 Playing with your food That's the mark of a maker The KitchenAid stand mixer and attachments Huge welcome to you all to the British Library Knowledge Center and to everybody who's beaming in On line it is fantastic to see you here My name is Polly Russell and the head of the Eccles Center at the British Library And I'm the founder and curator of the food season and I'm here on stage with my friends allies Partners in Crime Melissa Thompson and Angela Clutton who have been the directors for the food season and this season couldn't have happened without them Those of you who are friends of the food season will know that For the last two years we've had to do the season online So this is we're delighted the people who are joining us remotely But my goodness just to see bodies in this space is so exciting and to have a whole season About to unfold in person is absolutely Thrilling so What a way to start with the amazing Professor Jessica Harris of High on the Hog fame and Andy Oliver of the great British menu fame I mean that is a pretty great way to start The way the evening is going to roll is that um, Angela is going to say something about the food season coming up Melissa is going to introduce Andy they're going to be in conversation for about 45 minutes and then we're going to hand over to the audience for questions So do think of the questions you'd like to ask whether you're here in person or remote And i'm just going to talk quickly very quickly about the food season I mean you all know because you're here that food is the best topic In fact, it's probably the only topic and every year with the food season we try to Through food tastes and food talks bring together Food obsessives foods experts food leaders to really explore that subject and this evening is a fantastic case in point Now before I hand over to Angela. I just want to do a few Thanks. I want to thank Of course everybody here you have all come here my amazing guest directors I want to thank the kitchen aid kitchen aid have been sponsoring the food season for three years And they've stuck with us through kovat Four years and they stuck through with us through kovat. I want to thank them so much for their support I want to thank John Fawcett who's the head of Events at the british library and all the events team. They are the dream team They have brilliant ideas. They get things done, but they also leave us alone to get on with it Which is just fantastic I want to thank unique media who we work with to do our some of our digital content But also our amazing avi team as well. So those are the people I want to thank I want to Invite you all to join us at the end of this because this is the launch of the 2020 food season Join us all at the end for a glass of wine. Please in the foyer. We'd love to meet you all and talk to you And I think that is my rolodex of everything I had to say. So I am handing over to Angela. Thank you very much Polly Polly's just done a great job of thanking lots of people, but I think we surely might have shout out to Polly who's a founder and the creator of the food season and Well, a joy to work with and the Intellect and the energy to kind of pull this together is phenomenal As you will see if you have a look at our season all that online so many events. I think 20 25 or so events Definitely not going to talk about them all but a few things we have in the end of the season We have Angela Hartnett with Itzmer Shulovich or very Melissa is in conversation with Ainslie Harriet We have some guests Food season guests here tonight who are taking part in the season, which is fabulous Including Kate Young and Sarah windman who are doing an event about a freedom of fiction Next week we've got Dan Saladino who is Doing an event inspired by his book eating to extinction with Jessica Harris We had tonight and then we have chocolate next week as well. So loads and loads and loads coming up With a fabulous start tonight Yes, I mean this is this is Sorry Um, yeah, I mean tonight is just I'm really excited about tonight and it's been amazing Well, I'm not just saying it's just been so much fun working with both of you. Um, tonight is everything I'm going to introduce Andy Needs very little introduction one of our most exciting brilliant broadcasters from Great British menu And I know very little about fashion, right? But I know a style I'll come when I see one and that is Andy and um, and also, yeah She's got a book coming out next year, which I'm really excited about and um, and her amazing, um, documentary Which I think is still an iPlayer the Caribbean with Andy and Makita, which was you know, I think for for sort of diaspora And and like for everyone. I think everyone can take something from it. And so I urge you to go and watch it Um, I think that's it. I think let's get to it. Um, so I'd like to introduce Um, Andy Oliver and Dr. Jessica Harris to the stage, please Take that one and I'm gonna take this one good evening everybody We are alive, right Gosh, don't worry me so early on into the proceedings. Please southern baptist church Good evening. Good evening. Do I need to just resonate a little more for some response? How are you all? Better That was much better, wasn't it? Uh, welcome to the british side. We welcome to this little chat that i and jessica are gonna have I'm very thrilled to be here last time jessica and I met was on a screen At the american embassy So we did this sort of started at this conversation What was it in 10 months ago something like that? I don't even know when it was my whole timeline has gone weird with the No one knows what time it is. It's not just a song title. Yeah, it happened and it was great. That's all I know now, um, dr. Harris dr. Jessica B. Harris has written so many books and Is an expert of the heart matters I think it's kind of interesting when I look at your body of work because I realize that One of the things that really strikes me about what you do is that There's an a real truth to it and a real heart truth to it And I think that's what gives your work such weight and resonance and why it speaks to so many people So i'm really thrilled that you're here and i'm really thrilled. We're gonna have this conversation Um, I want to start. There's a little bit This is a beautiful book Iron pots and wooden spoons one of jessica's books There's an introduction that I want to read before we start talking because I think it Kind of gets to the key the nub of things somewhat In my mind's eye There is a crescent a sinuous imaginary line that begins on moritanius coast And sweeps downward along africa's palm fringed beaches From the buff colored sand dunes of senegal and moritania Through the lagoons of the ivory coast and beyond to togo benin and nigeria Then down to the forested regions of countries with names like drum beats Congo garbon angola This same line continues to sweep across the atlantic carrying with it music gesture speech dance joie de vivre and yes food This line is not static. It is mutable a lifeline and umbilicus Its flow has enriched the mother continent africa and the new world It is a conductor of people and of culture. It is brought to the new world africa's rhythms Africa's spirit and perhaps most pervasively africa's food I think that's a beautiful powerful bit of writing There's a there's a quote on the front of this book that says one of those rare books that makes clear why food is important and how food Helps people understand themselves and their history. How would you say that that works really because people talk a lot about Food being a lens through which we can view all sorts of history and ourselves But what does it really mean? Well, I think first of all that book was written more than 30 years ago So that that was a different World, yeah, but I think that the other thing is that part of that is Food connects us. It's the human condition if we don't eat we're gonna die It's real simple. It's basic And for all of the people who you know get their knickers in a knot about it um If you think about food, it is so much a part of us That we really can't separate ourselves from it. So it is It is our connector. It is the thing that joins us. It is the thing that keeps us In touch with ourselves but equally in touch with each other Because it is it is a thing that can become a lingua franca It is a thing that Hopefully can make us better than we're currently behaving, but that's another story But yeah, yeah So now I want to go back a little bit because I've just read well actually I listened to you Reading your memoir my soul looks back Sorry memoir part one It's a really I have to say it's a beautiful book But honestly listen to jessica reading it Because I listened to it as I wandered around my house And I was kind of potting around doing things. You've got such a beautiful voice. You've got you've been