 Thank you very much for joining us. My name is Yvonne Lobos. I am from the Institute for Advanced Sustainability Studies in Germany, and I have the pleasure to welcome you to this session where we'll try to answer one of those very easy questions that we'd like to set for ourselves and today we're going to try to figure out what are the conditions for success for large-scale land restoration and creating these conditions for success is going to be one of the main questions that we'll answer today and I wanted to Start with saying two words about how exciting it is to discuss these very topics in this session today Because we have been seeing a lot of momentum created for these type of initiatives just today We witnessed the official launch of the 20 by 20 initiative where many Latin American countries have pledged to restore 20 million hectares by 2020 and like this there have been many other initiatives that Have been successful in many ways have faced challenges in other ways So the main question that I wanted to start with was if we're gonna be talking today about how to create this condition for success What is the what is really a successful land restoration project and initiative? So as we have seen from many experiences most of the most successful restoration initiatives have been a combination of very highly advanced technical expertise Combined with collaboration with multiple stakeholders private public civil society they have also very much involved new forms of inclusive governance and diversified sources of funds and resources and We have many examples. We saw yesterday the example of t-grade in Ethiopia We have seen many other examples of large-scale sole decontamination initiatives There's a lot of successful examples of restoration So it seems that we know from a technical perspective and from an implementation perspective how to do land restoration So if we know this then I would like to post questions here and to get us thinking about why Most of these projects usually never fail, but also never managed to scale up We also keep on facing challenges for the successful Implementation of landscape approaches and within existing governance systems at the national level And we also see a lot of projects that are most time or a lot of the times Unsuccessfully attempting to make the business case for pro-poor land restoration So I wanted to be a bit provocative and set the stage with these questions because I wanted us to Think today of not only ways of how to create the perfect world or the perfect Wishlist of what will be successful in terms of these initiatives, but I want us to focus on the how Exactly how and how can we feasibly create strategies for these land restoration projects to work on the field? So in the time that we have today, we're gonna have a Presentation at the beginning to introduce some of the topics that will be discussing that are based on the brief that you have found on your chairs and then we're gonna have a discussion with our panelists and Interaction also with you to try to answer this very difficult question that we have set out for ourselves So without further ado, I would like to introduce There were both here the director of sole research for the International Center of Tropical Agriculture Please David here and give us an introduction Great, thank you. Thank you. Ivan and welcome everyone to to this afternoon session right after lunch I'm really pleased to see everyone drag themselves away from the coffee the coffee tables to come and be with us this afternoon what we're really trying to do is delve deeper into some of the concepts and Things that were addressed this morning through this very inspiring launch of the 20 by 20 as you know land degradation is not a new issue and it's actually Really exciting that it's one sort of renewed attention now in recent years after more than several decades I would say of neglect and in fact pessimism most of the most of the rhetoric We've been hearing in the recent past is very is very pessimistic. It's very nihilistic There's not really much we can do but but this launch this morning was one example of a much more optimistic view About really being able to tackle these issues of land degradation. I think that part of this Momentum started with the Millennium Ecosystem assessment sort of a beginning of a turnaround in thinking about land degradation and the Ecosystem services that we require from our land kind of broadened the debate about what we're talking about Later came this bond challenge Which set the pattern for defining specific targets for land restoration, especially in forested landscapes More recently the Rio plus 20 drew attention to this idea of a land degradation neutral world Which has now actually found its way into the the draft of the post 2015 sustainable development goals and now the New York most recently the New York Declaration on Forests is is Continuing that trend So everyone in this room is pretty much familiar with the reasons for heightened concern increasing land scarcity increasing foreign direct investment in land because of that scarcity Rising demand for food population pressure on marginal lands deteriorating ecosystem services and so forth We've heard alarming numbers a quarter of the world's surface already degraded 24 billion tons of soil lost to erosion every year the cost of global land degradation reaching $490 billion per year While we're here at the COP 20 to really focus on climate change climate change adaptation and mitigation we believe the greater short-term risks and threats to all of us are these big land use changes land degradation associated with them and You know related to the scope of agriculture increasing urbanization, etc The good news is that as we saw this morning this growing concern is really starting to translate into stronger global commitment To tackle this problem and this in turn is giving rise to action We saw in one in one assessment in 2013 six billion dollars In programs designed to help seven million rural households to manage land sustainably was invested We've heard many examples in the different plan areas and sessions also of the global landscape forum And then we also heard this morning that there's 320 million dollars aligned behind the 20 by 20 very optimistic numbers One thing that's very important about the 20 by 20 the 20 million hectares by by the year 2020 is that it sets quantitative targets by country along the lines of the bond challenge it also features explicit political and financial Commitments, which are essential for reaching the country targets So clearly there's a lot of momentum building and support of this type of initiative and in response to this the Waterland and Ecosystem Program of the Cgir along with the International Center for Tropical Agriculture and many of our partners have embarked jointly with Many to search for ways to ensure that these efforts deliver results that actually meet the expectations of committed governments and financial investors The landscapes we focus on are diverse encompassing crop lands and pastures as well as forests under varying degrees of pressure We're looking not just at the productive capacity of these landscapes or their forest cover, but also their other uses whether for urban water supplies natural resources extraction or cultural purposes and Not only do landscapes vary but so do land restoration efforts There really are no one-size-fits-all solutions, but on the contrary each initiative requires a unique combination of policy financial and science components to assure success and When I say success I mean success in terms of restoring ecosystem services more sustainable crop production and tangible benefits for marginalized groups and women To help get this combination right in any particular case We pose four quick four key questions in our work, and then we use the latest science-based tools and approaches to find the answers First how can we maximize returns on investment? and When I say investment I mean investment of public monies, but also increasingly of private monies Any investment involves uncertainty quite a lot of uncertainty, but science does have ways of reducing Uncertainty the odds that the investments will meet their objectives increasing the odds new modeling tools and participatory approaches allow us to evaluate investment options and Determine which are most likely to boost agricultural productivity Enhanced livelihoods and restore ecosystem services These tools include for example digital soil mapping which now can bring big data into the hands of these smallholder farmers Second what are the best practices? You know whether investments pay off depends on the land use practices that rural people actually adopt What can they adopt? What is the most feasible for them? CGI our centers national research organizations and many others have developed a wide range of Sustainable solutions through decades of research on crops soil land and water and in every region of the developing world This knowledge is an enormously valuable resource For helping choose the best practices in a regional level and in a particular site or landscape Third point whose livelihoods are at stake? Each and every hectare of land that were just promised this morning in the 20 by 20 of the 20 million hectares of land Each hectare of land we're talking about is occupied or used by someone or some entity Each has a stake in land restoration and must therefore be represented in key decisions This is essential for achieving the more equitable sharing of both the benefits and the responsibilities involved in land restoration This in turn requires that we discover who land users are and what resources they have To make information useful for planning. We literally need to put the