 Hello, welcome to Conversation. My name is Rosa Maria Costich-Cisneros and I am collaborating with the Independent Theatre Hungary. I am really so happy that I can sit down and speak with Rebecca Zuba and Ned Boysha Markovich. Thank you so much for sitting down with me. As I was saying, I love the plants and the backgrounds, so it's just very inviting. And yes, we're here to talk about I Can See You, which is a work that both of you have a role in. And yes, so we can get started. And I think if you could tell me a little bit about each of you, who you are, where you are, and your role within the work, that'd be great. Thank you. Yeah, thank you very much. So, well, thank you that we are here. We're glad. We're moving forward to it. And so, yeah, we are sitting here in our home in Berlin. And yes. Well, my work now regarding the play and also the film adaption I Can See You is more like on the dramaturgical side and on the assistant side for directing and just where I can help. Yes, but I also have one little role in the theater piece too. Okay. Well, we'll hear more about that a little bit later. Okay. Yes, Ned Boysha, did you want to say a little bit about who you are and your relationship with the work? Yeah, so I can also call myself an actor. Well, you just said that you actually could describe him as an actor, but he prefers like the term of a theater maker or theater producer. Yes, his professional education in Switzerland regarding acting and drama, but he's like, yeah, not only acting. Sure. She likes me leaving. Sorry, acting, but mostly living Yes, yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah. Well, regarding the play, I can see you. It's actually based on the short story or narration by Franz Kafka. It's called the Barrow, or der Bau in German, and Nebushel worked very intensely on Kafka's text. He rearranged the text in another way, in another structure, like not chronologically, and also wrote his own text, which he integrated it into the new text structure he did with Kafka's text. So, kind of, yeah, came out something a little different. And this kind of your input into the text, was that influenced by your cultural background, or any kind of travel that you've done? What were some of the influences into this new part of the text? Well, so in, like, the work from Kafka, it's at one point, it's like very wide, so you can understand it on very different levels, on very personal levels, but like for Nebushel, like there's something missing, which he tried to integrate, and which is very influenced by his Roma background. Yes, okay. Yeah, yeah. This, you know, as a substance from, as an art advisor, we, as Istas Roma, so lately, in Hoytik. Yeah, so especially he tried to show the substance of Roma life, like how it is today, and all these different aspects, Roma or Romani people are confronted with today, not only like from the outside, but also in relationship, yeah, what comes from the outside, what comes from the inside, this constant mechanism he tried to put into this story. And that's kind of relationship of the internal and external. Is that linked to your story, Nebushel, or is that other people's story, maybe from your family or your kind of immediate community, or is it a bit kind of more general, or maybe both? Yeah, actually, both. Okay. So both, it's, it's so that, of course, I started with myself, and also through this observation, and also from other, and also intensive life, also with other people, not only with the family, but also with others, and also followed by work, by other Roma, and also the values that you have set yourself, and that's what I tried to complicate all of this together, so to say. And of course, I just told, there are all these different aspects, not only like what's, what he's dealing with, but also what the community he knows is dealing with, or other Romani artists are focused on, or working on, and he tried, yeah, to like see the whole picture, work on the whole picture, and yeah, like look with very bright and open eyes, and so, yeah. But then, of course, like try to compromise it into something you can deal with, also in an artistic way. Okay. And for those that haven't seen the piece, maybe, without giving away too much, how would you describe the main kind of storyline, and that story, if you can also tell me your own roles within the piece? Well, yeah, the beginning of the whole story actually was in first place, that he was, well, at home, and he couldn't leave, he couldn't go out also during this, yeah, really intense period you all have to face, and then, coincidentally, Rodrigo called him and, yeah, asked him if he would like to participate at the Roma Heroes Festival. He said, like, the whole thing started. So it actually was a very big coincidence that Rodrigo called during this, yeah, very intense time where we all were like in our own boroughs, some were like nicer, some were tighter, and because Nebusha actually was working on the narration for a longer time, and then it happened that like the pandemic situation, the lockdown, and this feeling of being trapped plus Rodrigo's request if you want to participate, like everything falls together, and so we concept it actually a story about a character who lives in his hand-built home and wants to protect himself from any kind of danger, which comes from the outside world, and actually his irrepressible fears overshadows everything else. So it's actually about this kind of journey where the audience, yeah, where we actually never exactly knew what's reality and what is made up by himself, by his mind, by his being, and yes, that's like the short plot. And I think we can all relate to that in some way, especially in this last year. Am I sitting in this chair again? Am I awake? Yeah, so I think that there's a lot of, you know, things