told this before You've got a voice that really resonates and I just found it incredibly comforting and really Sort of transporting Now you describe yourself as something of a a zealig Yes, second half of the 20th century. Do what do what are you alluding jessica? Well, it's the woody outland film. Yes zealig and and you know zealig shows up. He is everywhere. He is sort of ubiquitous And um, I've done that in a funny kind of way. I think I don't remember the passage from you know Verbatim, but essentially I was in paris when the buildings were gray before they turned that lovely, you know sort of warm Caramel color that they are now I was in bayia when george amado was still writing About candomblé and things like that and actually danced in those candomblé rings when he was at ceremony I um, I spent hurricane gilbert in jamaica. Oh tiki. Yes in constant spring And at at a friend's house. So, you know, I like to tell people like a little jamaican creed I um was in new orleans before katrina, you know, when people were there I knew ellis marsalis and all of his sons and his his late wife um I've kind of shown up Here and there in places that have then become places that people look back at and go Wow, those were the days it's quite interesting that Stuff actually because people end up asking you questions of like Did you know that it was historical? Well, obviously it was just tuesday Well, it was yesterday, but I think there was also a little bit of a sensibility of But it's a special tuesday Did it feel special as some of it felt special? Certainly the new york that the book is about felt special You you paint a picture of new york at that time. When is it when what time are we talking about? What years are we talking about? I would guess it's the 70s and you described places like el faro and Man somebody's been But so vividly that I can almost taste Those dishes and you do actually Throughout your writing use food As a way into memory Does that makes does that make sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. It's not just proust, you know I don't have quite the mad len, but you know, sometimes it's the caldo gaiegel from from el faro. I think that Of all of our senses Site is wonderful when seeing things, but for me the senses that take me back Are taste But almost more than taste smell It's a smell and taste are so interconnected that it's probably a little bit of both but That ability to smell something and have it completely transport you Or to taste something And you know, you're sitting at your grandmother's stove And you're tasting it, you know on that tasting spoon Or the back of your hand And You know, I think those are the things that that Carry me You know the taste of memory the scent of memory So how how was it to write that memoir for you because it is It's very personal you talk about your relationships with all sorts of extra. It's like Incredible cast of people moving through the book. You know, there's Nina Simone, Myra, Angelo, James Baldwin Your ex-partner Sam How was it to delve back into those days and really Did you re-experience things quite vividly? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, also I have An extraordinary editor. I don't know that we give our editors Due credit. So my editor's name is Kathy Belden And she was the same editor that did High on the Hog, right? And so we've only done two books together High on the Hog and then my soul looks back And somehow or other we have bonded in a way and that You know, seemingly free-flowing, you know expression of my soul took 15 rewrites and a whole lot of tears But that was you know, I trusted Kathy and she trusted me and so she would say Jessica, don't be so mean spirited I was like, okay, I'll take that I won't quite say it that way You know, but so you know, so I think that that that process Was good and I didn't realize how Really how much That time had formed me until I started looking at it. I mean it was such a Sort of feckoned time. There just seems to have been so many things happening people writing their books that were going to become massively Important throughout but for the rest of the world people doing plays and making music and doing all sorts of incredible things Do you Is there a sort of responsibility that comes with memoir? When when you're talking about other people and telling your stories in relation to them, how does that work for you? I've already said this once today too. I don't know if Michelle is here, but if she is she'll remember I've quoted Steven Morris a fair amount Steven Morris said You better tell your story well Because if you lie it will come to pass Steven Morris is little stevy wonder for those of you who didn't get that reference and so I think that's your responsibility in terms of memoir Is you know, I can only tell it from my point of view But to be true to my point of view So that it At least that part of the history Is there I mean, I think that you know, it's sort of like the blind man and the elephant Everybody grabs onto a different piece of it. So somebody might have been in exactly the same room with a totally different story But I think if you can find a way to put all the pieces together then you get the story But I think you know in terms of writing memoir it's about Be true to it be true to yourself in it, which is the hard part. And I think that's do you think that's uh A kind of code for life probably Probably yeah, yeah, I think so. I feel like that that's something that we have to yeah Kind of maintain and connect to you see whatever we're doing will remind ourselves of it Because I don't think we do enough. I mean, I think we get caught up in you know, the maelstrom and the strum and drong that is every day And you don't remember that. Hey, this is my life I need to Not necessarily be in charge of it because I don't know that I've ever been that But I need to at least be in it And I think that's important to be truthful to it Central in the book is your relationship with sam floyd Talk to me a little bit about sam. I mean he is a bright shining creature Yes He was indeed sam is no longer with us, but sam um Samuel clemons floyd the third which is a fair name For a fair gentleman and he was a a gentleman and a gentle man. Um We taught at the same, you know institution. We both taught at queen's college. Um, my mother who was my you know caretaker and my rock Hello moms My mom down there. Yeah, and Sorry sitting next to polly's mom. She's like there are multiple. We're much to be momed this evening Some mom some mom crew. Yeah, it's there's a mom crew But I think my mom worked at queen's college as well. She was a secretary You know it became an administrator From a secretary and there was a job opening and I was doing a graduate year in france. And so she would go and periodically badger sam Have you still got that job for my daughter? You know, it was a whole kind of Relationship that they had that involved her my mother was all of five one at her tallest So she would go yapping at his ankles Rocket kind of things like yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I did missiles the little napoleon. Yes So mom would do that. So the job was there. I ended up with the job. I started out teaching french not teaching english And somehow over over the course of probably the first two or three years of my teaching the job We sort of circled around each other circled around each other and finally sort of landed in a relationship Uh, the thing that was extraordinary about sam was He was extremely intolerant. He took no tea for the fever african-american expression I don't know if it makes sense to anybody else, but if you don't take any tea for the fever It means you take no guff from anyone No tea for the fever I've never heard that Old african-american southernism Yeah, it takes no tea for the fever didn't suffer fools gladly or well or often if he had any Did that make you because you were a bit younger than him? I was about 15 years younger So did you feel them with somebody like that if his gaze was on you and his love was a new slightly? I was in a kind of Peculiar position. It was you know, it was it was what it was and it was you know It was glorious while it was glorious and then it was what it was when it wasn't But but the thing was that um Because he was so intolerant in a way A lot of the people at queen's college sort of like backed off. I mean he had an astounding intellect And in fact, um James Baldwin's sister Um told me that had he not pre-deceased jimmy He would have been jimmy's executor Literary and otherwise so that and James Baldwin was his best friend So much of the story is about those relationships And so that kind of intellectual rigor That kind of level of conversation Was somewhere Very different From what was going on a lot of places in the 70s and 80s