 Good morning, everyone. This is the Friday, February 4th meeting of the elementary school building committee meeting, and I see we have a quorum. So I want my first order of business is to make sure that all the members of the committee can hear and be heard. And I will call out people's names. What do I see them on the screen. Do we have a quorum. Well, you, he's 123456. No, we need to wait. Okay. Thank you. So we, we need to wait. Now we have a quorum. Now we do. Thank you. Thank you. Good, good counting. We are. Oh, yes. That was, that was the whistle in the background. Thank you. Anyway, I will start this again. We now, we now have a quorum. And I'm going to call out the members names to make sure they can see and be heard as we are required because we're conducting by zoom. And once I do that, Margaret will put the agenda up on the screen so everyone can be reminded. The order of business today. So I am just going to do, as I see the names, Sean. Mike. Paul. Here. Jonathan. Here. Phoebe. Here. Alison. And Alicia. Here. A new member of our committee has just joined and I want Sean can probably introduce her Simone. Christopher is the town's procurement officer and she's just been appointed to the committee. Yeah. Paula, she is Simone officially on the committee is the period of time expired where she is. Yes. Yeah. So Simone is, she works in the finance accounting office. She's the new procurement officer. She replaced Anthony Delaney. And she has comes with some experience in engineering and design contracts and things like that. So we're happy to have Simone. And Simone, if you could just let us know that you can hear him be heard as I go around the room. I can hear you. Welcome. And Rupert has joined us Rupert. Yes, I can hear you. All right. So welcome everyone we have a fairly full agenda market if you could just pull it up on the screen. Quickly, because then I am going to turn the meeting over to the Dinesco team. As you can see the first order of business and those who were at the community forum last night heard some of this but they're going to do a very preliminary report on the findings of the conditions of the site and site analysis and tell where we are on the alternative diagrams. That should actually prove initial preliminary alternatives. And then the main topic of discussion I think today because we need to make at least tentative decision on how we're going to show ranking among our priority and evaluation criteria. I think we can take that down and Jonathan just so you know I'm going to call on you for a really brief report of the net zero subcommittee meeting. I think I think with that rather quick introduction everyone did receive the agenda I'm turning it over to you Donna, and you can whichever team member is going to do first, the conditions of the sites. Yeah, Tim, Tim's all rehearsed here you go Tim. Yep, happy to start. Will I have the ability to share my screen. I do. I have it. Let me just pull up the presentation so we can speak to the issues. Are we seeing that. Yes. Okay, so we're going to start with the buildings first which have similar issues across both sites as they were designed and built within a few years of each other, as you know, much of this will not be a surprise to everyone in the room, basically refresher but just to get through it. As you know, the buildings have envelopes that were designed in the 70s are poorly performing in terms of their insulative and thermal abilities. The buildings are broadly non compliant with the ADA and MAB and compliance with those regulations would require significant upgrades. Our vestibules with controlled access at both buildings but they are limited in function meaning that you can be buzz in the first door but the second door is not locked and there are program spaces that are accessed through the vestibule so that security function is totally short circuited. There is poor daylight control or daylight provided and poor thermal comfort. The mechanical systems are of an older design. It's a two pipe system so that you're either in heating or cooling mode and in the shoulder seasons particularly it's difficult, particularly difficult to give everyone in the building the optimum comfort. The classrooms were designed in the 70s when we had a different idea about how education should work so there are spaces that are not conducive to learning, poor acoustic separation. Walls have been introduced in the past for reasons of separation with COVID but even that does not make the spaces what we would have for contemporary learning. There's inadequate ventilation in the building. The unit ventilators that are providing heating and cooling for this space simply do not provide what would be a modern standard for fresh air in the building. And the systems as described are well beyond their useful life. The facilities department has done a heroic job of maintaining systems. There are things working in the building that you will find in other buildings that simply don't work in other places. That being said there's no amount of maintenance or work that can keep these systems and make them operate at what you would expect for a new building. And then if there is renovation in these buildings there are materials that will have to be abated in the ceiling and the floors and the mechanical systems. To go through some photos of the interior and exterior of the building that shows the condition. The exterior envelope is single pane aluminum frame windows which have been improved to an extent with polycarbonate Lexan plastic if you will fast into the frames but that's only a moderate improvement in terms of thermal performance and actually a slight detriment in terms of daylight. The exterior walls are single life brick with block backup which has almost or very little thermal insulating value but they are actually in relatively good shape considering their age. The typical of classrooms as you know are oversized poorly lit. The spaces are defined with furniture rather than the building itself. Storage is inadequate. The, there is a sink in the classrooms but it's not accessible. The non classroom spaces in the building that the staff use for learning stuff like that are generally within the core of the building so there is very limited daylight. Storage is an issue. This is a good indication of all of the non classroom spaces in the building they're less than optimally functional and not exactly pleasant spaces to live and learn. We have some of the windows that have been to the extent possible improved, but there are not what we would expect in a new building by any means. Many of the multi fixture toilets are radically undersized in terms of the space that you would need for accessibility. That's consistent throughout the buildings, other than the main multi fixture toilet rooms by the main