that people can understand, and earlier you said that, you know, there's a kind of internal and external, and so I think that the work really kind of speaks to that internal external fears or kind of thinking or that process quite nicely. And so thinking about now the work, and as the world is kind of coming out of this very restrictive life we've had, is there something memorable for you that you remember about making the work, sharing the work, or even preparing for the, you know, the next step of the work that comes to mind? Is there anything memorable? Is there a memorable moment for you? Yeah, there are more than one moment, I'm sure, I'm sure, yes. Yeah, so very memorable is like the last day of the production of the film adaptation of the play, where we had to film one scene, which was very dependable regarding the light situation from outside. And then it was problematic, then I had to go to school at the same time, and then I was in conflict, which actually happened all the time. Okay, what am I going to do now? Am I going to finish this or am I going to go to school? He was in such a rush and he had to hurry so much regarding the light situation that he can take the scene, but at the same time he had to go to the restroom so badly. And actually this kind of struggle, well, what do I do? Do I take the scene? Can I like, yeah, look at my basic needs and go to the restroom or not? Like this struggle was really like picturing the whole struggle, which is shown in the work. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, maybe not that interesting. No, I think it speaks to that kind of internal, external, that, you know, it's like, if when you're in other live shows, you know, you, something might happen in this, in the theater, that, you know, you have to, do I respond to that? Do I not? Do I, you know, and so I think it's a real human side of the process, which is very important. Also, I understand that, I mean, I've found new ways to substance, to, so to speak, this also, to be Roma in the society. How should I, so to speak, pack it in? How should I deal with it? That was so an, so an, so an, an important point in my life. Well, the whole production was like a changing point. Yeah, it's understood. Changing point, yeah. A converging point, because I, thank you. And yeah, influence or also is still influencing his further steps, his further works, especially because he kind of understood that there are different ways. Also, yeah, for him, because he got like, deeper to the substance of being Roma in this society. And it has opened up really like new ways of not only on the artistic level, but also on the personal level. Yes. And I think that really speaks to, again, that kind of internal, external process that you said you've been going through, which is also, it makes sense earlier, you said, you're not an actor, you don't see yourself only as an actor, but as a theater maker in something that you're living and doing. And so I can understand that, absolutely. And so is there something that you want the audience or the people watching it to know about the production? Is there something, maybe a message or something specific you want them to know? Don't think or don't think too much. Just let it happen to you. And just, yeah, let it happen to you and then we'll see what happens with you. Yes. And is that linked then to the title of I can see you? Is that kind of a play of what you're kind of hoping to do here with the work? I can see you. Can you tell me a little bit about the title, where that came from, how that emerged? It's like it has like two sides, like actually a symbol, which we can interpret in different ways. This title I can see you is like, if someone says to him or herself, well, yeah, I can see me, I see me. On the other hand, it also refers to really, I see the other person. Well, like for me, I'm not from the Romani culture and community, I'm from Switzerland. For me, it was also very eye-opening production because then I kind of, for me, realized that like Nebuchadnezzar and just like his being a Romani culture and Romani people are like mistreated as a protection surface given from the outside and like all other people protect something and their expectation to these people. So there's this kind of mistreatment. It's very, yeah, scary for me to see how society works and that also refers to me for to the title. Yes, I can see you are, I just tell that I see you, but I see you in the way I am with my expectations, what you would have to fulfill or how you have to be. Sure, sure. This is the project. So the aroma of most of the time is used as a protection surface. That's what nobody asks themselves. Is that really the case now, but you know, that's the way it is. I'm just projecting what I feel, what I think, what I live on. Something that is a little bit mystical, something that is not explainable in the two words. Yeah, so we also told that he also has the feeling or sees that Roma are mistreated as a protection surface by other people, by other people's expectations, by other people's needs and fears. And then, what could you tell? I've lost one second. Yeah, and they also like project all their needs and dreams about something like exotic. Yeah, romanticized, yes, so they categorize, yeah, at home. Yeah, that's why I also took the texts from Kafka, because he does it, so he tries to thematize it. So that's one specific reason why he's working with Kafka's texts, because Kafka also tries to analyze it on his way, like this protection problem. Yes, and this was a question or a reflection I was going to maybe ask and share, is that I'm not surprised that you are looking or using Kafka's work, because they're kind of big philosophical questions that are presented in a lot of his work, but also there's also like an