And then there was a whole lot of other stuff that was parallel Because it was new york city. It was the beginning of aides in new york city It was the beginning of well It was the middle of this new black renaissance in new york city the black arts movement So you had all of these sort of things rolling and roiling together And and it was it was an exciting time to be alive And how did how did you then amongst that you started to write about food and you started to think about the sort of Lines that we kind of recognize in your writing now. How did those relationships and that time inform Your work? Well, it's funny because I was actually writing before I met Well, I mean not necessarily before I met sam but before sam and I had a relationship I was the um initially the book review editor for essence And then by the I guess mid Late 70s. I was the travel editor for essence and doing feature work for them And so I had met tony morris and I did I now found out it's probably the second major article that was done on her and it was an in-depth interview Back in 1970 lord knows what And so some of the people I had met in my own way And then the knowing sam and through sam that entire sort of constellation of folks um As a result of knowing sam so that sometimes the the knowledge got squared or or you know To a different power in that sense. So it was fun And did it do you think that actually having that because interesting to me that those things became your everyday life That kind of intellectual rigor that kind of working at this kind of level that sort of normalized for you Do you think that is something that pushed your? creative thrust I think it did I think it did um I'm gonna Tell a story sort of out of school. Oh, you tell us a story One of the members of the the group Was oh gosh a lady named rosa g and rosa g wrote What were there now sort of categorized as a young adult books? But she was you know a writer a real real show enough writer And rosa was very flirtatious And occasionally she would you know Find a gentleman that she had an attraction to let bring him home And put him out In the morning because she had to go to work I have to do my writing so you must go home So there you go So there's all of that kind of stuff that you know the writing was Right important the backbeat It was really almost the heartbeat of their lives in a funny kind of way that I don't know I experienced then it's with hindsight that that writing that being true to that place and that person is that And was that and that was the sort of the puto mita in the central point. Yeah Around which everything else worked So taking it very seriously taking it very very seriously you just you describe a time with um, James Baldwin when you went to stay in france And you you talk about that that he would appear And you'd have dinner and then he would disappear again because he was writing Absolutely because he was writing tell me about experiencing James Baldwin writing Reading to you Please um Wow The the book that just became a movie the last couple of years if bill street could talk um I was Fortunate remember now. I am 15 years younger than sam and 20 to 25 years younger than everybody else. I'm a kid Yeah, and for all of my talking about them and knowing them I mean if if he came in he'd say hi jessica kind of thing I need to be very particular about reminding people I was the tail And that last little part of the tail on the kite of their friendship. Yeah, okay. We were not calling each other. Hey, my You know that was not a relationship. I was the kid. I was in the room You know soaking it in. Yes. Absolutely. I mean talking, you know hamilton quote I was in the room when it happened But you know, I wasn't necessarily central to the room where it happened So I just need to be clear on that but as a result of the friendship with sam I got to spend a week with with uh, jimmy and I did call him jimmy in sample de vence And it was you know 25 26, you know, so I'm like And um, so I packed all of this stuff and tried to figure out what I what do you bring to james ball One's our house gift Well, hot sauce If in doubt there you go when in doubt always bring the hot sauce so I had found these massive bottles of hot sauce You know, um As fate would have it one of them broke in the luggage. Oh my god. Oh, there you go You know, there's nothing to match the thrill of and they were glass bottles So they're glass shorts and now everything is covered in hot sauce So that was a way to enter You know, someone's house is like, hello little, you know, redolent of, you know, louisiana red But yeah, so, um You know, we had established this this whole kind of relationship um Baldwin's house which unfortunately has been torn down Deep deep sadness about that Um, that's terrible. Yeah, it's it's pretty awful callous Very. Um, but um, he lived downstairs And the guest sort of rooms were upstairs And so he would retreat And you you know, and it was pretty computer. So you'd hear a typewriter. Yeah, you know that That sound so, um You know, we'd hear him and then one night he decided he was going to read And he made popcorn Which I thought was interesting and made popcorn the old fashioned way, you know in a pot and stuff Not the not the microwave. Yeah um Made popcorn and we all trooped downstairs And he read if Beale Street could talk Looking dead at me A little bit scary though very So then, um, you know, and what do you think? Lovely It's good, you know, what do you think? I think I'm over my depth here. Um But then about three days later in the space of that same week Tony Morrison showed up Now what I've subsequently learned is that Tony and Jimmy had a friendship That was based on many things, but they could read each other's work As deep and profound writers In ways that some of the other people in that group want there was a kind of Automatic, I mean people kind of knew where they parked. I was down there everybody else But, um He made popcorn again He read the book again Looking this time to Tony And at the end of it She didn't go into a long and depth thing, but she said yes, you've got it I didn't realize until that moment. It's written from the point of view Of a young woman right who was my age, which is why he was looking at me Which was exactly why he was looking at me and why he wanted to know some and why he wanted, you know, he wanted to I didn't know enough to say that But Tony said it and when she said it's like, oh, I get it now, you know, I can say this now You know, but it was too late. Yeah, but I mean, but that was an extraordinary experience. Absolutely. Absolutely. And And I had because I had known Tony from that article that I had done I knew that she was meticulous I interviewed her Right after the bluest I she just finished Sula. Wow That's how long ago that was Um And I remember we were in her office in Random House because she was an editor as well as a writer So she would edit at Random House then go upstairs to enough and be edited But she was um Parsing out or reminding how she had parsed out the first sentences in Sula And the beginning of Sula, they're tearing down the african-american community to build a golf course And I remember her saying they tore down the blackberries and the brambles And she was a such a thoughtful writer that she had decided the blackberries for the sweetness of life And the brambles for the pain for the thorns and the thorny things But that was already there in the subtext of that writing to that degree that kind of detail Absolutely, that's why her writing has that's why her writing is what it is That makes us feel the way that it makes us feel now. I want to go back to food because you know, we associate you completely with food There are moments in all of your books your cookbooks aren't just cookbooks There's a moment in my soul. It's back moments in my soul. It's back where you're describing food in such a way That I Literally feel like I'm there. There's a meal that you had with George Gahan Yes, and I I'm like I can smell the truffle This incredible the hagu de truffe. It was a truffle stew. Oh my word. I mean, I I found it so Transporting. Thank you. Is that important to you? I think it I mean, I think it's how I experience things. I mean that was It was a meal that I had once It was a meal that I had at this point probably 45 years ago. I love that you can remember it in such detail I um Bless slash cursed with that. I mean, it's my I have my father's memory and my father was very much self-taught But he had the ability which is a pretty extraordinary thing and I've inherited some of it to call up What he needed Exactly at the moment he needed it. So it's not just food with you Not always it can go sometimes beyond food, but that that meal came back Full you know full blown from Athena's left ear. It was you know, there