 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we are discussing something which is of critical importance. On the 31st of July for this month, the national register of a SAM, the final list will be published and it will be made public. The fate of about 42 lakh residents of the state is at stake. And it also fundamentally changes how we view ourselves as Indian citizens. The NRC does not have implications simply for the state of a SAM but for the rest of the country as well. And to discuss this and to talk about the kind of implications that the register will have, we have with us Dr. Hiren Gohan. He is somebody who does not need an introduction but for our viewers he is a poet, a literary critic, he is a social scientist but more importantly he is somebody who is very well connected with the essence of the state and its politics. Thank you so much sir for joining us and for speaking with us about this turbulent time that it is for the state and like you were mentioning earlier for the country as well. So I want to begin by explaining to our viewers as to the kind of implications that the NRC will have on the state and the atmosphere that the state is currently witnessing if you could tell us more about that. Thank you for having me with you to discuss problems in a SAM, problems of a SAM which find very little space unless there is violence in the so-called national media you see. The NRC was not the as contentious issue when it began as it has become now. The process started in I think 2006 or something and before that through various turbulent events as you have said you know violence, massacres and displacements, two communities involved here, the immigrant Muslims and the indigenous people of a SAM including the Assamese and the tribals, they came to an understanding that the very tangled question of citizenship in a SAM you know which had rocked the state for years and which had at one time led to uncontrollable horrific violence you know that the NRC was some sort of an answer to these problems you know that once a certain person is identified as a genuine citizen no question no further question should be asked and then everybody will be able to settle down with without anxiety and resume their daily business of life. But what happened was something unexpected. But let me say one thing that the immigrant Muslims throughout the 90s ever since the Assamic order signed were actually very hostile to the idea for their own reasons which may be justified or not it depends on the way you look at it but they were bitterly critical and vehemently opposed to it. Yes. But because of the destlessness, the chaos, the uncontrollable violence, their leaders came around to accepting the Assamic order. And once the Assamic, accept the Assamic order in 1971 at the cut of fear because it was a time when Bangladesh was born you know and that you know people who say Syab Relief thought that there was a solution around the corner now because the Muslims are on the same pace and from all sides there was a demand that an NRC should be prepared. But nobody had foreseen the difficulties, enormous and complex problems that might arise. Nobody had foreseen it. For example documentation as you know our common people have very little idea of official documents you know. And as you know you know in general they keep some distance from officers and officials as far as possible. And if and when they produce a document it is not very thoroughly scrutinized or examined unless there are gross mistakes. But the NRC process involves very close scrutiny and many of the even the indigenous people not to talk of immigrants don't have any documents at all. Yes. About their claims to their land, about their school certificates decent that they don't have any. So that was the problem nobody had foreseen. And that's scrutinizing it, verifying it, finding it wrong, then forcing the man to run from pillar to post you know. These were circumstances nobody had imagined you know. And there are I should say vested interest you know. Of course. Of all hues. That seized the opportunity to create a row. It's a very interesting thing that you're pointing out which is that the same anxieties that they were trying to sort of settle with the NRC are again resurfacing. Upon the interests of multiple political parties the BJP has said that they are expecting they are going to try to push the NRC to be a national kind of a register. So do you see this turning into a more as to a plank of polarization? You see I mean they have discovered that this would be a very useful ploy. Yeah. To polarize society to demonize certain community and create mayhem you know from which they expect to profit. So they of course are taking full advantage of it and some people are willingly playing their game. And that is what is happening in Assam also. And the religious and ethnic Shravanism are being encouraged. And there are people in all communities who play along. While the common people are bewildered you know. They run this way or that. And they sometimes you know set their foot in traps. Yeah. And this is happening at the moment because the volatile situations are being created. Yeah. When the NRC had begun it was expected to have been a very peaceful process. Yes. But now it has become a very divisive thing. But still we some of us hope to maintain that it should go on in a fair way and the Supreme Court should heed the difficulties faced by the people squarely. Yeah. Not from a lofty height and ignoring the real difficulties faced by the people you know. And the way that is being conducted is very bureaucratic. And sometimes even mindless you know. Yes. Another thing that people are not aware of outside Assam. It is that at the same time parallely another process is being I know I mean sort of run. Yeah. That is the foreigners tribunals. Exactly. There used to be a few foreigners