 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Bucci Lotto here in studio with my co-conspirator Scott Bernstein Hey now Jimmy the intrepid investigative reporter Scott Bernstein. We're super excited for today's episode we are joined by Carter Smith Dr. Carter Smith who is a retired US Army CID special agent. He is also a professor of criminal justice at Middle Tennessee State University and I met Dr. Smith a few years ago when I was doing my training at the National Gang Crime Research Center in Chicago and I was just really influenced by his research and I've incorporated it into my own classes and lesson plan So once we started the podcast this was something a goal of mine for a long time now was to have him on our podcast and We're happy to have him here. Welcome Dr. Smith. Mr. Smith. Thank you for joining us Good to be here. Thanks a lot. Yeah, and so so the One of his specializations and one of the things we want to talk about is his book that came out a few years ago Gangs in the military gangsters bikers and terrorists with military training And this was the the class that he taught that I that I was studying under him in Chicago So that's going to be the main subject of today's discussion Gangs in the military and his expertise before we turn it over to dr. Smith. I called him mr. Smith I apologize mr. Smith not going to wash it in here. We got dr. Smith coming to Detroit via zoom Yeah, talk to us about gangs in the military. I've been called that by students and I don't take it first But you know, I'll just give a quick Precursor to this conversation or preamble that I think one of the things that we're really proud of at the original gangsters podcast is that we Find, you know layers and nuance and context to the You know, the blood and guts that everybody That gets sensationalized that the stuff that you you see in movies or you see Splashed across your front page of your newspaper Which is fine and dandy and I'm not saying that I'm not interested by that because I am but I think these kind of conversations and these kind of guests where we're getting into like the nook the nooks and crannies and exposing and highlighting aspects of organized crime that people either don't know or don't know a lot about or Again, you don't know you don't know and you wouldn't necessarily think When you talk about the military that there would be a big gang presence But there is much more of a organized crime Influence and we can kind of break that down and define what that means In the u.s. Military that I think the average u.s citizen would could could ever dream of yeah, that's right I think this this topic is so important. So um Carter tell us about how did you first get interested in this uh This topic and then we'll then we'll focus more on your specific research But just in general how did you get interested in this? I I first came across the military training of gang members or the connection between gangs and the military In the very early 90s 91 92 I was being proactive in my criminal investigations with another agent or investigator and We were we were investigating a rash of parking lot break ends on fork Campbell, Kentucky And we realized that not unlike today people left their cars in parking lots with important stuff in them And then were oh my god shocked that somebody came grabbed their unlocked door Reached into their car and stole their put put name of of expensive item in here at the time I think it was dvds or maybe cd players or whatever Anyway, uh pocket books and the like now it's guns or haven't we progressed But anyway, we decided to do a little bit of proactive work police work and we went to parking lots And we would pull on door handles. We would pull up on door handles or push in buttons I remember we had to figure out which it was before you do it Otherwise, you'll jerk the knob off or the handle off and you actually actually did that But we would stick notes inside the cars Kind of like a warning note It was official and we all turned it up and we quit when we when we handed out 100 that that night And we would stick a note in there saying and then we would lock the door behind it We would say it was something along the lines of Uh We we got into your car lucky for you were the police and we let this note locked up behind something similar that was the message We did that for a few nights on a few different days of the week And I never forget on a Thursday night We were in one of the larger parking lots on post And we saw that we weren't the only people who were grabbing door knobs and pushing buttons And so we took our badges showed them to the other two and asked for their badges and they said You know, we don't have no stinking badges Or something like that So we showed them our handcuffs and we took them to the police station and we Asked them what they were doing long story short. They said they were in the I don't remember what it was gang And we paid attention to that because Last time I checked a gang is nothing more than an organization that meets the criminal code for conspiracy And so we're two or more three or more, whichever, you know, however you want to go by it People agree to commit a crime and one does something in the furtherance of it. You have a conspiracy Well, we had that but we figured we dig a little deeper into it And we realized that this was there was a group that the group that we stopped was was Family members of military service members who were affiliated with a gang that had popped up off Into Clarksville, which is the Tennessee side of Fort Campbell So we investigated got a little bit Interested and talked police officers on both sides of the state line for Campbell Dyssex basically Tennessee and Kentucky state line We talked to some folks in Kentucky some folks in Tennessee Very little recognition of gangs. This was the early 90s. There wasn't a gang problem Even if there was a gang problem because they didn't have a solution We got to Nashville and Louisville. We had more of an indication. So we started Gathering information and we did what I think just about any startup gang investigator team does We would learn stuff. We would collect it and then we would share it And we'd share it with obviously other law enforcement agencies in the local area But then we shared it with the non-commissioned officers and officers in the military We basically would say here's some signs that your soldiers might be in a gang Whether it's street gang domestic terrorist group outlaw motorcycle gang We don't care because it's an affiliation that's contrary to the military Please let us know if you see any of these indicators And so we just started collecting that information and before too long people were asking us to stop fishing and teach them how to fish So in based on your experience, um If you could tell us about what are some of the other prominent Gangs that you find Represented in our the the different branches of the military right now. I mean, I I know what they are because I study your research For our audience what what would uh, you know now that you're an expert on it. What are you finding? Well, the the short answer is every major criminal gang whether it's a street gang or an outlaw motorcycle gang or the military Starting in well until 2012 Lump them all into a category, but domestic terrorist extremists were also incorporated into that now with a recent shift Uh, they've actually I just got the 2020 report. They're a little delayed in their in their responses to FOIA requests Um, and they had had removed all evidence of any domestic extremists as of 2020 I don't know if covid took that out or I don't know. I'm joking. Yeah, right I I've just requested 21 and 22 and we'll see how that comes about but Every major street gang and every major outlaw motorcycle gang has been represented in the military at one time or another and I dare say I put a paycheck to paycheck that they're still in this very moment There's a representative if we were if we were to find truthful responses The most recent report that I'm looking at right now has for example the four corner hustlers The eight trade gangsters the conservative vice lords the black gangster disciples the bloods the crypts Uh ms. 13 vatos locos Um, I'm just calling off the big ones. Not even you know, um, you know, carter. I believe I did blood nation on the west coast grips Carter, I believe that in the last couple months that my memory is just being jogged but because I am someone that studies the gangster disciples pretty heavily and in contact with a lot of federal law enforcement out of chicago because that's the gangster disciples headquarters That's where they were founded. Um, but in the last 30 40 years or 35 years They've expanded greatly around the country and they are definitely sprinkled in quite a bit Into the military. I believe in the last couple months. There was a bust uh, I think down in atlanta of gangster disciples and just My my numbers might be a little fuzzy, but I believe like there were 12 indicted and like eight of the 12 were active military What wouldn't surprise me. I mean just recent. Well in the past couple of years, uh, there have