 Hello and welcome to Pookey Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, how can we build bridges between home and school for children with additional needs? And I'm in conversation with Ginny Bootman. Hi everyone, my name is Ginny Bootman. I'm a Spook-Shonnie's coordinator of two primary schools in Northamptonshire. I have been the head teacher, I've been the senior leader. The class teacher, the PE coordinator, I've been all of those things. I love to talk about the role which empathy plays within the classroom and the school context. And I also write about it as well. I'm on Twitter at SenkoGirl and you can also find me at GinnyBootman.com. Perfect. And our episode question today is, how can we build bridges between home and school for children with additional needs? So if you wouldn't mind just making a start on that massive question. I think there has to be in many ways a consciousness about this. I think we as teachers and as special needs coordinators can inadvertently build bridges. I mean, sorry, not build bridges. We need to consciously build bridges. We can break the bridges down. So we have to think about ways that we can make connections with parents and carers and those who are involved with the children. So one of the ways that I found out which really, really surprised me and was something I hadn't been doing. And when it came to my attention, I changed my practice immediately. And I call it, call me by my name. Just call me by my name. In fact, when we're in a meeting with parents, let's ask them how they want to be addressed. So I introduce myself. I say, I'm Ginny Bootman. You can call me Ginny. And for any Senko's out there, you decide how you want to be addressed, how you feel most comfortable. And in the same way, the people at the meeting, then tell us how they want to be addressed. I cannot believe the difference that makes. I have spoken to parents and parents say when they are called mum, dad, grandma, granddad, auntie, they feel so small. They actually don't feel as valued. And there becomes this, and I talk about a lot, this hierarchy, a perceived hierarchy. So by us asking them how they want to be called, we actually are levelling everything out. And I'm very much for, I call it flattening the hierarchy. The parents are the experts. And we all need to work together to make sure that we can get the best for our children. So that's my first top tip that's come from parents and Pookie, it comes from parents. Parents constantly tell me ways that we can improve those links between home and school. So that's kind of my first top tip. Everyone is about meetings. Have you ever been given the time that you have to go to a meeting at school? And you are the 1045. And you're like, right, that's at least my whole morning wiped out, if not my whole day. And actually it might be parents are working, it might be there are other siblings at home, it might be that there may be a younger sibling and they have a nap time, all of these things. But once again, we have to consciously think about it. So what I aim to do, and I am able to do this because I'm purely a senco of two schools now is I give options for timings. So I, I ask parents when would be the best times for them, give them options, and we find a suitably it's a suitably convenient time. And by doing that, once again, we are valuing one another. And actually it goes two way doesn't it the parents are valuing us and we are valuing the parents. And I have been known to have a meeting five o'clock in the evening on a zoom so that both parents can can can be at the meeting or a parent and a grandparent, whoever wants to be at that meeting so I think timing is very important. Who attends. So I once had a meeting, and I thought it was just a mom coming. She brought the grandma. You know they both came in together the mom and the grandma and I thought oh I'm in for it here I'm in for it, because I wasn't expecting two people I was expecting and you know, as a teacher we sometimes have that that feeling of oh gosh, brought in the reinforcements brought in the reinforcements. I couldn't have been any more wrong. The meeting. I had two different pairs of ears listening about the same child that they care for so much. And the feedback I got from the parent was, you know what, I wasn't going to bring my mom. But my mom said can I come along as well. And the conversation we had in the car on the way home was brilliant because we all, we both heard different things. And that was really interesting for me. And now I say, bring however many people you like, and I'll bring the chess, because people, people hear different things. And otherwise, one person will go to the meeting, won't they, they will hear the things that are important to them. And then we go home and feed that back. It's like if any of us go to a meeting we hear the things that interest us most or that we're most worried about. Then we go home and it's not the same message is it it's the diluted bits become even more diluted and the concentrated bits become even more concentrated so I would say, for example, it's a positive. It's a real positive to invite invite invite more people to the meeting. And how do we have the meeting. Some people like face to face meetings. Some people like zoom. Some people like a phone call and some people like face to face. Once again. Really personal choice. Give the options. See what people like what they would prefer. And what we can accommodate as, as a school, and that seems to work very well. And