people and their resources on the map Fourth who decides and how do we ensure accountability as? Governments and investors provide more and more support for large-scale land restoration They need strong assurance that their commitments are achieving the desired results What degree of restoration was achieved? How large are the resulting benefits who captured these benefits? Where the needs of women and marginalized people taken into account in? Order to answer these questions large-scale land-based restoration initiatives need to draw on science-based evidence for decision-making and for building accountability mechanisms These mechanisms can take many different forms, but they should all ensure transparency Making it clear how the effectiveness of the specific investments were was judged and by whom Accountability and transparency are essential for building confidence and confidence is the key for maintaining the commitment of governments investors Development agencies and the rural families whose livelihoods are really at stake And I think the confidence are and also to maintain the optimism that we're all feeling today After after the recent launch we we need to maintain that optimism and move it forward at greater and greater momentum With this is background. I'll turn the discussion back over to Yvonne who will present our panelists. Thank you Thank you very much Deborah for setting the discussions that we're gonna have in a second and for that I would like to invite our panelists to join me here on the chairs on the stage And I would like to start by introducing Walter Vergara who is the senior fellow of the World Resources Institute Please join me up here At the same time I want to introduce Teferra Magnus too with the advisor for the state minister of forest from the Ethiopian Ministry of environment and forest Next I would like to introduce Aloysius Campevara the director of the Department of Environmental Affairs of Malawi's Ministry of Natural Resources energy and environment. I Also have the pleasure of inviting to the panel Leslie Dershinger who is the founder and managing director of Tehran Global Capital and The pleasure is also mine of introducing Alexander Müller a colleague of ours from in Secretary General and the interim of the Institute for Advanced Sustainability Studies ISS in Germany Switch to the microphone now. Thank you very much So now to get started. I would like to do a little quick fire Question session with our panel and I was mentioning at the beginning that we wanted to discuss conditions for success today So I wanted to ask a very short question and I would also very appreciate a very short answer So in two minutes or less When is large-scale land restoration successful? Who would like to volunteer to start? Maybe Walter because you're so far away from me Well, it is successful when the land is restored to improve functionality And I think the elements for success are evident in Latin America. We have a very strong political will that is riding a wind we have Comprehensive number of agencies with the technical knowledge and support Behind the effort that includes Seattle of course and catchy IUCN and WRI And we have the beginnings of a very ambitious architecture for financing financial architecture for land restoration including an effort to bring Equity from the private sector An effort that we are managing to put together risk management tool and long-term financing So if we have these elements together, I think The beginnings of a successful story can be drawn. Thank you Just to answer your question restoration is successful when Physical systems are restoring but also when Economic gains are restoring for from a certain area. So if we manage to get economic return and also if you manage to regain functions Physical biological functions in the system. That's when we say we are restoring very short to me If you look at the ecosystem at the ecosystem level, you ought to have livelihoods because you are whatever you restore You should focus on people's lives And those people need livelihoods. So whatever effort is done, whether by government or Private sector, we should ensure we are securing the livelihoods Thank you. All right Just passing down the line here So the the importance of landscape landscape scale restoration I think the way we view it is it provides a framework to bring together multiple actors when you think about What has to happen to sustainably manage a lot of landscape? You've got governments that are quite important research that's been done financial investors communities SMEs corporate supply chain buyers all of which need to act in some way together to make that happen across a broad Landscape, I think when you look at that you see that change has to happen on multiple scales So you have to have change happening at the highest level with policies and governments that promote the kind of activities That are necessary to create a sustainable landscape But then they have to happen at the very low scales or the low Microscales with small holders having the technical and financial support to actually make The changes and to improve their livelihoods and be motivated to sustain that over the long term So you know sort of net net the importance of of landscape restoration is is that I think it's the way in which we can create environmentally socially and financially sustainable Landscapes and activities particularly important tropical forest countries and countries in which there's been a high degree of land degradation The last one has a real difficulty because a lot of good things have already been said So I would try to come from a different perspective I Would like to define success when large-scale land restoration also contributes to stopping Decretation at all Because what we cannot afford is investing a lot of money in 20 by 20 and other very good initiatives But business as usual is continuing and we are losing a lot of fertile soil and then and and therefore I don't want to see large-scale land restoration as an excuse to continue business as usual And therefore it has to has a real political impact of course additional to improving livelihoods and everything what my colleagues already have said Thank you very much, Alexander And I would like to ask if anybody has anybody Anything to add to this question anybody wants to say two words about what is the importance or when is are these initiatives successful? Not yet, please. We'll take just just one. I just want to have somebody from the audience. Thank you Hi, thanks. My name is Sakila Koketso. I'm with the CBD secretariat So In the context of the CBD we have I see target 15 which aims to restore 15% of degraded Ecosystems by 2020 and so I'd like to congratulate the partners and organizations that were involved in the 20 by 20 initiative in trying to support our parties to Meet this target to restore 15% of degraded ecosystems We looked around at successful programs around the world and we noticed that in South Korea They had the national reforestation program in South Africa. They have the working for water in Brazil they have the bolster both of Verde and Can't remember the others they in Portuguese, but we looked at So we looked at what were the things that made these things work These are large-scale programs. They're driven. There's a lot of Support so we found that for most of them. There's a lot of political support There was a champion and government at higher level of government. They were most of the time accompanied by or accompanied the poverty reduction goals and programs of the government and Just like the to take that this chance to shamelessly plug the outcomes of the study I have brochures that I left outside That show some of the initial results of these three country studies and just to say that by the end of next year We hope to have a global study that looks at all programs across across the world and and definitely would be interested in talking and Sharing the everybody some more right. Thank you so much Thank you so much for the input and I think it's very important that you were mentioning some of these characteristics for success And we heard also from our panel bringing up some of the issues that we heard also this morning and yesterday and how These type of initiatives always have a social and environmental and an economic component And I would like to zoom in on some of these topics and let's start maybe with a political Site and the governance side of these type of initiatives and I wanted to ask them to fair What why do you think these projects were unsuccessful in some cases? Many of them might have been successful But what is different now now that we're seeing many other initiatives being pledged by governments and by different Private investors. What is different now? How can we make things different? Okay, I think in 17s 17s, I was probably Kid, and I don't know Why they were pale, but yeah, let me share that the difference of the existing success from the previous ones In the case of Ethiopia We have very two very important commitments One is the commitment at the ground level which is community participation and The other one is the commitment at political level so the two ends are Committed and there is no reason that the one in between will not be committed So these are very important Commitments which has which has driven the whole process and I guess Once we have commitment from individuals at the ground level as Dibora was indicating for restoration a certain piece of land is Probably owned by a farmer or a pastorist And if a farmer and the pastorist is committed to change that land Then it will continue to work on it and it will be more sustainable Once it has a political support from the whole system so this this is a unique