming from the east you know and I would say working all together we've done the best we can but I feel like you know it's we took the suggestion and now we're sort of hearing well nothing you put there is acceptable yes I do find it a little bit strange though that we have the women's club and the Hill House in this elaborate Italian style and then you have the row of New England houses which were moved on to Gray Street and then we introduce a totally third style so I'm feeling a little mishmash we're hoping that the style because I believe the architects have been trying to make the style compatible with Gray Street and that's why we're not going to vote on issuing a certificate of appropriateness today because we need to see actually what that is going to look like but the I believe the thought processes was to make it compatible with the houses and have it be a continuation of the houses on Gray Street if I could add to that we have struggled with two style anchors one style anchor being Gray Street and the other style anchor being of the splendid Hill House and women's club and the imitation of that in Mr. Gillan's office across the street other buildings on Main Street we would not want to echo yes all of us going to say yes I'm sorry can you give your name again yes what I'm going to observe is that the commission's role is to determine whether or not the applicant and the application is consistent with the requirements of the local historic bylaw or not what you know what happened at town meeting or what Amherst media's programmatic needs are all of that's irrelevant what you've got to figure out is whether or not it's consistent with the district and I'm confident that you are going to follow the bylaw and do the very best you can thank you and it's simply you're responding to various proposals and you're getting public comment on those proposals and that's it yeah alright thank you yes thank you I appreciate this the two of you had to say about regret and they have been dealt with but my question is to the commission have you decided that the viewscape is not important anymore have you decided that the well I mean you're it appears you're giving that up in order to accommodate that someone has the right to build something there well I think we feel that the viewscape looking that the viewscape has been left maybe 90% I don't know the viewscape from it's actually right coming from the viewscape is hard it is hard but that you know and as as Mr. Gillan said he would have been in favor of having an open field that would have by far been the best option if it would be me I'd give Embers the money and they could build something great you know somewhere else that we could have it open that would be ideal but it is going to be hard the question is if some if they don't build there and the lots are sold into other houses are going to be even worse you know I don't think at this point we can deny that these building lots are I think we're at preservation I guess but there could be reasonable people could have different opinions on what's you know maintaining a historic but I say two things please please identify yourself at Severance Trigger at Severance Trigger don't change or not it was also approved by the plan would have put two blocks there so if we weren't there two buildings would still be there instead of just one secondarily Clay could you go along Main Street and show first of all get rid of the building and go along Main Street show where the tree behind the building blocks the Hills House please from the Hills House? no no from Main Street please if you show where at what point in the intersection does the tree no longer block the Hills House here keep going yeah so right there is the first place okay now could you put the building back exactly in that location thank you it's a very small amount compared to the trees the block would be right now we're trying to ground and during this viewer we're still sort of coming up and down Main Street is about can I make it flat this is island now take the building out please so you can see where the tree is well that is a big difference I was just saying the trees are blocking the view from the east I was just saying the trees block the view from the east I was just saying the trees are right now it's not like you can come all the way those are river birch on my property yeah I don't know right more in the summer okay so we're this will be the last comment you said yeah picking up on the views you gotta go back in time what you wanted to do is that the moving of the houses and the location destroy the view state and as you come down the street and they have the trees behind them and they have all that that is truly the loss of view state if you will from coming down grade, from looking up grade that ruined it quite honestly so when people talk about ruining the view state I think you have to realize that that majority of that's been damaged if that was done prior to the historic commission a district being created those buildings wouldn't have the site they have on now if there was a historic commission in its place so what we're looking at right now is trying to preserve that view up to the two homes both our hills houses originally if you want to get historical is that we've done the most we could to preserve that from Main Street looking north for that view state when you stand on the corner of grade and Main where our building is proposed there's very little of those houses you can't see the tickets in the museum those are the trees from that viewpoint so please give view state to a realistic and ghosty on those streets you can't see them so what we're trying to do and we've done for you we feel for the district and for yourself is move as far to that east that we could to preserve that thank you so I think can we have a motion to well are we closing the public portion because we're continuing the meeting will continue we also have the rest I think a report for the commission just have a recap of the comments everything you know it hasn't really been to me a consensus that this massinger proportion is sufficient to go forward so I think after hearing the comments the commission wants to have a discussion provide the guidance to the applicant that's where we are now it's 526 we have about half an hour I just want to have a recap of what the commission wants to decide provide guidance to the applicant on how to move forward you know we have to then set the next date when you keep the public hearing open we close it we can't accept the information as we have otherwise you know I think there's too much detail to run right now to make a full determination on this project oh we definitely can't and I feel strongly that we can't vote on a certificate of appropriateness until the point that we absolutely see what the building is going to look at but if they're picking up