 Well, first of all, thank you for the opportunity to speak to all of you today and thank you to Sarah's People at the transition or justice groups. This is my first trip to South Korea. So I familiar with this place as well Patrick I actually don't like math so I will bring you a different perspective. I don't like math because I'm not good at math First of all, I'd like to give you some background why I decided to come to this work You know, I left Cambodia as a refugees I survived the killing fear making you late in America, but I decided to return to do this work for a very very personal reason So the story perhaps would allow you to understand why I'm here and what I'm doing in Cambodia in In regard to the justice issues and memories and the tribe, you know that perhaps you have heard already In It took the Khmer rule the communists actually exist in Cambodia's in 1945 a long long time ago but it became active in 1975 and they took over the countries and In less than four years about two million people have died of starvation or forced laborers of Executions disease and so forth So the country is very broken is so broken in Cambodia from the king down to a farmer in the village Always has someone lost to the communist regime, which we call the Khmer Rouge So the entire country were completely broken's Imagine that you you you took a glass and throw on the floor and it's broken And that's Cambodia But yet, you know Cambodia come from the most beautiful and ancient and civilized asian in Southeast Asia so I'm sort of Wondered whether that such a broken society can be restored can be returned to the glorious and can move by turning You know being a survivor to educator by turning atrocity to the beauty Whether that Cambodian can do that. I Tell you a personal story why I have a sister's at age of 24 she's a typist and during the Communist movement we were all evacuated by the train to different part of the country My sister married to young professor Have three kids so we always separated At one point you know in during the communist regime perhaps similar to North Korea You know usually shortage of food salvation is topless in the country So people stealing people do think that perhaps not supposed to be doing but salvation would push you to do Certain thing that you should not have done so my brother-in-law actually stole a cucumber from a From the commune's kitchen, you know during the communist you eat collectively you don't eat separately So he was arrested because he stole a rotten cucumber During the communist movement when you commit such a crime, you know those considered a crime then you Would be put on trial publicly among the villager so he was he was brought into the middle of the village and hundreds of people were watching him beating up So he was beat up severely and he died at night I think he died because he was so upset that that he being tortured in front of the public. So he died In the communist movement when you kill someone that perceived as an enemy of the state They also would also eliminate those who are connected to someone that will perceive A judge as enemy of the state. So they come after my sister. So they the prison guard came home and Asked my sister whether she eat the rotten cucumber because he couldn't find it They want to find the evidence if want to us to return the rotten cucumber to the commune's kitchen and My sister denied of eating it. So what they did they took my sister to a nearby Hospital and they cut her stomach open So she died So when my sister died they brought both my brother-in-law's and my sister and buried them right behind a local clinic half buried So the whole village alerts all of us myself and also my niece who back then the oldest one was six years old So she ran from the unit and look for the grave site of her parent, you know I know where which one is weak because the body was swollen and she was a six years old kid you know, so then we all went back home and Pretend that nothing happened and move on with the lie that night My three other nephew was crying and one also died because no breast-fitting because he was too young to live and the second one also Exhaust die of exhaustion because no one around you're not supposed to look after even your own family member So the three little kids were left in Little hut and to die one week after and then the oldest one survived So we will concern my mother's myself were concerned that she would also have passed away if we we have to do something So what we did? We lied to her she was six years old kid. We said that you know Actually none of your parents are dead yet. They all went to heaven and it would return and pick you up later So you should go to sleep You know and usually in the commemory time you pretend you're eating something to put you to sleep So you pretend eating rice you pretend you're getting chicken and you go to sleep That's what I told my niece was six years old. So she stopped crying and she went to sleep and 40 years later, you know during after the commemory's collab my niece and up Moving to America. She's now married and have three children My niece sort of question me said what am I doing? Will the tribunal that I so advocate would bring back her parent? She pointed out to the Holocaust. She pointed out to a mania that genocide took place a hundred years ago For a century this crime keep happening. What was the point that I'm working so hard to bring only few perpetrators on trial So there's no point. There's no way that money would even support my own work for the justice of her own sister her own parent and She refused to return to Cambodia every time during the Christmas time when Her kid asking for the grandparent and she would ask the kid to email me in Cambodia And I you know, I sort of try to find way to answer differently I don't want to lie to her kid the same way I lied to her 40 years ago again so she never returned and one of her Daughter actually coming to visit me for the first time since she was born in the state next month But my niece never returned. I never believe in any process of justice at all My my effort in the last 30 years to my niece is nothing. It's useless. It's meaningless And then you know my mother's who now is 89 years old She lost not just only my sister also her husband Parents Parent-in-law's all her brother sister also were executed by the Communist regime. She's actually alone so at one point I Was interviewed by Christie and one