I think emails are a really, really interesting one and and I have to say, I found a little bit contentious. I'm not an email person pookie. I feel that emails can be misconstrued. Yes, you can end up having what I call the spiky conversation via email and the spiky email comes and then you can because of the way you're feeling and the way your, your brain has perceived it and the way you're feeling. You can end up with the war of the spiky emails in its most technical term there. Sounds like a rubbish film. The war of the spiky emails. And I think the way I deal with it and this is just me personally I'll be interested what you think pookie is. When I get the spiky email. I tend to reply or respond either with a phone call or with a face to face conversation but can I just say they are really scary at times. And you have to, you know, you have to take your brave pill and just go right. I will make the phone call and inevitably they actually are better than we think they will be. I think it brings to the forefront. This whole idea of homeschool links, we as teachers get a little bit anxious as well, when we are going to speak to parents and parents get anxious speaking to parents. You know, it's a two way, it's a two way thing that we all do care. And I suppose the question there is finding what we've got in common rather than what divides us perhaps isn't it because actually we all want what's best for the child hopefully at the end of the day. We do. And I think this, I think this is something that is really interesting. How do Sencos come into being pookie? Do you choose to be a Senco? Or are you given the Senco role? And I've been thinking about this a lot because I feel that my role as a Senco has evolved over time. I was given the role as Senco and through my life experiences and through the amazing children I've worked with over time, I have grown into the Senco role and I love my role. And I think as schools we have to consider who is the best person to be the Senco in the same way, or maybe not the same way, but you know, who is the best person for each coordinator role in the school. But I think the Senco, I think it's a bit off them. You know, I do feel it's a part of us. I think if we were a stick of rock, it would say Senco through the middle. And you've hit the nail on the head. It's about the shared caring for children. And it's about not just the child now, but the child in the future. And that comes back to we need to have time, we need to have time as Sencos to be able to do our role really successfully and to be able to immerse ourselves in it and to be able to do the paperwork and to be able to meet the parents and to be able to have those conversations with the parents and the teachers because we are, at its best, an interface often between the home and the class teachers and the teaching assistants. So it is about everyone wanting the best for the children in our care. And do you have different kinds of parent and carer types or conversations that you have because I'm imagining that somebody might be listening to or watching this might have a particular, you know, parent or carer in mind and I'm thinking of two that I get asked about a lot and one is the expert parent carer who perhaps thinks that they know what's going on for their child but they perhaps haven't received that label or diagnosis yet and they are trying desperately to be heard and might feel quite unheard by the system. And then the other I'm thinking about is a parent or carer who doesn't seem very keen to engage and who we find it very difficult to build those bridges with at all and we know that a child who perhaps is struggling with I don't know learning to read say would really benefit from that input home but we're struggling to engage them they're the two that I get asked about most but you might have others and I don't know if you have different strategies for working with those different kinds. I think whatever parent I'm working with the key is for me to listen and to listen to understand. I have quite a lot of parents who they come under generally to to two headings. One is the the parent who is very emotionally charged when they come in. They come in and they are they are they can be very very upset and they come in and they come in with the story of their child. And the story of their child may be linked to their story when they were a child as well. And there can be quite a lot of anger there because what I find is that parents have experienced something in their childhood. And they were never given the support they want so they have that armor on and they are going to fight those that their child doesn't go through what they went through. And I listen to understand and I listen to learn and it's really important that the parent is able to say everything everything to me this is especially this happens when I have parents who are choosing whether their child is going to move from another setting because that has got a lot of emotion with it because imagine that a parent for whatever reason has decided to move their child from one setting to another setting they are moving their child from their peers. They might be moving them out of the catchment area for the secondary school. This needs to be right that they have their armor on and they are testing me. They are testing me and they are testing me about my ethos about my values about my track record. And do you know what? Absolutely. Absolutely ask anything you like. And I will be honest back to you and