 you know, one of the key issues moving forward is we have to figure out how are we going to feed every single person on this planet without expanding agricultural land. We've got a given set of agricultural land out there today. We have to not only feed 7.7 billion people on that, we have to feed 10 billion people by 2050. And that's where food waste comes in, you know, because food waste automatically comes back to land and how you use the resources and we have to use them a lot more efficiently. How we actually produce the food, producing food a lot more efficiently on the land is something that we're going to have to do to be able to make sure that we're not cutting down more trees, which increases greenhouse gas emissions, increases biodiversity loss, and so on and so forth. Dr. Brent Loken is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Brent is the Global Food Leader Scientist for WWF, World Wildlife Fund. In his role, Brent provides thought leadership through forward-looking research, science, direction for goal-setting scientific analysis in support of strategic development, and the management of internal and external science talent to support the global food practice team in advancing an ambitious agenda, a very ambitious agenda for that. Previously, Brent worked for Eat, the science-based global platform for food systems transformation, where he was a lead author on the Eat Lancer Report on Food, Planet, Health. His past research includes a variety of publications ranging from subjects on food and health to orangutane, terrestrial, and tropical forest governance. His current work includes a report on food consumption patterns in G20 countries and the potential for reducing greenhouse gas emissions, a series of papers that develop national-level roadmaps on greenhouse gas mitigation potential from changes in food and agriculture, and an analysis on how sustainable logging in tropical forest impacts biodiversity. In addition, Brent co-founded and helped lead the Progressive International School and co-founded a conservation NGO that focused on protecting rainforests and biodiversity by empowering Indigenous peoples. Rarely patient Brent believes to achieve the SDGs and the Paris Agreement in the short time that is available. It will be because of fast-moving and innovative organizations and people that disrupt the status quo and actively show the world a more healthy and sustainable way of living in harmony with nature. Brent, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for being here. Mark, thank you so much and thank you for those kind words that you just said. It's an absolute pleasure being here. I'm so glad that you could find the time when we could have this moment to discuss. Just for my listeners, our paths have crossed a couple of times at the Eat Forum. The last time I think I physically saw you was at the UN pre-cop summit, the UN Bonn. We had a food event out of the UN offices in Bonn where you were at that time representing Eat and we had a good meeting. Although just also for our listeners, it started out with almost a little rockiness. We got pulled aside by the UN FCCC. We just had Brazil and Argentina and that's delegates call us up and say, we've got to be careful what we say about the Eat Lancer report. We're just going to talk facts. We're talking science. There's nothing crazy going on. We've also experienced these political and delegate negotiations and being at that international stage before. I'm just glad we can finally have a chance to go deeper and clarify for a lot of people here today. As your bio nicely says, and I probably gave the shorter version, although it might have seemed long. You've been doing this for a long time and I'd like you to kind of, as we start out two things, tell us maybe what I know but my listeners don't, how it kind of started, your Genesis story of how you've gone into this, how it really, you learned in Borneo and the Dayak culture, indigenous people there. Yeah. Thanks, Mark. Yeah, I forgot that story about Bon and Bill and Argentina coming up and saying that we have to be careful what we say. I almost get that on a daily basis and that's one of those things that continues to, it's very interesting just how controversial discussing food can actually be and how divisive. It brings us together at one level. We sit around tables, we share meals, we have great conversations, but on another level it actually divides us and puts us into camps when you eat meat or you don't. That was a fun story. So my Genesis, yeah, it's interesting because it feels like my path to get here, it's like all roads were leading to this point. I worked in education for many years, actually was a headmaster for a bit, founded a school, taught physics and chemistry. And I think that bit helped me a lot with the education side of the work that I'm doing right now because I think a lot of the academic focus and when normal academics, they have a very tough time communicating the idea for the audience. That's something that I think is very, it's a moral imperative that each one of us have to be able to be able to take the science and be able to communicate it in a way that everybody can actually make sense out of. But then after that, I went to Borneo, switched from education, worked in Borneo for almost about five years. And what I was doing there is I, well, I naively went in there thinking I wanted to, I was going to save rainforest and save ringetangs and clouded leopards and boy, this is going to be easy. And I quickly found that just is such a complex beast trying to solve this complex problem of working with local communities, economic development, education, conservation and the intersection of all those coming together. Yeah, so what I ended up doing was I ended up getting a PhD while I was there because I realized that I was woefully ill-equipped to be able to do the work that I wanted to do. So I got a PhD in working in how to actually work with local communities and work on development issues, while at the same time actually protecting forests. Yeah, so I lived with the DIAC for almost five years, researched ringetangs and clouded leopards and monkeys and worked on education issues, development issues. But what I started to realize there was just how tricky it was to work with a single community and to bring a single community along that process from development and conservation and being able to wrestle that and all the complex issues that you're trying to, that you're facing. I mean, it's this absolute chessboard of all these players coming in, you know, the palm oil companies, the coal companies, the conservation organizations, the local community trying to figure out where they sit in the middle of all this, right? And I began to realize that if we were to do this for every single community on the planet, this is going to be a really hard task. We were underfunded, under-equipped, under-resourced, and I just felt like what we had to do, if we were to solve the great grand challenges that we were facing, was we were going to have to do it at a much larger scale. In addition, I went in wanting to protect orangutans and cloud leopards, thinking I'm going to protect these animals. Everybody wants to protect them. I mean, who wouldn't want to protect orangutans? They're so cute and cuddly, right? But I quickly came to realize that for local communities, that's not the number one priority. It's education, it's jobs, and it's health. And a lot of the conversations that we actually dealt with came back to food. It's these food issues. It's about feeding and making sure that the kids are healthy. And with the DIAC, a lot of the culture is tied to food. The harvesting of the rice and the seasonal harvesting of the rice and the village coming together to cut down areas of the forest in some areas, to plant rice, to