been Uh cases, I don't know that it was convictions, but they're definitely charges Uh, I just talked to uh, one of the chicago stations here recently um about Fort Campbell soldiers doing straw purchases basically of guns and taking them up to chicago because Because chicago gangsters can't get their guns from anywhere else for pizzas But the the soldiers out in out in colorado have done the same thing in the past the gangster disciples For for as your example, uh, they may not be the biggest gang, but they are two things that I know of they are number one the most populated in the military of aware members of gangsters in other words if you if you go through and talk to people who've come across gang Members in the military. I dare say the gangster disciples would be at the top of their list numerically speaking number two They're one of just a handful of third generation gangs that that sullivan and bunker talked about I don't know if you you or your listeners are familiar with those third generation gangs to me aren't it's not it's not Father grandfather son anything like that. It's it's iterations or evolutions of gangs It's they've been around so long that they aren't limited obviously to cook county chicago That they aren't limited to the the state boundary of illinois hell They are limited to the canadian border nor the mexican border nor the continent nor nothing else And there's only a handful of those and and honestly it's them and the vice lords and it's not the bloods in the cribs Yeah, and so these are corporate moda salvatrucha and 18th street are the only other four that are typically in north america And there was only a handful of them that these guys identified Sullivan and bunker they do the Small wars journal among other things the one one segment of the small wars journal anyway I looked at that and it was like okay, so this answers a lot of questions that nobody's asking for example Why don't we know what gangsters are doing in the military? Well because they're smart enough to know out to where they're freaking colors under the uniform Right because they know that that when they used to tap their or put a little tat above their eyeball Or if they used to cut little swipes in there in there in their right eye ball or right eye Whatever it is that eyelash Yeah, or the or the left eye or whatever they they used to bang right or left or throw down certain numbers Or tat this or tat that seven four two and People figure that out the cops figure that out They decide they crack the code and they figure out how to do it and they share that with folks So the gangster said, you know what it's like the omg is doing soft colors. Yeah, let's just go blank now We'll wear white t-shirts and and everybody else knows who we are. It's like shirts and skins for a basketball game I'm this is a small digression, but I'm wondering if if carter smith who's an expert on this Uh Recognized what I'm about to throw out there Super Bowl halftime show Snoop Dogg. Yeah, the crib was clearly clearly Representing the Crips. Yeah in that Um in that halftime show And you know, his excuse was that he was you know was repping the la ram's colors But in reality, you know, there was no doubt snoop was going to roll out uh in front of tens of millions of people If not more Repping that the blue colors of the Crips, which he is You know repped since he was a young man actually went on trial for murder um related to uh A gang related homicide that he was acquitted of But did you notice that when you were watching the Super Bowl or if you were watching the Super Bowl? Yeah, I I watched that I don't think he was the only celebrity doing that by the way I think he had a posse. Yeah Strategically placed. Yeah, I just I put it to this way I think the blood's the Crips the gang who had the leadership of the gangster disciples the vice lords the Montessava, Tucha and 18th street to an extent because they're their home bases back home and in central america, but the large gangsters are are Taking have taken solid notes from organized crime Gangsters of a hundred years ago and they've mixed that with the Multimedia show that we put together today so much so that I dare say they are no longer I teach an organized crime class. I'll be teaching it this fall I was going over my notes just to refresh because I I like pondering things through the summer Leading up to that so I can point out things like you just did for the for the students to think Oh, that's yeah, that makes sense. And I and one of the main disclaimers that I start on is look The course may be called organized crime But I want you to think of this as organized business Because but for that thought of the criminal act stopping me and you from doing it These guys think way These aren't dumb ass idiots sit. Can I say that? Sit on the back of a pickup truck or a low rider not knuckle draggers Smoking a smoking a blunt and and and hurting themselves with a knife because they don't have anything better Dude, no these are geniuses who won't use their own product But they're selling the hell out of fentanyl and meth and coke and all this other good stuff And they're smart enough to never mess a piss test because they work for the state or the federal government for pizzex These are brilliant people who just happened to commit crime And that was the part that when when I started realizing the gds were third generation and they were Saturated in the military. That's when I realized that Local cops got no chance of identifying these guys if the military hasn't already because local cops I'm not saying there's they don't do their job. I'm saying these guys are going to be so far They're going to be more removed from from any killing or anything else in hoover is in his in his prison in colorado So yeah, larry hoover The leader founder of the gangster disciples has been in prison since 1973 Yeah, for most of his followers. Yeah first-degree homicide the group was founded in 66 67 by him and david barksdale and You know without question larry hoover if we're talking about street gangs in america the single most prominent prolific street gang boss without question is larry hoover Uh, and I think it also speaks when we're talking about The infiltration of the u.s. Military It's you know and playing off of what dr. Smith just said about how these guys are You know criminal masterminds and you don't necessarily give them enough credit But larry hoover and I think this again this speaks to the organization as a whole larry hoover has been running that group since night or since 1960s. He's been running it from Prison cells since 1973 right and instead of getting weaker The group has gotten stronger and stronger and stronger and more widespread and more Intertwined into legitimate business and parts of the government. So, you know if if they're able to keep That organization has buttoned up and focused and diversified As they have and the guy that's the ultimate shotcaller like, uh, dr. Smith pointed out earlier in the show larry hoover's locked up 23 hours a day yeah in Supermax in colorado It just shows you like in the in the government believes right now because he is the target of an active federal racketeering Case right now as we speak spring of 2022 that this guy Could have done everything or this organization would become everything that it became With this one person that's the the the master puppeteer Being locked up for over almost 50 years it just speaks to to the resiliency, I guess Of the games or reminds you of the italians of like guys like karmal harcico that same thing their lifers And yet they're still calling the shots behind But you went from an organization that when larry hoover and david barksdale started it you had a couple hundred people Now their estimates are that the games for disciples Are you know number well over 25,000 across the country? Yeah, that's you know, that's Impressive in in addition to that this also and I I'm not I'm not I'm not a myth buster by training But I do whenever I see one glaring I I call it out I I started in the early 90s when we started seeing this gang thing I said okay, but I got it I got to know where I'm going to start and where I'm going to stop And having been a juvenile delinquent myself I got called out and one by one of my childhood friends read the book the gang's the military book He said wait a second. You were a juvenile delinquent. We were friends. What does that make me? I said one of my co-comparators, you know but but I don't waste my time Trying to figure out how to fix juvenile gangsters They either fix themselves or they graduate and and I and I again my students. They're 18 to 25 typically I I walked them through this in their memory. Do you remember when you turned 18 or Do you remember when you realized you were 18? It's the same feeling It's just might be a little bit of a delay on day 18 If you do something that's beyond stupid You can be arrested and you don't get a second chance You are now an adult young man or young woman and you are going to pay the price And you know every gangster that's a that's a youth gang member or a juvenile gang member They go through that process. I