 Welcome back to PLOS Politics. Former President Toulouche Gourbassonji has stated that President Mohammad Buhari needs to meet with Namdi Khanu, the leader of the indigenous people of Biafra. IPOB, before the insecurity crisis in the southeast, gets out of hand. The former president disclosed that there was nothing wrong in Buhari having a meeting with Khanu. He added that he would want to meet Khanu himself in order to talk to people like him, to know his worries and other variables. What are your worries? The former president pointed out also that the army's tough response to pro-Biafra sentiments is not the solution. And joining us to discuss this, we have Bill Dounchoumi, a political analyst and Terence Kwanam, a security expert. But just before we get into that conversation, we want to of course speak with a plus-TV reporter who's currently live in Iqoyi, where there seem to be some new developments over there, the collapsed building. Thanks for joining us. Zika, can you hear us? Yeah, I can hear you. Hold on, Mr. Kwanam. Okay, so give us a quick break of what's going on over there. Yes, hold on, Mr. Kwanam and Mr. Shoumi. Um, can you hear us? Yes, I can hear you. Go ahead, please. Let's hear you. What exactly is going on in Iqoyi at the moment? Okay, just a few minutes ago, the work at the site of the BDT and we believe that Mr. Fadi Dahan, the BDT, the developer of that structure has been found and his body has been taken out of the site. Okay, so... That was happening there right now. And it shows that the work has stopped. And some families are still looking for their people that are keeping all complainants, that immediately the body was found, the workers were working. So what you are saying is... What you are saying is that the body of the developer of that property, Femio Shibona, has been found. Yes, it has been found. And when his body was found, work was put on pause. The rescue efforts were put on pause. And families are still complaining because they are still searching for their loved ones. Exactly. So has work resumed currently? What are you saying? Has work resumed currently or we are still on pause? I'm asking, has work resumed or it's still on a break? The work has resumed because I don't go back to the site. All right, thank you very much Ngoziqa. If there are any updates, we'll definitely reach back to you again. All right. Mr. Shoumi, good evening once again. Be able to show me, can you hear us? Good evening. Good evening, thanks for joining us. Fantastic. So let's get you in on the conversation. For our president, Tudu Shogara Basinja, believes that the president, Mohamed Abwari, should create time and space for dialogue with the IPOB leader, Ndikhan, who is currently, of course, being held by the security agencies. Do you agree with him that this is something that is important enough to be done? Yes. President, Tobaso Joe is caught on, had gone through this before. What people were not told at that time was that Tobaso Joe ensured that there was a form of dialogue between his government and informal dialogue between his government and like at the family camps at that time. Same thing also happened in relation to Garnier Dance to PC when they were making some trouble, while the Shodak government did show some strains. But then they ensured that it was commensurate informal negotiation, ended by a call, particularly by Mr. President. In the first instance, we have a major problem with huge unemployment. There is a huge restlessness everywhere in the country. There is poverty on the land. The cost of food has gone up tremendously difficult to survive. So therefore, we have a very fertile ground. For those who are disaffected, with the present structures of the country, to be dealt with within the confines of the law, people restiveness. Responding is loomed by federal might, might not solve it. But Tobaso Joe is right on this. That is one thing which... Hold on, Mr. Shoumi. Terrence Kwanam, can you hear us? Terrence Kwanam, can you hear us clearly? All right, well, we try to connect properly with Terrence Kwanam who's a security expert. Mr. Shoumi, I want you to go on and share your views on dialoguing with a group that may not be open to dialog. And how difficult would that be to pull off? Is there ways that you would need to convince the group that they need to come in and dialogue? Yes, the federal government has a bargaining chip currently. Cano is in custody on two issues. One is purely legal matter, which is about the violation of the NBC Act, which led to his bail. But again, it was federal government that cost Cano by invading his house to flee the country. Now, the second issue is his rendition from Kenya, which under international law, many legalists believe is highly illegal. Of course it is illegal, it's quite obvious. But they have Cano in custody. So with Cano, they can easily engage in discussion with Cano to look at how this grievances can be addressed within the present political realities. That is, you know, true lawful means. We have the National Assembly and all that. And that depends on if the federal government is willing to restructure the country. I don't think Cano will settle for anything less than restructuring, you know, or outright dismemberment of the country. Nobody wants the country divided. But we have to listen to our youths who are grieved. It's not only in Southeast. They are grieving South-South. They are grieving Middle-Belt. They are grieved in Santa Cardinal. They are grieved in Southwest. So, and that is what Oba Sojo is saying. Basically, we need to sit down with our people who are grieved in different parts of the country and find out their grievances and look at how these issues can be addressed. Basically, that is what Mr. President is saying. Former President is saying, and this is not in short of calling for a conference on restructuring. That is, we need to not take the issue of restructuring seriously to avoid the sudden collapse of the country. He wants that. So I hope Mr. President will listen to the wise counsel. Well, that's a tough one, you know, because of the angles that you've mentioned. The IPOB is asking for restructuring, or at least for, you know, wanting out of the country. And of course, the federal government will not be having that on its table when they are talking about a negotiation or dialogue. So it might be a little tough there. Terence Kwanum, can you hear us clearly now? Terence Kwanum, can you hear us? Well, we're still struggling with hearing Mr. Kwanum. Mr. Showmey, so I want you to go further with, you know, that aspect of it. The IPOB leader, and of course, if you listen to them a lot of times, they say it's Biafra or death. It means that they are not open for any other, you know, consideration or they have nothing else that they put it on the table. So this makes it difficult to even imagine dialogue and also remember that the body language of the current administration doesn't seem to be one that you would expect will be open to any sort of dialogue. So do these two factors make it harder to even achieve? Well, let me