harvest it together, to sing songs together. Their ceremonies all involved food in some way. Everybody had their own garden where they grew fruits and vegetables and everything else. But they were quickly losing that as the palm oil plantation started to come in. So even the conservation issues were directly tied back to the food issues. And what they were interested in is more about how do we protect our culture, which is directly tied back to food, and then the palm oil, which is a food, was also impacting the forest. So there was this intersection of all these issues about cultural preservation, with economic development, with wildlife conservation, and what was at the center of all of it, food. So what I quickly realized, well, maybe not so quickly, but what I realized over time is that I could actually achieve the same conservation outcomes by talking about food. I didn't have to directly talk about orangutans. I didn't have to directly talk about saving forests. I could talk about food and issues with food. And I thought, well, maybe if I started to work on this issue at a global level, we could achieve the same conservation outcomes, the same health outcomes that we could have, that some organizations are actually working on, but by actually focusing on one of the most important problems out there today, and that's food. So that's why I moved to EAT. And I started to work at the international level and realized that we started to actually work at that level to influence local communities and the processes that were happening. And from there, I went to WWF, because WWF is a global organization in 87 countries. I realized that to be able to achieve this, we need large organizations that are working on the ground everywhere. And that's where I am today. I really appreciate you telling us that story, because it's so vital. And there's so many things that pop out of that. So also in your bio, you nicely address the Sustainable Development Goals and the Paris Agreement. But what food is, is the basic physiological needs of humanity, mazles, hierarchy of needs, that's our basic needs, and sustainable development basically is an infrastructure. It is those basic needs. So when you're at that very bottom level of indigenous cultures or cultures around the world, they're worried, like you said, about health and education and the basic needs like food. And those conservation things, kind of, if those basics are met and they're done right, then the conservation can happen. Then the sustainable happens. And so I've also run into that enlightenment as well. And it's just fabulous to hear your story on that connection. I want to tie it to two other things as we progress through now. You've had all these years of experience. You've been dealing with food. You're one of the lead authors on the Eat Lancet Report. You've been with EAT, but you're also now on this global level. But you've been doing this for a while. You've spoken at all different levels and seen different cultures and people and the discussions around food. And then 12 months ago, I don't know, even more now, this craziness hits our world. We've got a pandemic. We've got COVID. We've got Black Lives Matter. We've got racism against Asians. We've got Brexit. We've got an inauguration. And probably on and on, it's just like this big ripple effect of what's going on in the world. And my question is, one, how have you and your family weathered this time? I kind of know, but we all want to hear. And as all that that you spoke about, all that wisdom, all that learning, a better operating system, a better model for life to give us a little bit resilience to get through these hard times, times of pandemics, times of extreme nationalism and the division of humanity, are there some learning lessons? And have you also seen a doubling down of humanity and those people you speak to or work with or trying to reach now saying, wow, we realize we need to really focus in on these basics and focus in on food and these bigger issues that all tie to this basic infrastructure. And so I want to know, how have you weathered and are there some learning lessons, better models of resilience, maybe out of that time that you've learned over this period of craziness? Yeah, it has been a year plus of craziness, right? And I think that very few things has touched almost every single person on the planet such as this. Yeah, I guess a few things pop to mind. And number one is this idea that everything comes back to food. A lot of the issues in terms of where this came from and where this pandemic actually originated, the source of it could come back to food. It could be a wet market, could be the relationship that we have with trading wild animals and bushmeat and we know that the more that we encroach on some of these areas, the more that we bring in humans and wildlife and livestock interaction, we're creating the right environment for these emerging diseases to just kind of emerge and just take over. And we've realized the impact that that can have. So I think it's been a wake up call to one extent. It's also been a wake up call because it's demonstrated the fragility of the global food system as well too, because there's a lot of people out there that the food system has been broken, they weren't able to get access to markets or weren't able to get their food. But it has also showed people are also cooking more at home. I think banana bread or certain types of breads were like the rage and everybody makes food together and our families coming together more now to make food. So I think food has absolutely been the center of so much of the past year. And I think that the pandemic has definitely elevated it to a new level, which is a very good thing. You mentioned nationalism, I think is another idea and like local food systems and everything. There's been this emergence of more like nationalism, domestication of food systems. We want a nationalized food system, which is good to one extent. But to another extent, that can have detrimental effects for some people as well too. And we have to be very careful about making sure that as we look towards what we just weathered, that we don't look more inwards and outwards. Because the only way that we're going to be able to fix the global food system is to actually cooperate more, to probably increase trade of food, to actually make sure that every single person on the planet has access to food. And that's going to mean some local food production, but a lot of global food actually, that we're going to have to trade. And we're going to have to make sure that moving forward, we create a system that is resilient and can weather these sorts of storms. I think through this past year, the food system has done not too bad. It's definitely impacted some areas more than others. But we can definitely do a much better moving forward. Yeah, but overall, I would say me and my family have weathered it fairly well. I was traveling way too much before, my God. I think all of us were. My last trip was to a G20 meeting in Saudi Arabia in Riyadh. I went there for 24 hours, give a 15-minute talk and flew home. And when we start to think about how crazy that is, that we would fly to a meeting like that to give a 15-minute talk and fly back, I think we start to think that almost the insanity of some of our actions. It just doesn't make any sense anymore. So hopefully there has been this transition, this awakening among businesses, among all of us working on these issues, that we can actually have these conversations like this, right? And that these conversations that we can do a lot through these virtual platforms. On the flip side of that, we can't replace human contact. I still do a lot of talks online, a lot of Zoom presentations. And I really hate them. I do because you're speaking to a computer in your living room and you