poor from CNN and she's interested to speak to my mother's and I said, you know, please don't bother her my mother is a peasant girl cannot read and write but you know what she was everything to all of us and Christie and one poor asked my mother and put me outside the room of the interview and I listened to the conversation through the head Headset she asked my mother Are you proud of your son or what he's been doing for Cambodia? You know to bring about a process of justice to educate a young population for the entire country What are you proud of him and my mother said? I'm very happy that he's safe. He has food to eat So she tried to lead my mother to say that you know, I'm very proud of my son You know, he do justice for the whole world, you know things like that But as a mother, you know in the end of the day, it's all she want to see that you're being safe and have a good life So and then I asked my mother because during that time after they killed my sister I also was tortured and put in prison because I also still pick Mushroom from the right field and I also got arrested as well to feed one my of my pregnant sister So I was arrested at the age of 14 put in prison with all the adult and tortures every day there So I I actually went back and found all those perpetrators 20 years later. So I asked my mother What do you think of the oldest process now to bring about justice for our family and My mother said I she actually forgave those perpetrators a long long time I didn't even realize that until I talked to her 25 years ago So for my mother a tribunal is nothing because she's so strongly Buddhist believe and She think that anyone who did harm to her would be punished in the next life and Therefore, there's no point to get even now and what was the point to get even now is nothing But you know a horrible history and returning to all of us But I disagree with my own mother and my niece So you can see a family that that are so broken, you know, these three are disagreeing how justice is being done for my sister And I have the right to do that because she's my sister and my niece She has the right to disagree because it's her own mothers and My mother has her own term that how justice should be done for her own daughter So we all disagree in the same family for 35 years. So I went separate road I went out collect all these information and support the process for tribunal and try to all do all all this thing that you Perhaps you have heard of it But in case of my mother and my niece, it's no different You see that how broken Cambodian is all about so that become my motivation I want to do something that my mother would be proud of me That my niece would be proud of me what I have done to the family So I came to this work purely out of personal reason Not as a researcher or people who care about the world or people care about humanity purely out of revenge So I came to this work for purely personal reason So it's have the impact over how I documented and how I perform the work because it's rather personal What I did when I first came to conduct this research 25 years ago I decided to went back to a village where I was torture But this time I returned as Yook Chang back then it was a 14 years old skinny boy You know will suffer will starve will force to work like everybody else So what I did I went and look for the prison guard who arrested me and tortured me and put me in prison So I found all of them and we conduct the interview in our interview process. It's very important I will explain more how the methodology we use in conducting the interview So I'm not supposed to even involve because I'm holding the primaries ever then so therefore I'm sitting there listening to all the interview conducted by my staff and the five perpetrator. I was extremely upset Because the fire was sourcing see an honor to my staff You know, I should have been happy that we find the truth. This is what we're looking for Before we find information that would support the process of prosecution at the tribe You know, but instead it was very upset and I actually want them to lie to my staff So that I can pick on them immediately on on the spot But in fact this fine man if you see him today, he's just a poor skinny farmer living with a poor Couple skinny buffalo under poverty that you may have heard today in Cambodia so after the interview I asked I cut off the The tape recording and I came in and asked a question to the fire guy the five prison guard five former prison guard And I said you do you know me? He said yes I know you you chunk from this he came but I say no before long long time ago. Have you ever met? They said no, I was confused because I forgot to realize that it was just a 14 years old boy 25 years But I keep insisting that they remember me and then I Said I told them I live here. I said no it's impossible you from the city I said no I live here before during the communist regime I live in this village actually and they don't Recall, you know who I was then Then I start to tell him a story that you remember Back then there's a boy that was arrested and tortured among all the villagers and his mother was there and also fell to protect him He tried and put in prison of a civil servant man You remember that story and suddenly everybody remember the story the whole five former prison guard remember the story Yeah, we remember that boy, you know, we were the one who were who doing this, you know, because he's he's still Mushroom, you know, he did all these bad things So we must do it because it was an order from the superior to To clean the society that any crime it was committed it must be in that order of prosecution So then I said the boy is me Imagine the room was silent The whole room was was silent. It's nobody talk and suddenly each of them Asking me whether I want to have lunch Someone went to pick a coconut drink and someone offered better. I want any gift or souvenir from the village In case of Cambodia culture of languages, that's apology You don't have to say it but those body languages is a act of apology and I didn't say anything, you know I I questioned myself. Maybe I grew out of this culture of apology Unless he asked unless he remembered me, but since they don't remember me So there's no forgiveness coming out from my mouth. I never say I forgive you and they never Ask for apology, but we split we split I left the village and I never thought of them again ever again until today It just like in