tribunals and every year 10, 20 people would be detected and you know declared as foreigners and they would be sort of some steps would be taken you know. And that was normal and it was expected to happen because if it is a border and people may come in. And now there are. Please let me continue. In recent times the foreigners tribunals have been made hyperactive. So that scores and probably hundreds of people are being declared foreigners. And once somebody is declared foreigners even if his name in there is in the NRC. Yeah. After every rigorous painstaking process you know. He is declared a foreigner at once. And he sent to the detention center whatever. That is I think very unfair. It's a double jeopardy for the common man. So these are things of course in my opinion that have a political reason that doesn't necessarily follow from the NRC you know. And we had expected it to have been every humane fair process because of the difficulties of the problem and the circumstances. The very fact that our common people have very little idea of documents and verification and all that thing sort of thing you know. But this didn't this has not happened. Yes. And we have a platform of conscious citizens. We have repeatedly taken it up. Repeatedly taken it up with the coordinator of the NRC Mr. Patek Hazella. Okay. We have met him at least six seven times raising these very problems and trying to maintain a non-communal Yes. Outlook about the whole thing and asking people to be patient and asking the authorities to be fair. And with the kind of protests there were a lot of protests in the state against the Citizenship Amendment Bill as well. And you for someone a tradition charges were pressed against you as well in the process. So how difficult was that and how turbulent are situations still for those conscious citizens to keep fighting. See it's a very puzzling thing. On the one hand the BJP reassures people again and again they will follow the Assam Accord to the letter. They are going to fulfill it. The Congress had mungled it or have neglected it. They are going to sort of you know turn it into reality. And now they say that they also want to get this cab to come in which is a very negation of the Assam Accord. So both these things are being maintained at the same time. And I don't know how people are persuaded that this can go together. But there have been protests about this you know and people very you know many Assam is national bodies you know. They call themselves national jatyat about the dissent there. They've also protested that this doesn't make any sense. You can't have it both ways you know. But the powers that they don't listen. And also you feel that there is an attack on these conscious voices? Of course they are. Because you know the very idea of fairness, very idea of justice equal justice for all. That is a promise of our constitution. That sticks in the gizzard of some people you know. And they want to normalize injustice. And in this process of sort of normalizing injustice like you were mentioning that there is a lot of bewilderment in the state. People are having to run from pillar to post. So how do you see this anxiety of course reaching a vantage point now because the date of the register is finally approaching. So what happens in the future? Very difficult to say. But you know there are some people who are insisting like the BJP. There are all these 44 million people. Must all be foreigners. And they also want to cherry pick out of them you know in those as apart from Muslims you know. Which goes against the idea of citizenship in India as we understand it. And you know this is a situation that is going to be very difficult in times ahead you know. But I hope that people will keep patience because impatience, adventurism and mindless violence and rage will only serve the purpose of the perpetrators of injustice. Absolutely. So that is the kind of appeal. That is the kind of appeal you know. Once violence starts you know then injustice is very it becomes normal you know. And in the name of peace you can impose injustice. Which is a very dangerous sort of a very dangerous set of situations. And this kind of a situation being extended to the whole country. I don't see how they are going to do that. It's a threat. It's a threat and it's a kind of threat looming over the heads of the of a certain community. Making them insecure, making them dependent and craven, craven supporters of the government. I hope they don't you know acquiesce. They must assert their rights as citizens of India. And the very idea of what it means to be citizens of India is something that is now being discussed. I mean I think you know the constitution itself is quite clear about it. Yeah and whatever problems are there there are problems everywhere. Migration has become an international problem now. So every country every state is facing it. And the humane solutions are being worked out. But people like Trump also they're also against it. Yes. There is an attempt to world over to normalize repression, oppression and make violence the character of the state. And all democratic people must stand against it. Opposedly. And I think that's what we should all we all should do. Yeah. It's a it's a very strong message that you have sent that there is violence and there are attempts which are being made to normalize violence and injustices and be it the US or be it the state of Sam in India. But we all must stand against this kind of normalization of violence. And we will end this broadcast with this note and with this appeal to our viewers as well. And we will keep tracking the issue of the NRC in the state and we will keep bringing you more updates from there. Thank you so much for joining us and for giving us this very detailed understanding in a limited amount of time. Thank you so much for giving me a hearing at all. Thank you.