 with an extreme topography characterized by steep slopes and narrow villages. The forests along these steep slopes are protecting the villages in the narrow valleys against avalanches, rockfalls, landslides and wide waters. Life without these forests would not be possible. Therefore the sustainability of the forests is essential for the development as a whole. Back in the 19th century deforestation was a big issue in Switzerland. The industrial revolution led to a sharp increase of population and wood was at that time the only available resource. The increased demand for construction and firewood triggered an uncontrolled deforestation. The consequences in the second half of the 19th century were devastating. Avalanches, landslides, rockfallings and flood destroyed many of these villages. Against this background the Swiss government was forced to take drastic measures by introducing the first time the principle of sustainability in a forest law in 1876. This law is still the backbone of our forestry policy. It says as a rule deforestation is prohibited. In exceptional cases a deforestation permit may be granted but for all deforestation compensation in kind must be provided in the same region. The result of this policy is that the surface of forests in Switzerland increased by more than 30% during the last 140 years. Lessons learned of our experience. Social forestry plays a key role and rests on strong institutions. Actually we don't know anything else than social forestry in Switzerland. I think what we also understood that ownership, ownership for the respect and for the maintaining the forests is very crucial and we have in Switzerland I think the situation where all stakeholders still are very much backing this forest law. Today it's about accommodating interests of protecting the forests with sustainable agriculture and with sustainable tourism. Now this own experience might also explain why Switzerland is supporting sustainable forestry all over the world including Southeast Asia. One prominent example is the ASEAN-Swiss partnership on social forestry and climate change and with this project we want support three main things that social forestry should be integrated in a overall policy. The second is it's important to share experience between the different ASEAN member countries about best practices in social forestry and the third objective of this project is to build capacity. I would take also this opportunity to announce the next ASEAN social forestry conference. It will highlight the theme on enhancing livelihood and conservation benefits through social forestry for a green ASEAN community in Kotoki Nabalo Sabah from the 21st to the 26th of May. I wish you all a good discussion forum. Thank you very much. I'd like to invite Dr Aman Razal if we can pass this mic over here. Oh you have one, oh great. This is a study that I undertook together with our moderator Ms Krissi Guerrero of the non timber forest products exchange program and we are thankful to all the respondents and the organizations that provided us with the data that we collected on technologies that are available for non timber forest products in the region and if I don't mention your technology it's not because your technology is important it's not it's not important just because I only have 10 minutes to for this discussion. The inspiration to this study was the experience of the non timber forest products exchange program in initiating the tie-up or the linkage between the Cambodia resin gatherers and the researchers at the forest products research and development institute in Los Baños. The resin gatherers in Cambodia are an impoverished group. They do not get enough value from the resins that they gather and what they did was what NTFP did was to link them with the researchers at FPRDI in the Philippines which help identify the components present in the resin and consequently this has helped improve the processing and utilization of resin in Cambodia. Next please. The outline of presentation is a shown. Next please. And for the six countries that we visited we have a long list of different non timber forest products. Next please. And we are highlighting here the non timber forest products that have received considerable research attention in the countries that we visited and also some degree of commercialization. Next please. And as for the trends in as far as utilization and processing of non timber forest products is concerned there is a wide range of NTFPs including bamboo, rattan, spams, resins, wild food and medicinal plants. And next please. And what we have noticed is that for similar non timber forest products there is varying degree of utilization and therefore benefits derived by the forest based communities across countries. In many areas the NTFPs remain unprocessed at the community level and we have noticed that a visionary, a leader is important in the community to initiate or pursue value addition and enterprise development activities. Next please. And we have also noticed that gatherers and producers of non timber forest products while they initiate the value chain the performance of this vital function is grossly underrated because they don't get much value from the harvesting of the NTFPs. Next please. And to show you how important NTFPs are an estimated 300 million people in the ASEAN region are dependent on forest and mostly these are indigenous peoples whose customary ways are linked closely with non timber forest products. Non timber forest products account for as much as 25% of the income of close to 1 billion people globally. Next please. And what we have noticed also is that the gathering or production of non timber forest products are largely undocumented or poorly recorded. And there is an existence of local markets that where the local people can sell their products and also significant cross border, mainly illegal markets. And for