 So we're going to go to the panel now and hopefully my co-organizer, which is not Renzo this time, but it's going to be Jordan is going to join me. Hey, there we go. And so obviously we need our panelists as well. So hopefully Ella is around and Artem is around. Hello. Hey, I also have another developer that will help Vladimir. Oh, he's there. There we go. Hello, Vlad and Artem. All right, I will go in with this icebreaker question for Artem. It's been super great to hear you doing awesome work to try and spread the joy of closure across so many different domains. Personally, who do you think has been the greatest influence to you as far as sparking your interest in lists and sparking your interest in closure? Was there a talk or a person or a friend that kind of inspired you? I think that's the guy from one of Russian forums, Linux or Guru, and he was, you know, kind of advocate of Lisp. And he was a bit toxic guy because he was against this C++ developers and all other developers, but it was fun to read. And I was really encouraged by him to learn the functional programming in general and Lisp's common Lisp, elisp, and then closure. Yeah, and how long ago was that? It was 2008, I think. It's 13 years ago. Wow, cool. I think we're still having, oh, Ella, is she there? Looks like she's there. Would you like to ask another question to Artem while we wait? Okay, sure. So recently, kind of big news, the Clojurean Slack has been gifted a sponsorship for a pro membership. You speak a little bit about points of contact and accessibility into the community. Do you see this pro membership for the Slack Clojureans being of any influence? Good, bad. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that since you've clearly thought about it a lot. Can you elaborate a bit about this pro membership because I'm not familiar with it? Well, the Clojurean Slack channel has, we were on the free tier previously and it caused a lot of issues because the chats weren't saved and you couldn't do video. I see, I see, yeah. And it just limited and so it pushed a lot of people to Zulip, it kind of divided the community. And you speak how we're not really on stack overflow and what a problem that is. I see, I see it. Personally, I don't think this will be, this will increase the ease of adoption of Clojure for newcomers because it's still the streaming information, this, this chat, yeah, they can be accessible by searching for some specific items but they're still hard to navigate. And that's why for newcomers, I don't think it will change anything from my point of view. Do you think there is anything we could do to help get that help connect them with that information? Yeah, as I said in my talk, I think the most important here is, you know, to structure the streams of information and to keep them in some place that can be accessible. This shouldn't be just a stream of messages where you need to navigate and search for something and you need to find specific libraries to find the context of discussion, but maybe adds more structure in different perspectives like Wikipedia or something like this. I think this can help for newcomers to navigate and make a system and the whole information. Sure, sure. Let's do a check in on John and Ella. Can you hear me now? Yes, excellent. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. We're really glad to have you here. We've got quite a few questions here. I think you've kind of asked some, you've answered some of the questions initially that we had in your presentation, but let's just quickly recap them. So like those questions around who's the intended users for Bloger? Is it kind of suitable for education kind of thing? And also there's a query about whether you've kind of got experience in education and where that kind of, because it's a really, it seems like a really good tool for that. So just wondering where the kind of inspiration for that came from. Yeah, so I personally don't have much experience in education, but I am very much hopeful that Bloger can be used as an educational tool. So in addition to being used by beginners as an educational tool, I also think that Bloger will be useful for people like me who really want to have some convenient way to program on their phone. You know, I'd often find myself having like an idea for like a generative art piece or something, and you know, being away from my computer and wishing that I could just like pull out my phone and step something out real quick. So I think that hopefully Bloger as it matures will become a pretty powerful way to program from the mobile device. Yeah, I think that would be great. So I've used replete and it's a really nice mobile app. But then I have to realize I have to then use a keyboard on my mobile device and it kind of kills the experience. I kind of wired up a physical keyboard just so I could use it and then I think, well, I may as well just be on my computer. But yeah, that sounds like it's a lot of promise as well. Was was closure script something that was new to you did you learn closure by using closure and develop closure or did you already can know closure script. I was familiar with closure before I before I started making closure. And I just started kind of learning about lists when the idea of of something like closure came to me at the same time I was learning closure script and it seemed like a perfect kind of match for the idea that I had. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. Should we go back to Jordan. Right. So the, the GitHub link has been posted in the relevant channel, but I just want to reiterate that Hubert asked that he'd love to know where the best place to go with the best person to talk to is. So I'd like to point the audience members. If you'd like to contribute to that, go ahead and check out the links in the GitHub, or you can email Artem. And then I'm going to turn it over to to Renzo here who has some better context to ask some of these questions. I just wanted to ask about like a couple of tools that you already have in the community and understand if there is a comparison to do maybe something that you want to grab inspiration from. And what I was thinking of is the, the Jack's radar. I don't know if you heard of that. Yeah, sure. It's kind of a useful tool as the original ThoughtWorks radar was more general spectrum of technologies and the closure toolbox, which I'm not sure if it's you know up to date anymore so you know that might be a problem right there already. So I was thinking how this kind of tools integrate and your vision. I was a big fan of closure toolbox. When I used to be a closure developer but it's easy to notice that some of libraries is outdated there is a lot of libraries that's not actively maintained on the closure toolbox and it has around 900 libraries compared to 17,000 libraries that we found on GitHub so ecosystem is much, you know, larger, I think, and the Jack's radar is a great example of created content. So, I can see, you know, the place of these tools is an integration so we can gather all raw information like discussions like new libraries on a GitHub like announces and this raw information can be used later for created some main lists or adding some, you know, information on top of this and create some extra value so not to spend time on searching the ecosystem and gather all this in one place and use it basically as a content creation platform so content will be gathered by one subsystem and everyone else can add some editorial content on top of this. So, that's the vision kind of. Thank you. So, we've been using pretty much the closure toolbox site, and also searching for GitHub URLs, which is basically the site. Information about libraries, not only closure ones. So, to be honest, the closure toolbox, personally for me seems like the huge database with the raw data as Artem said, so the main goal I believe for the closure garden is two things basically. The first one is collect information from different sources including closure toolbox, GitHub URLs, and other sources and provide the second goal is to provide the ability and the API UI to increase the levels of search requests for that library. For example, if we don't want the library name in particular, we can search this library by text, by the drama scouts, by licenses at least. So, this, as Artem said, provides us more information, more like meta information of libraries, and this may make customers, users. This facilitates choosing between libraries because as this person says there are more than one library which solves one problem. Thank you for having me. Alrighty, let's have another question for Ella. So, yeah, the question about using Vlosia, when you're debugging issues in Vlosia, the prime algorithm you fixed was quite quick and simple. But I can imagine that a lot of problems are quite hard to spot. Is there any way to kind of like to see the errors or eval the evaluation exceptions. So, like I mentioned in the talk, that's one big weakness of Vlosia right now. There's not really any way to kind of see the details of an error. It'll kind of give you like a little X in the corner, you know, if something goes wrong. But that's not very much, you know, that's not very much detail. And so that's something that I'm planning to improve on in Vlosia, but right now that it doesn't really have any good debugging tools or way to give you information about errors that occur during runtime. Okay, so something to look forward to. Excellent. Thank you very much. Back to Jordan. Back to Renzo. Oh, yes. Okay, yeah, while we were waiting for more questions for Arten, but I added a couple myself. So the next question is trying to, you know, understand a little bit more about fresh code and your project. So it sounds like you are mainly a consultancy, but I just want to double check on that with you. And do you have specific ideas on developing your own products and is this topic and the talk kind of heading in that direction? Yeah, we're a consultancy company, and we are doing software development. So basically, like, team augmentation. We had an idea, a lot of ideas of building our own products. And as I said in talk, we decided just to go with the community to find out what is really painful. And we figured out that there is no such, you know, maybe we haven't found it. Maybe it exists, but we haven't found it. Some product idea that can help the community because everyone told about marketing and about popularity of a