intervention which we are seeing in Ethiopia and It will make it more viable and sustainable. We are confident in that People work for themselves and that's very important. That's what I want to say Thank you very much And how have half of you assess the communication at the different levels of government with the stakeholders at the national level The communication between the communities that you were saying people were working in this projects How has the communication been with the different levels of government? Well there there has been a huge awareness creation program by the government system all the way from starting from the higher level to the ground level and There has been a huge mobilization of technical experts to create awareness and capacity at different level and This was supported by Huge community participation in terms of contributing free level Which is decided by the community themselves like we have 32 60 days commitment by individual True to commit for a for a session program for restoration program per annum and This is kept on schedule every year and Everybody knows that now this is time to do restoration practice So there has been a long lasting commitment and communication in the system and this has triggered very good commitment and success Thank you very much. I wanted to ask one of our panelists More specifically Alexander if you have something to add to this question. I Think we have to face two fundamental challenges The first challenge is that the current economic system does not take into account positive and negative externalities Our colleagues on CBD can tell very interesting stories How poor farmers are custodians and stewards of biodiversity? Which are a global public good and we all benefit from it, but they don't get paid for it And you can destroy natural resources and earn a lot of money get a lot return on investment So the current economic system is one of the key challenges We are facing it in combination with my second key challenge governance systems We do not really have coherent governance systems if we want to tackle Ecosystem services or natural resources in an integrated way. It's very much silo oriented and therefore bringing together People stakeholders from different areas Scientists politicians in order to develop an integrated governance system Maybe based on landscape level. We are at a landscape forum It's the second challenge and I think we have to combine answers to both challenges in order to change it Otherwise, we will continue to invest a lot of money after five years We will see some results, but after 10 15 years We will come back to these sites and we will see that nothing really has changed So we have to combine investments and all these nice activities with fundamental changes in the way We are valuating our ecosystems, which means the economic system and also the question of how we are governing it And this is a very very ambitious approach Thank you very much and as you were mentioning governance maybe we'd stick on the topic a little bit and I would like to ask Aloysius to give us a little contribution and I wanted to ask you because we were here in this morning from the representative of the Colombian ministry in terms of the initiative of 20 by 20 and how political will especially a commitment in a long-term basis can become quite an issue when you're trying to implement one of these large-scale restoration initiatives, so how Reliable do you think political commitment is to these type of initiative and how can we go beyond government structures to create more innovative accountability mechanisms for these type of implementations Well, indeed. This is very important Any successes are going to be built on several elements First of all, it's it's as my colleague indicated governor structures You can have political will And also just as we have hard programs in the past good programs that are implemented You get good results, but no framework So I will give you an example of Like in Malawi. We have the shiro river basin It's a basin from which The whole blunter city is drawing water for drinking and then downstream we have big irrigation farms And also within the catchment area. We have wildlife parks. People do ecotourism and then We also generate our electricity over 90 percent from there. So over time There have been some initiatives that are being implemented on sectoral basis But then we are still facing increasing problems of land degradation. So to tackle this problem Government has committed itself To establish a basin-wide Program and in the structures to ensure sustainability We are thinking of creating a basin authority That is going to provide oversight Not only during the time of the projects, but it is permanent and then This is at high level and at central government level also the regressions to govern The catchment management is embedded But not only that we are looking at the payment for ecosystem services Some of the people mentioned These are services which the ecosystem is providing the water for irrigation for drinking the energy Now we we've created a forum All these beneficiaries the companies private sector NGOs Belong to a forum and we intend to Eventually create a trust whereby We are going to work out a formula these companies Should contribute some funds to put into that trust And that trust I will be linked With the basin authority So that if anybody is deriving Services they have to put something And for the communities that are downstream and upstream because they are the ones managing the catchment area currently because of Poor economic situation you find They're cutting down the trees to make charcoal so at that level What we're intending to do is the manage that are contributed from these beneficiaries should be invested back into those communities And so far we have mobilized all those stakeholders for now about two years We have created a committee that meets regularly And they won't formalize this so that as far as that basin is concerned We should have permanent structures so If any government comes regardless of the political ideas they have they have to operate within those structures And those structures should be at all levels central But also communities must participate so The payment for ecosystem services. We are trying to operationalize that scheme Currently we have appointed an NGO to kind of broker Between the companies and the communities because most of the time the communities don't have a voice So we are trying to create structures in such a way that they should have a voice For their developments, but also income generating activities so that whatever is is benefit Or derived from the resources it should be invested back for their benefit Thank you very much. Aloysius. I just wanted to let you know that if you have any particular very brief question directed Direct to the comments being by made by the panelists. I might allow one or two While we're having the panel discussion. So just don't be afraid to put your hand up if you have something to add and Now moving maybe a little bit away from policy And political will maybe we can talk a little bit about the environmental aspect of land restoration project Oh, you had one. Please. Yeah. Can we get a microphone here? Please in the front A gentleman from the press if I see your batch correctly. Oh, there we go Microphone here, please. Please be very brief Hi, thank you. My name is Julian Mulrojack. I write for manga bay I wanted to ask what you see as the kind of knowledge gaps in Moving forward with landscape restoration and how how can we help address those? Okay. Um, thank you. Is there anybody that would like to start with that? Maybe Leslie. Do you want to address that question? Please don't say no to me Sure, could I just tie it into my fancy question you have for me because I think they're related I have several questions for you. You do Well, I will address that question and then you can decide how to run the penalty one. Um, I would say that First the perspective that that we're coming from is is how do we bring more commercial capital to landscape restoration? And the 2020 event before sort of showcased the you know different investors that are trying to find ways to put money to work So that's my perspective. So when I think about knowledge In doing that job our job is to try to bring capital that benefits both the countries and the communities and the landscapes The knowledge gap has to do with the fact that this is new It's highly risky and unless we can overcome and most of these countries of many investors. Haven't even heard of so for us being able to Demonstrate the commercial viability Of activities within the landscape restoration process and being able to deploy capital to be able to attract more capital That may not be exactly the knowledge gap you were looking for but that's the gap that we see That's the challenge that we face daily and trying to bring more funds to to to to landscape restoration Thank you. Um, alexander wanted to add something like that to that maybe then aloe show and then we go with valger. Okay I think there are different levels of knowledge gaps From an investor's perspective the question is how to ensure return on investment If you turn it around from the perspective of small-scale farmers The question is what do we have to do that they really benefit from it? In the end it has to be linked that you are happy with the return in investment and the farmer says also for me It has a lot of benefits and therefore The question of knowledge gaps is very very broad and I think we can only address them If we bring the people together to decide what kind of additional knowledge do we need But not waiting for taking action until research has provided The the the latest results of