the commercially traded products, the volumes of globally traded products are fluctuating. And we have also observed that interregional NTFP trade meaning trade between ASEAN member countries are small compared to trade between ASEAN and the rest of the world. Next please. For the scope of the study, we simply looked at the different products and processes that are used to convert NTFPs. And the objective of this is to determine what technologies can be shared across countries with the end in view of finding technologies that can be shared that can address the emergence of the green economy. And by technology we mean interventions or activities that can add value to the resource, primarily for the gatherers, the processors at the community level to gain higher benefit from these products. And as mentioned, we have visited six countries. These are Malaysia, Indonesia, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia and the Philippines. And basically we interviewed representatives of government organizations, NGOs. And we had actually very few time available to visit private and actual NTFP processing operations. Next please. And we have observed that R&D on developing technologies for bamboo dominate the R&D activities in the six countries visited, encompassing propagation, plantation development, product development, pole preservation, as well as analysis of bamboo value chains. As far as R&D technologies are concerned, what stands out is what Laos is doing. It has undergone certification of R&D forest. And the R&D are delivered to certified manufacturer who is of NFC chain of cost to be certified. And he makes products following sustainable designs with minimal use of materials, less waste and avoid the use of nails and fasteners. However, this is an isolated case and the efforts for certification of R&D have to be replicated. Next please. In the Philippines, there is a SABU furniture industry federation that produce innovative high end furniture designs. They use mixed materials. Aside from R&D, they use vines, bamboo, marble to make furniture products. And they continuously train the workforce to become more skilled in furniture making and design. Next please. The Forest Research Institute in Malaysia, they formulate and develop an array of plant-based health products such as nutraceuticals and they do this in collaboration with the private sector and the community to ensure the sustainable supply of plant materials. Next please. In Indonesia, they were able to develop an inoculation method to infect the acularia tree to accumulate the resin. And this involves the use of liquid preparation of three compatible inoculant strains which are injected to the tree at the right time to induce the formation of resin-rich acularia wood. Next please. And in Cambodia, there is an enterprise that undertakes the drying of choreifa leaves and they were also able to develop a mechanical bundling equipment prior to the shipment of the leaves to Vietnam. Basically, that is the one that is used to make the Vietnam hats. Next please. And a long list of other technologies and innovations like in Indonesia. We have colleagues here who will talk about the Indonesian forest honey network. And again, I mentioned this earlier, the composition of the dipterocarp resin in Cambodia has been determined which expanded uses and enabled better tapping and harvesting and handling practices that increased the value for resin gatherers. Also in Cambodia, they were able to document the sources and collection methods for wild food recipes. And they found that food is adulterated when you add synthetic condiments. And consequently, they also developed agrosystem models for better management and conservation of the forest for food. Next please. In the Philippines, we have a Philippine textile research institute that developed environment friendly extraction processes from different plant sources. And they were able to develop technology to convert the extracts into dye powder for longer shelf life, convenience and transport, and a broad range of other applications. Next please. Next please. Yeah. Oops. Next please. Okay. And among the issues and that we have been able to identify as a result of the study is the paucity of research on non timber forest products. A recurring theme here in this conference is the paucity of research over all in forestry. But consider that NTFE products are a minor component of forest. And therefore, the research activities is even much smaller compared to the research being done on timber resources. There is also a mismatch between non timber forest products research, priorities and actual gaps. Our colleagues in Cambodia complained, in Myanmar complained that NGOs have very little information to share with the communities that they serve because the research institute does not conduct a lot of research that will be useful to the community. We also have problems with sustainability of non timber forest products. Data on non timber forest products are lacking and there are methodological problems to determine how adequate the resource is to meet the demands of industry. Next please. And of course, we have problems with availability and access to information. Communities that need information on technologies for non timber forest products are basically remote relative to the location of the research institute. And therefore, they cannot access updated information on NTFEs. There is also a problem with access to financing, especially in the acquisition of equipment that is needed to convert non timber forest products. And in terms of scaling up and transforming NTFEs, this requires long term studies. But basically the funders of research on NTFEs like government is impatient on research results that can be generated. Next please. And of course it's also important to highlight the role of policy. We have noted that relatively the policies are