Cambodia, you know, there's a Mekong River and Tunisar and You have to meet but then you split So in case of reconciliation some in some cases you must be separated to be reconciled to be reconciled So there is the idea that I start the documentation center Cambodia I want to do this but to restore my family for reunification for reconciliation so that we can move So that this gram won't be repeated in my country or elsewhere So my approach rather than legal approach, but historical approach So I want to restore the entire broken Cambodia that were destructed by the Communist regime in less than four years To the whole country were destroyed But yet I realized that without prosecution Then it would be difficult to reconcile Because you don't have to be a lawyer to understand and somebody harm your family member when somebody Put you in prison without a fair trial. You have the instinct as human being like my mother She she's a poor peasant girl without any education, but she knows what is right. What is wrong? And that's what I'm here for. That's what I'm side with the people themselves So I want so mine to restore such a device society back to the glorious Country that we live through thousand years ago. So then I realized also without justice then Reconciliation would be impossible in the case of Cambodia. So I would get a tribunal. I want to have a tribunal Knowing that it won't be a perfect tribunal and any form of tribunal won't be bring a full justice To any victim around the world So I began the documentation center in such an approach Play put history in a special role to restore a broken society Using the legal prosecution as a mean as a foundation to move on So from day one as I start the documentation center Cambodia, I advocate a Process of justice so I fought for it, you know, and one of my job. I had to remind myself I'm not a prosecutors. I Don't have to be a prosecutor to collect all this information to bring out the truth so that a quote of law can judge Do who most responsible that commit crime against my brother-in-law my sister and my other and the entire population of Cambodia So I know myself I present myself in a position to assist any quote of law that would look into these cases and I'm here that I'm with them So I started documentation center in that kind of understanding and Therefore all of our material You know, I have the I have the ambition try to get something that people do not have the ability to access to it And that's why the DC came become so uniqueness because we the way I approach this because I want to understand the whole picture basically to Determine what happened in the past other than then going out looking for a piece of evidence support of prosecution So that's my approach and therefore the way I set up the database as the way I set up the forensics Evident the way I set up the interview the way I set up the Photographics or The film it it's very uniquely designed based on my personal visit to ICT Y to Bosnia to many places So I've been around I talked to this been to to about truth commission for example to Alex Bahrain I went to ICTJ so everyone Cambodian to be a new model to be a new solution to all the problems The to the past atrocity I don't want to use the same model because the same model has been using but cram has been repeating Cram does not end at a tribunal. It's continue And I want my work to be continued in parallel to the crime that also continue to harm all of us So that's a different approach. So So I define The center in three in two objective. I call it justice and memory. I want justice, but I also want people to remember Because to me if remember also it justice if you Knowing that you know a tribe, you know, I won't bring a full history to the population So I want people to continue to remember to learn Not to be Politicized but to learn scientifically to to have a dialogues, you know in the whole society So the documentation says started in 1995 actually as a Phil office of Yale University, so I'm a team from the states that compete with other to get a small grant from US State Department after the US Congress passed a genocide justice act in 1994 which signed to law by Bill Clinton Which requires State Department to establish of an office of investigation of the crime was committed By the Khmer rule in Cambodia So that how it started but two year later I localize it becoming a documentation center of Cambodia and has been operated in the last 20 years so through the course of work, I I Conclude that there's so many challenges. I have heard Patrick ball I have he give a very great answer, you know, even though I long I don't like mass I've been convinced today to love mass today So he convinced me but my approach is purely story People story that's important to me not number. I did also mapping project I also use statistic but for me as a secondary sources for me is people story human story everyone every person You know, it's it must be respected the right to life and no one have the right to harm even a person Because it's not belong to you. So my approach is storytelling So but through all his work. I find it Documentation actually is a political act Documentation not just go there and pick a piece of paper Because you have to question why you're doing this for whom and that become political in Case of Cambodia in the last century year, you know, seeing the French colonization, you know, we have friends controller for 98 years. We have a Vietnam war. We have Bombardment we have genocide. We have Vietnam invasion. We have to international international intervention only in 1998 that Cambodia feel as a country Some may think that the Khmeru last only for four years But in fact, we've been through a century of a violent in Cambodia a century of violence Cindy Uncle was abandoned in 19th century But that's Cambodia case very complex But then I decided to focus on the Khmer why because that the most great human right violation in human history So when you do documentation You can't do everything because as you always can find something that also violates human right even before or even today So you have to find a very logical Explanation why you doing this and for whom and why and therefore become political So by doing this you cannot avoid being political yourself And you know people say politicians are bad people but you need good politician and you cannot avoid being Political so I'm being very political myself. So I took a position