can't see how the words flow over the audience and how it catches and how it resonates and the reaction to that. And the only way that you can get that is through human contact with people. So we're also going to have to moving forward, balance when do we have to come together and when can we actually meet like this and have these same sorts of conversations like this. My hope is that moving forward, we don't just have almost like a revenge, got all this pent up energy that we just want to get out now, you know, revenge, travel and, you know, everything else. But I hope that we do, that this has demonstrated a better way of living and we can maintain it going forward. I'm skeptical that we can, but at least we have a vision out there about what more we can do. Yeah, this revenge, travel is almost like trying to make up for, you know, missed opportunities, missed vacations, missed meetings, you know, and I hopefully the majority of the world's come to the realization of a lot of those times that we've spent, we were spending our wills and not all those meetings needed to happen live and in present. I also traveled a lot like you and, you know, it's crazy, I'd spend more time in a taxi or airplane in a hotel waiting to go on stage to talk and then, you know, just turn around right after and go out and there was no extra time to meet and greet people to kind of network, to kind of experience the whole event and listen to the other talks. And so a lot of it was very shallow and superficial and not a lot of meetings. So I think there's definitely some better models that we can learn and improve on that. I also kind of, you know, I don't know if there was any other specific things where you say, you know, not only have I been speaking about this and working on this for so many decades around food and around conservation, but I actually applied some of those principles to my life, the way I looked at certain infrastructure, certain things. And I realized that during the pandemic, me and my family, and there was some extra bonding, some better, it was kind of a better model that went through and was able to carry us better through and weather this crazy time a little bit better than I saw others or any kind of kind of learning wisdom. And the reason I asked that is because I've also seen the flip side, some of those other speakers, some of those other leaders or futurists that we've seen around the world in some of our meetings, some of them were hit pretty hard. And all that came out of their mouth was words and speaking, and they didn't actually apply it to their life. There was no actual, and they're like, ah, they don't have any money, and I don't have any advance, and I didn't prepare, I didn't integrate that into my life because they were just going from one meeting to the next or just, you know, speaking about it in different ways. And so there was a lot of learning lessons on both sides of those errors in the systems or those problems, those cracks or leaks in our system that bubbled to the surface. They, oh, we definitely need to fix that moving forward. One that I like the best is the doubling down of the US when they, you know, when Biden and Kamala Harris got into office, they really kind of doubled down and went back into the Paris Agreement and doubled down on sustainability and have done some wonderful things. But one thing that I think that's missed out in a certain way, and I don't want to get too political is the first thing I would have made sure that is getting fixed is the voting system. I mean, since Al Gore in 2000 with dimple chats, you think we'd have that whole system a little bit better and fixed. And the same thing is instead of going back now as we come out of this pandemic into some other businesses, users, the old models that don't work, we should get those fixed and move forward so we can draw down our things. So that's why I'm kind of hoping that you can maybe share another store or tell us, oh, yeah, there are some better models for life, some better operating things that some some tools that we've got here that really work and they've been proven during this time. Yeah, that's, I mean, I mean, for me personally, thinking back over the past year, it's been nice to slow down. It's been nice to slow down and just have more time reflect and be still and not to be always on the road and always looking for the next event. And I mean, you know, still busy but busy in a different way, but also at the same time teaching myself to be a lot more present. And I think that could serve all of us while moving forward in terms of how do we actually sit down, slow down a little bit and be a little bit more present just in the here and now. And I'm hoping that as awful as this last year was, it was also an opportunity for every single one to figure out what works for us, what we miss, what we don't miss and what we can actually hold on to moving forward. I hesitate a bit in terms of, you know, saying there's one model over the other that could potentially work better. I guess I'm, you know, I think there's multiple models out there that that really work really depending on places. You brought up the like the US example. I worry about democracy. And I worry about the fact that is that the best model moving forward given the multiple conversion crisis that we're facing right now? I believe in the long term it is, but we don't have centuries to be able to figure it out to be able to make the mistakes. You know, this like the next decade is the most you know, consequential decade for a species ever period without a doubt. And we don't have time to be thinking about elections in terms of like who's going to be in office for the next four years and if Biden's going to make it and everything, you know, we just have to hit really hit the ground running. So, so yeah, there are some definite concerns moving forward. You know, it'd be interesting to hear from your listeners too. And I'm not sure if you have any sort of like blog or online chat or anything like that. But you know, what have they done over the past year that's worked for them? You know, what are some of the learnings that that that they've made? Yeah, so reflecting back, I mean, it's it's been a not not all bad, actually, not all bad. I'm all I'm almost dreading when we have to start hopping on the planes again to start traveling and I and I and I don't envision that I'll ever go back to that again. Not as much as I was doing before anyway. Yeah, I mean, that's that's a general emergence right now is those who have begun to travel have a lot of colleagues in Israel and different Singapore and different parts of the world that have already started back on the travel and doing events and speaking about different subjects on food. And and they're doing it in a different way. They've realized that not everybody is willing to go back to the way it was before there was a lot of things that weren't not necessary and could be done differently. That brings me to probably what a big question that that I ask all my guests and it's really kind of your thoughts and feelings about global citizenry and how would you feel about a world without the removal of borders, nations, divisions of humanity, one from another, and I just for a little more clarification, I kind of tie that together. During this pandemic, food was a global citizen, obviously COVID was a global citizen, air, water was a global citizen and obviously species aren't held behind borders, but a lot of nationalism, a lot of people going back to to to good positive local economies, local futures of food economies and food webs, community food webs, but how do you feel or how would you feel about a world without borders, global citizenry, humanity was connected one from another and that we all kind of like the sustainable development goals had this higher level of