inadequate in most of the countries that we have visited. And as a result, households, communities and the private sector are not able to set out long term plans for plantation and business enterprise development. Of course in contrast, Indonesia has recently completed a set of NTFE specific policies. And also in Cambodia, they have provided a three year tax breaks for community based honey enterprise. Overall, contradicting policies remain that continue to hamper the NTFE sector development across the region. Next please. So for our recommendations, especially in regard to what the ASEAN can do, we would like to have a network of institutions in different ASEAN countries created, established on the basis of the strengths or the capacity that exists in each of these countries. We also are recommending the creation of an ASEAN expert working group on non timber forest products that will provide a regional cooperation among the proposed country based centers. And we hope that non timber forest products will be included as part of this programs. National policy should be more aggressive in promoting the ASEAN economic community. The research done by Chandra and Co, this 2014 shows that those 65 to 99% of all businesses in ASEAN countries are micro small medium enterprises. There hasn't been a lot of focus. There hasn't been a lot of benefit for this group. So we're trying to see how we can involve that, especially in the social forestry sector. So I turn over to a small enterprise to Rakhib to share their community forestry and their forest honey experience. So please kindly use the translation device as well. Thank you. Can we shut the lights please? In order to return the drone image to the forest honey, we're still doing training at the Kulompok level, especially with the Lestari and Hygienist system, with the Tiris system, to improve the quality of this honey. The forest honey is one of the products that we're really interested in and some analysts have seen that the forest honey is a very organic product and can be developed into a product that makes the lives of the people healthy. According to us here, the forest is very supportive for the development of the forest here. So we don't have any kind of development, any kind of development, but we're only interested in coffee and rice. The forest honey is used in many areas, especially near the forests, so we hope that they won't spread the honey, but keep the honey as well. The forest honey is probably good, the taste is also good, because we've been doing this for two and a half years, more than 11 tons of forest honey that we've managed to produce. So if we want to reduce the consumption of the forest honey in Indonesia, we have to make sure that the product that we produce always meets the standard that has been established. The forest honey is one of the potentials owned by Indonesia. The economy that we build in the forest honey is how to increase the population of the forest and how to increase the population of the community. We hope that anyone who wants to be the building owner of the BNI will be able to increase the population of his life, will be able to increase his knowledge and, God willing, all forest honey will be able to produce a global market. Welcome to the Indonesian forest honey or JMAI. The Indonesian forest honey was born in 2005 with the secretary of the Riyak Bumi Ponte Anak and PD Dian Diaga Jakarta was part of the project. JMAI was established to establish the forest as a wild habitat, to increase the population of the forest and to respect the local heritage. Now there are 9 meters of support, more than 1,000 forest honey in the 80s in Indonesia. The forest honey combined in JMAI in 2007. Through the Indonesian forest honey, the forest honey and the Higines forest because of the demand for quality honey. The forest honey is more than 450 of the forest and 11 cooperations with more than 17,000 hectares of forest in the combination of the production of the forest honey. Then the production capacity of the Indonesian forest honey The forest honey from the Indonesian forest honey was estimated to reach 200 tons per year. In 2008, PD Dian Diaga spent 15.9 tons. A large part was sold to MUI. At the community level, about 1.35 billion or 118.4 U.S. dollars. The total production was close to 70 tons. The production of the Indonesian forest honey per year from 2008 to 2013 as we can see on the table. For example, Sumbawa forest honey 50 tons 125 kilograms This can be seen from according to Ikelim because there are very few bees there. Then the price of the forest from 2008 to 2013 with the intervention of the forest honey the price of the forest honey increased by 14 percent up to 321 percent. The price of the forest honey was raised in 2008 one example we see on the table which is associated with Sumbawa 28 thousand per kilogram and now it has reached 2013 90 thousand per kilogram here we see that there is a significant increase with the presence of the Indonesian forest honey. Then the presence of the forest honey and the sale of the Sumbawa forest honey data shows that the contribution of the forest honey to the family is 2 500 thousand or with 220 US dollars from the cooperation supported by the Sumbawa forest honey they also received the contribution from the Sumbawa forest honey sale then the sale was done by the Sumbawa forest honey the stock in Sumbawa started to sell other local and sell online other for MOE so we see on the table how the data of the Sumbawa forest honey with the Sumbawa forest honey in Jakarta since 2008 until 2013 so from the first there are 3 tons 435 then 3 tons 435 in 2010 2 tons 10 kilogram then 2011 5 tons 680 2012 5 tons 900 and 2013 with 5 tons then the contribution of the Sumbawa forest honey combined with the Sumbawa forest honey the first exchange of information increased the attention of the Sumbawa forest honey or local and