address the first one. The first one is on the part of IPOB. Yes. What you have actually said is true, IPOB is saying that either they go it alone or nothing else, but that is a maximalist position. If you ask those who are experiencing political negotations or even negotations when it comes to employment, they will tell you that you go into a negotation from a strong point. You go in with your biggest, you know, eats and then open, you settle for something close to it if you actually can get what you want. So they have taken a maximalist position on this very issue and therefore negotiating with them, it's easier rather than more complex because at the end of the day when you negotiate, you put issues on the table, common sense will prevail, you want certain issues. This is how far we can go with it and then this is how it will get done and this is how it will be measured. So it's not something strange. If you watch international politics, that's exactly what happens. You have a maximalist position and then common sense will prevail. For instance, what could be more harder, more hard than the negotations between, the issue between Russia and United States over North Stream 2, you know, involving Germany, but at the end of the day, it has been completed. You know, those companies threatening with sanctions are not sanctions and because that's due to some back, you have the negotations that will play. So we should not assume that negotations will not satisfy I-POP or I-POP supporters or people in Southeast. I think it is worth trying it. The second part of the issue is on the federal government, I don't want to use the word, the federal government dogmatic position that the, you know, what they call disbandment is not what I would use. I would say that the right to self-determination of the people, you know, is not negotiable. You know, that is economically correct. The self-determination issue is negotiable. You know, whether from the angle of those who are saying we are demanding for it or from the angle of saying, of those who are saying, no, we won't give it. You know, it is still negotiable. Both of you still have to sit down and then agree on a new structure, you know, that can work. What the federal government cannot do is to say, well, we don't agree with the right to self-determination. Even though you have signed international conventions, the UN Charter, you know, is there, the African People's Charter and Human Rights is there and People's Rights is there, which we have voluntarily signed. So you cannot turn around and say, you won't negotiate with your people over self-determination issues. You know, then you have to negotiate. So the federal government cannot take that extreme position of saying we will not even touch this issue because we don't want the country divided. If you don't want the country divided, the best way is to negotiate. Negotiate with those who are agreed. And that is what the both of us are saying. Both parties are holding maximally this position. And that is correct in negotiation. Then you come down and settle on restructuring. And that is the only way out of this larger person. In one minute, I want you to respond to those who say that when you open the door for negotiation, it basically is also creating space for other agitations and other groups to spring up knowing that, well, there would be negotiation at the end. And instead of what, you know, instead of negotiation, it's best that you put your foot down and ensure that you crush every form of agitation to ensure that they don't keep springing up. What would your response be to that? Yeah, that is what happens in the dictatorial regime. But fortunately, we are in a democracy. In democracy, everything is up on the table. Even to express your grievances through peaceful demonstration is allowed. It's in a constitution. The right to peaceful assembly is allowed. The right to protest is a fundamental human right in a democracy. So when people, when you negotiate with one set, other sets are coming up with their demands. It means the government is responsive to the needs of the people that will always be one demand or the other. That will always be disaffected people within a country. The most important thing is not to resort to killing your own youth or jackboots, you know, democracy. It's even better. Let them come up with all the issues so that we can sit down, talk, and agree on how we want our country to be governed and how we'll ensure that there's development everywhere. And nobody, no child will be out of school. We won't have 10 million Amajuris kids on the streets. It's important to discuss all these issues. The Amajuris kids are human beings too. They are disaffected. We cannot refuse to talk. We have to talk with every single person, every single group who is disaffected in our country today. Absolutely. Because you want to build a greater Nigeria which all of us will be proud of. I think that's why it's important. Those who are saying, well, if you open the door to one discussion, well, it will lead to some other issues. They're holding a dictatorial position. You cannot do that. Nigeria is a federation, you know, of several ethnic nations. I mean, you are talking of over 250 distinctive languages. Why wouldn't we negotiate? Negotiation should be the two. Be able to show me. Thank you very much for your time this evening. I enjoyed listening to you and hearing your perspective on these issues. So we'll show a beautiful evening ahead. Thank you. We'll take a short break now. When we return, I'll be giving my take. Stay with us. Nigeria's leadership recruitment process has been criticized multiple times because of the many ways with which it lacks the ability to put the best foot forward and also give the electorate the chance they seek to put the best quality of candidates in office. As a result of this weak process, candidates use all means to win an election. Sometimes it also includes violence. Sadly, Nigeria's justice system has also been inadequate in arresting these perpetrators of violence along with their sponsors. And that is why today in the news, the United States is looking at placing visa bans on those found to be sponsoring violence in the Anambra elections. And it's not the first time we're hearing of something like this from the United States. While this may be laudable and seen as a possible deterrent, it also really hasn't worked in the past and exposes, most importantly, the failures of the Nigerian system which should be the one preventing this violence. Sadly, with every electoral phase, promoters and sponsors of violence seem to always get away with their crimes. We cannot continue to wait for the United States to help us fix the rot in our system. We can't wait for other countries to enforce doing the right thing here in Nigeria. And until we wake up as a nation, we will not have a leadership recruitment process that the people have any faith in. And that's my take. Thank you for joining us today on PLOS Politics. We return, of course, tomorrow, same time, 7 p.m. I am Osa Ogye, Ogbama. Have a great night.