and I work with anybody I work with With America with Swedish with the Dutch with Vietnam with live with China with no I work with everybody At the same time also I talked to everyone you know victim and perpetrator everybody So that's my approach to engage to make a different rather than stay opposition and make a different So that's a different approach, but have it work in Cambodian contact, but this is what I did So I I summarize in three challenges One is political challenge because when you do any documentation Then you will perhaps send a signal to the country who support that regime in some way Directly or indirectly in case of North Korea. They have their own friend too you know so anyone who support North Korean may not perhaps support your initiative and You cannot blame them because it's relevant and therefore You have to find someone to support you and you cannot please everybody and you know politically at you have to Chat be challenge, you know in case of Cambodia I mean I also face a lot of challenging because when I started to do documentation in Cambodia people point to America who bombed Cambodia and They look at this as a you US mess so clean it up So all European don't come near at all All European country never go near the documentation of genocide in Cambodia at even Germany Even Germany never come near at all, you know, you might imagine that German would came first because of their own history Never came here. I can understand Japan who doesn't want to come near to this case because they own War crime in their own home country, but Germany or other European Didn't come near at all. So I was solo it was you know isolated politically So so you have us the only one because they put its own justice act so that a Requirement by the Congress for the State Department to implement a piece of law. So that's how it started So, you know, you you would face this and secondly also you would face network. I Agree with Patrick that you want everyone to do documentation, you know, even I work in Iraq a little bit in 2004 myself But you know, it's it's everyone have their own Their own agenda their own objective in terms of data is interested to have you one doing this But to create a network support such a Such a political issue is difficult and you have to be selective Someone may disagree with you someone may agree with you So you don't have to worry if there's some opposition actually when you do strong make you stronger In case of Cambodia people cannot link between the current human right violation or corruption or land grabbing to the Khmeru violation They think that those are two separate issue But any post-conflict society just interconnected between the two You cannot talk about the current human right violation without looking at the past abuse that took place Before a post regime that came to exist But usually among the network among the NGO that's a split how to look at how to define what is human right violation and Then that has been a problem. So any documentation about past abuse It's irrelevant to the contemporary human right violation and you must find the link and that is the tricky part for any NGO doing documentation on this topic So that is what this very important and secondly also when you start to doing this, you know, you you Sometimes in my case, I'm a bit arrogant. I do my way You don't join it then you are So sometimes you have to be like taking the lead, you know Because you don't have time to explain you have to think about your limitation your resources Sometimes you do your best, you know, as long as you're sincere you're honest to your objective I think just do it because if you try to engage Would take a long long time So you might make some mistake, but that's what you would learn and if you know you're making mistakes You're doing it. It's okay, too You know, I quote one of the famous American novelist William Faulkner He said that the past never been a past. We always is always with us today So, you know, I don't look at this as a past crime as 60 years ago It's just like current because it's just a link to it. So my recommendation when come to network you have to move and You have to be selective just like you pick someone to marry with you know, you have to select be selected You can't marry to everybody so you pick someone and you think it can be a partner and just move and do it and They might do are the are the different way and that's okay, too So at the end you will meet and you can support a process that will have you share and comment for justice The last thing is resources, you know, Patrick have made a very clear presentation You're very expensive to have a proper technology Data, you know, very expensive and it's ready would be very difficult to get a perfect data And very expensive and usually don't know don't find something that you don't see the impact immediately You know to find the the microfilm digitization database boring But the most expensive one resources very expensive and because you don't have good political net Because you're not if you're not political if you're not selective you also don't have the resource So you must be political you must be selective then you have the resource So that's sort of my experience in terms of challenging that that that I can never avoid it keep repeating all the time keep repeating why Because genocide because crime again humanity is a political act. It will always happen in the next century Because it commit by people with by the state. So I think that my approach you know for example at the tribunals with genocide education in the placement of the truth commission with the Permanence research on genocide and mass atrocity in South Asia Those are actually designed specifically to making sure that Cambodia return to the glory they're making sure that we all can move on and Provide a certain foundation so that we can put all these small broken pieces together in some way and That is the reality that it can never be the same but make all your effort and move Rather than living with it. So that is Cambodian contact. That's how I start my documentation it's how I approach it and Perhaps, you know, that's some pursuit of success Some pursuit are some sort of failure, but at least a tribunal at least a process itself have Push the entire country to deal with the past in the eye of the international community And that for me does the greatest effort that I have made so far for my mother. Thank you