goals and operating system that says we'll never let humanity get below that level again and maybe you could elaborate and tell us your thoughts and feelings on that. It's an interesting premise to explore. I guess my first reaction is I don't I don't think I'd like it. I like the diversity on the planet. I like the fact that traveling from Sweden to Norway is so vastly different when you wouldn't think it is in like, you know, Nordic countries to be able to go to different parts and places and have that diversity just like with foods. I think ecosystems or foods or whatever it is, I think I think diversity is absolutely key. The the the challenges though I think then is how do we move away from those nationalistic tendencies that we're heading towards and I think that is a bit of a scary path that we're on right now in terms of more looking inwards than outwards. So if we can maintain those borders well at the same time, increase in collaboration and increasing trust and increasing this this notion of we live on this planet together and we have to start working together I think that that that would be great that would be my vision you know it's like maintain those borders increase collaboration it's like SDG 17 right it's it's it's drawing on and asking people to work work together more. But that's that's that's not where we're heading right now and we're actually heading in the opposite direction. And we're going to have to figure out somehow to pull back from that and reverse course. I believe it was during this lockdown period but correct me if I'm wrong you came out with a wonderful Ted countdown animation foods of the future was that during this time or was it actually before yeah the future for yeah there was a Ted countdown conference last October and yeah it was for that. Beautiful tell us how that evolved and why you decided to go strict with animation and how has it been received and and what are you hearing of that was that also in conjunction with the WWF? Yeah I actually started working with Ted on that while I was at EAT developing this concept about what the future farm would actually look like and they wanted to put together as they were developing a program some difference of like a very visual representation of what this farm looks like instead of just having somebody go up on stage and talking about it actually giving somebody that they can visualize it in a in a way that that they could connect with. So they had a great animation team so I worked with them on writing the script worked with them on some of the animation what we should be focusing on what the key and main messages were for that and so far it's been received very well I mean we're pushing a million views so far which is not not too bad when you're talking about a farm you know like the future farms you know but what we wanted to do with that was really to give audience and people this notion of you know what does the farms of the future looks like it's not just monocrop I mean I'm from Iowa Midwest I'm a Midwest boy you know farm boy you know I know it was corns and soybeans and monocrops and that's what I knew right and we wanted to really show people that there is a different way there is a different type of farming that we can actually have that is nature positive that works for people works for the planet is good for biodiversity and actually produces more food than what we have now so that's that's the vision that we're trying to create there it was absolutely beautiful I've watched it a few times and as well as some of the other countdown things but I I get the feeling that it just reaches so many more people because it's not really an age specific thing it's visually even though it's an animation beautiful the narration the story behind it kind of the journey it takes you on is that makes a lot of sense and I've met others who've really enjoyed it as well so I think I think that's absolutely beautiful and there are some other things that whether it was eat or before that you've kind of had the ability or or fortune to kind of touch upon or be involved in but I want to go a little bit deeper so not only with eat there's the Stockholm resilience center and then there's Johan Rockstrom and the planetary boundaries we hear in our our time and age many many different things so we hear doughnut economics we hear planetary boundaries from Johan Rockstrom matter of fact his Netflix movie breaking boundaries and his book just came out of I just finished a fabulous book breaking boundaries then we hear about Mariana Matsukata mission economics then we hear about Ellen MacArthur circular economy and I'm wonder if I'm leaving any out there's probably a couple others you know that that we could bring up how do how are we down there I'm personally set on planetary boundaries I'm personally thinking those are also in alignment with doughnut economics but out of all these different choices are they all competing against each other going in different directions are they all moving in the same direction all this big collaboration and as the this global organization and and being the lead a food scientist there can you kind of help us how we can make sense of that and you know what should we be thinking about should we be thinking about planetary boundaries and how that ties into food and going those things or or or just your personal thoughts or feelings that kind of a little bit better understanding because I know you you've said before that you kind of like that line of thought yeah you know there is a lot out there and I think that just like when you're talking about what type of diet is best for people people get very confused you know or or you'll throw out a term like sustainable food what the heck does that mean you know I mean you ask one person and they think it's something you ask somebody else they think it's something that you know this you could probably serve in you know an audience of 100 people and ask them what is that what is a healthy diet and they'd give you 99 different answers you know so it is absolutely confusing same with all these different systems that we're talking about but they're all generally pointing in the same direction this general principle of living within the boundaries of the earth understanding that we don't it's not a finite resources that we can continue to extract and exploit and degrade and do whatever we want with I mean those days of thinking like that are gone and you know whether you're talking about I mean you listed quite you know four or five there they're all generally saying the same things I personally like the planetary boundaries concept because it's built upon decades of earth of this earth system science and so it's not just some concept that just kind of came out in 2009 yo Han and well Stefan and others just said hey let's just think about planetary boundaries what they did is they said they looked back at earth system science which is one of the oldest sciences out there which studies the planet and and and what are the systems that govern all the processes and maintain the stability of the planet and they identified that these are the main systems that actually do it these are the it's the climate system it's the land system it's it's it's this biosphere and this all the biodiversity that we have it's the bio geochemical flows it's for all these things working together maintain a stable earth now why that's important actually comes back to the video that I made this you know future farming video because thank god that we've got a stable earth because over the last 10 000 years this stable earth has allowed us to thrive as a species we're able to create we've been able to farm we could predict the seasons we could do all the things that we wanted to do because we had us to a stable climate we you know we didn't have fluctuating temperatures