it was I was there. I wasn't there. Yeah, and you know, it was and I there are no notes. There was nothing. I mean, I did Do a little kind of prep. I went online and sort of looked up Shigara I should have said okay, but that only thing I learned from that pretty much was that there was a He was noted for those little what I call vegetable infanticide, you know, those little teeny tiny vegetables of nuvel cuisine you know, so I'm very interested actually because you describe yourself as a Francophile and you live there and you have this extraordinary culinary experiences with french food We are living at a time, you know, it's 2022. Is that what it is? That's what they tell us. I know they said they tell us in 2022 But we're living at a time where the conversation is starting to change around culinary excellence and I wonder what you feel about the hierarchy of culinary appreciation in that the french cuisine is held as the gold standard still to this day in 2022 and I feel like society and in our culinary world that other people are still trying to not catch up, but still trying to make room Should there be more room at the table now? Oh good god. Yes Oh, there's no question. I mean, I think that that this kind of Oh, you said hierarchy. All of those arcies. Patriarchy, you know, all of those arcies need to go That's a good t-shirt. Yeah, the arcies need to go. I think that I think some of that is what we and when I say we I'm talking about African Americans and African people in diaspora particularly in the American hemisphere um Need to rear up on our hind legs and say hello Hello Been there done that doing it still good. Um, I think that one of the things that happens is We can become our own worst enemies one of the things that I am kind of Blathering about and hopefully somebody will take me up on it is You have to name it to claim it You know part of why we are so Involved in french food Is because they've done an awful lot of codifying Yeah, you know the la rousse gastronomique if it's made with green grapes, it's a la fleuroncine if it's this it's that it's The mother soul say yeah, yeah, you could put anything on a plate and call it a jerk You can because we have not defined it It's true and I really wish people would stop taking that hallelujah Really a lot to take. Yeah, it's it's you know, but we need to define our own food And but do we also need to value? Well, first of all, we need to value it But part of that is I think Defining it the complexities of jerk Steamed over smoke um But not just any smoke steamed over allspice although when I was last in jamaica They told me all those allspice tree didn't exist very much anymore and it was now steamed over logwood So I don't know where this allspice is that everybody's getting but that's another story That's another story. Um, but but that you know, what what what is that? You know, what is escoviche? You know and why and how and why and you know Well, I I did little research on that and it's from escoviche And it from escoviche comes from skibish, which is persian right in a good thing So we've got now the persian Through the um, you know, the almoad amoravids all of those folks in spain Then the spanish taking it as escoviche and then it becomes skaviche So we've got all of that history in there That means it's cooked a specific way that means that there is history and technique that comes with it and We'll talk about that. You just like well, it's I think we take it for granted I feel like we there's so much skill involved in like the the cooking from the african diaspora It's and it's all also very very different. You know, we're still living at a time Where people call caribbean food jamaican food. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and the food of every island is different You know, we look at your oh, yeah There you go and um How do you think we start to Shift that kind of paradigm? Well, I think we start well, there's first of all, I'm working on something Oh, that you need anybody who knows me knows to be afraid when I say I'm working on something I have spent the past two and a half years helming a committee for the culinary institute of america And come fall of 2020 they will be beginning a concentration in the food of africa and its diaspora in the americas And And one of one of the things about that that was so extraordinary is because this is a place that is deeply embedded in and invested in you know, like cuisine francaise um is that The instructors Were gobsmacked at the technical complexity of some of this food Somebody was teaching injera You know the ethiopian injera And fermented. Yeah. Yeah The complexity of the fermentation of the the grain of the how you spread it how They were like, oh Wait, y'all y'all got some techniques too. It's like, yeah, guess what we do There's a lot of skill a lot of skill a lot of things that people don't really think through and we don't give ourselves credit Because we're so used to not getting credit that we don't give ourselves credit for the things that we do um, and certainly in terms of food because Of the kinds of foods that we had to survive on The techniques In many cases took Primacy of place Because the techniques were the only things that could Make it Something else Something better exactly the proverbial, you know silk purse out of the sows ear I'm quite interested in I'm going to move to high on the hog briefly But I'm quite interested in some of the like there's that wonderful Woman cooking on their gab reality and who is like trying to really move Things forward unless she makes a smoke. I know I talked about this last time we were talking because I'm obsessed by the smoked beetroot cornbread, okay It's haunting me the smoked beetroot cornbread is haunting me But I was it really led me to thinking about how when you're cooking dishes that have a kind of History And you start to move things on you make it your own and you kind of want to change things up people really don't like it No, they don't they get you know, why why do you think what is it? We're hanging on to I think I think Change terrifies folks But I also think that We are not necessarily Approaching the change I don't want smoked beetroot cornbread Only with my collard greens, you know on New Year's Day I want mama's cornbread on New Year's Day But if you go to Gabrielle's house, but if I go to Gabrielle's and I'm at one of her things then that's fine But I think that the whole idea is don't throw the baby out with the bath water I think in some cases everybody's in such a hurry to get to the and it's got this and We've got a little twizzle on the top and there's a cherry and it's like you don't need all of that stuff Yeah, you know sometimes the basic thing was pretty darn good So do you think that comes back again to like trusting in the value of the original? I think so I think there is a very Real large need for Self-trust You know understanding that It's not only okay It's very very good And that's all it's supposed to be It's not supposed to be a turducken If you know what a turducken is it's a louisiana It's not a kind of turkey in the with turkey stuff with a duck stuff with a hand. I'm not I'm not I don't like that. Yeah. No. Well, who does but some weird people like it. Well, that would be in the world that I work in Let's not let's not go. Yeah. No. No. No. I mean, but the whole the whole idea is We are I think generally Attracted by complexity And sometimes simplicity Is the thing is and actually when you let something shine and let it be in and of itself That's where the beauty But then I'm also it leads me to think that Actually, you know, you mentioned it yourself when we when people were when loads of these dishes that we're talking about this The ideas, you know, the basic dishes that we see at the at the heart of kind of african diasporic cooking When these things were being invented it there was Real imagination a real creativity there So I also feel that the modern chef Who's cooking in this area Is honoring that spirit. I think a lot of them are I think a lot of them absolutely are I mean and particularly when they do things like they go back to old recipes when they look at New ingredients or new old ingredients You know those those things that grandma might have used that you're not using because can't find don't know Never thought about it. But that sort of retour source the return to the sources Is is a very interesting way of of making things happen And I think that there are a growing number of young chefs not just in the states, but Certainly throughout the carabi and on the african continent as well In london in the uk um in france who are looking at Taking the traditions And and melding them and and you know and bending them and and Reshaping them not into something that is unrecognizable But something that