their research So it's an ongoing process where you have to monitor right from the beginning are the right people benefiting from restoration of landscapes What should be the focus? My personal guess is if you talk about land rehabilitation You have to go far beyond land you have to look at livelihoods of people of water biodiversity So you have to have an integrated approach and this can only be done at a local level Where all stakeholders meet and to an analysis is the situation really improving under all these perspectives And maybe just in addition Where I see from my experience A big gap is also the trust Most of the programs are driven by government or maybe in duos and the communities are left So you find that Yes, although the people maybe are participating they don't have much trust To involve themselves fully so we need to reach a point where we build a lot of trust By integrating the expert knowledge, but also the indigenous knowledge they have because most of the time we bring Okay, landscape restoration So we think we have more ideas than them, but they do have a worth of information And also other practices So what would be important would be to map out the best practices which they have And infuse them with The expert knowledge So that should be the recipe to move and in that way we can build trust and by also talking to them creating the the forum For networking discussions and all that opening the dialogue with them. Thank you Do you have any particular examples of where that has worked? Do you have any one particular example of where that has worked the integration of the knowledges? Yes also in the the Shira river basin In fact two weeks ago we had a symposium We had the ability to say anybody who has anything to do from a scientific perspective But and also local knowledge So we mix all these together people discussing and also to explain To the people to say, okay. We we know the services which the basin provides So what do people suggest we should do what? Do they suggest government should do so we clearly that forum, but also on a regular basis We do have committees at the much sexual At central level, but also in the communities So we have appointed for now because the basin authority is not established state But we have appointed an NGO which is like acting As a broker between the communities and the Commercial entities that are exploiting the resources there So we hope that we are going to refine these ideas and build a framework Where the communities participate continuously and then engage each other as they develop the basin Okay, thank you very much. Tadda you want to add something? Well, I I think technical and technological packages for restoration are locality specific What is required to to make these Packages more sustainable is first Mechanism to make this restoration efforts more competitive In terms of economic return is is very important So giving value for resources Value addition practices All those practices are very important the other thing is We have to provide incentives Incentives starts from proper valuation of the effort itself Like in Ethiopia. We we certify communities. We certify individuals For their efforts in achieving good practices at household level at landscape level And this is an incentive just recognition But beyond that we have to also properly value What has been done in terms of capital both natural capital And that's very important linkage and that has to be accounted at household level and it should be also accounted at national level Once we establish this system, then we know that these landscapes are valuable systems Not not only for their own function, but also for people We're doing an economic analysis WRI would see it and Kathy to look at the economic aspects of land restoration and Even though the results are not yet public It's very clear that there is a very strong economic case for land restoration And we see that in the commitments by some of the countries in Latin America I assume some of you were at the lunch this morning Why do you think some of those countries are saying we're going to restore millions of hectares? They are doing it out of their own benefit Because they realize that in order to continue to have food production to improve the livelihoods of rural populations to maintain their biodiversity Water and soil and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. This needs to be done Do you think the government of Mexico is going to wait for us to put some money? For them to start. No, they are putting their own money. They have as Large projects already on the ground What we need to do and this is the emphasis of 20 by 20 Is to bring this noble capital that makes the system Makes a springboard to the applicator force. That's why we're bringing impact investors like Leslie like moringa Like altilia. What are they going to do? They are going to invest in those resources that are noble to realize those economic benefits It won't happen alone We are very intent in putting together a risk management structure A risk management structure will allow Leslie to say, okay, this is risky Leslie, you correct me. This is risky. There is a novelty risk. There is a technology risk There is a capacity risk in rural areas I'm willing to put some money into this But I'm more willing to do it if I can cover my first loss This is what we want to do We are going to put together a mechanism that will absorb the first loss. My final point 20 by 20 is a bottom-up approach. I don't think Global goals will work without the willingness at the local level to do this This is the secret of 20 by 20. Is the aggregation of national programs that were already being developed? What we have done really and don't tell anybody Is that we've put all those aspirations together? So this is a national Program. They are not responding to a global Request they are doing this because it's in their own Benefit I have a few more points, but maybe later You can make them also later, but I wanted to ask you Walter Maybe don't give up the microphone so fast Because I wanted to ask you you were mentioning that I wanted to convince Leslie to invest for example But Leslie was mentioning in the launch of the initiative 20 by 20 But that she needs clear indicators simple indicators to measure That land restoration is taking place and she needs a monitoring system. Right. How can we provide that for her? Okay 20 by 20 one of the components is precisely this effort We're structuring regional monitoring effort that has three components remote sensing with the most advanced satellite observation and Flight observation systems available today With on-the-ground sampling and modeling This package will vary from country to country But we are intent with the assistance of seer Kathy and IUCN and I don't I keep repeating that not because my friends are here But because this is what is going to take place We are going to replicate this program country by country when we go We went to Mexico two weeks ago the first thing that they said was exactly that How do you help us to monitor what we are going to restore? And this is Part of the solution. We are going to help them through WRI and our partners to set up this monitoring Program and the technology has advanced so much because of monitoring Have decreased so much that this is not Nothing is not by in the sky, but in addition to that You also need an effort to support the economic analysis Because Leslie will be more enticed to put their money If we have a good financial case and a good economic case The good economic case serves the Goldman decision to support this program Because it reversing a lot of benefits and the financial case will help Leslie to put their money So we are going to support that and finally We are also doing Something that has been tried in the past But it's very useful and it's a south south Sharing of experiences. There are so many things taking place in latin america. If I could have time I would tell you about it, but there is a large for instance Rewildering effort in patagonia That is I think more cost effective than the one being tried in europe Well, this experience can be shared and we are going to finance the sharing of experience south to south with the help of these guys And now that you're pointing to these guys I wanted to give the war maybe the microphone We have the honor of having ideas from the convention of biological diversity, please Thank you I went to Explore an observation that alexander made About trying to restore degraded land and ecosystems while a lot of degradation is still happening For example, if we look in an analogy the issue of threatened species a lot of Well-intended projects to reintroduce threatened species failed miserably Because we didn't deal with the threats the threats were still there So we wasted a lot of money reintroducing species and then they went extinct locally again So do we know well enough why We do have This amount of degraded lands out there So to what extent this is a responsibility of bad public policies or market pressures that encourage farmers to blow in marginal lands that are not resilient to crop farming for example, or to what extent this is related to heritage systems and land tenure that Leads to smaller and smaller properties which are Doesn't allow for Rotation of land use and things like that. So do we know do we have a good? diagnosis of really the driving forces for land and ecosystem degradation To make sure that we do tackle these as we propose large-scale restoration Thank you. And before I let the panel answer that question, I have a question back to you The aichi target number 15 right Is trying to aim for at least the at least a restoration of 15 percent of degraded ecosystems How do you think does that