closure. And that's why our product is a bit more in other direction. This closure garden. Alrighty. Okay, thanks. Let's see. Another question for Ella. I've got one here. Yeah, so King was saying that drag and drop was not that ergonomic for them. So wondering if there was keyboard shortcuts. Is that something that's in the road map as I as we call it. Would that be enable somebody to kind of interact differently or is it or is the focus mostly on getting getting the mobile side of things working. So my focus so far has mainly been on kind of developing this in like a cross platform way. So I'm trying to develop it in such a way that, you know, it'll be just as usable with like a touchscreen where you don't have the opportunity for keyboard shortcuts. But in the future, you know, there's no reason to not have keyboard shortcuts for the desktop version. And so I'm definitely planning on, you know, once I have some other things on the road map out of the way. I think keyboard shortcuts version. Oh yeah, so there's questions about trying to understand what the technical stack was what did you actually use to put closure together, Ella. And yeah, and any kind of things you want to share about the actual workflow to develop closure will be quite interesting too. Okay. So closure is built primarily with pixie JS, which is a JavaScript graphics library. I also mentioned that, you know, it uses quill for quill mode, but for the default, you know, canvas that the closure is drawn on that's using pixie JS. Quill is great, but pixie is kind of more fully featured more, you know, fine tuned for like production quality apps whereas quill is more of like kind of a rapid prototyping generative art type of library. So I'm using shadow CLJS for for development, which is really convenient. And other than that, it's just kind of a straightforward closer script and pixie JS app. Great, thank you. All right, we have one more question here for our time. Our time, can you can you speak now sorry about that. Yeah, yeah. Okay, awesome. Edward said that it occurs to him that while having an internal radar for closure projects, it would be useful in curating content. And there should be a focus on showing up on radar tracks of other communities and domains. He was wondering if Artem had anything to say about the current approach in the closure data science community of a more domain driven approach to try and bring more people into the community by applying the product development tool set that you just described. And how closure can provide better and more productive tools than currently exists in domains where closure isn't typically used. There's a lot in that question. Yeah, that's a lot. First of all about internal radar of a community. So right now it exists in a different perspective so there is a slack announcement mainly lists closure toolbox. Jax trader, and a lot of sources of information so and the biggest issue from my point of view is that they're not updating automatically. So that's a manual job and manual work of gathering all together and putting in place. And regarding the data science I know there is a lot of efforts that was put some of some guys in the community into this area the for popularization data science and closure in this domain. But I would say that I would talk to the end users of this platform so that to the real data scientists. And we need to understand the transition costs from the old solution like Python and all infrastructure that already exists to closure and we need to understand the pain points and if it's possible to find this pain points. So there is no way to transfer them from the Python because everybody's using. There's a lot of tutorials and everything and everything. And that's why domain driven domain specific is interesting but need to go deeper and talk to end users of these solutions. Yeah, that was great. I think we have another question for Ella then. Yeah, I'm quite curious about this myself as well so what kind of inspired you to create the particular UI design was any kind of prior art that you kind of did that or was it mainly just kind of evolving through your own experimentation. I mean it feels like a very intuitive design was this just like really easy and obvious or did it take lots of iterations to do. Yeah, well, well, like you said like I think once you once you have that core idea of representing like lists of circles with smaller circles inside the rest of lozier just kind of like writes itself, you know, that's kind of the core idea of lozier. I think what the primary thing that inspired me was actually these representations of list programs that were in on John Kosa's book about genetic programming, which kind of shows you very explicitly the kind of tree structure of, of list programs, you know, with kind of like a vision in your outermost function, and, you know, kind of branches down for the arguments to that function. And seeing those diagrams really kind of like made me realize how simple and elegant list programs are, and how amenable they are to two different kinds of like, you know, visual representations, because of the kind of very simple structure that lists and pose on their programs. So I think that was probably one of the main motivations and coming up with the visual style that lozier uses. And it's just kind of feels like just nice little churches that just kind of just seem to kind of make sense. It's, it's really great. Thank you. Okay, we have holy jack on discord who asked our time, something like product hunt for closure lives. I think that was a add on to his previous answer. Would you like to elaborate on that Artem. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, it's very similar. Okay, you know, I'll pick one more question in here. We have a raise hand, Jordan Sebastian would like to ask a question live. Well, Sebastian take it away. Yes question for you. Thank you very much. Yes I thought that was a fantastic talk Ella, and I would be interested to know if you've considered adding support for other lists, as they all share that tree based structure. Could we do scheme in the web browser with that kind of interface. Absolutely yeah I mean the interface that closure uses. There's a couple things about it that are sort of specific to closure, you know the the different, you know, octagons for for vectors and whatnot, but the basic idea could be applied to absolutely any less. And in fact, when I was first kind of developing the initial prototype for closure, almost fell into kind of the trap that Artem mentioned earlier, I've just sort of building everything from scratch, I almost went with just sort of designing my own kind of like visual lists. But I kind of snapped out of it and realized this is going to be way more useful if it's tied to an existing ecosystem. So I chose closure scripts, but the idea of closure could be applied to any other list, and I encourage other people to make ports to whatever other lists they prefer if they want to. Thank you that's brilliant. Thank you Sebastian that was a good question. I think we've got another question for. For our time so ray 1729 as as Artem, how are you dealing with changes and popularity of libraries over time. For example, a GitHub project might have lots of stars but no recent usage. Now we haven't thought about we've thought about this problem but we don't deal with it. I think kind of temporal database will solve this so we can track all the changes and make some Make some insights from this data. For now, there is no not good question. Yeah, and I can have that as we use metabase which is pretty fine in terms of user license visualizing data and working with it. So, there are lots of questions which might be in place for different users. For example, one user can ask if this library is eligible for him. Other user might use his or her own ranks a library so that's why actually we use metabase in order to provide the experience of asking questions directly to the database. So that means that we can execute any query in order to extract the most accurate library for each specific user. So as per now, this question is open for sure, but the current state of the project actually allows users to ask such questions. In future, I believe there would be thoughts for like preparing the questions like that and providing some dashboards as answers to that questions. There is a lot of work to do. Thank you. Thank you for that response. I'm not sure if we have time to sneak in. Yeah, we've got another little I think there was also a quick question for our time about is there a website for discussing LibRank? I don't know if there's a quick answer for that. No, it will be available on GitHub and a public project roadmap. So I will add the link to the discord so feel free to watch the rep and contribute. Excellent stuff. Thank you very much. Yeah, so there's somebody was curious about the one final question just before I asked that somebody was curious about the book that you mentioned. I wondered if you could share the link with us either in the Slack in the discord or the Zoom chat. That would be great. Yeah, I'll find a link to that. That's some genetic programming by John Koza, but I'll find a link and share it in the discord channel. And kind of my final question really is you obviously have a flair for creating these engaging creative projects. Have you any thoughts on what you're going to do next or are you kind of mainly focusing on finishing off Blozier? Yeah, I'm planning to focus on Blozier for a while. I've got a couple of other projects ongoing, but nothing to speak about publicly at this time. But yeah, I really want to focus on Blozier and polish it up and get it into like a great like kind of web based cross platform tool for programming and closure scripts and for like making generative art using Quill mode. That sounds wonderful. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now, yes, so thank you everybody for their questions as well. It kept the speakers on their toes. That was great. So we're off into a break another 30 minute break. So we'll be back just before four o'clock. Actually, I won't be back, but Jordan will be more than capable of taking over and keeping you all motivated with all the speakers. So we shall see you back then. And in the meantime, we'll play some more generative art again in silence so you can take a nice break to think about the things that we've been covering today. Thank you everybody.