I will be transparent. I think as Senkas we have to be honest and transparent back. So listening to all of that and allowing them to tell their story. And I say it's like a balloon pookie that has been blown up and let it go and it has to, it has to, all of the air has to be released and they have to be allowed to say their story. And then they're ready to listen. So I have those parents. Then I have the parents who come in. The experts, as he said, who are bringing facts, figures and logic that that's what they're bringing. And they come in with the folder. Yes, the research has been done. Yes. And they have come in and they go, this is, this is my child. This is a diagnosis. And I am presented with that. And I think it is so important that I acknowledge that. I think in my opinion, we have to accept that folder. And I say, would you like me to have a look at any of it now? And they will either say, yes, please, can you have a look at this? Can you have a look at this report? And I think once again, they're testing me. I think they are. And that's, of course they're going to test me pookie. If they've had a bad experience for whatever reason at another school, they are going to check that I am worthy of being the school their child goes to. Absolutely right. So I will look at the paperwork if they ask me to and say, would you like me to tell you what my initial view is? And they say yes. And I've had that and I've told them it and they go, oh, okay. And do you know what pookie? It's like I've passed the first test. You've validated. Yeah. And they go, okay, we'll move on to the next stage. But I expect nothing less. And I think as Sencos, we should be ready for that. Not all this parent is being a bit pushy. It's their child. It's their child's future. And actually, we are so important in paving that way. So I had a parent came in and they said, we really think our child should have an HPP. So I said, okay. And we had another meeting and we looked at it and I said, from what I can see, I think we should look into this further. And they said, well, at the old school, they just kept saying that. But they kept fobbing us off. You know, a bit like the lifting, dirty dancing. We'll do it later. And they never did get the lift. And so I put timescales in for them. They really liked that. I said, right, I will do what I can do. And what I don't know, I will find somebody who can help us. And they said, Jimmy, that is all we've ever wanted to hear. And we just want timescales. We want meetings. And we want somebody to tell us what they do know. And to tell us the things that they don't know. Because that's human. And that is honest, quite interesting. Speaking to other colleagues. Some people can see that as like as why would you say that you don't know something. You know, as a professional, shouldn't we pretend that we know things, because it makes us appear that we don't know what we're talking about. I don't know everything. I don't know everything. I have children coming into my care who have conditions I don't know about. And what I do is I find out about them. I go online, I go on to the different groups I'm on, I go on Twitter, I ask you pookie, you know, I ask people to give me guidance to find out about it. And the next meeting I say I found out this and I found out this, and that's parent want to know that we care about their children, and that we will do what we say will do. So I do have different, different kinds of parents. There are some parents who for whatever reason have got these barriers up. And I need to prove myself over a long amount of time for them to trust me enough for for us to be able to have those conversations about getting outside agents in and I don't push it. I really do listen to the parents, and I might go in thinking I'm going to say one thing in the meeting, but it might change because the time isn't right and I gauge it. And how do you go about knowing I mean because that's the thing when you don't know how do you know. How do you work out what to do next if you are in that situation where you don't know so you said sometimes you're going research and, and sometimes you, you know, you might feel a little bit uncertain about how next to proceed I mean do you work as as part of a team or where do you go next when you're on show. Often I will get in touch with educational psychologists, because they are from my point of view and in my experience they are a great knowledge for me. I have built up a really good network of outside agents of occupational therapists, portage workers in preschool. So I get in touch with different people who know more than I know, and say what do you think. And that works really, really well. I also do my own research by reading around and then take back to the parents where I'm at. Often parents, they come to me with their own books for me to read. They come to me to look up on the internet. And that is brilliant because actually they know their children. And they say, I think you should read this because I think this, this, this is what this epitomizes my child. What do you think. It really is in liaison with lots of people. I think the worst thing we asencos can do is to be tunneled. I think we have to be ready to accept guidance from those who can help us and parents are amazing at giving us guidance and parents know their children best. And when I have phone calls with parents, I write notes so that we've got all the information we can about those children, children coming in, we make sure that the