don't care how I don't care why they joined the gang They joined it because they need family. They join it because they need hugs They join it because they ain't got their ass beat enough in high school They join it for whatever reason or love or or or or or And then on day 18, they have a revelation. They're like, okay Now I might have been doing some bad stuff, but this is zero day for the rest of my life I'm an adult. I don't even start caring about whether they're gangsters until then because that's a career move Because that's a sellout because that's going forward not saying. Oh, I might go back to my Non law abiding or to my law abiding self. I I might I might shift gears. I might be fixable. I might be Trainable. I'm at no dumbass. You just graduated. Welcome to the park. You can either get out or you can I mean when when when pulling levers came in and they started targeting above Above 18 people. It was like dude. You better start at 16 and 17 See if you can get a track record by threatening them with Incarceration that that's what that goal is. Where do you get off? How would you we're going to threaten you with what you're looking for because then you can Make a lot of money and cook county prison Yeah, that that's something I talk about with my students With with yeah, I'm gonna always finish. I was going to say that with in some cases To be incarcerated is gives you some street credit because it first of all it proves that you can You're tough enough to handle it, but it also proves that you're not a snitch Right when guys have not been incarcerated all of a sudden people start to wonder why isn't why isn't so-and-so never They never get pinched Right, maybe they're right. So so if you do some time that proves that not only you're a tough guy But you're not you're not cooperating in in some form. So yeah, some of the dudes young dudes Like it's it's like a rite of passage to you know get pinched. How do you connect that? to What we see in the military I mean, do you see guys that are 18 year olds Or 17 year olds that that get in front of a judge and the judge is like you either going to prison you're going To the military they go to the military But in some ways it's the same thing that's going to prison To to this day and I'll tell you that that was known to be done around the vietnam time I came in the army right after vietnam and that was a known and accepted thing Up until that time and then for some reason it wasn't I think it's because we went to an all volunteer army But that's that's just my that's just my guess But we still have judges in our larger areas especially and some in our rural areas who will tell a young man See the army or it's the military and sometimes they'll pick a marine. It doesn't matter whoever's low on Numbers they will call the recruiter I I I've got stories of folks showing up to basic training and getting handcuffs taking off taking off Wow, but are the but are those some of the people that are bringing the the gang Atmosphere well into the military To be complete in that thought the vast majority of people who joined the military in order to get out of the gang Succeed as best as I can tell But the vast majority isn't who I'm concerned with And I'm concerned with the small number that don't And I'm concerned with the small number that only were Associates or just slightly interested in the gang until they got in the military And they realized it's not a full-time job after all It's like oh, maybe a nine or ten hour day job unless we're deployed and even then you get time off And then all this extra time I could use my brain and stuff and then years down the road or maybe days weeks or months There might be a former gang affiliated person Meeting with another former gang affiliated person and they get that knowing look Right, and it's like wait. Where was you where would you serve right air quotes? Well, I was rolling 60s neighborhood correct. Oh, no shit. I was a I was a deuce a five deuce whatever They could be in rival gangs that on the street would kill each other But the bond between those two just became tighter in an instant than anything else on the planet That and the military connection and they're they're gonna own it and the dumb ass lieutenant that's in charge of them He thinks he taught them loyalty. What are you kidding? No, no, dude. You had nothing to do with that. Go back to west point Yeah, that's it. So what types of crimes do we in your research? You you've already mentioned Um, you know auto theft, you know, kind of petty theft larceny. What are some of the other crimes that you're documenting? Um, because because someone could say oh, well, there's gangs in the military But if they're if they're not doing anything wrong, well based on your research They they continue their organized criminal activities. I guess drugs play a big role in it Yeah, it's been said by the fbi who may or may not know but 80 percent of the crimes in america are 80 percent of the drug crimes in america have a gang connection I don't know that that changes in the military all I I I can't imagine now I will tell you that one of the things the military has gotten really really good at it is downplaying The impact of gang members on the military. They say well, it's less than x percent or whatever like that These are the same people and they're they're talking about for law enforcement reports It's a felony report that's got a certain amount of Of juice attached to it and they count those and they say well, it's below five percent below two percent or whatever They're the same ones that will count a piss test as an actual report So don't talk to me about there's no gang affiliation That I went to scotland yard for crime scene managers, of course many years ago And I learned a phrase that is it should be used more in in in normal conversation But it's real basic. You don't look you don't find In 2003 9 11 was over 9 11 didn't cause the gangs to shut down in 2003 A couple of congressmen asked for some prompting that maybe I may or may not have something to do with But I know that folks that were deep into it. They said hey, do we have a gang problem? There were there was a murder in germany and a murder in alaska and they reached out and they said Hey, do we have a gang problem in the military? Hell, we just looked in 95 after tim and timothy mcvay and some other things hit the fan Why wouldn't we still be looking while we stopped looking because of 9 11? So in 2003 we were Yeah, 2003 we looked back at the previous year 2002 and when we weren't looking we still found gang members And then in 2004 when we looked at 2003 data low and behold there was but they hadn't been told to go look They just realized that oh you asked for a report last year. I bet you can ask for a report this year Let's go see if we can find something It was there. What do you know? Right? It hasn't gone away. This is every decade Since before the united states was the united states. We've had military trained gang members on this continent The oldest one I found this and you may have seen it in the book the oldest one Was a captain in the revolutionary war militia He'd be he got a captain. He was a juvenile delinquent in Philadelphia he got out of the military and he became a river pirate And I don't mean I don't mean, you know, blimey. There we go. Johnny's that kind of stuff I'm talking this dude up and down the oh or excuse me left or right on the Ohio and up and down the Mississippi He was killing people for their property so he could take it down to New Orleans and sell it Because that's where people were going from the northeast down to New Orleans And then he got smart. He must have had an advisory council He got smart and he decided to stop at the bottom of the nachos trace He said why should I steal their property and sell it? Old-time fences, right? They got give you 10 10 cents on a dollar. He said I'll just wait till they sell it And I'll get all their money Brilliant strategy, especially the nachos trace that doesn't have any kind of law enforcement any more than the Ohio or the Mississippi did So it's not it's not gone away. And that's the problem that I that I see is I got commanders through I I don't want to tell people I have a gang problem Dude, you didn't create this monster. You didn't create the the environment that they they they grow like that And it's a poison or it's a cancer. You can treat it either way you want to or you can treat it like dog crap You don't want to eat it. You don't want to consume it Right, but if you didn't create the problem go find out who did fix the solution not the symptoms Where do where do the outlaw biker gangs play in this milieu of military gang gang gang affairs They basically they're parallel because federal law calls them the same thing as street gangs. It's the wildest thing Uh, and they kind of connect Outlaw motorcycle gang members even when the military and I when I say military I'm talking about all the branches, but army cid where I was they're the reigning champion for lack of a better term because everybody else is smaller than they are and they all point to them Go ask cid. It's like why they don't know