like we do right now and that's allowed us to thrive as a species you know so what the planetary boundaries sets forth is well what are the systems that we need to operate within to maintain that stability to allow us to continue to thrive and it's a very elegant concept and it's weathered the storm and I think over time it's increasingly getting stronger and more accepted not less and that's that's how these things go it's it's definitely highly criticized but that's the process of science and what science goes through people criticize it they'll they'll they'll throw stones at it they'll say it's no good but in the end it's it's it's one of the most elegant ideas out there very simple very elegant and it works yeah I really like it and like I said I'd recommend that Breaking Boundaries book from Johan and I believe his name is Geoffrey or Geoff that was also part of that as well and this is a fabulous book and it really explains the the nine planetary boundaries how it came up it takes us from the hollow scene right into the Anthropocene and and what state we're in and how we can remain in that safe operating space this really brings me to your role with the WWF as a lead food scientist and global lead food scientist where you the WWF normally think okay well wildlife fun we're doing a lot with orangutans and elephants and endangered species and and all sorts of animals wild animals animals and what does that have to do with food which you addressed you already answered when we were talking about Borneo and and the things you you said there and most people hopefully will make that transition and that connection but on your website on on the things the WWF providing super food tools super how can you create your own planetary plant-based diet other diets and and kind of move towards a better way see and and look at food waste just some tools great animations great things on the website and I would love to know what have you been involved in how how do you see that going what do we have to to look forward to and what's what what's maybe coming and how are you guys all tied into this wonderful new new thing since last year the UN food system summit and what's going on there which is really pinnacle for food as well and in this time and age yeah boy a lot there yeah so you're I mean you're spot on you know WWF is known for protecting animals right and that's that's really our core goal is is protecting animals and landscapes and conserving these these iconic areas I think that less people would think about food and and and food when they think about WWF so even internally you know we've we've been working really hard to elevate that and the importance of that within the organization but also to ground that within the other conservation goals that we're doing you know I I believe that we might be the only conservation organization that has such a large focus on food and I think that's that that shows the leadership of WWF to be able to take this issue and say this is important because we won't be able to protect forests we won't be able to save species if we don't change food you know because even if we implement these innovative ways of farming we implement these innovative ways of protecting these areas if we don't fix the food and the food that we eat it's still going to drive this increasing demand for land all over the planet which is going to destroy species destroy landscapes increase greenhouse gas emissions and you know so on so that you know we can't implement nature-based solutions which is a buzzard right now if we don't focus on food so that's what we're trying to establish within WWF and also to take that message outside of you know WWF that connection between conservation and food very much going back to my time in Borneo in terms of how all of these issues comes back to food we are boy flat out right now with the work that we're doing we just launched a report last October called it's called betting the curve the restorative power of planet based diets and what we did with that is we wanted to take the eat lands at which provided global targets and there's a lot of reports out there which provide global targets but individual countries have a tough time making sense of what global targets mean for me so we analyzed and said well if you were to transition to different dietary patterns how would the impacts play out in 147 countries for greenhouse gas emissions land use change biodiversity loss and other things and we wanted to show the nuance in individual countries and how it's not always a win-win situation different individual countries are wrestling with certain issues like for example you have got a subset of countries that are still dealing with burdens of under nutrition that's first and foremost issues that they want to actually that they have to deal with right so by addressing burdens of under nutrition that could potentially increase greenhouse gas emissions and biodiversity loss if we're not careful other countries are dealing with overconsumption other countries are dealing with issues of not having enough land you know and all of this global jigsaw puzzle of how all this fits together is something that we're going to have to rest with and that's what we did within this report the UN food system summit is another huge thing that we're working on we're actually leading action track three which is on nature positive production i'm also heavily involved in action track two which is on healthy and sustainable diets working specifically on how do we elevate this idea of like national dietary guidelines and changing individual consumer behavior all over the planet so we're developing a coalition a global coalition to work on that and that's flat out you know this is the first time that the UN has brought together countries from all over the world to focus on food it's an absolutely monumental monumental summit a great change in terms of global awareness on this issue but the UN is a slow process for you right you know we can't stop there we also have to start mobilizing business and individuals and individual countries to be able to take that more bottom up movement and and to be able to create that change well this larger more UN process oriented things are happening behind the scenes or or at the level and we need things happening at all levels and you know wwf is there we're implementing programs in you know individual countries we've got some ambitious research things that we're working on and we're actually tracking working with groups to track national level progress and how they're working towards food and how they're working towards this food system transformation so there's a lot of stuff happening within wwf there's no shortage of work to get involved in yeah well and there's so many another big thing and why why I kind of said how how are you doing how have you weathered this crazy time because even in 2020 I mean really the 2020 started out decorative action really as people were doubling down already there the year started off with a bang where we're seeing seeing more ambitions more historical precedent set on organizations and corporations saying no we're we're going to put in a billion dollars into this earth fund and into this and we want to double down on climate and biodiversity and soil health and into food and that just these amazing ambitions then almost everything came to a halt and a lot of fear a lot of things bubbled up but then there is almost this awakening this humanity the people I'd been speaking to for years have really doubled down and said oh we've got to do more we've got to raise the bar we've got to really get on this exponential roadmap and get up to speed with the changes that are going on in our world to avoid tipping points and so it's amazing how those were those were there and then we kind of had this