help Integrating these initiatives into the contribution for that target? No, totally. Totally. But we we've faced the same challenges. For example, the Governments under the CBD agreed with the at target 15 to restore at least 15 percent of degraded ecosystems by 2020 But the countries were not precise to define the baseline Or how to do it So it's a challenge and I believe We we we we have a chance to to meet this if we Bring together all these different initiatives, right? But I think we need to be more strategic to really promote the large scale So I think there's a lot of good initiatives at small scale But the the challenge is really how to upscale and what are the real Good strategies to promote that To be effective, but certainly it's the itch target 15. It's certainly part of this discussion. Thank you Great great reference also to the how And the upscaling that we can touch upon that later on the panel. Did you have any particular responses to the intervention? Otherwise, I think I had one here. Yes Also, please very brief here in the front I'd just like to take a bit of a skeptical viewpoint here I've been working with degraded lands since the 1980s And there are biophysical limits to what you can do. You do cross thresholds Getting vegetation to grow is easy getting good quality vegetation to grow is not so easy Soil organic carbon is a very slow variable building it back up is difficult once you've lost it Is it really that that cost effective to invest in rehabilitating graded lands? Or would it be more cost-effective to avoid to invest in avoiding the degradation to start with and india's losing What a hundred thousand hectares a year to water logging and salamization because they're over pumping their aquifers The the conno planes are just washing into lake victoria You know, what if we started investing in in Places that we're losing the land and stop the degradation rather than putting lots and lots of money into these these already degraded areas Where it's very difficult to recover Good intriguing question. I think welter has a direct response to that. This is an excellent question under 20 by 20 One of the goals is to avoid degradation in five million hectares of critical habitat That's been threatened. So as part of the entire process We have an emphasis on avoiding degradation So you're absolutely right that would be most cost effective, but there are other areas that are also cost effective For instance in colombia, there are 20 million hectares of land that are dedicated to extensive cattle ranching The goal of colombia has a vision long term Which we intend at least to capture partially Where some of that land will revert to forest cover that area In an area that is that has a vocation for forest The process to do that Is complex But well designed if it is well designed and well undertaken and given the enough time it can be achieved And another section of those 20 million hectares by the ministry of agriculture will be dedicated to make The cattle raising operations more effective More productive in a smaller amount of land So that you can liberate land that will prevent degradation that you won't go into pristine forests or Wild grasslands to expand your economic activities. So I 100% agree with you This is the practical way to go. Let's put a lot of emphasis on avoiding damage, which is the most cost effective But there are a number of opportunities where We have to restore And we are cognizant of the fact that land is degraded at different levels So You go from step to step You are not going to take dry savannah in the province of cordova in colombia Compacted and degraded and how it restore The level that the chinu indians had For centuries ago, but there are steps that can be taken to improve land functionality that will be cost effective Thank you. Thank you. Walter and thank you for the question and setting up priorities Is definitely one of the main things that we need to discuss and that brings us back also to one of the points from Deborah's presentation on For whom are we doing this? Of course, we're talking about it from an environmental perspective But this also has a very strong social component and on that basis we heard this morning Also from the representative of the government of mexico that most Farmers in mexico are actually working with land that is under five hectares of space So with a fragmentation System that is in place in that way Alexander, how about for you? How can we ensure that large-scale land restoration actually contributes to social inclusion? But also to secure in the livelihoods of the poorest and the most marginalized groups in society From my perspective, we have to ensure right from the beginning That large-scale land degradation is not leading to a situation where poor people will be kicked off their land and Other people are investing in land. We have learned the lessons since 2007 2008 when the high food prices and the financial crisis led to a complete change in the economics of land land The the value of land has increased a lot and therefore we have to ensure right from the beginning that I don't want to call it social inclusiveness. This has to be driven by the communities Otherwise we are coming to a situation where maybe we are doing the wrong land restoration From an agricultural point of view land with low productivity has to be rehabilitated From a biodiversity point of view this land could have high values from biodiversity And this will be very complex to be assessed by indicators and therefore we have to have The communities on board right from the beginning to decide how to restore Who should benefit from it and when I raised the question of risk management We have really to align interests there We have to come to a situation where restoration of land is good for Leslie because she earns the return on investment But also at the same time good for the people on the ground if we don't do it in this way We will come to a situation where the conflicts might increase and Let's not be naive land restoration is also an area where there will be a lot of conflicts There are competing interests the question of water availability who has access to land and and and this can only be done if you have Really solid institutional settings and you have involvement of the stakeholders right from the beginning Otherwise we will have a discussion in five years and we will Analyze why things are not it did not work really very well So this is for me a condition right from the beginning involvement of the stakeholders To ensure the right way of restoration and to ensure that there are benefits for all that Leslie gets her money back And some interest rates, but people on the ground improve their their livelihoods Thank you. Um, do you have something particular directly to that? Well Yeah, I have a couple things to say that would be great because that's actually an important question Can we make a business case for the for poor? Land or poor pro-poor land restoration. Is that a thing? Yeah, and and we have seen that absolutely You can not all landscape restoration activities are going to be commercially viable and that and knowing which ones are Identifying those and being able to support others with other sources non commercial sources of funding is quite key It's really interesting to hear alexander talk about The involvement of communities because for any investor That is absolutely the first thing the what what I would call the alignment of interest What people that write about this call equity? But equity is not the kind of equity we think about it's very interesting the word equity does not equal equity The word investment does not equal investment. So when we think about the the ways in which commercial Commercial funds can flow to those types of landscape restoration activities that they're suitable for It it starts with the fact that We need to invest in places where we can combine income streams So we're combining income streams that include generally smallholder agriculture non-timber forest products Sometimes sustainable forestry and and emission reductions and finding ways to do that And ensuring the food security is still there and improved Um and and being able to structure the transaction in a way that interests are aligned Because if they're not the investment is very high high risk Some of the other things that we look for in in being able to bring capital to landscape restoration Is the involvement of governments without the involvement of government sometimes it's A very direct involvement where investments go through quasi government entities that have been set up I've had the pleasure to work in Malawi and we actually have a Invest an entity that's set up and and investable that is partially owned by the government and partially owned by the community Association for some work around three of the protected areas there So the importance of integrating the governments into it again They may be direct participants of the investment They may they need to definitely be supporting the investment and oftentimes they can facilitate that investment A couple other things that we're seeing as I As everyone wants to talk about landscape restoration and red and climate smart agriculture The reality is all those things are part of creating sustainable landscapes So without mincing the words for us. We also think it's important to be able to leverage This interim finance that we're seeing with results based payments that are being paid for emission reductions particularly in countries that have Have engaged with the carbon fund have engaged with red early movers are engaging with the the new ISFL because those Transactions can help bring new funds in because it can actually lower the risk for people that are investing