nothing But when they were when they have reported intentionally looked to gang to report on outlaw motorcycle gang members They haven't found but a fraction Of what they found with street gangs not looking It's the craziest thing now. It's a numbers game for starters. There are more clearly more street gangs Members, yeah, then there are a lot bike and there are a lot, but could the could the outlaws be dangerous Yeah, here's the other thing until just recently until the 2020 report. They would always say that the majority of Outlaw motorcycle gang members are old white dudes Well, they didn't use those terms that's that's a false narrative, but yeah No, and this year they actually realized. Oh, no, wait, there's more black guys on bikes now. Holy crap It's neither of those are true. Yeah, what they mean to say is When we weren't really looking this is what we stumbled across what it means is you have a bunch of rookies But that the old white guys are senior nco's I don't know how they got caught. I think they got cocky or confident Maybe had one more reenlistment and they couldn't get kicked out unless they committed a felony or something like that But all they're they're not gauging what's existing. They're gauging what they come across and they're not looking So why would that most of why would they be? Why would they claim it as fact? but the outlaws The outlaw gang to answer your question every Outlaw motorcycle gang But the outlaws was formed after world war two But every large every every one of the big outlaw motorcycle gangs, but the pagans as I recall were started by veterans Right, I was going to say let's let's make up like a correlation. Let's do a historical through line though here because the explosion Of the outlaw biker culture was in the years after vietnam and you had a lot of those Outlaws pagans hells angels in detroit highwaymen warlocks And so forth that were Bill I mean the the foundation of those groups were built on ex-military Right and the and the loyalty that comes with that and the camaraderie And and and all the all the bonus points in the military you had that And and now they aren't even waiting till they get out to to fly colors And I'd be a don't be soft colors They're putting t-shirts on that are the right color underneath their uniforms, but it's the same gang I'd be interested to see numbers right now with over the last 20 years Guys that are coming out of Serving in iraq serving in afghanistan. How many of those guys gravitated to to outlaw miker outlaw biker groups I mean I can speak from my research Most of my my biker reporting is here in detroit. I do a little bit of pagans out of philadelphia but I know from my research here that there is a very Vocal definitive younger generation Yes, that is being You know guys that are in their 20s and 30s That are being groomed by the og's that are in their 60s and 70s And it's not it's it's different than the italian mafia I've noticed I've noticed in the italian mafia in the last 20 years You have a lot less of a recruiting pool But I don't I obviously don't have analytics on this or any metrics on this But just the eye test when I've been around biker clubs and been I mean I I don't know if it was if it's an honor or a privilege, but I I've had some interactions with big-time vikers here in detroit being introduced to Presidents and being invited to their clubhouse and I noticed that there it wasn't just a bunch of old white guys with beards right I mean nor is the vfw not that there's any bikers of the vfw, but you get my point Yeah, and in specific or veterans of different ages now and specifically I think this When up the anecdote i'm about to give I think Plays into what we're talking about with gangs in the military It's not a direct correlation, but I think there is a correlation there I'm not going to name the the biker group or the biker boss, but I sat with a very very big biker boss of a very very big gang Who said to me We're all about stealth now We're not going to be out there with our beards and our tattoos and our colors And this guy was put in as president to start that Shift and if you looked at if I brought this guy I don't know what he looks like now, but I met him five years ago or six years ago If I brought that guy five or six years ago in front of you You would have had no idea that this guy Was a biker boss and it was intentional Yeah, so a um speak on the on the on the topic of olem g said jimmy may have met the guy that introduced me He's out of uh over in pennsylvania Introduced me did he Yes Introduced me to a leader in one of the big the big five And then I met him another occasion But when I when I met him in in pennsylvania, we went on had dinner And as you can imagine, you know anybody that you you you try to connect with him And it's like okay here. I am 20 something years veteran military And this guy no military biker about the same age And we hit we didn't hit it off because that would be you know, unacceptable. I'm just kidding But but I we both realized that we were having ease of conversation And I mentioned it and I said, you know, I said but and I I put it in context I said, you know, I had a brother-in-law that I don't talk to now because it's a bad influence on everybody Breeds the same era as I said But when he started dating my sister-in-law I realized that I was so glad we didn't grow up together because both of us would have been in jail not just him And I said I get the same vibe from you. It's like I you know I'm glad we're more mature having met the first time because I think we could do some danger And I would probably been the one hang out hung out to dry And he said well, that's because of what we have in common and I didn't think of it that way I love it when somebody else throws a different perspective. I said, what do you see that we have in common? He said we're both warriors at heart That's great Right. I said, oh, yeah, you just stripped all the crap away And you went right to the core. Yeah, it doesn't matter does it Um, I was a I was a criminal investigator and they offered me to go to college full time I was like wait, wait, wait, wait. I don't number one too good to be true But number two, I'm gonna I love investigations. I was doing drug work I was doing white crime white color crime. I was doing a variety of I may miss that too much Oh, no, I did a ton of research and you know what your hands stay a lot cleaner And your your mind is just as challenged. I went to law school I went to work as a law clerk while you're in school because that's what they do They actually hired me for my investigative skills. They just paid me as a law clerk. So I was broke but One of the one of the guys in there had worked for the dea and there was another cop in there Both lawyers now and they were joking with me called me called me aside and said hey Carter Just so you know, you ain't gonna find it. What are you talking about? They jerked me around a little bit like what ain't gonna find it? Why you even bother looking, you know, like that What am I looking for that? I ain't gonna find the adrenaline rush What do you mean the adrenaline rush? You know When you're interviewing a guy and you've been in there for an hour and a half and you know, he's lying and You know, he knows he's lying and you know, he knows you got him into a corner And you're about looking for that shoulder shrug and that sigh Or maybe you're doing a drug deal and you know, you just gave the signal and that Whatever it is that you get that you won't find that practicing law Well Fast forward. I'm not practicing law. I'm teaching college with my law degree in a variety of other things. That wasn't why but I It's it's these are transferable skills and that's bring that back to my my earlier comment about but for that whole criminal thing uh George Knox the director of the national gang crime research center About the time I was seeing the problems in Fort Campbell in the early 90s Had a survey done of national guard soldiers in the chicago area And one of the questions he asked them is To put this into perspective, you know the the term ducks when used about gang members, right? If it walks like a duck talks like a duck walks like it must be a duck I actually found out who actually who originally said that when you're in academic writing about stuff You actually had to find the original source um, anyway, I I I would say that he was interviewing duck experts Right. These are people in and around south side of chicago. They know what gangsters are, right? And they were asking them. Uh, he was asking them a variety of questions. But the most poignant question was Do you think that the gang leaders that you know that are in the military would do well in any field doing anything? And oh overwhelmingly, absolutely. It's a transferable skill set You just have to have that integrity piece and if you're missing that it depends on what you know Who you're who you're backstabbing or who you're undermining or whatever At the deck covers all the groups. Yeah, I mean, I think um, based on my research, um Especially with outlaw bikers why they they may feel comfortable is um When they when they're