classroom is set up right for them. And another thing, when children first come into our setting, we want to make sure they're coming into an environment that they feel safe and that they feel confident and comfortable in. So, I think one of the most important ones is the, the parent and the school, but also having the outside agents, giving us advice as well. I think actually really listening to the research and the expertise that parents and carers bring is, you know, we can do that in a meaningful way as you say it's so so much the benefit of the child I don't think there's any researcher in the world that can match what a concerned parent is able to do when worried about their child. What if you are confronted with a parent or carer who has done this research and they're absolutely convinced on a point and it just doesn't match up with what you think is going on for that particular child. Do you ever have that situation? I think there has to be a lot of conversation. I think what sometimes happens is things that are happening at home are not the same as what are happening at school. And it is acknowledging that and actually what is seen in one context may not be seen in another context. It may be masking involved, or it may be the different way that the environments run. Sometimes children appear to function better within a classroom situation because there are the very set routines and such like, but then they may go home and they have been so careful and so wanting to be the same as everybody else that they may have outbursts at home. It's the old, I'm sure you've heard of it, the pot bottle, the pot bottle situation that the child is in school and things happen in school but they keep it to themselves, they keep it to themselves. And each time something happens it's like the bottle is being shaken, they get in the car and the parent says, have school been and the child literally explodes. So it is acknowledging that there may be different behaviours at home and at school. And I do think, often, in my experience, to have an educational psychologist coming out and I work with amazing educational psychologists who absolutely look at what's happening at home, what is happening at school, and then they are able to help us, help us because I would like children to be even across both and if we can do that by putting in systems that are the same across both, if we can have, we have different things like we have sensory boxes that have got things from home that come into school, children bring things in from home to school if that works for them. So systems that work in one environment we try to have in the other environment. And we also think if we can inform parents when school is a positive place for their child is really, really important. By phone calls I take photos and send them home because as parents we don't always believe it unless we see it. We don't because that's the nature of being a parent. So if there has been an incident where a child hasn't been very happy saying the playground or whatever, and I go out to monitor it and that child is having a great time on a Pogo stick, for example. I'll take a photo and I send that home because parents also need that reassurance. So I think it's it is that reassurance and sometimes a parent may, may want a, you know, see a diagnosis that maybe the school isn't seeing within the school setting. But then the parents know the child best so we have a discussion about that and the parent, you know, I say yes, go, you know, go for the diagnosis because you feel that that your child is exhibiting, you know, those, those certain traits. And the parents go thanks, because it's not either or it's not either or either or at all it's us working together. So once again it's working together and listening and acknowledging it. And you talk about the role of empathy in your role and that being a kind of big passion for you how does that play out why does it matter so much that empathy. There's this great, great example of empathy. And it's in the book that I told you about the book by Peter Basil Getty called the empathy instinct. There was an art installation in an American museum. And the art installation was putting on a pair of headphones and listening to somebody's story. And to that person's story, you also were given their shoes, and you put your feet in their shoes. And as you listen to the story through the headband, you walked around that art gallery wearing that person's shoes. And that to me is the essence of empathy. The fact that parents who have children with additional needs, it is their whole life. And if we can put ourselves in their shoes, we will begin to understand more. It's not about the hour before the child comes into school. It's not about them picking their child up after school. It is about the child, all the time for that parent. And the wonderful Brené Brown talks about empathy, about actually sometimes parents are overawed by everything they have to do with and for their child, and it can feel like a dark hole. And as educators, we need to say, do you want me to climb down that ladder and come down and stand with you and stand alongside you and be with them. I think the moment that we can be with parents and parents know that we truly do want to feel what they're feeling, then there is that connection. And when we get that connection, then we can all help the child together. I think it is about consciously trying to understand what parents are going through. I think the empathy also works