existential crisis that happens, and that's something that I picked up on a bit with the work, and this idea of I can see you, well, who's looking at who, and there's so many ways that you can play with that, whether we all want to be seen on some level, but also there's a layer of protection. I don't want everyone to see the deep sides of me, not everyone is worth that. And so there's a kind of real kind of layering there that is I think quite sophisticated and profound in many ways, and particularly with the Roma, as you said, the Roma are often either criminalized, fetishized, or romanticized, and there's a lack of seeing what's in front of you, which is a human. Rome means human, and that's forgotten, I think, a lot of the times. And I think, Rebecca, if you could maybe talk a little bit about your experience as a dramaturg for the work, how you supported this process of seeing, of being part of the production of it, I think it'd be really interesting to hear your experience. Well, yeah, that's a tough one. Experience, first of all, it was very fulfilling, very interesting, because I'm actually still studying German language and literature, sciences, and philosophy. So I have like, I've come from this section more or less. Okay, yes. So we actually made a really, really good team, and it was very eye-opening for me, sometimes very hard to realize with what's substantial and existential challenges. Nebuchadne and his brother and his family and his community is confronted with, it was very hard sometimes and still is for me, because I have a totally different background, but to, yeah, concentrate on the art and to produce something and to find a voice and to discover what we all as a team want to tell or show. But it's, I mean, every, yeah, the audience can understand it, how they want, how they feel, how they are prepared for something like this. So, but yeah, to concentrate, to find a voice, to find pictures we want to show, and not only on stage, but especially also in film, it was very interesting to make this adaptation, which is stylistically very, very different. Sure, sure. And to see like the message is more or less the same, but it differs also because you can now can understand it even, yeah, more differently and so on. So this whole journey, which is still going on is, yes, making me also a little bit more mature, bringing closer to life to what's important and what we need to count on. It's also let me personally question my values, the values of my background and my life principles and so on and so on. I want to say something about it. No, no. I think that's why it's important in theater not only to have Roma in the team, because sometimes you also fall into your own soup. Yeah, so he just added that it's very important for him that not only Romani people are in the team, so that we can, like, yeah, focus all that we are a good team and include more or less, yeah, everybody. So, and it's actually a central role. Yeah, well, that prevents you from having your own soup. Yeah, because our personal and artistic goal is that we can develop ourselves, but not get stuck in our, yeah, personal burrow, like in a vicious circle, because we have that from outside and sometimes from inside. Yeah, and that's the interaction and actually what the others can understand, or what it is, because for me and and so when I show a scene for Roma people, they all know what it is, but when I show a scene, the same scene for not Roma, they have no idea what it is, they don't understand. Then they build something up, what it is not, what it doesn't mean. Yeah. So it's very important that we have, like, an included reflection and interaction in the team so we don't, like, yeah, have the risk, as we were talking before, that we make yeah, like this different kind of projections, like if he goes into a certain style, then Romani people will understand it like this, other people would understand it like this, and then we would be, again, in this categorizing pattern, would like to, yeah, work ourselves out. Well, our goal is that it is understandable for everybody in its own way, but also, yeah, on a deeper level. Yes. And we started the conversation, again, with that kind of cycle of internal, external, reflecting, questioning, doing, being, and that that's something ongoing for you, but also it seems like also for the team, that you ask your modeling what you want others to also do. And I earlier said that Rom just means human and person, and I think it's a lovely way to end the, you know, reflecting on that point of, you know, you've created something titled, I can see you, but really, it feels like you want people to just see the human, the Rom that we all are, and not the labels, and through that, then we can see the stories and people's lived experiences, neither better nor worse, they're just different, and it feels like that's a really powerful message that you do with the work and that you and the team have done with the live show, but also with the film. So, you know, congratulations on also being so, so vulnerable because that's very hard, you know, and especially as we're kind of coming out of this very, you know, Rebecca, you said, it made you kind of reflect on your values on what's important. And after a pandemic, you know, it seems like some people have forgotten that and some people have really kind of evaluated and said, okay, what's important? And, you know, this work is sounds like it's also asking these very important questions. Without saying having any answers, it's just saying, you know, just be and join this process of in out reflection, reflecting. Yes, thank you so much for sitting down with us. I can see you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Rosa was a really pleasure. Thank you very much. And yes, all the best. Thank you.