this hiccup that was a good wake up call and it let all the problems in the systems bubble to the surface that now we can even address better and find out maybe where we were spinning our wheels but let's have a trigger focus on a laser focus on where we need to go and what we really need to do and I just love it I love that the WWF is involved in those action tracks and and what you've done so far and and are continuing to do I have a kind of a even bigger question so this hopefully most of us can understand this connection between deforestation and soil degradation this you know in the oceans we see this food chain if the plankton are bad if we have too much plastics if the coral reefs then it affects the food chain of fish in our oceans and things like that but also the vice versa on the the biome soil diversity the health of our soils and the microorganisms there kind of have this trickle up effect to the health of our of our of our planet and in Brockstrom's book matter of fact he said we used to have six trillion different species of trees now we have you know less than a trillion probably species of trees left on our planet in the Anthropocene and really culminated all around agriculture and the science or the beginning of the innovation of man planting the seed killing moving rocks cutting down trees to to farm we started getting rid of those species but we also started impacting our our soil diversity and right now we're seeing this big push towards let's heal our soils you know there was um kiss the ground and many other documentaries about how we've got to plant trees and heal our soils and a lot of movements going on but those diversity issues those soil issues those microorganisms that we're trying to to get back to health have a kind of a food chain that go up to orangutans that go up to those those minuscule bugs and insects and species pollinators clear up to those that are eaten by uh you know the plants that are eaten by orangutan and things and so I really want to know um in your conservation it's supposed to be about wildlife but how also are you addressing these big biodiversity is big biome issues about uh reversing those things yeah well I mean diversity is key it kind of comes back to that uh do you want borders or not you know I think I like diversity I think ecosystems like like diversity and whether it's a tropical forest ecosystem or whether it's a soil ecosystem you know diversity is really key and and we've done a very good job of um getting rid of that diversity and really relying on only a few crops and a few you know species and we're starting to see the just a fragility of that kind of system and and there is a growing push towards bringing back the diversity into these systems developing nature positive production where we can actually restore soil health where we can actually plant trees and some of these crop lands right and we can bring back animals into the crop lands and not keep them out right um you know the flip side of that then that we really need to work on um and I really like to try and push back against panaceas because I because I believe I I really believe that there is no panacea it's much more complex than that um is whether those types of farming systems can produce the same sorts of crop yields of other types of farming systems um there's definitely evidence that they can there's quite a bit of evidence that they can but we just have to make sure that moving forward that that as we explore different types of farming practices that we can still feed 10 billion people that we can still ensure livelihoods and local livelihoods and everything else for every single person on this planet and it's and it's not going to be easy it's going to be a retooling of the entire way that we farm um I'm going to ask you kind of might might be a technical or might be um a controversial question so there's always this discussion can we feed the 10 billion uh in the WWF's information alone and others just a quarter of all the food we waste every year was enough to feed everybody in the world who's starving so and it also creates a waste of natural resources and has the potential some studies are saying creates a greenhouse gas in and of itself on how that food waste is disposed if it aggregates a ferment that can turn into methane which is 84 times more effective and is a greenhouse gas in the shorter term um which kind of creates this ripple effect uh on food waste but what if we got these efficiencies and how we produce food and how we farm and those things that and even in the home that that we don't waste those foods anymore we worst are are we really seriously still faced with how are we going to feed 10 billion or is this is this a controversial subject or is there maybe some wisdom in there on some new innovations some new things that we could do um to to really do it different than we've ever done it before well there's three different actions that we have to do number one is we have to shift our diets diets you know shifting diets is absolutely key uh second thing is we have to change how we actually produce food and the third thing is we have to reduce how much food we actually waste so all three of those things are tied together and they push and pull different levers if we're thinking about planetary boundaries for example food loss and waste is more of a land use issue whereas dietary shifts is more of a greenhouse gas emissions issue um so for example you know one of the key issues moving forward is we have to figure out how are we going to feed every single person on this planet without expanding agricultural land we've got a given set of a agricultural land out there today we have to not only feed 7.7 billion people on that we have to feed 10 billion people by 2050 and that's where food waste comes in you know because food waste automatically comes back to land and how you use the resources we have to use them a lot more you know efficiently how we actually produce the food producing food a lot more efficiently on that land is something that we're going to have to do to be able to make sure that we're not cutting down more trees which increases greenhouse gas emissions increases biodiversity loss and so on and so forth dietary shifts tends to impact tends to impact greenhouse gas emissions so i would say it's definitely not controversial what what you're saying um it's all tied together all three things have to happen if we're going to feed 10 billion people and if we're going to do it within within the boundaries and within the limits that the earth actually places on us um and we can't do one over the others now the thing about food loss and waste is this is an issue that most people want to focus on more than dietary shifts it's not very controversial to say let's uh let's address food loss and waste we waste so much food therefore we should stop it um there's very few people that would say no that's that's something we should keep on doing right whereas whereas dietary change is so much more controversial that's that's off that's off limits for many people you know so they they're fine with addressing food loss the waste they're fine with changing how we produce food those aren't that really that you know controversial but dietary shifts are but boy we need all three to have any any chance of feeding 10 billion but it's still theoretical it's still a hotty theoretical concept in terms of how we're actually going to do it so theoretically it's possible to do this by 2050 uh but we're you know it comes back to that joe that global jigsaw puzzle that I mentioned how do we optimize all the land everywhere and figure out where is the best place to grow this you know where is the best land available to do this action on it to to grow cows to grow legumes to grow rice whatever it is uh then how do we get it to every single