by actually on a daily basis going out and having the conversations with the parents about what the child's been doing during the day, all the positives. I did a talk and a parent messaged me and said I was the parent who dreaded the teacher coming out to say what my child had done wrong that day and it breaks my heart. Our role is to make connections and to walk alongside those parents. And I think we could learn a lot from medicine. Peter Basil Getty, he talks about having a bedside manner. Now, if you've ever been into hospital and taken your child into hospital, I hope everybody else has had this experience that the bedside manner they have is caring. Everyone is together on this. We are as one. And I think we in education can learn from that. I heard an amazing parent talk and she said her child had a medical condition. And when the person in the hospital spoke to the child, they were chatting about the child and the next time something came from the hospital, the headed note paper had a picture of a pug on the top of it, because the child had a pug. And the letter to the child had a picture. And it makes me really emotional because that is a little thing, Pookie, but it's such a big thing. And that became such a positive link between home and school because that person from the hospital had just picked up on that about the child. And the child didn't wait for the letters to come home from the hospital, and then the child was sending the letters back and suddenly everybody's shoulders go down. And there is, everyone is just working together. Jamil Zaki, The War for Kindness, which is another book that I've told you about. I love this idea, we catch one another's empathy. That's a lovely idea. How wonderful is that that we catch one another's empathy. And when I first found out how strong the role of empathy was, I actually had to consciously think about it. And that's okay, because actually we, you know, we talk about the consciousness, and then it became more a way of being. But the other thing is, the children in my care became more empathetic. So I have seen children, they have changed and become more, more empathetic because they have seen it and we have our mirror neurons, don't we? What we do, others mirror, whether it is children, whether it is staff, whether it is parents. And that is really, really powerful. And the other day a child came up to me, and I don't teach him anymore, but he came up to me and then he said, you don't look too good this morning, Mrs. Boopman. Mrs. Boopman needs a cup of tea and then she'll feel better. And I was like, wow, he actually had, he had looked at my expression, he'd looked at my behaviour. He'd done what I think is called cognitive empathy. He'd read me as a person, and from that he then decided what he would do to make me feel better. And it blows me away the role that empathy, it breaks down barriers, doesn't it, Pookie, by having that empathy and consistently being like that. I think that's important as well, that everybody knows that there is a consistency to actually, actually if I need to go and see the Senko about something, I know that person will listen to me without judging me, but will be with me. Does that mean that you have quite a heavy load to carry though, because if you are kind of getting in the hole with your children and their parents and there's perhaps a lot of worry and fear and guilt and shame sometimes, then do you carry that or are you able to walk away? I think that's really interesting because they also talk about that you can, when you are feeling that you are unable to, at that moment in time, carry that empathy with you, then you acknowledge it and then you, I suppose, pass the baton on to somebody else. And that's really important, I'm really pleased that you mentioned that. You know when you're having a bad day and you are having a bad day, that we acknowledge that and we ask another member of staff or a teaching assistant when we are in that environment where people are empathetic, that we say, Mrs So-and-so, can you just have a word with Mrs So-and-so or so that we can pass that over to somebody else so that we do share it, because it's important to look after ourselves, it's the old adage isn't it, put on your own oxygen mask before you put on somebody else's. So I think we do have to be very aware of our own capacity to be able to shoulder it and when we aren't able to, that we do ask somebody else to help us out. Absolutely. And I think that is really important and I do think that, you know, you talked about being a senko earlier as being kind of almost like a vocation or a calling, a real passion that people have and in my experience, often the kinds of people who are drawn to these kind of roles are not necessarily so good at knowing when to look after themselves. Very good at looking after everyone else but not always so good at looking after them. And it has to be a consciousness. Actually, I'm not going to be any good to anybody else if I burn out or if, you know, if I take too much on. And so yes, I think it is that consciousness that actually I need to ask for help and asking for help I think we need to see as a strength. Yeah. And we need to see ourselves as role models perhaps in doing that too, don't we. And I think as a role model, we mirror it and then other people do pick up on it. In my experience, my colleagues, they, you know, we all have got that empathy. We all are role models for one another. Yeah, absolutely. On a totally different note, I have to ask