investors that are investing So that's another thing and then two other sort of catalyzing things that allow us to invest in in landscape restoration One is Really we've already talked about this very strong partnerships with local organizations and community groups and the ability to aggregate small Holders in a way that we can put money together on the kind of scale We need to but also leveraging the local and adapting the local financing instruments small scale micro finance Development small scale development bank finance local financial institutions that can bring additional capital to small holders and and also providing the technical Assistance to help those small holders make an informed decision about whether or not they actually want to take on that kind of debt Which is quite important and and then Not necessarily Specific to a particular country's investment But also finding ways to deploy some of the great great risk mitigation Instruments that are out there so that our fund in investing in Malawi or Ethiopia or any of the countries we're looking at Guatemala That we can lower risk for investors and make a compelling case and that includes things like the usa id a debt guarantee It's called the dca program that they've just come out with recently That that provides a huge amount of risk reduction to investors Using opics political risk insurance, which we deployed for the first time for a red Project that we invested in which lowers the the country risk associated with investments So when we look at it Those are sort of the things that we see obviously each one of the things we invest in has to generate a return That's another thing. So it has to generate a return between 10 and 25 Depending on what the risk is of that. So hopefully that answers some of your question I Well, I think water has a very direct response to that and then we're going to bring it back to the audience We have a question here in the front. Maybe the microphone slowly Yes Why is it that we are not yet working with Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan, but with terra bella and moringa And artillery is precisely because of your question Because we are placing a premium on those impact investment funds that associate themselves with the local communities Maybe in the future all these other companies will see the light and will do the same But 20 by 20 is associating itself with input investors precisely It's the answer that leslie gave to you and that that makes the difference for us when when we see when we say private capital We are seeing private capital that mixes with the local equity the social local equity In in the rural areas Well, I would be very interested what is the role of land rights in in your 20 Times 20 program because in a former life I was involved a lot in in setting up you and rat and one of the key issues was land rights in areas where you have Traditional land rights The comments How are you going to deal with it because this is also a risk risk minimizing instrument for investments But that's also very very important for For the farmers that they are willing to take the risk and that they are really that they can really invest And and we know that we have many areas in the world where land rights are very insecure Very low access to land for women and and so how are you going to deal with it? Sorry moderator Well, that's an excellent question I remember that 20 by 20 Is an effort to change the dynamics of land degradation Don't focus on the 20 million hectares. Well, you can focus on it as the first step But this is a long-term vision. So it would be silly of us To get into an area where there is a lot of conflict where land is in dispute to start this process No, you have to create trust and confidence. And I think that what will happen on the ground is that Moringa and Altilia and terravela and others will be attracted to areas where these Basic enabling conditions are being worked out and we are willing to help when we say will look at you guys Seattle and Kathy and IOC and All of us as a group are willing to help to put those enabling conditions together But it would be silly to start in an area where there are no land rights I have to make a comment. I'm sorry I love this question all the time because It is I think there's a perception That land tenure is a barrier to investment and of course, but but there are some places where it is But investment can actually Support land tenure. Not only the securing of land tenure. I can we have operated in five or six different tenure schemes Most of which are either co-management and Malawi's co-management is the legal framework in which we operate In uh, Cambodia. It's community forestry in zanzibar. It's community forestry And the beauty of that is one some of the investment dollars go to actually helping secure that so if the process isn't complete It usually has to be pretty close to complete and clearly we don't get involved in areas where it's what you can't do that But then once you have international investment and some of the technology that's used to monitor that the kinds of things We use to monitor. We use a spatial explicit nested monitoring Once you have that the level of transparency Goes up and when you then register an emission reduction program on there It becomes a little bit hard to change your mind about tenure Because all the documents have supported that what I mean is is that if a government were To try to reverse the land tenure that's been granted or not to honor that we have all the satellite images We have all the documents. We have everything and with the push of a button You can see I'm sitting in san francisco, california or wherever you want to be sitting. So anyway, I love the question I know you would cheat that up for me thank you leslie we have um Probably a contribution maybe directly to that from the audience and then we're going to take up a couple more questions Hi, thanks chair. My name is yes. I'm with the iss and equally I feel equally engaged leslie with the point that you just made as you felt when you made your point Because sort of talking about large-scale land investments What we have seen is that the majority of these investments go exactly in those areas where governments is extremely poor So with the the the case that you've painted is the rather positive case the large-scale analysis of irresponsible land investments is unfortunately Exactly the opposite On my question that I had I would like to start over the question that our colleagues from siad have put forward Which is whose livelihoods are at stake and I have in this respect a question and a concern My question actually is on the financial architecture Of 20 by 20 and the business case behind i'm i'm perfect I trust wri and coming up with a famous sort of cost-benefit analysis of that However, having worked in the brazilian amazon with small hoarders and sort of the the effort that this implies in actually restoring Landscapes I do have serious doubts regarding the transaction costs that are implied when you actually make these large-scale Rehabilitation efforts work for small hoarders and you yourself walter mentioned the monitoring costs involved So my concern with this large-scale rehabilitation is Isn't then because of the investment Rates on return that leslie has mentioned and the monitoring costs for example to give one example of transaction cost that you have Referred to isn't then large-scale and restoration something that has the high risk of ending up in large-scale projects That it leads exactly the small who is behind because of the challenges that sort of investing in small hoodies has thank you Thank you. We have a direct. Let's take the the second question here and the fourth row and then we can pass it on to walter to answer Bert de vier from con de sand water and catchment area and Actually a little bit related I think I would like well degradation can have different degrees no there is moderately degraded land and severely degraded land and Completely lost land or bad lands or whatever you want to call it So what what kind of mechanisms or incentives can we build into this kind of program so that we don't forget No, don't leave aside the worst of the worst I think where we can probably have Marginal benefits, which is very important for the society. You know if we go If we go for restoration of agriculture probably When we go into the field at the end we will go for the little bit less degraded So where we have a chance of building up some success In terms of production of agriculture or forestry or whatever, but how do how do we really include the worst lands? Thank you, um walter and then de ferra. Okay. Do you have your microphone? Yes, again, a very interesting question You cannot generalize, but I'll give you a couple of examples Um, you are right in that uh small holders high transaction costs difficult approach Huge risk and so forth. I've spoken already about This new instrument that we're trying to structure that will absorb those costs. So if Altilia climate Goes to an area of the amazon Brazil you mentioned where the transaction costs make it impossible to get a successful outcome Then this instrument will absorb some of those costs, but let me give you two positive examples In mexico the national program of drylands conasa, you know Well the national program of dry areas is focused on small holdings And what they are doing is economies of scale is amazing But what they want to do in terms of recovering of those dry lands is bringing equipment That will help technologies that will help them record some of the vegetation core and they move the equipment from Landholder to landholder. So no one pays the equipment Totally and everybody Contributes Seems a magnificent example. I've