um, you know, they come home and they're they're missing that There's no war to fight. Right. Right. There's no right. There's no they're missing. There's no that action to go Uh, commandeer. There's no right and and then the other irony which I think why they they're so comfortable in the in the outlaw Biker culture is on the one hand you get that adrenaline rush and as you were talking about there's there's a part of its attitude like being the warrior but also ironically even though they're outlaws the biker Clubs are very hierarchical and a lot of rules and regulations And I think that's what the military guys feel feel comfortable They feel comfortable in that environment. That's why they call Chapter meetings church, right? Right. So so like that that idea that idea They've already been indoctrinated by that in the military that Um, there's rules and regulations and protocols And so it's ironic that the outlaw bikers on the streets, they're hellraisers But within their own organizations It's very much about For a group I've always said or outlaw bikers in general My research my personal exposure factor tells me that these guys are the fringe of the fringe Which is interesting when you reconcile that with The fact that the groups themselves. Yes are quite disciplined. Yes, right in terms of their hierarchy I'm interested to to throw this out throw this out to you dr. Smith because it's You know bubbling in my head as we're having this conversation And it it literally just crystallized in the last couple minutes So I don't know if you're aware, but the pagans Uh are in the midst of an expansion effort that is known as the blue wave a term that was coined by The godfather of the pagans From about 2017 to last summer Known as conan the barbarian Keith Richter out of new york city or sorry out of long island For people that don't know the pagans it's a group that's normally been led out of pennsylvania either Pittsburgh or penns or philadelphia For a while, I think it was led out of virginia. It was founded in maryland, but those are the main Areas so Richter came in Uh took power by force and a bloodless coup Uh in the end of 17 And when he I think around Christmas new years of 17 He held a meeting and he announced that we are Going to take the country by storm and in the last four years there's been about 15 to 20 new Pagans chapters opened in areas that pagans have never been in before um, they're they're moving West and southwest um, and there has been Violence that has followed them Uh a shooting in texas last year a murder, um In uh, oklahoma So my question to you is and this is what was percolated in my head It seems that If you were conan the barbarian or you were the person that was Um igniting this expansion effort It might it might be a smart move To use the military as a way to expand your reach Right, because if you're in the military, you're going to be everywhere dispatched to right uh different military bases Around the country we just found out that the pagans Uh a couple months ago. We just found out the pagans have chapters now in Oregon And washington state they'd never moved that far Yeah west before yeah, yeah tell us about how they can export using the military to like network and export Yeah, and I have no I have no first-hand knowledge or even second-hand knowledge That they're trying to use the military but as i'm thinking about it others have yeah You think that that could be a a card that they could play yeah It yeah, it easily could be and they've got two different ways to do well three actually They can put somebody in the military and tell them all those tats are meaningless tell the recruiter all this other good stuff Kind of hard to do it's easier to recruit people who've already got the military mindset and all that good stuff They could also put them in as a husband of a female military member Or what there seemed to be doing a little bit more than that and I've been In the past three years. I'm in my second expert witness work on on For the military well one four and one not so four but uh, I they as contractors and the military Law enforcement has started to look more at contractors not that they're hunting hunting for them But when they see them they at least write it down and report it to command and when I get the request Fulfilled I get to see them But I will tell you that I can't remember a year that I haven't seen the pagans in the list of omg's or support clubs that are involved in criminal intelligence or law enforcement reports in the military And to add to that since 2014 Um, I I realized jimmy you'll like this as an as a as an academic Um, our our survey response rates are abysmal And always have been even before the internet not that I go back that far, but I talked to people who who do Or who did um, but I've always realized that I don't like surveys much either Unless there's logic behind it. So starting in 2014 mind you my dissertation was until 2010 Um, oh, I'm sorry. No starting in 2009 technically But but hard hard push since 2014 if a gang cop investigative unit or something like that calls me up and wants me to talk about military trained gang members My response is yes When is it and how many people do you expect and do you mind if I hand out a survey before I run my mouth? And they're like, oh no problem. Send us a copy of it. Or yeah, that shouldn't be an issue How about we go digital? No digital sucks. I want a hand I want to put a hard copy in their hand and make sure they have a pen And then I'd like them to be on this on their seats when they get When they get back to them after the break or whatever it is And I'd love it if somebody before the break would say, hey, carter smith's going to be coming to talk about us Talk about gangs in the military before he starts talking There's a survey in front of you. We'd really like for you to fill out And I put all the disclaimers in there and the anonymity and all that other good stuff And I got to tell you I'm getting 50 and 60 percent response rates And I've done this across the nation I've done this in the northwest the northeast the southwest the southeast and Throughout the west and and and I got to tell you pagans are always in the top five Not always but often in the top five the the big ones are always there because It doesn't matter where they join the military and it really doesn't matter where they are now It matters where they're going to be after that And those might be three totally different places Especially if they're in one of those organized crime groups and the leader says we know you joined in Honolulu, we know you serve mostly on the west coast. We need you in baltimore Where are they going to say do say no? I don't think so You know dr. Smith it's again my my memories being jogged all over the place in this episode But uh, you know, there was I mentioned all these shootings and all this attention With the pagans and other groups. There was someone there was a shooting right in your backyard I don't know if you're aware of it In nash in nashville, maybe not backyard, but Close to your backyard, maybe No largest city to me. How about that? Yeah, about a month ago um There was a shootout between uh pagan pagans and outlaws in the uh parking lot of a bar in nashville and Both a pagan and an outlaw were killed. So it just shows you how Serious this pagan expansion effort is getting where there's been three. I think there have been three shootings two murders Another handful of beatings all in the last year or two all in areas that the pagans had never Been in before Right. Yeah. I mean one thing I want to ask is you were talking about So you're talking you're talking about this war going on and and You know, then we mentioned transferable skills one thing that I think researchers are concerned about The transferable skills when you have military training and now you're part of a gang or an outlaw motorcycle club And and you're involved in an actual war with another group and you're trying to take territory that um, if if members of these gangs or groups have specialized military training Um, you can recognize tradecraft. This is very dangerous for law enforcement, right? So can you talk to us about that carter like those transferable skills and especially when they're when they're Doing reconnaissance and an actual shooting war. Um, it seems pretty dangerous atmosphere yeah, I Most everybody and when I drop whenever I say military trained gang members if somebody said what's what's your primary research topic I say military trained gang members and then I'm silent for a few for a few seconds so they can process that Just for just for you know, because it's it's a usual And then what I tell them is and I'm not concerned with them learning how to shoot a gun Because I could teach anybody how to shoot a gun in about a minute, especially if they were under fire In fact, I wouldn't have to teach them Point it and push that button, right? Right, so it's not about the guns. It's about leadership. It's about psychological operations It's about logistics for pizza eggs. You want drug running going on. How about we make you a logistician? That's a cool word. That