international organizations especially the continued development of the market together and connect the production of the Sumbawa forest honey with the Sumbawa forest honey because of the results and the agreement of the Sumbawa forest honey the organization that now the official development of the intellectual property Sumbawa forest honey now the Sumbawa forest honey the organization that now the Sumbawa forest honey can be developed from the the condition that does not benefit from the the interpension of the Sumbawa forest honey then the challenge the increase the capacity is still needed at the city level and many farmers still need to practice following the standard of the Sumbawa forest honey then the Sumbawa forest honey supported by the Sumbawa forest honey still a little and because the maximum production is not reached then the competition with the exchange exchange has affected the production of the honey limited the staff of the Sumbawa forest honey to monitor to see to see then the recommendation from the government the first which is to cover the economic project that causes deforestation and support economic project such as the effort the result of the forest honey that increases the quality of the forest the second support the way to promote the production of the honey such as the certification of the geographical indication the third support the promotion of the Sumbawa forest honey or the central plan the development integration from Hulu to Hilir in Sumbawa and other regions by the Ministry of Forest the fourth explain the plan to implement the Pajak distribution for the forest honey at the level of ASEAN if there will be an ASEAN integration program inform the forest honey and the production NTVF how they can contribute and benefit from the private sector the first to help the development and promotion by the products and other resources in Sumbawa the second to facilitate the services for the forest honey thank you if we go to Europe we are ready to return almost in the map all the map is it is far in very remote area but we can see the blue sky no pollution it is a really good quality of honey so next slide this is our common ground maybe I can don't need to explain more but we put B in the planet and 3 conservation B we concern to apis dorsata only because the other B is apis melifera apis serena it is cultivated honey or we call it box honey apis dorsata is wild it is untamed it is really wild in the other hand honey collector group GMHI encourage to plant a tree as the nectar sources for the B so this is a people B and the profit will explain in the later next we focus on only apis dorsata the giant rock B it is one inch the biggest B in the world but it is funny in Europe in the European community apis dorsata is not considered as B just another insect maybe some kind of protection they consider B is only from apis melifera we also protect the habitat of B of course the forest itself encourage the forest drilling people the indigenous people to protect the habitat for alternative income from non timber forest product build a profitable trading system with profit sharing provide a marketing of good quality honey and good price next this is a simple value change for supplier forest honey supplier and GMHI members and Tianyaga actually not production producer of honey is B itself we just do the bottling, labeling and send to M-way beside of M-way there is also supermarket corporate but this is short list of change we also have support from Swiss contact for instance problem 2009 2010 and 2011 there is no honey at all so I almost get claim from Pakun from M-way we invite him please go to the site inspect by yourself there is no honey at all there is the float there is the banjir float in the Dano and the in Dano centrum like centrum mostly used to cook artificial nest so the fish get benefit from the comb so honey collector get nothing pricing apis melifera and apis serena is cultivate honey so they have to income from the pollination services and also from the honey they can sell little quite cheap lower price than dorsata and in Jakarta of course we compete with foreign product like manuka honey they prefer to take manuka from New Zealand instead of our brand dorsata yeah channel distribution is very high cost for Indonesia that's why we we consider we have the multi-level marketing in our networking for marketing the other challenge is the education for customer is like this for one kilo for honey the bee should visit 4 million flowers but to produce one kilo for market the bee produce 8 kilo to consume it it's mean for one kilo that is 32 million visiting to the if we sell in the 300 gram 300 gram it is maybe close to 10 million visiting the bee foraging so this is this is totally difference if we compare with import honey from China they put the box in the what in the green house inside they produce honey I don't know not human not bee is not treat bee like that bee should be in the nature so we also didn't show here in the presentation before the honey collector climb the tree they do a praying a chanting they sing a beautiful song in the middle of night very amazing so forest honey is a part of religion a part of culture a part of conservation this is not a simple product as both honey not business at all more complicated last minute or so sorry we need lot of research this is the bottle of M-way how much they sell it is 148,800 close to 12 euro in retail price and this is for middle income the next this is dorsata dorsata also selling in 150,000 per 3,300 gram the gift item actually is designed for Garuda and also for President Yudo Yono President gift item but we wait for the sixth type at last we get the florist one and we have complete six type in one pack but unfortunately the contact of the president house is I don't know we can not contact him maybe Kape take him until now we didn't success to sell this