entrances. Here's a shot of the main entrance at Fort River. We have the issues that we spoke about with security. You can be buzzed in the front door but once you get in the front door there is no further ability for staff to control who exits and enters. And then right off of the vestibule there are classroom spaces, which is not just bad for security but those classes are basically subject to being outside as when people are coming in and out of the building with the doors open. The last pictures were at Wildwood but here we are at Fort River. In a similar condition there are differences between the building that have developed over maintenance from the years the carpets that you saw at Fort River are gone. In Wildwood in a place with resilient flooring, which is actually adds to the acoustic problems that you have in these large classrooms, and unit ventilators which provide the heating and cooling in all of the classrooms spaces of the building are not the most efficient ways of heating and they are also subject to being blocked by use of the occupants. I mean this one is actually pretty good but you can see how the ventilation could be blocked and always does by users. Another shot of the windows that you can almost see has a polycarbonate fastened to the frame that makes the vision a little blurry. The technology for education that does exist in the buildings has all been retrofitted so it's often secured to the walls, not up to current standards and basically added later to the extent possible but not the most efficient or highly functioning means. And this is a simple diagram of the plan of the building which would apply to both everything highlighted in red would require major renovation to meet accessibility standards so it's essentially all of the bathrooms other than the main multi fixture toilets by the lobby. There are also corridors in the building separate from bathrooms that are too narrow for educational use. And that's the tip of the iceberg really all of the hardware on the doors and the building would have to be replaced and then beyond accessibility there are many things that we would talk about that have to be up a grade but this just identifies the bare minimum. And so that was the buildings in a nutshell that have the same issues on both sites now we're going to talk a little about about the sites individually which have very different sets of attributes. So, our approach to working on either of the sites will be a little bit different. As you know, the Wildwood site is about 14 acres. When you take away the areas of the site that are really usable. The slope to the southeast that is rather steep with mature trees, the access to the head start which will have to be maintained and contains the utility for the site there's about 11 acres left over on the site. So with the parking that is required play fields. You have a pretty dense. So here's just a view that shows where the utilities are. Obviously they're concentrated in the access road, but south of the building. They cross the site and then continue on to the middle school south of the building. So, whether it's a renovation that comes off of the existing building or a new building in the play field. There are some utility relocation and some enabling that will have to happen before any construction can start. And then we're just very beginning stages of laying out how things will fit on the site we've, you know, very recently come to an agreement of where the program is so we know how much large the additional be we haven't really spoken about adjacencies yet but we're just beginning to test concepts of how much can fit on the site and where it will go, and then beyond the program for the building itself we're beginning to test fit the other items on the site that will meet the goals of the project so this shows the renovated building in approximate addition that will meet the program goals it's one story on the northeast side of the building and it's two stories on the west. And then this diagram also shows a potential location for a geothermal well field that is about the size that you would need for 100 and 115,000 square foot building. And obviously those numbers will be refined, but for this stage that's about the size will need and it's shown under what would continue to be play fields which is doable in terms of and actually convenient for access. So with this option, it's not difficult to place the well field, but if we get into a new building and begin to think about phasing. So looking at the site alone, ignoring the middle school field below this shows a field outside of the footprint of the existing building which will continue to be occupied during construction. A new building south of the existing building and then a redeveloped site which would happen in a phased manner after the existing building is taken down what this does not show is an underground. Stormwater control system, which would most likely be outside of the footprint of the existing building so all of the systems could be up and running on the day that the school opens or you move out of the old school into the new school. And then within. So, and then also to control the amount of site that we can use this is a three store building just as an assumption that we know that that is an issue that we need to talk about, but this will allow us to maximize the use of the site. And then what this diagram also shows as an alternative is the geothermal field on the middle school field from a construction point of view from a phasing point of view from a functional point of view. That makes a lot of sense we realize that from an ownership point of view and I don't know if the word is politics, we may not have control of that site. So it's something we want to talk about. But this is just the beginning of showing that everything can fit on the site. And then, if we do work within the bounds of the site that we own that phasing will be an effort and certainly accomplishable, but something that will require a lot of thought. So just a summary of the Wildwood site 14 acres single point of access that will limit our ability to control traffic as it comes on and off the site. But certainly the site circulation for vehicles will be designed to optimize queuing onsite and do what we can to manage traffic. So Tim, before we go on, I don't know if there's anyone can you go back to the next last slide. Is there a possibility of using the playfields that are, I guess, from a property perspective attached to the middle school. Mike, go ahead. I guess no because it's based on elected officials on the regional schools and on the elementary school. I will say it's it's not used all that frequently by the middle school classes sometimes but it's a big field down there. It would have to be something that would come to the