means you could work for wal-mart or the gangster disciples, right? How about how about security? How about how about signals? How about communication? How about Any any there's any skill set that these folks have in fact the further away from the gun shooting the better Because everybody in the military learns how to shoot a gun It's not a primary job enforcers are easy to find if you're a organized crime group It's the yeah the tacticians and the logicians and the The people that are the leaders that need But he's saying business skills. Yeah, not just gangster skills. Yeah, right Yeah, we don't want tats and we don't want you to to talk like you're a third grader and didn't learn proper English We want you to show like you are CEO material and then we'll Introduce you to ours and he'll put you where he wants you because this is a business This is not a group of young boys who were fatherless who didn't get enough hugs in their life This is a bunch of people who have chosen this lifestyle. There's a there's a fellow named Sadeer Venkatesh He left Berkeley of all places went to Chicago where he embedded with the gangster disciples for a while Sadeer Venkatesh Was he was a known? He was a sociologist and he was known not to be a gangster disciple But they opened up to him and the leader of the gang Was a fellow with a bachelor's in business administration, and I'll never forget reading your belt gang leader for a day and the the guy said Can't remember his name right now. Anyway, um, he said I I got into corporate America with my bitch with my business degree And I realized there was a ceiling for me, too And I thought you know what I can make multiples of this amount of money and all I got to do is duck a couple bill Bullets and bury a couple homies once in a while I'm out of here and he went back and led a very large faction of the gangster disciples You know, that's the decision you got to make what do you what? It's a decision we all make what am I willing to do for the amount of money I'm going to make You know in the biker game in the biker game world We're really at ground zero for that shift In mindset because you can yeah, you can tie it all back to taco bowman Who was you know is Even though he's he's passed away, uh the most Um notorious american biker boss not named sonny barger Uh taco built the outlaws into what they are now was a detroiter, but taco was Dare I say the first biker boss in america to cup the hair Uh cover the tattoos wear a suit and tie And present himself as a bit, you know, he called himself a chameleon And he could be just as rowdy and crass and Outlawed out as possible when he was with the outlaws, but when he was doing business on behalf of the outlaws with other people He didn't he he he metamorphosized. Yeah, what a concept. Yeah. Yeah Catch on and and I will say though based on we've had some your major players in the outlaw biker world on our podcast and um Based on my conversations with them There is still a tension my understanding between Some of the og's Who they don't like this some of the guys that've been around for a while They're like no, we're supposed to be hellraisers tatted out Breaking beer bottles of people's heads and they and they're not they're not really down with this Sort of buttoned up. Let's be like we'll call. Look at conan. Look at conan the barbarian. Yeah Uh the the the biker boss we've been talking about who was leading the pagans for the last four years and is now serving a short prison sentence and I assume when he comes Out in a year or so. He'll re assume his his mantle of power, but you know Conan the barbarian looks something out of central casting They call him conan the barbarian because he looks like because he looked like conan the barbarian Right, right, but street games larger street games in larger cities Or maybe not so large cities are going through the similar kind of tension When the og's go to prison for 10 15 20 years The game doesn't die the second and command takeover and they they put their stamp on it It's like the second generation of a family business and when mom dad grandma or whoever says Oh, that's not how we used to do it. No, it's not and it's working. How about that? Should have done this 15 years ago It's the same kind of stuff because they realize they're a business They realize they've been handed the keys to the business not a tradition Not how we always used to do it and that's the that's the mindset that makes them be able to transition from Old school to new school and and and do all the interactions that are required of any organization in the 21st century for success You know, I'd like to ask you while we still have you I know we're getting close to finishing up But the national security implications of this because since we're talking about outlaw bikers after You know, I did the training with you in Chicago This is when I was still on arizona So I I've mentioned this on the podcast before but I did some field research in san diego And I was talking with the the gang unit there and the sdpd But then also the military police with the u.s navy to san diego san diego has it just for people that don't know Yeah, san diego has a huge military population. Yes, right, right? Yeah, so your marines and they're close to mexico Well, that's where i'm going with this so they both told me I was asking them. Okay. What what's going on in san diego? And they both told me that their biggest concern right now are hell's angels in the military And that there's evidence that they were stealing weapons from the armory and selling them to the cartels In tiwana, so I was wondering if you could comment on on that like the national security. I mean that seemed like That doesn't seem good, right? And every every one of the large street gangs and every one of the large outlaw motorcycle gangs Has been identified as being affiliated with Several of the dto's the drug trafficking organizations in mexico and they have affiliations Just like people nation just like blood, you know, all that good stuff, right and and The amazing thing is nobody saw this coming. What are you smoking to where you're you're so Zoned out, you know, you can't war gain this thing and realize that these are not dumb ass criminals Off off on the weekend because they can't find a job that isn't better than mcdonald's These folks made a conscious decision To get into a business that they could make lots and lots of money at and have freedom and and Autonomy and all that good stuff And so yeah, there's there's been indicators that military folks have been selling weapons and property And that's one of one of the things I ask in my survey Do the tactics weapons and property are being are being used Incorporated into the gang life by the military and it's funny because the tactics they usually say not so much But I said, okay, how many bank robberies Because if that's not a military tactic, I don't know what is yeah, right? But in the grand scheme of things Weapons couldn't weapons are the hardest to get out of the military unless there's a war And and but but we're not talking about our weapons when we When we soldiers military, whatever when we confiscate weapons, do we really think they all get confiscated? because if I get a couple of Soviet made weapons or a couple of Israeli whatever wherever they are German made And they aren't in the books from my arms room I'm not accountable for them, but I sure enough got a place for them because I'm in charge of the armor All right, right. Yeah, so and not hard. That's every single time. That's a been a problem That's yeah, of course they're getting it and and that's that's what makes the media Go crazy. Oh, they're selling weapons. That's not the biggest thing. Yeah Hell the ATF sold them weapons So this is just that they have that and they have bullets and they have training and all these other things The military has gotten very famous for Minimizing the problem and I understand that because they got bigger fish to fry to be honest And they aren't inclined to listen to somebody who is no longer in the military And they didn't listen to me much when I was in about how to fix the problem. It's not easy You got to be a jerk. Sorry. No, you can't come in I don't care if you need a second third fourth and fifth chance. No, you can't Oh, you want a polygraph test? Sure. We'll hook you up every year You we're going to roll video. I want you to flip off your og We'll hold it until you backstab us. Then we'll send it to them. What do you think about that? Barring that I don't see a way for a former gangster to come in the military just saying But I do know that their loyalty will never be challenged and it will never be Supported by the military or never it'll never support the military and if it does I think you might be missing something I think you might be blinded by something A loyalty to the club will exceed loyalty to your country Yeah, and I think that's a national security issue and I remember you in the you know the classes that I took with you that When when guys on the ground investigators like you on the ground level We're trying to raise these issues It seemed like the brass