as a gift item the Madutan is the for economic the next this is the market expand 2006 2007 and 2014 we try to export but to Holland and to Switzerland but the price is not encouraging in the retail price in Europe it is 4 to 5 euro per half liter it is if we sell it in Indonesia 3 times we can sell it in Indonesia 12 euro so it is no point to export I think the last is profit sharing the group of farmer get 30% from our market from our profit and NGO why NGO get 20% because we need NGO the most difficult to start business is who trust who when I must pay the honey collector they refuse check they want a bank note but how to carry so many bank note it is scary 53 hour to the jungle so do the marketing you take the honey from the forest gate and sell in very sophisticated market in Jakarta it is very delicate last year we bring 1.2 million rupiah it is a lot of money we need NGO to do the internet not possible to bring bank note at any time and gem HSI take 10% our profit sharing and marketing take 40% and this is the last this is the last one quotation from the Albert Einstein if the bee extinct from the earth mankind have only 4 years to survive you see the the sad picture that is the colony collapse disorder the apis melifera is dying the colony decrease no more pollination this is the reason no plan no more animal and maybe no more mankind thank you thank you very much but Johnny about 450 years ago and commonly cultivated in the mountainous area and 90% of the regional income set to come from the coffee and more than 1 fourth of the family entirely depend on coffee production for their living that means a small cultivator staple food rice or maize necessity such as the closest from the coffee revenue only the coffee revenue on average they can get 200 to 250 US dollar in 2012 when I started to research in this area and East Timor is a mountainous topography which limit the agriculture land available and strongly seasonal which also limited planting season and soil derived from limestone it's actually chemically rich but physically very difficult to cultivate because during the dry season it becomes too hard to cultivate so the East Timor is far from the self sufficiency of food so this ok next slide please so this is the topography of the East Timor as you can see from this slide there is no vegetation due to the repeated slush and barn agriculture and also the heavy grazing by cattle and of course the top soil almost eroded next slide please ok so coffee so they actually the planting the Arabica coffee which is internationally highly placed and they are cultivating coffee traditional way that means they plant shade tree first and waiting for approximately 10 years and then they plant the coffee seeding beneath the shade tree and they use no agricultural chemicals or no fertilizer simply because they cannot afford to buy and they do no pruning or no waiting at all so all coffee cultivation in East Timor can be said environment conserving they are actually creating forests and which means the coffee cultivation in East Timor is friendly next slide so this is the coffee garden actually I may call it coffee forest and as you can see the coffee can grow easily without pruning at the height of 5 meter and the small boy have to climb up to pick up the cherry behind the coffee tree you can see Paracelian one of two shade tree which is planted in East Timor next slide please so this is a forest and man made forest but beneath this shade tree there is a coffee so this is a coffee forest again this is a topography of the East Timor you can see below there is a forest this is another shade tree a castle linear tree and again under this castle there is a coffee production only the coffee cultivated we can see the forest okay next so but this environment conserving of coffee cultivation the eat remained low and poor quality actually potentially this Arabic coffee is high quality but due to the poor harvest and poor post harvest technique the quality remains very low and the purchase price also remained very very low and why the people do not improve the coffee quality is it difficult to improve the quality of the coffee actually not at all it's very very simple no high tech or no cost of improving but for example this is selecting the high quality beans even the small children can do it and why are the coffee growing community rarely interested in the quality of the coffee because little access to knowledge or method for improving quality and adding value and also they are cut off from outside market there's only one agent or buyer in East Timor and they are buying coffee with fixed price and this local price does not reflect real market price so there's a weak incentive to improve the quality of the coffee okay so we made a project to improve this situation putting the local farmer or producer in global context and improving agroecological harvesting and processing technique which was assisted by the coffee company Pette Torreco-Torreger in Indonesia they warmly welcomed coffee cultivator of East Timor to the Torreger area and they can communicate in Bahasa easily thanks to Pette Torreger and also the producer by promoting consumer public to select green product and those to improve the cultivator status within the commodity chain okay so next one please okay next I'm going too fast okay next one okay next one next one okay so okay this is actually so everybody is putting too many things to the green economies but for me it seems there's a three pillar for green economy the one is quality product and the other one is quality environment and the third one is economic viability and to connect these three things okay next one please mediation is important mediation through the social relationship this is the key to achieve the green economy next one please Pette Torreger what is Pette Torreger also this is many meaning but for me this is just linked