where we started before public comment or consensus or feeling that we can ask the applicant to move to the next point that we're comfortable with the size and the height the vasting of the position a lot in terms of the as I said I was sure I was prepared to to deny based on the the requirement here that the commission shall consider appropriateness to scale the shape and proportion of the building construction and and I think that whereas we may have had additional concepts presented and so forth that may have indicated that we might have done even better but I would move that scheme as presented this is not a schematic design this is a conceptual masking design this is the lowest form of animal life when it comes to an architectural solution but it's the first form of animal life and therefore it's important and so I guess I would propose whatever in a non-formal sense that the commission considers that the scheme the concept as presented is acceptable within the consideration of appropriateness of scale shape and proportion there are other criteria in 8.2 which we will move to but it does seem to be important for the applicant to know if we agree with what I just said it's strange that I should be the one to move it but I just want to it's done in the interest of achieving clarity so if we if we support that proposition we can say so if we don't we should also say so we could go around and ask for a second that's it could you tell us a sense of the meeting a sense of the meeting or a consensus I don't think you need a second it's really just to be we're trying to be clear to ourselves personally and in doing so publicly we are also being clear to the applicant it's the level of commitment that allows the design team to invest more money and time and effort in a given direction with the reasonable expectation that they will be not shut down for having built that on Sound Foundation so that's the intent is that a motion? no if you want to if you want to consider it that way it's a topic for conversation or you want to stop yeah I think that Mr. Gilmour has followed our lead a lot I still think I agree that I'm sorry that the building will change the view but it's not our job we're not in town meeting I would have voted to have that be town land but it's not so I guess we're not done the vote wasn't for it to be town land just if it could be rezone it was always owned by somebody that was it was parceled and I would have wished but are you you know would you be comfortable with them moving to the next step of detail given that situation I think it would be a good idea to move to the next step I think we'll pretty much understand that they have done their best to accommodate some of the issues that we've brought forward particularly in terms of massing and the heights of the buildings and moving it down to the southeast corner more sitting it back from the sidewalk there's a number of things that have been done that have been positive and you know there does seem to be a sense here that it's moving forward positively but we do need to see some more details to actually take a vote you have the points that we may want to see the next I would love it to be a bit smaller looking a little bit differently and do you see anything that could be done with the detail of the facade that would accommodate we're not going to respond to your concerns can we have the picture find the image I'm sorry style that you're going to have to go with this kind of roofline and mass is going to be certainly not going to be much I mean my concern and I've said this before articulated correctly I'm just very when I see the outline and I personally love country style homes and I see that and then when I drive by so I can conscious everywhere I drive and find a valley of what I don't want to look like on Route 9 on the south side of Route 9 right before you get to university there's a building it's called heirloom I think it's called heirloom cooperative it's going to be a dispensary but it has that it kind of looks country style but it has that sort of kind of book and I'm just very concerned that it not look like that with just the side with the wood planks all the same size and shape going across so that's I guess I would like to see it with some charm and I know charms in the eyes of the culture that's the that's the next thing I mean you could also ask the question as to whether kit rooms as opposed to gable lanes on those buildings with the beneficial 50 years later what's that I know I don't know what I do know is that the consistency is that they are gable they should be gables these are gables but it's also certainly true that a hip diminishes scale and we are on the corner and we've got two gables pointing at us and if we wanted to diminish scale we could those gables could be flattened back into what are called hips and the building will look smaller as a consequence now that for me is at this point it's a detail which we could get to talking about later because those are the kind of details level detail we are going to ask them to come back with that we could talk to them once we get past this you know I think there without actually taking a vote there was a consensus that we would like to ask them to accept that's true I just wanted to add I think changing the roof line is more than a mere detail and I've been giving myself a crash architecture for dummies of course they try to be helpful here give it to boo when you're done and things such as a hip on hip for example hip with flat or deck eclipped gable these are all possibilities it would pull the peak down provide space possibly not do it on the grey street side but to do it elsewhere in keeping with the main these are things that I kind of following on what Dorothy was saying that everything doesn't we were talking about everything being grey street because we didn't want a pastiche and we certainly didn't want to reflect certain aspects of main street as it currently is nor did we want to foe 1860s no we didn't but there are some interesting things that could be done with the other roof particularly the one on the corner to still provide space for the occupant but to pull it down a bit so I'm interested in that as something more than a detail can we just step back for a second what I hear is that we have an agreement that we are comfortable with the scale and the massing of course we'd like to if it could be smaller and we're at situate on the lot and we would like to ask the applicant to come back with a more detailed that we need before we can issue us a ticket of appropriateness to vote one way or the other and it's going to look like and we are going to ask them to come back with a more detailed visual and I guess I, as not an architect I can't say well I want to see I think at this stage we have some suggestions and I've made one which as I've said hip I think and then the partial