is an extension of what came before and I think that's wonderful And it's something there's something in there isn't there about connecting yourself To that history and allowing that history to speak through you through you exactly Which is a beautiful thing now before we i'm aware that i'm supposed to ask for you I just need to ask one more question again High on the hog two Yes, tell me about high on the hog two. What's what's that? When's it happening? How's it happening? It's getting ready to start I mean we're getting ready to in the next month or so One month or two start shooting. Have you been amazed at the response to the first? staggered Absolutely staggered. I mean and I think one of the things that people don't realize but it's part of why I'm personally so staggered is The book is 11 years old You know, it's like Okay, it did you know it was born and it kind of died a born in and then it was there and it was on the shelf I had 200 copies unsold in my office at queens college You know now I've got first editions You know, um hardbacks, you know, so but I mean so But I mean but you know that It was they've been sitting there for a long time. It's it's an extraordinary book the netflix series is absolutely incredible We spoke a little bit Before we came on about you suddenly becoming so visible And that transition so do you think that's going to get even more tricky to all right. It's uh slippery slope You know, it's a peculiar place. I mean and and I think at At my age and I'm not going to tell everyone Unless you pride me hard, um, but um I'm used to being me a certain way in the world And it's very interesting to be Kind of pushed out to be me a different way in the world is like what? You know, I'm not sure I'm ready for this Well, we're all very grateful that you are being pushed out and we're really it's so beautiful to have you here Um, I'm assuming There are people out there who have questions. I know I've got to stop talking. Well, obviously that's not going to happen, but On my own are there any questions from the lovely audience there? We are have a couple over here Who's got the microphone check one two? Someone walking upstairs? Yes, there they come Here we go. Oh beautiful Coming at you from both sides Yeah Thank you so much. Um, it is so lovely pleasure to be here. I'm visiting from the states. You hear the accent um I have a question about what you're working on as far as this recognition um of of black food ways professionally and um a recognition of the technique and and really elevating The public perception of black food ways with that There's always a trade-off a little bit um because once you're being taught in culinary school Then you have other people becoming experts in these food ways and as we know I'll just say it when white people get involved in things and are able to call themselves experts in things they Take up all the space in the room So What can we I'm a I'm a home chef that does pop-ups and I'm not quite a real chef, but Well, I Stop that now I will stop that but as a person who Loves food and loves sharing food and loves sharing fellowship around food Um, and loves doing that in a real black way How do you counter that space being taken up? Yeah, that's how I mean well several things um Talked about stevie wonder before now. I'm going to talk about aretha um R e s p e c t That's what must be demanded That's what must be given That's what must happen The problem is Uh food is to be shared You can't keep it a black thing because if you keep it a black thing everybody be talking about well Nobody wants to come to black people and I don't want to know what am I going to do now? It has to be shared But it has to be shared with respect And respect must be demanded Respect must be given um And it must be appropriately priced. Let's you know, I mean we start talking about all kinds of things We can get down that rabbit hole known as appropriation Everybody appropriates Who made the first arm what damned if I know? You know, so we all appropriate The point is aretha R e s p e c t yes Borrow borrow as much as you want to I need to be appropriately paid I need to be appropriately credited I need to be In a place that is you know appropriate to the food that I am serving at the level at which I want to serve it And if all of those things are in place Come on y'all. I want to share If they're not then the discussion is different The discussion is about how do we make those things happen? And that's the important part Yes, there will be people who claim to be experts in this but you know how often I was where was I a couple of nights ago I was in an indian restaurant And it's one of the places that I love to go and I find I looked at the bottom of the menu and the was like Chef decrees in joe mccarthy. It's like oh Well dang skippy, you know, so, you know, it's um How do we deal with that? How do you you know and it is my one of my favorite indian restaurants? The entire staff is indian But that's the name that it that now I'm making an assumption that joe mccarthy is not indian he could be So, I mean, so they're all of those things. I mean we have become such a mix of folks That how are we and particularly now that we're talking about dna and stuff how are we going to take this thread and it's there and that Thread and it's there and that thread and it's What do you do? How do you do that? I don't know my suggestion Would be And this is a sam quote Sam floyd quote Sam when he was rearing up on his hind legs used to say I don't cover much ground But you better believe I'm covering all the ground I'm standing on Cover the ground you stand on That's the important thing. I want to say it's add to you You're a chef. I can tell by the way you speak So you have to value yourself And you have to have the confidence in what you're doing. Don't worry about other people Don't watch them as they say watch yourself And do what you do with all the heart I can tell you have and all the passion and all the skill and all the knowledge that you have Just do it the best that you can do it and believe in yourself And then nobody else can step to you and cover the ground you stand on because you do There's a gentleman there. Oh, he's got a mic already They're holding on to it. Oh, it's not on. I don't think it's working though. Oh, it is now, okay I'm going to try and make this as very quick as possible From reading your memoir. I know you've been extensively across the caribbean And obviously you spent time with Nina Simone in the caribbean in Barbados in particular And for a long time she had a relationship with Errol Barrow, of course, who Is the prime minister of Barbados and anyone that knows anything about him. He was a very very very good chef And I know this is not exclusive to caribbean culture, but I've asked a few academics this some of my friends conversations amongst family members about Why are caribbean men in particular? Very good cooks Now it's not exclusive to that culture in particular Of course, but it's something that's always always always always mentioned and even to this day People might find this might be they might find it a sexist thing But I didn't grow up. I grew up in britain, but I didn't grow up with this thing that women get in the kitchen I saw family members tell women get out of the kitchen. We're controlling this Like because and they would admit that most of the time No, honestly most of the time the men were the better cooks and that's not me saying it in a boastful way No, wait Okay, what it is is that men think they're better cooks and then Men Will tell you that they are doing it better because they assume they have the right to take all that space up There's a reason why i'm asking this. There's a reason why i'm asking this in particular Sorry, you just tickled a little tickle because If I think from an african diasporic point of view That's the first thing people always come and say to us and they say that their men don't particularly cook But there's something about caribbean men in particular And two things that normally come up is to do the matriarchal nature of the culture because a lot of households are run by women So instantaneously Men learn from the women They think it's also to do partly to do with plantation culture that a lot of women kept their boys close to them Because they didn't want to get people to get close to their sons So it's a particular question. It's not from a sexist point of view. I'm just particularly curious I'm gonna be a school teacher here and go. I haven't heard a question yet What's the question why in particular there was such Caribbean men have so high esteem around cooking and they appreciate And a lot in a lot of people see caribbean men as very good cooks But that's not particularly across the diaspora. It's in the caribbean scene a lot Still no question