just Was was not interested In that kind of intel what to do about to be fair though And I I think I may have said this to be fair that's understandable. That's a leadership challenge It also works in relationships. Again, one of the things I tell my students No one likes to be confronted with a problem without a corresponding solution Right. So if you go to your supervisor or your boss or your peer or whatever and you say hey such and such is broke They say no it isn't You say I think this might have a problem I either fixed it already or better than that. Here's what worked the last time I saw the other guy Have this problem. They're going to say oh, maybe there is something I can do about this There's a story I tell about lieutenant colonel x lieutenant colonel x got a call from me I say hey like I did all the time I said colonel x. This is carter smith army cid Always some way the way I said carter the secretary thought I said colonel I'm not sure why that was This carter smith army cid I'd like to schedule a gang and extremist group briefing for your unit Preferably the nco's and officers And it'll take maybe an hour it could take more if there's a bunch of questions But we typically try to wrap it up in an hour And we we have done it for everything from a half a dozen to to a couple hundred depending on the interest And he said well agent smith. Thank you for calling. He said we don't have a gang problem in my unit I said well, I realized that sir, but the unit next to you they're ate up with that stuff I pulled out all the punches and and we're afraid that might rub off. So we wanted to take some preventive maintenance checks Um, thank you, agent smith for your time. We really don't have that problem And I knew I knew better I we had some undercover operations that were involving his unit I knew we'd be talking to him in a month or so and hey, we just wrapped up this thing But I reached out to a couple guys that I know one of them in Tennessee department of corrections And then the other in michigan department of corrections and I said guys, what do I what am I doing wrong? And they said I don't know how do you do this and I said well this I make this phone call I was I was never in sales before the army. I was in sales after the army But but I was never in sales before the army because I just here's a problem And if you ain't smart enough to figure out it's a problem you need somebody's help It may or may not be mine, but I can't help you And that's kind of where I was but I this bothered me more than that And I told him I like to give a gang in extremist group briefing. He said that's the problem And I said why he said because they can in their mind. They think you're telling me there's a problem in my unit You want to offer me some stuff? I never heard of and Let's just be honest. We were talking about middle-aged white guys. I'm a middle-aged white guy Do you realize that most of the leadership in the military? Looks like me or at least did 20 years ago talks like me walks like me and acts like me Any middle-aged white guy on this in this country, maybe not on this planet, but in this country I say the word gang and many other people who are middle-aged white guys, but they don't have this problem That I'm gonna identify I say the word gang Tell me about the picture that just popped into your head bloods and crypts I want you to identify a human and I want you to describe It's good. They're gonna think a person of color. Yeah, that's what they're gonna say in order Is it the black or Hispanic? Let's be real. Yeah, right and and and and and this is before wokeness And a and a and a trustworthy or dependable or self-evaluating Middle-aged white guy back in the 90s would think shit. I'm a racist Yeah, I just I mean they just used a four letter word that wasn't offensive and I instantly stereotyped Damn, well, what they didn't realize is I didn't say outlaw motorcycle gang Are you the thought about it guy just like you right? That's that's my that's my theory. I I haven't been able to unprove it But I haven't had anybody challenge me on it So as you're going through that thought process Both my both my security threat group coordinator guys said, why don't you call them? Security threat groups. Yeah, all right. Oh Oh, I like that So I called that same colonel now Why did I call the colonel because if I called the lieutenant or the training officer or They'd be they'd be saying well, I got to check with my colonel. So I just call and ask for the colonel Colonel x this is carter smith army cid. He says, well, let me just hold You called me just a couple weeks ago. I said, I know colonel x I said I need to prepare a security threat group briefing for your unit. He said Oh Well, hang on a second sir jones his training nco sir jones come down here a second bring the calendar What are we doing thursday? Some mandatory training cancel it. How about thursday one agent smith? Um Yeah, that that would work for me sir. Uh, can I ask how many should be in attendance and where you want to host it We're gonna have it at the man theater. It's a large theater. We're gonna have all my soldiers every stinking one of them Really? Okay, I'll see you there. It's on my calendar I cornered him not really you don't corner a colonel in the army, but I I I stepped aside with him. I said you do know I'm the one that called you right before that with a gang He said yeah, I said, what's the difference? He said You called it the right thing Right. Yeah security threat group is a self defining term Yeah And and all of a sudden I don't feel like I can't fix it Because I know you're identifying something that's been around for decades and centuries And you're not going to blame me for it. It's not my fault that you have numbers to report and and and so That was the strategy that we used. I I know you can't do it I know you can't call them a community threat group because I don't know why you can't but I Apparently you can't because I've been I've been I've been singing that song for a decade now Um, but whatever you call it you got to identify it as a problem and and I referred to poison and dog manure before I I have people poo poo the the numbers of gangs Some people will tell you there's about two percent of the community as a gang member Now it's larger in some than than it is in others. Whatever two percent. I don't care if it's less than one percent I'm going to give you a sandwich with less than one percent of the content is dog crap Are you eating right? I'll give you a I'll give you a y'all have a uh, a uh, what's the drive-in? Uh, uh place that has slushes or what anyway you you're going into you're going into a restaurant And you order the biggest milkshake in there and it only has less than one percent cyanide in it How much of that you drinking? Yeah, it doesn't matter how thirsty. I'm drinking tap water. Thank you very much Right gangs are the same way because here's where the problem is the problem is not when they're in the military We're less than one percent of my people are gangsters. No, that's less than one percent that you know about There's a lot more than that because they're smarter than you But here's the problem everybody in the in two places gets out corrections And the military they aren't in for well most of them aren't in for life Definitely not the military And there are way more veterans than there are active duty military And if numerically speaking those veterans overwhelmingly Stay out of the military. They're no longer the military's problem. Now, they're the community's problem And they've identified themselves as gang members And they're not Catchable because hell they've hid from the military and now they've been experienced and they aren't the ones committing the crimes And they're removed from the criminal activity and and and you've just got a bunch of folks involved in organized crime And that military connection is long ago, but that's what started it. Sorry Yeah, and if and I'd like to ask you one last thing because I think it's too important for us to ignore because it's such a prominent issue right now, which is the extremist group and and um You know that's something, you know, I'm not sure, you know, conceptually we could talk about should they be lumped in with Gangs and organized crime, but I tell my students that well the doj that they do that's what they're doing So we're going to talk about extremist groups in the course Even though they don't they don't seem to line up exactly with some of these other groups But but doj fbi they know to me they definitely put them in the right I'm not going to disagree with doj because they have their reasons. Yeah for me When people ask me how I define organized crime for me, it has to be entrepreneurial Right, and I don't see these extremist these extremist groups are very idyllic ideological No, right, right. I don't think they really care about making money. They care about causing chaos Yeah, so I I I understand the but but I think that's for us as like social scientists We can we can have that academic debate But the the fact is they they are lumped in at least from the perspective of law enforcement so My