hip which is a little more elegant and more expensive way of doing things might be an approach that would improve things I'm only trying to not really speaking to myself here so much as offering approaches that may find favor with with you all another is the around the main street and look at the main entry there's a little gable there which is really just there to as Bill pointed out to alert us to the fact that something needs to be there because it's an entry and today of all days it would make it very clear as to why it's important I was wondering whether she's brought my wife out but but another way of doing that which you might find favor with folks is to bring this route plane straight down but at a lower angle so that it comes out and then shoots the snow out and basically I create a diminish or a more frankly stale I mean something like that might also be a way of that entrance in a way that would actually get all of the snow out of the entrance rather than pushing some of the bangles and also at the same time bring the scale down to where people feel good so there's two thoughts, those two thoughts but if we have other thoughts we could prepare them and if we don't we could leave it to the skill of being something to read our minds some difference I don't know what texture is it's just not all just a solid some detail where you sometimes have one direction and scales great for life exactly I was just thinking they would be losing square footage on that floor but actually that's a storage in the second floor second part of the one near to Grey Street if they tip the roof in I like the idea of keeping the Greek revival style which is predominant in that neighborhood and you have it in some of the earlier plans that's what I was thinking too it gives it a sense of elegance it's your sense of scale not that creating a faux H940 but using that as the matching model as the guide I'd like to go back to something I said way back at the meeting for all of this the image of young people coming and going from these builders working the creative work that's useful their development and the town all of that funding is so motivating and so pleasing to know that we're in such agreement with that as a board at least that's my sense of it about the board so it's a little bit like and it feels like it would be better but it was like coming back to summer vacation suddenly there were these high-rise apartments in the center of town how did that happen this is not that this is not happening that way and for all the pain the anguish the exhaustion that you were bringing forward and trying to wrestle with it I think it will serve as well as the process moves forward with the support so that's good and I was kicking and screaming through the modern age you don't have things to change but to accommodate it has when they put the planter in the rotary it was like I mean there are ways that you get used to things and then they can become beautiful as part of your environment so what I've been looking for next would be real detail on the window treatments I am as I remain very concerned about the main street facade I'd like to see the detail of the entrance who did some very nice work on the entrance and earlier iterations where it was set back where the you know kind of gable came forward where you had a instead of steps you had a kind of that access so that makes that corner where the two buildings meet more interesting and complicated and not because they just kind of step together so I'm concerned about that I would like to imagine a good bit of glass in the opening to the portfolio I think that the more glass the better in terms of a modern more modern image on the main street side I am very concerned now of course that we put in the studio that there be real windows and that there be consideration with your with your client about how you might possibly have blackout curtains or whatever it would be so that they're not ghost windows because if you are maintaining that gray street look those are all real windows I don't know that the windows need to necessarily be the same on the west I mean the facade might differ I don't know what ideas you have I certainly am very concerned about the facade that would be seen from Triathlon I'm interested to see how you would be handling the pentamets for example I would be interested and I think in this case we could bring in at least two different versions of ways to handle the roof lines whether you wanted to do Ip at some point whether you wanted more detailed pentamets toward gray stream and however you wanted to do that it would save us all time if you could bring in several possibilities so that we could compare and contrast and say yeah this really works better than that we could go home and do it again and all come back so I am also interested in the materials that you plan to use in other cases we have actually seen examples of the materials the petitioners have come in with parts of windows with examples of what the siding will be so there's a great deal of work ahead of you lucky people and I would we really need to see it all before we can say yes two things just picking up on that I believe we need to eat it though so the western facade that's facing on Triangle Street you know just so it doesn't look like the back of a house that would normally have a fence behind it because that is going to be the visual from across unless you're going to have foliage that's hanging around just screen it but that you know I would ask that that be considered as even though it may feel like the back of the structure that it's going to be seen in Boston Green so that we don't have to pay attention to in terms of visual appearance yeah but oh in terms of also bringing the material in if I remember correctly the only other structure this commission has had to applicant that application has come before us for a whole structure that was on peace place and they actually showed us the visual of exactly what the house was going to look like it almost looked like a photograph so I guess we're thinking of that level of detail I mean it's really up to the commission but you know I think you know Bill you provided like a written specification and then some some images of what it could look like you know I think what the commission is saying they have like a little bit more than that whether it's you know I mean I think a photograph of something that you know was you know taken whether it's you know in a way that the commission can get a sense of the scale and proportion if it's the siding or quarter treatment I think a photograph can work yeah peace place did I was probably you know like a I don't know if it was a photoshopped thing but it was but you know I don't know I mean someone would be you know what you do with this model if you're going to continue to work with it or what your architectural plans are all based