different elected officials to make a decision about. Okay, also the fields on the other side outside the softball field which is in more infrequently used by middle school, right. Exactly. Thank you. It's a big plot of land. The middle school doesn't often do softball middle school PE during the school day so but that would have to be a good conversation for elected officials. Okay, and just to clarify I think the what we would need is probably well, I guess depends on how deep we need to go with the boring for the, for the wells but we then would return it back to its natural to be used so it would just be for temporary. Sean, you, you had a comment on this too. I think that was my question what can, what can happen on top of the geothermal fields, or what can't happen once they're in place and ready to go. The play field certainly can happen. Oh, actually paved areas play structures I mean the less that happens on the top is probably better but there is little need for continued access other than the vault where the piping comes together. And that would not be under a structure but the other fields that we've installed have been under play fields. And so, having that there is certainly not an issue but obviously that it would be completely disrupted and have to be rebuilt as part of the project which is a consideration of the cost of replacing that field might certainly be a better opportunity than all of the phasing that would have to happen if this were done on site so if you see where we have it fit around the existing building. And that is in the place of now is half of the North parking lot and all of the West parking lot so if you imagine school functioning on the site all of its parking requirements, plus construction happening for a new building, having all of these things on the site together. It's doable but it's. Yeah, it might even be a benefit to the region to have a nice new level playing field right things I think our fields are, you know, not always the flattest so that might be one possible upside if that happened. It certainly it would be an improved field. Oh, Paul's hands up to your muted Paul. I have three quick questions. So one is the area to the east of new three story school which is the wooded area. How are you treating that is that seen as potential building space that we could utilize. I think there are trees there but that doesn't inhibit building necessarily or is there some restriction on that. That's first question. The second question is, are you looking at taking advantage of the slope to sort of build the building into the hill which is environmentally, you know, a lot of times doing that helps with environmental concerns. And the third is, is there interest in like formalizing a connection with the middle school I think they're sort of an informal path that cuts through that cars sometimes go down even though they're not supposed to but in terms of a second means of access egress to the school that I'm not sure if that's something that Rupert of the school district would allow but or want but those are my three questions. I can address them in orders so far staying away from the slope with the mature trees has been self imposed. Just because it is a relatively steep slope and cutting down that many trees often. People, you run into resistance. That being said, there are certainly opportunity to build into the hill to create more space on site as you say, if you can get the building to work with all of things you need in terms of some of your spaces that can be built in the hill that's certainly fine. That would clearly free up more space on site to do the things that we want to do we have not really discussed a formal connection to the middle school and whether that would be appropriate but certainly if we hear that that is what the district wants to do. This site could be designed such that you have a campus that improves the facility obviously for the new elementary school, but also creates functions that are easy to access and improve the campus of the middle school. Just just quick follow up so that and I think that when you look at a three story building is to most people in town it'll see mammoth because of it. But if it's built into the building it could present in a lower profile from the street at least but still meet the needs I think there's a lot of efficiencies in a three story building. Even though it most people might feel it feels too big but I've seen them work pretty successfully and in elementary schools as well because they take such as much such a small footprint. Yeah, the small footprint is going to be very helpful, particularly on the wildwood site with getting everything that we need to work. Oh, sorry. Yeah, so so I think one question Paul and everyone is if we're happy to explore the opportunity of utilizing the area to the east. Is there someone in town that we should be speaking with this that's still through the planning department. Are there restrictions every, you know, taking down mature trees do we have to replicate them that that tends to be consideration that we always have to contend with, or just will certainly reach out to whoever we feel is appropriate. Yeah, we can help you with that at the from the planning department. Yeah. And I think the only other consideration is the trees to the east, you know, orientation wise I think is what Tim was kind of alluding to we want to maximize the north south orientation for the classrooms to maximize the daylight and so we'll have to take a look how we can tuck this into the hill we've done it successfully on many other projects so that's good to know that that that's certainly a viable consideration. You need to unmute. Thank you. So I had a couple questions around the geothermal well fields. Two possible locations it seems to me not that they're both are needed. And I just want to clarify that. And then, when it comes to the well fields what is the expected maintenance what is required for maintenance what what kind of disruptions are needed because I could see one of the fields, not having much disruption or interrupting child, the children's experiences versus another. One thing I'd like the team to know is that those trees to the east, those are basically nature walks and outdoor learning spaces. They have paths that cut through through there to clearings that the kindergarten and first grade second grade a lot of the younger classrooms will walk into those spaces to do outdoor learning. That's not something that we can always work around but I just want us to be aware that that that does have a function for the elementary school. So, I just, I'd like to hear more about the well fields repair and maintenance and, and how that would happen and you have. Sure. You are correct only one of the fields would be required. They're both, despite the