between the production side and the consumer side for the production side emphasizing the environment conservation or coffee quality to add the value in the industrial market and for consumption side inspires consumers to know how and by whom the commodity they can consume and produce this is very important things next slide please these small girls are actually producing the coffee in East Timor and you may okay next one please you may think this is child labor actually not this is a family work of course this situation is not best but it is not child labor to be blamed okay next one please so all the women also helping to collect the coffee okay next so the linkage beyond market place that's a very significant to improve the quality of improving the quality of the connection to overcome not in my backyard sentiment and also to overcome dichotomy of the producer and the consumer so consumer should be the producer if properly connected okay next one please and another significant is the pride of skilled production that's important for the people there increase the confidence from gaining adequate live food and the mating family when the environment enhancing activity can be get from this skill of production and pride of that so okay next one please so family agriculture this is a year of the family agriculture which United Nations are discriminated and it is said there are over 500 million family farms and also there are responsible for at least 56% of agricultural product on 56% of the land and in the case of the coffee 70% are coming from the small family cultivation and if that is so green economy never never never realized without the last one please the small farmers pride for future that's what I want to say thank you very much thank you very much Professor Kenichi we face a lot of challenge next please we learn from almost 35 years of commercial logging in Indonesia and it seems that the local community they don't get substantial you know access to the forest it also at the end a lot of territorial conflict social unrest because they don't have enough land especially in Sumatra in Kalimantan and right now there are problem of logging still and on the extent of the illegal migration is the common problem in Sumatra and Kalimantan in forest and land fire illegal forest conversion and land selling illegal land selling and so on it's happening one of the reason is also because of the legal law enforcement this is the problem we face next please and we we think that the social forestry could be a appropriate solution we provide access to the local community to the farmer who work near the forest area or in the forest area and we secure the access for them for 35 years at least we guarantee access they manage the state forest for quite numbers of years next please but unfortunately it is not easy when we set up a policy to put almost 22 million hectares of state forest land for the local people but the proposal from the forest district is only about 800,000 hectares so less than half and the forest the proposal go to Jakarta and we process the proposal from the district but there are many problems and only 300,000 hectares we can issue the permit and even when the ministry issue the permit for 300,000 hectares for forest community there is still a problem that the district level only can issue 80,000 hectares very small portion so we face the problem of the it seems to me that the local district they are not willing to put this social forestry program into their priority even though the proposal is coming from their people in that district so it is something surprising for me maybe if the proposal coming from mining is different story for local people is of course this this program is very important but local district it seems they look at a different way Anjut, go ahead for the Hutandesa is quite interesting because the national target is 500,000 but the proposal is more than the national target is more than 700,000 hectares and again there is a problem that until now we just issue 266,000 hectares and support from the governor is also very weak except the governor from from from Jambi, I know Jambi because there is a war seat there and West Sumatra province is very eager to put a lot of Hutandesa in that so the project is very much not only problem at Jakarta level but also there is a problem at the provincial and district level to support this program go ahead the common characteristic of solar frustrations in ASEAN go ahead please this is the common at the ASEAN country community living in surrounding forests and empowerment of the community in sustainable forest management through awareness raising capacity building and so on participation and the profession of right is very important go ahead social forestry program activities and improving community livelihood the social forestry enterprise development developing non-team refresh product upstream and downstream linkage is also becoming the constant across the country at the ASEAN level go ahead multi-stakeholder engagement for bamboo and social forestry program it just have Indonesia Council on bamboo development Indonesia Bamboo foundation and so on facilitation and partnership in the community and enterprise development for bamboo product from forest areas go ahead multi-stakeholder engagement for natural sex also one of the program we have across ministry partnership forestry industry trade small and medium enterprises tourism and creative economy go ahead multi-stakeholder engagement in agarwood forest honey and ratan as we know already we have sentra for many non-team refresh product ratan for instance is also one of our constant go ahead research commitment needed for ensuring sustainable social forestry there are social forestry evaluation research result that solidify the economic environment and social cultural values of social forestry is very important research on