understanding is that we're we see with a lot of the extremist groups that a lot of these members are either active military or Or former military and so just just we could get your thoughts on that before we wrap up Again the military is a microcosm of society the army has all the military but the army especially has gone All the way to one side in the pendulum swinging now that we have an african-american secretary defense We had an african-american secretary army in 95 And he didn't fix it. So I don't think the sect that's got much more of a chance Because the african-american secretary of the army togo west sent out hundreds of people to conduct thousands of surveys About whether there was an extremist group problem because a fellow named bermeister and two of his minions in fort bragg Literally assassinated a an african-american couple in Fayetteville, north carolina, and he said holy crap We've got a problem. Let's see how big it is And while the people that were tasked with going out to find whether there was a domestic terrorist extremist I'll tell you why I use that term in a minute Why there was this this activity that nobody knew about they knew about it They knew about it for bragg. They didn't have a solution there before there must not be a problem They went around the army and conducted thousands of interviews and they came back and they said Yeah, there's a bit of a problem with domestic terrorist extremists It's less than 10 of the street gangs though You better pay attention to the criminal street gangs because they're all they will bite you in the butt if you don't And you know what the reports that that are being generated nowadays It's a 10 to 1 on a bad day odds. Are they any more dangerous? I don't know They the military has tried really hard and to your point about not not being tracked I think the reason the domestic terrorist extremists I use that term because they call them domestic extremists in the military But there's no definition. It says see domestic terrorist. Yeah, hello So terrorist is the word I use in the middle and I just swipe it all the way through that way if you search engine Optimization finds it it's gonna find one of the odd right So DTE's is what I call them What what you're gonna find Is that these groups aren't going away what you're gonna find I had a reporter asked me which is more dangerous than the street gangs I said now or in the future Right now I'm more scared of the street gangs, but in the future if these guys domestic terrorists are just like international terrorists They don't think in terms of minutes and weeks and months They think think in terms of years decades and lifetimes and generations. Yeah It's like can't a camera all over again when you least suspect it Here it comes your way. So yeah, I They have and and yeah, they've got the ideological thing. It's it's very religious in nature I don't mean to offend anybody who's religious, but And I'm I would be considered religious. I'm a christian I don't consider that religious because I think religious religious is is is is a habit that can Lead to things getting out of hand if you know what I mean Yeah, but but it's that it's that deep commitment That these guys get that can be unexplainable to many folks if they don't get um, and so Yeah, I Yeah, I don't know where else to go with it. Yeah. Well, we'll we'll see um, at least it's getting reported on more so than Like we've talked about the street gang problem in the military. It seems like that doesn't get reported That's under reported at least this is generating some attention. So I I don't know if the policy makers will this year But but if you've been paying attention To what happened here in the state of michigan With our governor You know, you got to worry about both sides of the law on this. Yes, you know the governor Of michigan for people that might not know Gretchen whitmer. She was uh, very uh, covid conscious at the beginning of the beginning of the pandemic it Upset a lot of far right winger extremist groups And they plotted a kidnapping and murder now I believe 18 of the 20 people in the conspiracy were acquitted Two I believe pled guilty But the 18 that were acquitted were acquitted on the grounds that the fbi Had something like out of the 20 people indicted 14 of them were cooperators So it was in it was a it was blatant entrapment. They knew that they could have stopped it from jump street Well, speak. Yeah, you're going to the fbi the the problem The reason everybody in the government is so damn paranoid about domestic terrorist extremists Is because when the when the weather underground was in play And the feds trounced their rights so badly that none of them could be convicted for anything Not even jaywalking so much so that one of them is still in power in chicago So people can bitch about him going to the white house is like really Y'all dropped the ball on that a long time ago But as a result of that and then senator mccarthy and his game playing They are so paranoid about keeping a list of organizations that do We've even got feds that are so scared. They can't even identify the name of the group. It's like really No, how about this these are all the players in this organization and it's a criminal conspiracy It's a streak. It's a whatever it is stop. It hasn't gone before and dr. Smith The group that they traced this kidnapping assassination plot to had ties and roots with Nichols and and kazinsky and mcvey I don't know. Yeah. No, I'm saying it was it was just It was discovered in the investigation that this was an offshoot of that group that had been operating in the 90s The unabomber wasn't he wasn't maybe i'm confusing. He wasn't he wasn't affiliated with okay. I apologize I'm confusing kazinsky with mcvey and nichols. Yeah, mcvey and nichols were associated I'm confusing them because kazinsky had ties to the state of michigan. He went to the university of michigan He was uh eco. Yeah, right. Right. He was unabomber. That's different and he was on his own Hoover now, isn't he Uh, I yeah, I think he is. Yeah, and there's an old chopper there too. Yeah. Yeah, it's quite a motley crew Well, it's the worst of the worst in the federal prison system Yeah, well, we thank you for your time and we appreciate your patience I know it took a little bit longer because of technological issues to to record but we we appreciate uh You want to uh, give a shout out to any you know where people want to find out more They want to read your book find out about your research. Do you have a website or something you want to share with our audience? Yes, sure. I got my gangs and the military.com where if you mess that up, it's gangs and the military.com. I got both of them But I also uh In the one the book that you have their gangs and organized crime That's the one that's the most that's a good reference manual We actually wrote that not just for teaching but also for reference Most police departments will never come across the volume of information that my friend greg edder Out of central missouri, uh put together with the russians and tell greg A lot of the other mafias and all the other authors of this. I'm at greg and chicago. He's really cool. He's really smart, dude Let really fun to talk. Please please pass on uh My thank you to mr. Edder and mr. Knox and yourself You uh cite my work in this in your book. I see two articles. I wrote that are cited My work on uh iraqi or my research on iraqi organized crime um So, you know, I I just went into I went to the page where you referenced it and you actually pulled out some of my Articles and put it in there. So I appreciate that and I was actually with one of the people Reference in the book uh last yesterday for a barbecue Wow, very cool. Yeah, it's what depends it depends with this guy if you're on his good side or yeah I'm not sure if that's a good jimmy stays away from these guys. I stay away from But I go right into the eye of the storm Like like I told you about how I get involved in Investigating gangs in the military in the first place. It just happened across it But that's I think the more we find people who have who generate an interest based on a chance encounter It's all about sharing information. It's all about teaching what you're learning while you're learning it I was talking to a group of experts Identified experts the other day and that's what I said. I said I we can all say we're not an expert We can all say we are an expert doesn't matter if you're not sharing what you're learning while you're learning it You ain't doing nothing for me. So you don't mean nothing. You're not an expert in that arena So we nobody's to be on end unless they're creating it right then we're all reporting anyway And so you can be you can hide all you can hide what you're finding or you can share what you're finding And I think there's more value in sharing it. So yeah, I think so well Thanks again for joining us. I I'd like to talk to you for a second off off air if you can hold on But thanks for everyone listening. Please follow us on social media Twitter instagram facebook youtube at gangster podcast Subscribe like us. I'm jimmy butchillado scott Bernstein. We're out