shapes, approximately the same size that they're probably within, you know, a few wells of the size that will actually need, but yes only one maintenance for the field itself. The well heads shown as the collection of dots will be buried multiple feet below the ground and will not be accessed regularly at all, or ever. That would be a collection point of fault, if you will, where the piping from the wells comes together and that may need to be accessed but that would be in a place that wouldn't be in a field. And then most of the maintenance will be in the building where the piping from the wells comes together so if maintenance at the field itself is not a regular or thing that ever happens. And we have limited, or we are showing at least one nature trail, and we will continue to locate those and incorporate them into the design but you know that forest to call it that as a natural resources why we, you know, stayed out of that area with this diagram but certainly we think that there's a balance that could be found, possibly moving a little bit into that area, using the site better, and, you know, making sure that all the needs of outdoor learning, maintaining the site are met. Um, so I have a couple of questions I know, you know, absolutely nothing about really the MSBA rules around funding for site work that kind of stuff. But I do have a question regarding if we were to go ahead and and put stuff on another site so not on the Wildwood site. You know, how does that work with the MSBA funding. And then, in terms of if we're going to do solar panels where in this plan would something like that go. Well, I'll take the first question MSBA will allow you to utilize a different site provided that you have approval to do so Margaret feel free to chime in typically they want you to have complete control of it. But because these are just well fields that's different than putting the building on it so we probably would need to confirm with MSBA that they would allow us to put the fields, the well fields on the other site without having complete control. Margaret, do you have anything to add to that. I think at the PSR level they'll want something in writing that indicates intent, and they won't vote on the final in my experience they won't vote on the final funding unless there's there's a written agreement. It doesn't have to be in place but there has to be a date by which it's going to be in place that basically in my experience again there may be other examples they won't sign off on the final funding unless which is the funding agreement right so this would be the most local vote. Right, and it's possible that even at the point of the local vote internally, the town might need to have that agreement in place so you couldn't move out of feasibility, which at this point we're saying is about a year from now, without there being a, I think a written agreement. Is it reimbursable though. Well it's reimbursable, but there's a cap so the geothermal system itself is. It's interesting, because it's site, but it's also building right because it's providing the heating for the building, but for the site. You cannot exceed 8% of the cost of the building. Well, you can exceed 8% they won't reimburse. Sorry, right they won't reimburse you so it's safe to say that this would not be. They would not participate in this cost, it will just be borne by the town. And that would go for a lot of the site attributes and they just capped their participation at 8%, even we've done schools where we've been on a two acre site. We still exceed the 8% cost of the building so all of that will be played out when we do the overall costs of the project and then how how that impacts the town share. So where is the where the solar canopies could go. Again, we do need to vet the amount of parking, but I think here we're showing 120 cars and Michael need to check with you on that but this was for another project that had a special ed needs. And so we assume that you would probably need about 120 parking spaces and this is where the canopies would go they will go over the parking lot. If that answer both of your questions. I just also wanted to add that we would also locate solar panels on the roof of the building. So that would augment the whole system. Mike. First I just want to say this is like for me right where it gets kind of exciting, where we're seeing where things could potentially be so I want to thank you for all your work I know it's been a race. You know as more information comes in you're doing these sessions you're simultaneously doing these test fits and so I just want to thank the architectural team. Thank you for whatever. So I want to keep my questions close quick but if you could forward one slide to the new construction. There. So I guess two questions one is the area and I don't, I don't do cardinal directions very well so to the left in the scenario where the geothermal well would stay on the wildwood site. It would also be a usable site for green space for student play. And then the second question I had is, how likely is it that, and I know we'll talk about. So the green stuff and Jonathan thank you for taking the lead on that in terms of subcommittee and all that work but is the likelihood that if there's a new building will need geothermal wells or there are other solutions that we should be thinking about these maps, it'd be helpful to know, are we certain that we would be going this route or is that still sort of a looming question because there are other ways to achieve that status and that level of efficiency. As someone who's on the educational side and non technical side it'd be good to have that in my mindset so I can, I can figure out the likelihood of needing these scenarios. So, one, the geothermal field that's on the site proper would it absolutely be could be used for outdoor play space green space lawn, wherever it's located it could be replicated in that way. Geothermal is not necessary, but what it does do is offer a higher your performing system more efficiency. So a ground source heat pump which is geothermal comes with costs. And then there are pros and cons of maybe using air source which would have no geothermal field but would have more equipment on the roof. And there's a litany of factors that would have to be weighed to decide which is better for the project. Geothermal costs more upfront. Air source heat pumps condensers VRF system comes with more costs down the road, more maintenance. So, with Jonathan, the Nets hero group. The committee at large will have to weigh all those factors and decide what is best, but it is not a given that there will be geothermal wealth. So they're both Allison and Jonathan have their hands up Allison. I just wanted to say that I was pleased to hear that there'll be coverings over the parking spaces in the new site