seen photographs of what they are intending to do and the results are very interesting With the right technology moving from plot to plot. You can really see a regrining quickly The other example that I have for you is bosque's modelo ronnie is here. No ronnie ronnie no Rony del camino has this program. He's the president of bosque's modelo Which is a program for small farming for small rural areas And what he has optimized is the deal the business deal with small landholders and they are They are confident enough to Propose a goal of 1.6 million hectares of restore land and this is by no means small Large areas. No, these are relatively small So these are two examples, but I agree with you in the genetic comment. It's difficult Smaller areas more difficult cause higher For the you'll have to ask ronnie Somebody go get ronnie, please Okay, um, I would like to Say that how first of all, how do we value Restoration in order to to say this is visible or worth investing I think we have to first look into the value of restoration Two points one when we restore degraded lands and when when we start Supporting livelihood in degraded lands It is not only the product and service from the degraded lands themselves, but also We protect non degraded lands not to be degraded Because if those degraded lands are not restored and they don't support any livelihood The alternative is people will move to Additional areas and further degradation will continue. So we have to account there The other thing is some countries some areas they cannot afford Living those lands degraded forever. It's impossible And we have to do something and we have to grab opportunities As they provide be it Minimum or maximum We have to do something. We know ecological processes are gradual, but We have to we we have seen that it is possible to make livelihood also Not just by exploiting the soil resources Or the the biological resources there, but also doing alternative activities in the system So we have to capitalize on that The last point which I want to make on the monitoring is When we are monitoring Restoration efforts in the landscape We have We need to have three layers. The first one is The achievement in terms of physical gains Vegetation cover changes soil property changes and others And we have to also account Functional gains in the system, which includes also biodiversity gains So we have to establish Baseline and also we have to monitor and look into the changes in function in hydrology In Ethiopia, we have seen changes in Spring development after restoration of the great lands and this is very important But the last point which you have to account is also Change in the livelihood system So we need to do MRV For livelihood MRV for functions of ecosystem MRV for physical systems. Thank you Thank you very much. Um, so now we have 15 minutes left for the discussions But first let me ask you to stand up, please for a second everybody stand up stand up stand up We have to wake up one big stretch I promise 50 more minutes. This is it one big stretch 50 minutes stretch Let's uh, thank you Thank you. Let's sit down. So, um for these last bit of the discussion I would like to come back to our initial question And if you remember our panel at the beginning lay out some of the main Criteria that we want to have for successful large-scale restoration projects And you were mentioning that we need to ensure that land is restored that the ecosystem is made good again Basically that we need to ensure livelihoods that the governance system is in place and everybody gets their return back So we know what we need to ensure and I want you to think now Uh about the how let's focus on these strategies. How can we make that happen on the field? And while I give you a second to think about that my colleagues from Seattle have asked me Uh to take you know one of these very complex questions And I want to give you the opportunity to have a very black and white response So it's going to be a yes or no response and everybody has a little card color cards on their chairs Sure, you've seen them and um I would like to ask you that while we're discussing the the how for the last bit of the discussion That you write down your answer to the question Is large-scale land restoration the way to go? Is this the right solution for sustainable landscape management? Yes or no, please write yes or no on your card and why? So very short answers and then our colleagues from Seattle Abby and Martina will be very nice to pick up and collect the cards and post them there So while you do that, let's get back to the panel and um, let's start with the how maybe Aloysius We haven't heard from you for a little bit Yes Yeah, the how Definitely, it's a Very critical question Because this is where we can fail or succeed Uh, but as we have been discussing here We need to know First What is it we are dealing with? and to be focused Who who is involved? And then we should identify champions because if you are doing these things in a vacuum Nobody becomes responsible, but I think in any system or the landscape where we are working We should identify The champions These are champions from the public sector Government sector As well as other institutions and the communities who are actually the drivers of these processes And then we should also look what the policy aspects Whatever we do, uh, must be enshrined in in the Policies because any good actions that we do if there's no policy framework Then they cannot stay very long so to provide guidance to governments That are existing and also those to come All these must be enshrined in in good policy so that The results we get can be sustainable, but also we should look at Building resilience because most of the times we have Uh done efforts Very successful for one year two years then it collapses. So we should ensure that Uh In short term we have to do things like in short term and those in long term We should also have those long term perspectives Okay, well, I think I can answer this question relatively easily because Capital markets will do their job if they can make a return. It's pretty cold and hard and harsh But the reality is is that there's enough money out there that if landscape restoration could provide attractive risk adjusted returns Money will flow. So that part will will happen. But for that to happen Um, what is critical is to have both national and local You know investable environments the conditions to make an investment and those can be very high level national conditions meaning That regulations are in place to bring in international investment But it also could include very local local that allow for community tenure to be secured tracking and governance The other thing is is that I think being able to get good information on the um operational risk And the financial costs and returns So all of the great research and piloting that is done and making that available easily available So that when we look for capital markets to come in and bring bring money They can they can make a wise or an informed decision not necessarily wise but you know informed decision And then the other thing is a willingness to engage I think, you know, I I come from the private sector. I call for the evil world of wall street I've been at it long enough that I can almost stop saying that but And I still feel I don't today, which is wonderful But I still feel sometimes you like oh your private sector Well, you've got you got to have something that's not good in mind So really the willingness to engage because we want to build trust we absolutely want to build trust I mean you look at half of the money that's out there No private sector firms like seriously they're being deployed for development purposes So we really hope to build the trust and to be able to engage And have an open dialogue about how to make it work for all the stakeholders involved So those are the things we'd like to help be part of making making it happen Um, I would like to hear a little bit more on the how Leslie on the building trust But then maybe we can come back to you for that one Tefra and then and after that we're going to have some interactions with the audience Okay On the how I want to say three things one is commitments at different level And the other one is incentive and as I said this incentive is starts from recognition The last one is value addition of products Which are produced from restoration efforts and if we make this All possible it's possible to have good restoration efforts in the landscape Okay, how we have three elements and I told you a little bit about them at the beginning And the first one is that people want to do it The columnist want to do it. So this has to be a bottom up approach We are working with Mexico and Peru and Colombia and Guatemala And Chile and Ecuador because they want to do it We are not going to convince them from outside that this is the way to go They have their own programs. They are putting their own money. They're putting their own resources So as the first one you have to work with those that want to do it Number two is to bring the capital and the financing structure And I already told you we had this vision of the three elements Equity what we want to emphasize private sector because the golden badges are already committed To a risk management structure and three long term development with the local development banks That's the second part bring the financing And the third one is to help these governments to as Some of you in the panel said before overcome the barriers There are a number of barriers that need to be tackled and this is why this Partnership of agencies are working on the monitoring part on the training and technical part on the economic analysis part We will only be successful if we can