person on this planet you know and how do we deal with countries that uh don't have that much farmland um and how do we ensure that we don't um use food as almost weaponized food right to hold it hostage from some countries if you're some in some sort of trade trade dispute um so those are all issues that we're going to have to figure out moving forward but we can feed 10 billion well those are all historical issues too that we've dealt with in the past that have been used in the past that we really need to learn from those uh as lessons to probably not repeat those mistakes and maybe think of how we can come together and do them different in a lot of different ways there are some other I mean this it's a highly complex and obviously systemic levers or transformations that need to occur that we need to do but there's also some other factors that we're still getting up to speed in addressing like the true cost or total environmental cost is is a factor that's been left out uh for a long time are we paying for that natural capital of of water and land and and uh the resources that go in to produce those food foods that are taken away from vital resources and are we using those efficiently and uh so there it's very complex and we're still working on them a lot that's what I really like planetary boundaries there's another one that I like that I would like to see hybridized or kind of fit into planetary boundaries in some respects and that is the global hectare of the earth overshoot day or the um global footprint dot org who with Matias Vakarnado and he does the earth overshoot day and it's all based on this global hectare and and according to the day that Germany matter of fact I think it was May 5th Cinco de Mayo normally the day I celebrate because I love uh Mexican food and and the whole culture uh Hispanic culture around that day but it was a day Germany hit earth overshoot day May 5th it was four months and five days into the year we've already hit earth overshoot the day we've gone beyond our resources and that's based off of 1.6 global hectares which is replicable per person if we were to combine that with uh the planetary boundaries in the form of an economic model I I honestly think we're on on lines in the right direction to kind of keep those balances uh in our planetary boundaries and come up with a new non-extractive economic model that would work for the entire world right in line with planetary boundaries and global hectare you know I'm a sustainable development goal advocate you talk a lot about the sustainable development goals a lot of people think you know the sustainable development goals are an add-on to business as usual you just plug in a goal here and there to business as usual and that's it it's it it is an entirely new global operating system as a Tyler new economic model basically we're saying to all humanity not just the goals the targets the indicators that here's a new operating system we're going to raise the bar higher for all humanity and we're never going to go below that level again we're going to stay at 1.5 degrees of warming and adhere to the Paris agreement by 2030 and and it is a new operating system it's a new economic model and some people say well is that for cities countries governments who's it for it's really how we started out our conversation today it's for the basic needs it's for those communities it's for each individual it's sustainable development which is an infrastructure of basic needs for every human being on earth because in our discussion we've talked about how are you know the western world is doing pretty good with food and and infrastructure but how are we going to get that food access to those who are starving or are in hunger or in poverty that don't have that infrastructure how are we going to get that food there and get their local economy stimulated so that they're just getting the basic needs of not just food but energy and infrastructure of clean water and sanitation and I really I really think that not only the the eat lancer report the planetary boundaries the global hectare that they're all in alignment with that thinking of the sustainable development goals in Paris agreement but one last push I just kind of want to know do you also see the sustainable development goals like that as well and and what if we had this this thing similar because May 25th we're recording this on May 19th but May 25th is the 60 year anniversary of the the moonshot when John F. Kennedy was in Congress said let's put some men on the moon and they did it and they did it before the end of this decade and so now we're at that same point nine years to 2030 before the end of this decade let's reach the sustainable development goals I just like to know your thoughts what the WWF's doing and and if you're feeling it is as well is it for each individual and is that a new operating system for the world small question isn't it small question yeah um um we definitely need some kind of new operating system and probably multiple new operating systems out there so not just one whether it's an economic system it's a food system it's a it's a it's a trade system it's all of it right so so so I think we need to look at all the operating systems and how they're currently working and how we can start to reign them in a bit but the sustainable development goals I think is I mean it's one of the most ambitious global agendas that we have out there and we have less than a decade now to achieve them and we're behind on almost every single goal out there so we're not making progress on most of them you know and I think this is one of my concerns with the sustainable development goals is the fact that there's not there's not a lot of ambition or there's not a lot of incentive for individual nations to actually work towards them what are they going to get out of it right if they achieve some of these goals they could actually see it see it working against their current economic system and current current path to development and I think that's why you're hinting at this new economic system in terms of how we place value on things right so I I love the ambition of the sustainable development goals I wish there were some clear targets within them and some clear agreements in terms of how we're going to collectively work towards them that's why I think the Paris agreement is such an elegant multilateral you know agreement it's it's it you know all the countries came together for a specific target for a specific cause it gave individual countries the flexibility to be able to achieve those targets themselves it's almost like a race to the top type type system that we're actually seeing right now if country's almost competing to see who's who's who's going to leave this process and you know that's that's that's why I think the Paris agreement is been fairly successful and and and we're seeing that we might have a chance of actually doing this you know the SDGs we'll see I I definitely hope we can but I do think that you know moving forward we will need some more specific targets within the SDGs and some more push in terms of being able to hold the individual countries accountable for helping to achieve them and right now that's just not there there was a little bit of doubling down some hope so hope on the horizon there's the new advancement and development of science-based targets that help reach the sustainable development goals a little bit more behind that and obviously there's that that that's a much longer discussion we can have but I really appreciate you addressing that I have four last questions for you only one more hard one and that is the burning question wtf and no it's not the swear word although you might have been saying that during these crazy 12 plus months of time that we've had but it's what's the futures where are we going where should we