proposal here because that walk would be significantly longer for the staff. Given that how the parking lot is situated next to the buildings now people are able to find parking spots that get them closer to an entrance. And it's been working in inclement weather as long. So I think making sure there is covering for people would improve their, you know, quality of life. Thank you, Jonathan. I just wanted to ask Tim question that we probably could follow up some more at the next zero subcommittee meeting but is it also possible that there could be air source heat pumps and ground source so that you know there might be a field but it may not be this big, or would it be more likely in your experience that it's going to be all all one or all the other. No, absolutely there could be a hybrid system so to mitigate the cost of the geothermal field you could design a field that handles a load on 80% of your demand days. So maybe it wouldn't provide the cooling that you would need on the hottest of the hottest days or provide the heat on the coldest of the coldest days but a system that is a hybrid of to would and may end up being the design that is found to be most appropriate. So the field, in fact, could be smaller if that's the way we want. So just to add to that, we are in the process now that we have an approximate square footage of the building. What we're doing is, we're going to run some models, based on the two sites there obviously have different attributes and try to understand at this level, how many wells and how deep we need to go for each site and then compare that to the cost and then again, if it's, we'll come up with options for maybe 80% and then utilizing an all electric, I call an electric boiler, but an all system inside to get us to the 100%. So we're going to start now that we have kind of square footages and we have the site attributes of both sites, we're going to start that calculation to share and talk about with, I guess, preliminarily, the net zero committee. Do people want to move on to Fort River and just on the net zero committee I flash that quickly up we've scheduled a meeting on the 10th at 930 in the morning. We, we have a subcommittee but everyone on the committee is welcome to attend that so if we have more will declare a group where we'll continue this discussion. Maybe Tim moved to Fort River. Fort River. As you know is a larger site. 30 acres. But as we, you know, begin to talk about the constraints, the area that we're going to work with is a little smaller, still larger than the Wildwood site, but there are a lot more things going on here here. So, the utilities for the site coming in and basically going under the drop off road. But unlike the Wildwood site, there's no connection through so all of the utilities on the site are for the building itself so as part of a relocated building or renovated building, the only part of the work. This shows the renovation addition, similar in concept to what we showed on Wildwood. This shows a geothermal field just south of the building, all of which would be within the regulatory and floodplain setbacks that we have documented so far and will continue to confirm. This is the same size field as the same size geothermal well field as the other site, as the buildings are the same. You can see that there's a lot more room for it to shift around. So with a new three story building on the Fort River site. The geothermal field moves to the southwest corner where the entrance drop off lane is. This is showed underpaving which gets to one of the earlier questions of what can happen on top of it. Obviously, there's no anticipation or need for maintenance at the point of the wells in the future, as you pave over them. This is located here to allow the existing school to function during construction construction of the new building, and to keep the site out of the wettest part of the site. It's not to say that the field could not be moved around for considerations as we get deeper into it, but it does fit in this area. It's close to the building, which is one of the things you want for the system to operate efficiently to the distance between the well field and the mechanical room to be short. And so, just like the other option solar canopies would be over the parking, which in this option is shown a similar location to the existing building and on top of the new building. And then there are just a few slides here that reiterate what we've presented last night and then the past about where the setbacks are this is the conservancy zone which is part of zoning. The floodplain which we understand to be under review and will be changing this year. And then there are setbacks to the wetlands that exist on the site and the riverfront. And we will be meeting with the conservation commission that is not to say that nothing can happen in these setbacks but we're just mindful that they exist and doing everything we can to make sure that we are, you know, share the town's values in terms of conserving what's there. Jonathan wasn't he quick question on that prior slide along the south side of the property. Is that a stream that's been identified as a kind of tributary to the port river that that was that creates that other lobe of blue dash zone. Correct. And as the river turns to the west south of the site that's that back goes on to the. I would have to go back and remember but it doesn't conform to my memory of the prior study but that that doesn't really mean anything that may be simply that it wasn't identified as part of that or I'm just not remembering also possible. No, we are certainly in the process of I mean we're working with the information we have you plan to do a lot with conservation commission and everybody in town. To make sure that we have these right and that we have the correct understanding of where we can do and what we, we start from the position of being the most conservative. Certainly the right place to start. Maybe. Sorry. I'm just a trying to figure out on both sides I guess I think I understand where the, the bus sort of loops would be is, does this combine like parent drop off as well as like would it be the same route for both the things or are there ways to separate that. We will certainly look at separating parent drop off and bus drop off I mean for the sake of safety convenience I mean there are a lot of reasons to do that and the Fort River site is fortunate and the fact that there is a lot of area to do that so it's a prime consideration safety a drop off. Also, just manageable flow is consideration that we know that the exit at the north end of the site is close to a major intersection that can back up. So, there may be an overall reevaluation and redesign of how the site works as we get into this I mean this is this shows a separate drop off loop, just to the west of the