bring together better livelihoods for people Especially the poor with improving ecosystem services And there I fully agree we need capital and we need private sector But we also need good regulation for it Especially after the world financial crisis We can see that capital markets and return of investments per se is not a guarantee for improving livelihoods Billions of people are still paying for the risks of the financial markets And therefore we have to also talk about what are the conditions under which we can really use Private capital and under which we have responsible investments and here. I think we are very close I have looked before the the session on your website and I can see a lot of these things to it so Bringing together the different interests, but clearly based on Objectives I think this this is the real question and one size doesn't fit all We know that in different areas of the world we have different Things to do and the big advantage of these large-scale investment Debate is that we are raising awareness Soils have not received the attention they deserve Souls were forgotten at the international agenda very often at the national agenda And this is a big advantage and making also clear that restoring land costs a lot of money could be a contribution To stop the drivers of deforestation, but it needs political will and it needs the right investment there Thank you, alexander We're going to take some inputs from the audience And I see my colleagues are also um already picking up the the cards So if you can pass them on to them with the answers to the question I will take the first question. Please here in the front. So we need a microphone And then we'll take the one here in the back a microphone, please Microphone oh por favor Thank you. Thank you Um, I have no doubt that the private investment is needed to Tackle some of these serious Did you introduce yourself? I'm so sorry Miguel Pinedo C4 and colombia university and also from the amazon Um, I'm saying that's no doubt about the private investment Might play a big role in dealing with the environmental issues that are facing And I would like to hear from the private sector. However Is how we can start thinking about investment Moving from just focusing profit going more into welfare Thank you Thank you very much. Uh, and then the second question here in the back. There we go. Yes, please there Hi, I'm Julia. I'm from south pole group If I'm not mistaken The ball the ball challenge is going to be Like one one hundred fifty millions of vectors by 2050 And we we know about the initiative about 2020 So I would like to know the future step to achieve this challenge About the bond challenge and we are we are talking about the implementation of the project, but what about the the Monitoring and which institution or organization will ensure that this restoration is going to be Well down So it's going to be sectorial or Governmental So I would like which is the role of the private sector in this implementation. Thank you Thank you. We're going to take one more all the way in the back, please Or maybe maybe two more Hi, I'm Ken Andrasco from wind rock international formerly world bank Um, my question is this is an incredibly interesting panel lots of nuances in detail But to achieve the kind of scale we're looking for from the private sector I think we need to deconstruct private sector investment and role into its many many parts People tend to think of very large investments from large firms But in fact there could be roles providing financial services or producing inputs to agriculture like Realizers or concessional prices all kinds of things So how can we move forward to somehow find the way to deconstruct the private sector role into its many parts and get the right people talking Thanks Thank you. Um, I think we're going to take Maybe one two comments from the panel. Um And then I'll ask my colleagues from see it if they are more or less ready with the Wrap up with the cards abby and martina. Yes. I'm talking to you Hi And after two interventions from the panel, then I would ask you to give us a little comment on the results of our little survey Thank you for the questions. Um, all of them with some Some link to private sector the first one How can we move private sector from profit to welfare? So I would never I mean working in this sector is hard enough So I would never be able to believe that I could change capital markets from a profit based motive But that said Private sector firms that understand the sector and are committed to the sector for the long term We'll look at welfare for the very selfish reason is if welfare isn't Maintained improved considered an absolutely integral part of any investment The risk is way too high So the way we see that is that yes, we have certain financial hurdles that we have to make But if the The investment isn't well aligned with communities and their welfare is not at the center of the design And the center of the way in which uh returns are generated back to them It's way too high a risk investment. So it's not a direct. It's an indirect but Like I said anyone that operates in the sector invest in the sector has to that knows anything will do that I think the second question in the back Um, I don't know that it's necessarily a private sector question I think clearly if I if I understood you you were talking about making sure that this is done properly, you know And um, I think it's all of our jobs to make sure it's done properly It's our job to make sure that our investment structures reward those who actually produce the returns We also have to make sure we make a return for the capital that's coming from our investors But I would say and I'd like, you know to have you guys offer that, you know, governments have a role NGOs have a role all all of us have a role So I mean I've punt that question down the right row there And can thank you can always has the most thought-provoking questions and you are absolutely right And in fact the the very The beautiful thing is private sector is actually here today. We actually get to come and sit here This is great. This has only been in the last couple years that that otherwise we were in a little room over there, right? And you you are right that there are multiple private sectors I'm speaking from the standpoint of a private equity investor But you have SMEs that are in country very important You have small holders that are making investments every day You have corporate supply chain buyers that are making investments of sorts You have people that are willing to buy emission reductions unbelievably so So I think can you're right and if we I think more when we have more and more panels on engaging private sector that segmentation that you brought up and being able to understand how each sub sector of the private sector Can engage and actually facilitate landscape restoration is is key Because you point out a very good thing. So I'll turn it over to others with that You can you can pass it on and um, Aloysius you do you have a comment? Yeah, just a small one. Um, as she indicated This should be a partnership. We have government on one side So if there are social causes social risks because the company cannot take those This is where maybe once we do the risk assessment Those things which a private company cannot take I think that's the social response below of government to take those And then the the company will focus on where the return can come But to the extent that we are building resilience In terms of climate change we we can't be doing this without knowing that we are reducing um We are reducing the risk So if it's for three years, yes, we will invest with the risk But with confidence that by the end of the three years you have reduced The risk other than just operating in a in a in a situation where you don't know you are reducing the risk or Maybe you are making Okay, I have Um, it's actually the coffee break that is starting and I just wanted to yeah I know you you do not want to get in the middle of people and coffee. Alexander. So um, I am sure though For that one for the next time and I just wanted to give a minute to our colleagues from the water landscape Land water ecosystems program to say um few words and what were the results of our survey? So we've posted them there you can see there's an overwhelming amount of yes Uh, but we have a lot of yes with conditional statements. So yes If scalable yes, if we look enough at livelihoods. Yes, if we focus on ecosystem services So we put them there so you can go and kind of see we had a few nos It causes over generalization. Uh, there were some other concerns that you can see posted there We wanted to read one out that we thought was particularly interesting Um, I believe so, but I disagree with the focus on financial returns from restoration efforts as with red plus The market will look for the most profitable investments Which in almost all cases will exclude the most marginalized communities and likely providing perverse incentives for land grabbing So anyways, we thought we'd read one. Uh, please go over there and see see what some of the other responses were Thank you. Thank you very much And I think that if anything we are left with a lot of questions to answer and a lot of um research tasks For these particular topics. So I know that um, our colleagues will have a lot to do in the next Years to try to answer some of these questions And I just wanted to really quickly thank the waterland and ecosystems program and see it for putting together this event And I want to thank you very much our panelists and our audience for your wonderful contributions and inputs And uh, like Abby said go ahead and have a look at the survey. So thank you very much and please enjoy coffee break