on show you know in terms of the detail you want to bring but I still think photographs can be really helpful I think for peace place I felt that I was looking at a facsimile of what was about to be built we had very strong suggestions it was even down to the color yes and the materials it really what we saw looked like a facsimile and that gave me confidence in the fit of that proposed new building to other places already on peace street and I would not have had that confidence otherwise we had concerns about size, mass, scope it was all pulled in there was major changes made from what they initially did but we had confidence in what we would see as the end of the problem that wouldn't be surprised by the end of the course okay so there's do you have any more need any advice oh we've got the time to test that have you ever done something that they've been talking about and would it be adding like detail instead of just dropping this into a model drop it into the google landscape so with the real landscape and real sighting it'd be something more like what you were saying I could find a visual object and send it to what we got into this place peace cave is it ready to generate more or less no problem what can these kids do can you do options can you just learn options not this program no we can't really go in we shouldn't have design by committee we should bring to you what we've done yes exactly but maybe I like it but what we're saying is maybe you could have two options that we can see this not to the extent you're talking about detail now that's exactly what we want to proceed because it's big money now and beyond our ability we could have to hire another kid to make this look like a picture we have to set I think the commission had asked for a different roof lot that came into the gable lens so that was something that was asked free to have a few different concepts shown for what could happen with the gable lens whether or not we could diminish somehow through you know whether it's a hip roof or something else I think it's our choice we wouldn't propose to you what we think what we feel is the right thing we're working with it we're living with it all day long the commission said that so I just want to it's not the new idea don't put it in the notes now we have to set the next meeting to a date soon I think we all need time and my question is how detailed is this next thing that how is it almost finished then because at that point then we really can't the challenge is as easily at what stage are we going to see I propose earlier that we do what's called design development which is the same level that's required for submissions of the zoning board or the plan for board to see what it's going to look like typically what we've done for the last 50 years are elevations drawings and if the elevations look good the building will look good if the elevations don't look good the building won't look good that's one thing take away I had from that exercise but if we can get our design development drawing which shows you the windows the landscaping and the grading if we can get that bumped up to a photograph type rendering I'd love to see it myself I do think architectural renderings and then photographs of what it looks like on a building could be fine too I'm not saying we have to go through the process of trying to put it on a 3D model that makes it realistic the p-space one may have been rendered rendering it wasn't as if they actually took a photoshopped it in so it was that I think it was more just like a nice render rendering so I do think that elevations and images can be fine it's efficient for the commission to understand what it looks like we can show that to you and then we're going to have to prepare for the planning board and then we can show you that presentation and I expect that we'll come back again and then one more time maybe not to the board but we will be submitting to the town for our permanent application and Rob Morar will look at it and say I want to review this with this board and again these particular details at that point it'll be a set of drawings ready for bidding and we'll know exactly what we're proposing and happy to review them if you're going to want a declaration on whether or not you have a certificate of appropriateness for that my sense is quite just saying at some point before you come in the last time we have declared a certificate of appropriateness presumably or not but let's say the person's thought we do and that likely would have some conditions and so you would be coming back to us and I think I'm speaking as much to my colleagues as I am to you coming back to us to demonstrate fidelity with the conditions so I think that's what we're going to be making a declaration on the appropriateness and just so everybody knows I'm going to Australia for 10 weeks in February the middle of February I did check that at four o'clock here it's 8am the next day there I'll talk to Kathy Shane because I know she checked into from Switzerland I didn't particularly want to do that so it would be good if this could be done by the fabric in my point where I probably don't be involved with that I mean it's really then up to that but what do you think is a good time frame to get back to we have to have the drawings engineered for the planning board we have to do the civil engineering that has to be really ironed out our one foot elevation all the stuff underneath it that makes it work before we would dare develop the drawings further so I don't know what I would guess it in a month or two depending on Bucky's schedule I mean please say like January, Monday, January 6th is that I don't ask if it's all right with you guys if it doesn't work we'll do it soon I'm asking Ed, do you think that Bucky would be I think so, the holidays come up and everything January has a few holidays too so I mean 6th seems like we can tweak it yeah would we be able to remind you not to call it a reschedule so the way this works is we have to continue to a date seren which is the 6th and then if that doesn't work someone will be here to open it and then continue to another the next date seren so the 6th it is so we'll just work on that we'll say 4pm I'll wait then, I know of that and thank you for telling us I'll be here on this I'm just going to see I think Bucky's got the most of it down already anyways he's got to revise what he did prior okay so we are leaving I need to check up the commission I just see that thing out there that would be our regular meeting that would be our regular meeting right okay so we just we will continue, we don't close the meeting we will continue at 4pm do anybody else anything else that comes in before 4pm okay so we will continue Monday January 6th at 4pm wish everyone happy holidays happy new year thank you thank you Clay this is an example of UMass and all in favor of adjourning thank you Clay