building to the left of the building but this is very preliminary. We continue to develop it with that functioning and safety in mind there's I mean this also shows a drop off to the north of the building. Yeah, I just to add to that Phoebe that is extremely important safety feature that we understand is is paramount when when we're laying out the site to maintain separation of buses and cars and then. People parking and walking in so what once as Tim said, once we understand a little more of what's going on in the intersection up north will certainly refine this and and also the placement of the school to right so these are all preliminary but we are showing the southern entrance to be wide enough to accommodate I think we have two lanes coming in and one lane going out so that we should be able to accommodate that the other consideration that will have to work with you and our traffic engineers is ensuring that we can maximize the amount of cars on site and get them off the road. And so we have to sometimes get creative about how we are able to maximize the queuing on site. So, this is very preliminary, and we'll continue that but as you can see, we have the existing building in play I don't know if you can see the dotted line so what typically happens is we can build the the new building move everyone in and then we have to complete the site work so we will have to come up with temporary parking and traffic during construction post construction while we're finishing up the site but we understand that the safety and security is paramount. Just to touch on that that you know the fact that we're at a very, very early stage here. For both sites, you know you're showing a new three story building. I think would be safe to say you can correct me if I'm wrong but but this stage, while this may represent the volume of the space you don't necessarily have all the inner workings figured out. It's kind of indicating a likely form potential form and an entry and entry points. Is that is that a safe assumption at this stage. That is absolutely true there is a lot that we don't know that could adjust the shape size of the footprint volume of the building we don't know. There used to be on the first floor, what can move up if the gym moves to the second floor that has a giant impact on the footprint. If, if, I mean, yes, I will leave it at you are correct. Sean. Thank you. This was just more information sharing. You may already be aware of this but there. So the first plans or at least request for proposals went out to develop a couple sites around the school, the East Street school which is sort of to the northwest. And then there's a site just to the southeast on Belcher town road that could, it might impact the traffic study I guess is what I'm saying it, they might add, I think somewhere between 50 to 70 units or something like that. Probably five to 10 years down the road but just a heads up. She had that. Sure. Pass those comments on to our traffic engineers. We can, we can send you that information on exactly where they'll, they'll go. You know, I have a question I'm looking to see if anyone else I noticed a few on both sites. When you talk about the ad reno, you have to work with the orientation of the current building. And then you shift it when you're looking at new, particularly on Fort River the shift is the north south, how much that orientation will affect lighting or other issues with thermal, you know, we were describing I'm trying to orient it so you're keeping the orientation on this one I can't remember exactly what was in what for, for Wildwood but we can continue that next week too but it just to say a little bit about. Yeah, you are correct. We rotated the building so that classroom windows would face north and south, which is optimal for day lighting with light from the north is not direct so there's never glare and it's constant light from the south. The sun is high so typically any direct light will be coming straight down in the windows and not traveling through the room and getting on desk getting on teaching surfaces. In the existing building windows face east and west so the light that comes in the windows is morning light and late afternoon which can be coming in, depending on the time of the year almost horizontally, which could create very very bad glare situations on teaching surfaces deaths and it's just not good for learning. Thank you. Any other I'm looking for hands of any variety. I think this is great. And I know you didn't have a chance to get us all this information yesterday but we will post these set of slides so anyone who wants to go back and look at them will put them in today's packet. They will be up and I'll share them with you as well but we will have it up. So, so Kathy just to kind of recap this whole portion of our meeting. Now that we, Mike and I have worked quickly diligently to arrive at an approximate square footage of the building all of the space requirements based on the ed program and maybe Mike wants touch on that but now that we have that information, and the required adjacencies and everything for the spaces in the programs, we can now start, as Jonathan alluded to start really forming the building and looking at how best to lay out the spaces, and then we will need to have conversations with you all and maybe the community as well on what the priorities are for what goes on the first floor what might go on the upper floors, what's important right for community access, and all of that and we started that conversation last night so that will probably, you know, start really shaping a lot of the conversations that we have with the building committee and the coming coming weeks. So just, and when you come back to us the add Reynolds that you showed for these two. I don't, I don't think we need an answer now but you chose to keep a certain amount of the building and add specific places just that clearly you have lots of options but just a little bit more when you come back on what led you to those choices. Sure. Yep. And, and I think part of, again, it's going to be a dialogue with you all coming up with options, you know, disruption to students is probably in our mind always really really important and so how we're able to construct a renovation that's meaningful for the 50 years of the building, but also so that it doesn't completely disrupt the students lives while the construction goes on so there will be a balance between ideal renovation addition, as well as making sure that the occupants can function in the building while it's being constructed. So we will also have to, and I say have to we must share with everyone. The Fort, the Fort River only options at some point we know that's going to come off the table pretty quickly but we will also share those with you. So, that will be part of our due diligence