be looking and I really want to know from you and wwf what's the futures what's the roadmap what's the plan what do we need to do boy yeah another tough question because you know there are multiple roadmaps and I think what we need to be working on right now is I think at the global level we have a very good sense about what we have to do there are various international agreements studies whatever it is that I have really laid that forth whether it's a Paris agreement that says this is a pathway that we have to follow the IPCC and all the work that they're doing the Eat Lancet for food systems but what we really need to start working right now is what that means for individual countries we have to start working in individual countries and downscaling the planetary boundaries which is a great concept but downscaling that to what that means for nations and how that's going to play out in individual countries that's what we did attempted to do that I could very first step with that with that report that we launched last October where we looked at 147 countries and you know how this plays out but we have to really raise the ambition in terms of working with every single country downscaling the boundaries downscaling the action downscaling the targets and supporting countries to really saying this is this is how we're going to have to this is how we're going to be able to you know achieve this and how we're collectively going to be able to do it and I think that's where all the work really needs to focus you know right now at WWF you know we're working both at the global level but also at the national level I mean we're in 87 countries so we're working very hard in terms of working with our national level offices and with our regional offices in terms of saying how you know what does this mean within your country right but WWF can't do it by themselves we've got to partner with other organizations health organizations and health ministries and environment ministries and bring all the people together to be able to figure out what it means for for them you know so I would say yeah the very important next step is that national level work that that that really needs to really needs to take place if there was one message you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that had the power to change their life what would it be your message yeah when I worked in Borneo you know I give a lot of talks and individuals would ask what can I do to save orangutans you know they they see these tragic pictures of orangutans losing their home forest being cut and you know they are tragic pictures it's it's it's awful to experience it's it's it's awful to even see it in pictures and they often ask what can they do what can they do to help Borneo you know what can they do to actually help these creatures and I often struggled because it's hard to tell somebody that's sitting halfway around the world what they can do for some other place right but this is why I love food so much because I think every single person wants to wants to make the world a better place they want to leave the world a little bit better way in terms of how they actually found it and that's the great thing about food is by shifting your diets you can actually do something that makes the world a better place that actually makes you feel great it gives you that agency and that power of the food choices that you make every single day three times a day impacts the planet impacts how many people we can feed on the planet it impacts the amount of species that are lost it impacts climate change and it impacts your health and it impacts so many different things just by choosing certain foods over others and being able to choose certain types of dietary patterns over over others you know so if I would say you know there's what's one thing that gives you the agency and gives you the power it's it's it's really the food that you put in your mouth you know also in addition to that I think it's also very hard to tell people what to what to do right you can definitely shift your diets but but there's more that we can do right and I think that's where our individual skills have to come into play you know so if you're a painter then make great art you know if you're a parent then do better parenting and teach your kids if you're a teacher do better teaching if you're a policy maker make better policy you know there are multiple things that each one of us can do depending on what our skill set is and where we are in life that that that can absolutely make the world a better place you know there is a better way to do it we just have to go find it what should young innovators in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make real impact figure out what your skill is and and then double down on it you know I think a lot of individuals look at other people and they say I want to be like that or I want to do that or or this is where I want to head but but it's not where they're where their skill set lies you know and I believe that if you're if you're passionate and if you're hard working and extremely disciplined and you figure out what skills what you're good at what you're not good at then you can you can be successful but it's not going to be without hard work you know people often ask me about hope and am I hopeful and I would say you know hope is not really my north star because hope and motivation they come and go every single day some days you're hopeful some days you're not some days you're motivated some days you're not and that's where discipline and hard work have to come in whether you want to do this whether you don't you just got to sit down you work hard you do what needs to be done and working to make the world a better place is not easy it's it's there there are easier things to do so if you want an easy profession this is this is this is not probably going to be it but it's absolutely rewarding you know you know another thing also that we have to keep in mind is the fact that this isn't some sort of race that we're going to win someday like by 2030 if we have achieved the stg's then we're done you know we can wash our hands and say finished because this is going to be a struggle till 2050 till 2100 till 2200 it's always going to be a struggle in terms of that balance between development and sustainability and it's not going to stop in 20 30 40 50 years so this is a definitely a long game that we all have to make sure that we see and realize and and and pace to a cell for that long game what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start so off i'd have known this back in borneo that helped me so much nothing that's the journey of itself or it's the journey i you know i've done a lot of different things in my life i've i've made a ton of mistakes i tend to jump off cliffs and see where i land i failed i've succeeded i i tend to just see and just learn from those mistakes you know so if so so if anything it's it's uh it's continued to be bold and just be curious and and and and and continue to search and the road will take you where it needs to go so um yeah the journey has really got me to where i am and and i'm doing what i'm supposed to be doing so rent thank you so much for letting us inside of your ideas it's been wonderful to to speak to you and unless you have anything else that we absolutely need to know and you want to tell us we didn't get to talk about i'm done at asking you questions i really appreciate your time well mark thank you so much for this and thank you for the work that you're doing and just continuing to uh to to innovate and share these ideas with others i mean you know it's it's we need all of us working together with this and i really appreciate the work that you have done and you know are doing so so thanks for the invite and uh yes been fun thank you have a good day bye bye