I have something to say Can I say something you say and then I'll so my dad was a really good cook But he was a really good cook. I mean my mom is sitting right here. I can see her smiling My dad was a really great cook. He was a really good like celebration cook So every single pot would get used the whole house would be turned upside down the food would be amazing But we had to clean it up Okay, um, and I I think that carib a lot of the time caribbean men will take that sense of occasion I don't know that it's just caribbean men. No That's a very good point. I'm just thinking about my dad But I mean my father couldn't cook a lick, right? I mean could not cook a lick But um, I also think that there is a kind of gendered cooking In some of the african-atlantic world Masters of the flame Mistress of the stew pot Okay, I think that there is very much that gender divide, but I also think that it is that celebratory thing It's the I'm you know, we're doing hog killing. Yeah, everything goes. Uh, we're doing whatever and I have said Makes french people a little crazy When august escoffier went home He probably expected his wife to have dinner on the table So I think that there is all of that involved in it as well. Who's doing the daily cooking The every day. Oh my lord. It's Tuesday. There are two meals I've got to be sure that the kids have something for school and then there's dinner and Who's doing that and more often than not Caribbean or not it's women It really is Do you agree? You're I like you you're brave. Thank you Nice. Thank you Good discussion. Any other questions So there's a lady down here and there's another lady out there. We can come both ways. Can I go? Is it on? Hello. Hello. Hi. Um, thank you so so so much Disembodied voice. I see you. Yes. Hi. Sorry. Disembodied voice I'm actually an african-american born abroad with the most english accent apparently it's coming out very english I don't know what's happening, but um, I I've been trying to fight for soul food in london for a long time So, um, this is wonderful to see it coming together And see how people, you know want that kind of Um history You know, it's the same diaspora that we we miss because there's an ocean, but I feel like it's it's necessary here I'm also vegan and I was in america One in eight african-americans are vegetarian or pescetarian. It's a bit less here, but it's it's coming so I was there's a lot of arguments about whether or not veganism and soul food or Veganism can be part of black food ways black path with like black history food history And I was just wondering if you had any any thoughts on the role of meat in soul food or black cooking or the role of and whether there's space for vegans and to kind of Have it's own lane in that sense. Oh, absolutely I mean, I think I think one of the things that if you start to look at the history of it If you look at the traditional diets Of the continent and now I'm speaking in, you know glorious and horrific generalities But it's plant-forward It's plant-forward so that there is already history And the deep history I think um I think there's one kind of confusion I've eaten in a fair number of of vegan soul food places My problem is I'm going to share this with you because I do that um I like tofu Why are you trying to tell me it tastes like spear ribs? It doesn't It just doesn't You know everybody's trying to say oh that little tofu thing it tastes just like fried chicken. No, it doesn't That's my problem. I happy eating vegetables happy eating tofu happy But I mean just don't try to make it what it is And that's that's my only argument other than that. I'm happy So we have a we have a real history as you know, like I tell food is vegan. Well, exactly Says veganism is not right. Not black. Oh, not just school them. I mean, yeah, there's an idea There's a there's a like that being vegan is a white thing and that there's nothing to do with history And obviously if you do the research you will very clearly see but not everyone does that So how like like is there a way because again that I think that's why they do that This is this is ribs because we that's cultural because things get sold back Into into culture don't they so if you look at seasonality eating seasonally. This is As old as the hills. It's the only way you ate you had no choice because that's what was there Yeah seasonality nose to tail eating all of these like lovely buzzwords Yeah, all of these kind of notions are not new ideas But they are Repackaged and sold back in a particular way. So I tell food has been around for you know, ever Nose to tail eating has been around for ever. Don't let anybody tell you how to be how you're allowed to be yourself You know people will tell you. Oh, it's not black. Excuse me. What does that even mean? You know narrow ideas about what experiences you're allowed to have who you're allowed to be what you're allowed to reach for Who cares what they think you keep cooking your do what you do I Thank you so much. I agree. And I think my question is really more based on this idea that Meat has is fundamental to the culture And I think that that's that's a that's like that, you know a lot of even in in I'm high on the hog There was a moment when they Kind of spoke about how it was once a year or once a season or something like that and they spoke a bit about Meat consumption well hog killing time Yeah, but I mean I think if you're talking about african-american food and looking at that You're looking at pre and post emancipation diets You're looking at the increased amount of meat consumption post emancipation because it represented That thing that you could not have before So there are all sorts of things that feed into all of those notions Um, you're also talking certainly pre and immediately post emancipation about Uh diets of agricultural workers He would eat that and then get up and go out and plow the back 40 And then come back and and have lunch and go out and plow the front 40 And you know you weren't sliding you're ever expanding back side into the seat of your Mercedes to drive three blocks to work So it was a different kind of Thing you know laborers diets are different Of necessity because you know, that's one of the reasons it's interesting when you really look at a A plate of Caribbean food or african-american food. There's like five different types of carbohydrate You know, we'll have yams sweet potato cassava rice and iris potato on one plate People like what are you doing? And that's what it comes up It's like people needed that carbohydrate to be able to do the work that they had to do So we're not there anymore. So maybe we should add some more vegetables to our to our well I think people are well, I have to say that there's so many black places I want to go to african places. I want to go to but they don't do vegan options So anyone in the room who's a chef I always do I will go to a letter. Who's who's who's booing? Tell me tell me where Are there any more questions you the lady down here wanted to and there's another lady here What time am I meant to stop? Probably five minutes ago, but I was wondering Is it called a parcel now? Oh god ages lovely Okay, I have a few thoughts which I'm hoping to String together into a coherent question um One of the things that I think is something that I'm aware of being A kind of person of the Caribbean diaspora granny's antique um But a lot of people of my my granny's age When they arrived in uk the first thing one of the first things that they did was Get an allotment or get somewhere that they could grow things that they were familiar with And one of the things I think being a person of the diaspora and very aware that if I have children There'll be one further step removed from a lot of that culture that I've grown up with and a lot of that knowledge I've been blessed to be able to attain from those people Or obtain rather is How important do you think it is for us as people of the African diaspora people for whom some of the the ingredients that are central to these dishes that we want to celebrate are not Of this place Come with an extra expense at being imported thinking about things like climate change How important is it for us as people? Who are often coming from communities that are agricultural do have a kind of hand in the land that is producing that food And that common thread With the food linking with the land that you're from linking with the people around you How important do you think it is? perhaps looking to the future for us as Black people I suppose to start thinking about also Do we want to be involved in agriculture? What does sustainable food look like for us as a people displaced from where these ingredients Grown actually I don't know what the State Of return to farming is in the uk But there is a very big very real very active movement