with the MSBA. I'm conscious of time. I'm just, are we ready to move to the next piece which was the one Donna thought we would be spending more time on but it's, we want to look at have a relook at the criteria list with a couple potential ranking options that they've come up with one is color and one is numbers. Is that all right with everyone will move to the next that next topic, and I will, I will try to figure out how to keep us on time. If we need to, can we can we can continue that discussion to next time we meet, I think, but at least get birds eye view TV, his hand is up. Sorry, I'm, I'm trying not to be behind I'm also managing home kids home. You mentioned having space summary I didn't catch the whole thing. Is that something that we have do you have that information and does the committee already have that. We literally, Mike and I worked last night yesterday and finalizing it now that we have the educational program and a great position to be shared with the school committee so we can certainly roll that out in advance of the meeting for next for next time so everyone has time to review we can spend some time going through that. Thank you for saying that. This is Margaret I just wanted to chime in so it's, it's a standard form that the MSBA provides that's that's part of has to go in with the initial document so you get a chance to see it but it's basically it's this big spreadsheet that is comparing their kind of standards with what is proposed. I think then we are willing, ready to move to it may be the simplest on it just to put up the two ways you've thought of ranking, and you've got one with an example on it on what it might look like. So, can everyone see the screen, and I, it's kind of hard to see is that is that legible. Is everyone. Okay, so what we've done is, I believe that that we have clearly identified what the priorities are. That's all been resolved. We have also established all of the criteria to which we will weigh the priorities, and all of that has been resolved I do want to point out that at one point there was a conversation about having under community what we're going to do with the other site other going forward but at this point that that can be weighed down the road but until we really know what what the town's intent is, we just felt that might take away some of the effort and thought for for what's most important so for us, we want to focus on what's most important for the project right now, and then we can move that back in. But going back to the ranking, if I see if I can zoom in a little bit more. There was conversation about how to do this. There's right now what we're presenting are two options we can do a numeric option, where it's a four point system, zero would be it's unacceptable, and three would be highly advantageous. The other consideration that we talked about with colors. So, red would be unacceptable and green would be highly advantageous, and there's even a way that we we've actually melted the two that you can have the color associated with the points. We've talked about kind of a, I think even saw it in the wildwood, how, how while it was ranked where they had almost like a consumer report circles that you know, empty circle was unacceptable. The half filled circle was okay, and then a full circle was acceptable but that that's hard to read and understand so we're proposing either of these two options or even a combination of both. And then, what we also wanted to do right now because we don't have an exact cost is that we actually have a relative caught construction costs so. For example, we'll have, we're going to run the numbers once now that we have square footages and everything we can give you rough order of magnitudes but, you know, say a dollar sign is less than I'm making up these numbers, less than 30 million. You know $2 signs might be 30 to 60 million and $3 sign might be over 60 million or something. And then the other conversation is instead of ranking by construction costs perhaps it might be a better matrix to rank it based on relative cost per pupil, and we might have both because one does impact the other. So for Fort River at 165 students the cost per student is going to be greater than the cost per student on a 575 student option. So what we've done is we've created we'll be filling in the concept facts the size of the sites the usable site the relative cost and we can probably break this out show the construction and then what that impact is on a cost per pupil. We're going to allow students to move in in the fall of 2026 that would really impact the renovation or renovation addition options, and then net zero capacity, or capability, and then we'll go through all of the criteria. So what I just want to quickly show I'm going to zoom out a little bit just so we can see this, and we're not saying yes or no with this point. This is to be discussed with the whole team is, and then I just hide these rows so we can kind of get to this part. So, for example, if we want to start ranking them and we'll just share this with you. These these are just examples but for Fort River only school full renovation no addition. How does it meet your the equity as it relates to your special pathways and impacts. Maybe, maybe that's zero. Right, so that will inform you that here what is what we did is we we melted the two great ranking systems. Maybe a renovation addition would be better. Right, we can have more daylight we can do all kinds of things so so maybe that's a one. Full demo with new construction for the pathways, sure that's great. Right, it doesn't accommodate all of the students, but at least it's an improvement to the other ones now. These are just, I'm just speaking through how the ranking will work and we'll all have to work together to make sure that we're all in agreement with the rankings. You know transit impacts, as they relate to safety and security. Okay, well there's really no change here and I don't think it's great. Right, so maybe this is a one because we'll have left students in there. And then a reno ad, we can probably improve a little bit on that. So, maybe this is a two, and then a new construction we can certainly achieve safety and security a lot better with the Navy relocation and parking etc. So this is how we're suggesting this could work. And these are just samples, it weren't these aren't our opinions yet we have to walk through it all with you because it's, it's up to all of us collectively to be ranking them but I just want to I'll pause there Kathy if if this explains it and Yeah, and maybe go back up to the top. I'll just give you a little bit of background discussion on they share it to us with this. A few of us before it came in and one thought on the ranking on the point system is that it should go one through four that is zero was an odd thing but