the right tree for the right place scientifically proven recommendation for selection three is any social forestry practices research on market demand market potential risk and cost go ahead but will you be able to wrap up in one minute? one minute okay investment require for social forestry and sustainable value chain investment from central and local government and budget allocation for social forestry investment from private sector through focus group discussion multi-stakeholder processes and demanding relevant value for social forestry product branding, marketing benefit sharing investment from social from local community go ahead thank you very much for sharing the results activities and challenges of social forestry we thank you Dr. Paddock for your short input I'm to fewer than those so I will attempt to make a few comments I'll attempt to make them vaguely coherent although I doubt that I'm going to reach that and I'm going to do it very very quickly so what I think you know since I can only make about two or three points I think what we've seen here are several very interesting examples very important examples of how research institutions government institutions outreach training can work and the private sector can actually work within small holder systems both to enhance not only environments, forests sustainable landscapes but also livelihoods of people and I think it's important the idea of working within these institutions within these systems actually trying to build upon knowledge, trying to build upon local organization trying to build upon what the environment offers trying to build upon traditions of management traditions that are valued for various reasons rather than trying to replace them I think this morning for instance we heard about some visions of green economy and some that could possibly be and probably are quite profitable for small holders but I think there are other models and I think we've heard here about these other models where small holders are not just tiny little industrial producers they're not just feeding into an industrial process but actually there are ways there are other models of a green economy there are other models of enhancing small holder systems of linking the private sector with communities community producers this is such an enormous enormous private sector actually and to offer another model which perhaps should not be the only model but it isn't a model we also need of what green economy can mean and what enhancing local communities can actually mean so I think that what we've seen here is both an enrichment of that knowledge and an enrichment of that discussion of what green economy can be and also it's I think very important for updating what local communities really are often we focus very much just on how remote they are and many of them are remote but also many of them are participating in markets quite effectively and none of this is very easy but this is a challenge that all of our institutions and all of us I think need to work on I would also like to add just one little thing and I promise this will be sort of one sentence or so on the idea of updating our ideas of what the local communities are and what they can be and I think often that somehow eludes us and it's actually something that we're also working on in the ASFC projects and in the ASEAN social forestry network also understanding just how mobile not only how linked to other communities small holders can be but how mobile they are and understanding this sort of diversity of how they make their livelihoods also to understand for instance the importance of migration and remittances these days and if we're going to talk about some of these value chains and we're going to talk about investment maybe we should also talk about attempts to really to both understand and to channel remittances all those all of these communities have people who have gone to cities who've gone many of whom have even gone overseas and are looking for ways also I think to successfully invest what they bring back and for families to successfully capture that and invest and I think this is yet another area if I may add to this conversation another area which again may sort of level the playing field a bit more for small holders and can also add new and more sort of profound meaning to what green economy actually can be thank you. Thank you very much Dr. Christine for your inputs. You mentioned their share of costs among actors along the value chains mentioned about farmers she mentions about marketing and what is you mentioned about the share to NGO which is 20% so doesn't mean that NGO take over the roles of middlemen I think that's my questions after I find the market don't like me because it takes almost 18 months to meet M-Way approved by M-Way so that is time investment and so we need trust I also their partner is we shake hand three of us please guide the quality don't your people mix with sugar and I get claim from market is please don't happen three of us we trust each other the integrity because we need the same commitment to start this long term to marketing we need a stamina to do everything networking this is networking marketing not middlemen this is a long term commitment between us until now we keep our honor to ourselves and I still do the marketing whatever hard the job I do it and asking about the profit sharing I think it's not take over the profit like a reward profit sharing is profit and risk taking so when they sell the price to say 90,000 rupiah we pay 90,000 rupiah and then after we marketing to M-Way that is a profit margin again that is split to 30% for indigenous people group 20% for NGO who facilitating them and 10% for association this we need our own pocket money so the Jaringan is not depend too much to donor with our we are free to do what we think is good and marketing take a 40% that is the SOP of JMHI thank you