you about chickens and how much we can learn from chickens. Well, I got chickens in the first lockdown, and I have to say it's been such a long time that my chickens have laid eggs, those eggs have hatched, and now they are laying eggs. So that is how long. Yeah, yeah, I mean that is, you know, when you think how long, how long has COVID been, you know, I've got, I've got baby chickens now laying eggs. So I go out in the mornings and I let my chickens out and you have all different kinds of chickens. Do you have chickens pookie? No, I don't have chickens, Ginny. I think I'll be regretting that by the end of this conversation. Right, chickens, if you're feeling sad, you go out to your chickens, you let the chickens out, and some chickens just get the food that they know where it is. They always go to the same food, right? They are just the chickens like the, I don't know, the chickens who just always like it the same, you know, and I think some of, we all like things the same, don't we, sometimes. And then I have me or the chickens, they just run around looking for the food, pookie, the food's always in the same place, but they have to run around, they have to run around, have a little, have a little gas with their friends, have a little chat, and then they come back and the food was always there pookie. So, you know, I think we can learn a lot from chickens because some chickens go and some people just like the calmness. I'm going to get up this morning, and I'm going to have my frosties, and I'm going to have it in the same bowl with the same spoon. Don't know about you, pookie. I have a bowl and a spoon that I like. Yes, yes, you know, and, and I do, you know, you know, whereas some people would go, oh, this morning, what shall I have? I might have frosties, I might have porridge, you know, I might have a little bagel with a bit of cheeky cream cheese, and then they go, oh, but I will just have the frosties, you know, I'll come back to the frosties. And, and then I have some, some of my chickens just go off, I don't know where they think they're going. And do you know what happens? When they come back. And I have to have a bit of food left for them because all the other chickens have eaten all of all of the food. So I think I call them my chickens of hope, because, and then I never know how many eggs are going to lay. Right. And then some of them lay where they should. And it's like a gift from heaven. Every egg, I thank them, because, you know, you do, don't you? But then I have that, you know, the rogue chicken, you know, you know that, you know that person in your life who just goes, I'm just going to run off, and I'm going to lay my egg wherever today. And you've got to find it. So I just think chicken are amazing because they bring happiness, and they bring a little bit of chaos. And I've got one chicken, I have to tell you, one chicken gets out every day, every day, gets out. And people go, Jimmy, did you know your chickens out? But do you know what, pookie? It always comes back. Really? Yeah. So you've got those friends, you know, those friends, colleagues, children who got, I want that freedom. And they go out and, and, and they always come back. So it's, but you know, every chicken always comes back at night because they just need to come back so they can have their freedom, whatever, but they always come back at night. And, and they're always pleased to see me. I give them grain, they take grain out of my hand. So it is kind of, it's a little bit of love really pookie. That's lovely. Who knew that chickens were such a fascinating study. There you go. And I guess it actually just like you were talking before about creating that kind of safe space. So a parent or carer who hasn't been heard before is able to finally talk and talk until their balloon is empty. You kind of do that for the chickens. It's safe and warm and nice here. So it's safe and warm and nice. And then, and they lay different coloured eggs, which is even more exciting. And yeah, depending, I guess it's what breed they are, but we have different colour. So we know what, which, which chicken has laid, which egg and they give us, they give us the gifts that they give us. But yeah, they come back to the safety and we all need that safety. I love that analogy. You know, they all go back to their safe place. That's lovely. That's really lovely. I feel our time is coming to a close. What thought would you like to leave people with? I think it comes back to art installation. And I think it comes back to when you get the spiky email, when you get the parent who comes in, who has got their armour on. There is a reason. There is a reason. There is a story behind that. You can actually listen to understand and put yourself if you can in their shoes and the more transparent, the more honest you are, the more connections you will have with those parents. Over time, the relationship that you have with the parents is something that will aid their child in their journey. The parents I work with ask me so many things because they trust me. They trust me. And when we've got the trust, that is when the barriers go down. And when the children, the children get the best education and the best relationships and the children see that. The children see that. They see us talking to the parents. They see the positivity and that is what it's all about. It's about us all working for the children together and that the children can see we are like a human comfort blanket for them. They know we are there for them.