in the states of Black farms returning or young black people your age Returning to the land. There's a gentleman named matthew reyford Who has just gone back? He is a sixth generation gala gucci person Vet went to the culinary institute of america Trained as a chef and then returned to his family farm and is now farming There are the pennamon sisters Who are doing work on farming? Natalie bazil has just come we are each other's harvest all about that need to return to the land Urban farmers malik yakini in detroit doing urban farming people farming on rooftops Again another jessica project. I am working with the new york botanical garden And we are planting an african-american garden in the barnsley beds to Celebrate and talk about this deep history of african-americans and an involvement with farming And so that that is very much a movement In the states people are coming together urban people And buying land Buying land with the idea of Farming and so that's that's happening Thank you It's an interesting thought I'm to I kill I kill a cactus Right, I literally can't grow anything, but I think it's a real There's a there's a real it's a really sort of urgent thing Yes, an urgent need for us to reconnect with our food when we my friend kelly's down here We ran a pub together and we used to work with an allotment Just up the road and they would bring us food from the allotment We had like a little barter system So people could bring if they had a glut of something they could bring that and we would swap it out for a lunch Or a starter or whatever it was and there was something as a cook There's something so lovely And really would go on it. Yeah. It's just been pulled out exactly the smell of it The taste of it taste of it and the fact that it's just you and that piece of product you and that courgette you and that obviously whatever it is And there's nothing else that's happened in between right? I think there's something really beautiful about that for all people And I think actually not just people of the african or caribbean diaspora But I think I think I think as city dwellers I think it's really important that we all Reconnect to where our food comes from and how we can access it. I mean, I love the idea of the tomato can I don't I don't know if you have those tomato juice cans. They're probably coming in boxes now, but Can of dirt on the windowsill with something in it is is important just to begin to to make that connection and Particularly for children just to see that it doesn't grow in a little styrofoam box Absolutely and to understand what food is, you know, I've I've sent a child to the shop to buy me your letters And they've come back with a cabbage Yeah, you know, so it's like food recognition just knowing that children understand what vegetables are what they look like You know where the meat comes from where the fish comes from it's really important that knowledge Sorry, I asked you for question. Then I started talking No, it's fine. Um, I think this is working now I wanted to ask you because you you're involved in so many different areas. You're involved in food and literature and history and I wanted to ask what you thought like how those kind of fit together in terms of tradition and nostalgia because I'm really interested in what you think nostalgia and food has a really fond place. I mean if you want to upset someone You you diss, you know, you talk about deconstructed apple crumble or something and they lose their minds But it has quite a So it's quite a dirty word in in literature or history in some ways like so What do you think the ethics of that are like how do you use memory and history? And like that kind of nostalgic fondness for things and how does it square up for you? um, well, I certainly Use it in in writing You know that that's as I said earlier this evening sometimes the taste Or the memory of the taste Is what takes me back to it. I think nostalgia is It is what it is. I mean and and If If ever given the opportunity to go back and actually taste that thing Often you go like oh really? Well, that that's interesting. Um, so nostalgia is Of pretty much definition tinged with sort of of remembered fondness As opposed to necessarily the reality of the thing So, I mean, I think that that can be the danger of nostalgia The the going back and and remembering x or y or z fondly. I'm old enough to remember when lettuce was iceberg period And you know, I'd love a good iceberg salad But I don't know that I'm nostalgic for that point in time And a lot of people particularly who live through well anybody who lived through the early 50s here With rationing still going on, you know nostalgia is like well, maybe not Um, you know, um 50s in the states was a very limited larder We have come so far That I think when we look back we don't look back with the blinders of that time period We look back from here And don't necessarily see the absolute of there And I think that's part of or can be the danger of nostalgia You know that it all was so wonderful back then. No, it wasn't You know Some of it was some of it was You know, you kind of edit stuff. Yeah, it's like There's a really lovely That you touched on it somebody up there touched on it about fellowship. It was you lovely cook lady Chef lady and you were talking she was talking about fellowship and I was thinking about Gabrielle Etienne again and that beautiful table and how and she she sees fellowship and communing around food as her resistance How important do you think that kind of fellowship is? So throughout your work, there's moments of these beautiful parties like just Not necessarily that grand but just full of So much Heart and soul. How important is that? I think that's cardinal. I mean, I think that's That's the reason That's the thing we do. I mean, whether it's You know three people at a dinner table having dinner That is fellowship Favorite word is commensality The coming together to commune over food I think that's an important thing for all of us Um, and it it certainly transcends, you know race and you know to more extensive than not class Certainly gender but that that coming together To commune over food Is you know, it's why we're here. It's what what makes all of this happen. It's why you do what you do It's why I do what I do. It's why you do what you do It's um, it's that That thing that allows us To use the food As a vehicle for connection or to cement the connection And I think that's that's the beauty of food. It's everything to me. Yeah, absolutely It's everything to me. Do we have any more questions on that? Oh, yes, minister Oh, there's a couple more up here. Should we go to them first or should we go? You got a mic Okay Hello Yes, um, it's wonderful to see you and um, I've actually ordered a couple of your books while you were speaking Thank you A run for them if I waited Yeah, I guess I had a couple well I've written Sorry if I look at my notes because I just wanted to kind of sketch out my question I have two questions So you made um, some very interesting points on the interconnectedness of global cultures and ethnicities As people you nowadays start to investigate their heritage with DNA testing and we're um, also aware that You know, a lot of human migration patterns, you know from the Atlantic world, you know the triangular movement and um, the columbian exchange Sorry You know, there's a lot of movement with food Um, so I wanted to look at how you spoke of an institution in america You know looking at maybe codifying the cuisines, you know from those movements, you know in africa and the diaspora So I wanted to know um, how you would do you have any strategy or plans to how you would look at exploring the cultural property Of foods of africa and diaspora nations and the culinary arts. Is that something that you It's something I'm deeply interested in I keep lobbing it out at various audiences hoping somebody will say I'll help you with that so far. Nobody has said anything I have a project where I'm looking at that very deeply. I've that was my covid project So that's why I was very interested in asking how they would go about doing that I also well, I mean, I think I think the first thing is something probably just as simple as a lexicon Okay, yes, uh, you know A guinea pig in jamaica Is not a guinea pig in trinidad and or in antigo. There you go So You know just just that yeah, you know, what do you call this thing just to get people from a variety of places sit them around a table Say what do you call that? Yeah, and then find out the botanical name for it. That's that's exactly what because if we don't do that What we're talking about Yeah, so you spoke of food being the lingua franca. I think it's very important to have a common language that is spoken Exactly. We need to know what we are, you know, what are what are we eating? You know, it's a carambola. Is it what do you call it? You know, what do you call pepper pot? Antigua pepper pots got loads of green Yeah, well your pepper pot is callaloo guineas pepper pot is guineas pepper pot has got casserole Yeah, yeah, and so it's it's all of that and then there's that whole north south jamaican Yeah, you know jamaican southern there's all of it. Joll off. Let's not start Yeah, there you go Let's not name for the empire at senegalese, right Yeah So it's great to even hear the conversation and you know how that sparks it's the following on from that I've noticed that there are only 11 countries in the world that have culinary diplomacy programs America is one of them. United States is one. There are no african or caribbean nations with culinary diplomacy Programs, which would be very great for sort of raising international trade Investment in agriculture food processing, etc So how do you like as an extension of what you may do with the body you're working with would they look at support in that perhaps with Nations that have food products to export or cuisines that could be given to the world You know Thailand the reason we know Thai food so well Thailand has a culinary diplomacy program Which helps to set up Thai restaurants globally Through their ministry So you can imagine even as we speak or Joll off rice every nation, you know, we're very competitive about who does it But even in terms of how how many places can you even eat it? This is quite an interesting point though And because one of the other reasons we know so much about thai food is people started going there People's from here started going to thailand having these life changing experiences traveling around Sampling the food and bringing stuff back with them It's travel is really important travel is very much an important part It was part of the strategy to boost tourism with the restaurants. Of course, right, you know, so it goes What are you proposing? Well, I'm I maybe speak to you after Okay, yeah, I mean for me I have I'm a cultural partner of seabag. You might have heard of seabag It was created after Festac in 1977 So culinary art is not always looked on as an art form when we look at African art We may look at, you know, the plastic arts, but culinary art is something that really needs to be supported with culinary institutions You know here you have the cordon blur or other culinary art schools Which could maybe put that as part of the syllabus But I think it's a ministerial thing that needs to be done with the nations realizing that culinary art is cultural property It should be protected and it should be propagated And it should be funded So if you're a thai person wherever you are in the world You have a restaurant that might be failing they would come in and look at it How could they support you because it's a part of burnishing their image worldwide that helps their tourism Also in Africa, we know as you spoke of sustainability with food We have so much agricultural material That a lot of it is a pharmacopeia. It has medical properties It has, you know, superfood status that we're not even aware of some of the foods that we could be eating That is a huge Resource that can create employment So are you saying that we need to support it and codify it for ourselves and therefore we can control it? Yeah, I think so and we also need to look at the whole pipeline from agriculture As well because before we have food that we're cooking it's grown somewhere It's animals how they're reared So there's a lot of things of husbandry and the rights of the animals or you know the kind of fertilizers you're using It's a very big thing. I think it's a kind of Table needs to be set for nations who are if you'd say I think we need to set it. Yeah Yeah, we could discuss that but I think We're gonna I'm gonna move on because there's a there's a few more questions And we've only got like nine minutes left and I've been doing a lot of chatting But thank you so much well off. Who is next there was another Oh, this lady down here in the really fantastic red dress that I really want Thank you for it. It means so much coming from you. Thank you so much Hello, um, I wanted to ask you just a quite a Simple but not a simple question. I'm a psychologist. I will go here. Um, What is if you don't mind sharing your most evocative food memory? and Oh goodness, um What was the question? What is my most evocative food memory? Ah I can start to cry about it. I know that I am never going to have Thanksgiving dinner with my parents again I don't even try to cook it. I Am a Thanksgiving orphan. I wonder I visit other people. It will never be that meal So I think that's probably certainly one of them, you know, is the the idea of that and it's It's a combination of the things The individual dishes the recipes and everything but it's also You know the place the people that stuff that you know, you're never going to get again Thank you You love markets, don't you? Oh, yeah Tell couldn't you no no ankle deep in pigs will is my favorite Yes, what is it about am I are we talking to a room full of market lovers? I'm assuming Yeah, yeah, I mean I to me that's just heaven It's um, it's the greek agora You know, I literally I was just talking about my mother when my mother died And she died early in the morning And I'm an only child so there was a whole lot of stuff my father had long pre-diseased her I ended up Calling a friend And going to the farmers market. Yeah Life happens in the market It is it is for me the place where I go to center myself Because it is that place where things are going on around you and you can be in whatever particular little ugly world vacuum you're in But you have to be aware that life goes on if you're in the market As opposed to if you're sitting in your room boo-hoo and by yourself if you're in the market You cannot be unaware that there is life And so I think that's part of my love for mark. Do you have uh, I've just really said do you have a strategy? Market shopping strategy. I have a very clear strategy. My strategy is buy it all That's my strategy. I have to start at the top Oh, I have to go and I realized this my dad used to do it to me This is what I realized I used to drive me crazy, but you start at the top. You don't buy anything Oh, no, no, no, no, you have to go all the way because they could be gone by the time you get back No, no, no, but if because if I buy it at the beginning, well, you've got to carry it cheaper Oh, no, I don't care. Oh, I really care I get it. I got my god is 20p cheaper. You know, no, no, no, I am a friend has said to me You're not a shopper. You're a buyer. Right. I'm a buyer. I'm not a shop. I'm a real shopper. So if I find it 20p cheaper I'm gonna buy that too Well, I have twice as much, you know, I can't leave the bargain behind. It really gives me quite a lot of strength Then I've got twice as much. Yeah I mean, I I just remember carrying like Big bags of black eyed peas. My dad used to buy black eyed peas not dried In a bag the fresh ones, but like in the pod And they would have to take them home and pod the peas. Yes. Why do you do this? They sell them dried already out of the box, but now it's good. They're not as good and now I'm like, oh Now you get it. Now you get it. I get it. They're fresh. Yeah, they're different and very different I was completely ridiculous But I get it and I buy osmosis. I took all I learned Wouldn't you be miserable if you got down to the bottom of the market? And the only black eyed peas they had were up at the top and by the time you're getting back up there, they're gone That would make me crazy. It's absolutely Uh a risk Yes, it's a high risk activity. Yes. No, I'm risk averse. No, not that. I need them all It's marketing Mel And I'm just curious as to if someone who has traveled so much and who has friends I think I'm pretty much every continent. What was it like for these last couple of years where Close borders and and and your inability to travel did that You were right with it, baby Uh still twitching I realized coming here. This is my first outing if you will Um, I'm going to be in Europe for three weeks But I have to see everybody so I'm not going to be any one place longer than four days Because I just have you know, it's It's connection for me and the inability to connect With the people who are my world Makes me crazy It was not a good two years And I'm single And I'm an only child and I don't have a lot of family That I talk to I have a lot of dear dear friends Who sustained me and the inability to connect with them Because zoom does not do it. Um Has probably made me crazier than I want to be You know Yeah That's a friend from um nursery school From nursery school. Oh wow. Yep. Hello. Yeah amazing. Yeah, we've met each other for forever How beautiful. Well, thank you so much. Thank you