those are the kinds of things that are be easy to change so. I'm, I think we're looking for general comments and the other is Donna. When would we need to make this decision and at the next meeting two weeks from now would we go through going through these so you can. I'll take Jonathan's hand up first but I just was wondering when do we have to decide. Jonathan. You can answer the question. My question weighs right. Okay, so I think Jonathan same when would we need to decide this yeah. So, our first mission to MSBA is the preliminary design program and what they want to hear are. Okay, you're presenting all of these concepts and we're calling them concepts at this point. Which ones do you want to bring forward to skim to the end of the study with a preferred schematic report which is the point in which you're going to pick your preferred solution. MSBA is going to make us continue to evaluate, which is kind of silly but the Fort River only with 165 students so we have to bring that forward, regardless. And it's our understanding that I don't think we're in a position you, you often correct us that we're in a position to dismiss a renovation and addition at either site MSB is going to ask us to do a reno ad. We're in a moment of 575 so would have to be at minimum the Fort River site because that's the school that you've selected, but I don't think we're in a position at this point to dismiss the Wildwood site. So, in our mind, we will be carrying all of these forward until we're ready to make a decision on at what is the preferred solution. And that will occur, hopefully by May, if that will give you a timeframe. And Kathy it's up it's up to you all if you feel that with the limited information we have a PDP to remove any of the concepts, but we think they're both valid sites and probably should be vetted a little bit more. I'm going to call on Jonathan but I wasn't actually trying to eliminate a concept I was saying when do we have to decide on the ranking system and then assign points but we can come back to that Jonathan. I just want to say I really like the graphic nature of this, particularly because most of our work as a committee is going to be kind of presented in this format. And even if folks are looking on a screen that is small, where you might not be able to, you know, read the actual numbers I think the graphic, kind of filling in the bubble with a color is a good way to communicate in this format. Paul's hand is up. Do we have to look at all three for River 165 student options or could we eliminate two of those or and just keep the one that's most likely. And the second thing I want to mention Kathy is I have a hard stop at 10 so I made Sean co host. So if I leave he'll be the host at that point. Unfortunately Paul MSBA is having us bet all three for the, you have to do a renovation renaissance and new for every enrollment. It's, I can't even go there right now. Alison. Just for ease of reading. As I'm scrolling. If I was on this and scrolling I can imagine I might lose track of which column is associated which category. So I'm wondering if there could be a bold line between Fort River 165 and Fort River 575 and then a bolder column line between Fort River 575 and Wildwood 575. I don't understand what I mean, because I know that the, the rows have been highlighted but if I started scrolling down I would lose track of that and I'm, I just wouldn't want my eyes to start to, you know, like right now, I would hate for my eyes to lose my understanding of which column is associated which category so I just don't know if that what could be done. I started to do that but but you're absolutely right and there's so much information and we could even maybe put the criteria of the priorities like on a different sheet or or I don't know maybe maybe rotate this or something so that you're not scrolling. This is paper way right. Alison on mute. I actually think it makes sense. I just knew that my I would lose it if there wasn't some type of bolding in the border. Because you, you have created a dollar the color definition in the title rose, but it just can't follow through because every cell will be colored and if there's a bold line just separating them I think that would just, I wouldn't want you to. I personally don't know if I'd waste time trying to reorient. Jonathan. I'm not necessarily an Excel expert usually go to my bookkeeper believe it enough when I'm putting them together to get hints by using as a way that you know when we're presenting that you could have cells kind of float at the top as you scroll down I don't know how to do it myself but I do believe it's possible. Another thing to think about. Yep, that is possible thank you. I use Excel a lot and you just you're repeating it so that there's going to be a way to not lose track of where we are. Right, you just freeze it. Yep. Are there any preference on between a keeping should we be keeping both numeric and colors the way Don has shown you we can we can have them both running and then shoot. If we don't want to have a long discussion on this now and you want to just take a look at it we can save it and come back to that next week. I don't know what it looks like from now, but it's sort of when, when, then the assigning to me there's the second part so do we want that it's a four point scale, whether it's colors or not. When, when and how do you decide whether it's a red, pink, yellow or orange, and who for number for some that are factual, it'll be easy. So it's more of a to me it's a qualitative decision. Yeah. So, some of it you're right Kathy some of it is going to be based on, you know, the, I hit it but but the concept attributes right so some of it will be based on the cost or construction or whatever. Some of it's going to be a summary that we'll have to put together, right, that will say okay renovation addition is just going to take 28 months of making that up but but it's going to take 28 months so now you can go down and evaluate how that impacts, you know, construction, or how that impacts student learning. Another consideration would be as you look at, you can see that actually we're doing our best to rotate the building so that it's north south facing for the classrooms but each site might have different attributes that will inform the functionality of the building. And that will also come out as we start laying out all of the options so some of it as much as we're trying to do to make it not object as subjective. So, some of it may be interpretive of what we're able to achieve at both sites but I think it's safe to say that once we vet all of the options. It should be readily obvious which which options achieve what differently, for example, Wildwood there's only one site access they will there's not really an option for another site access right so traffic impacts may be impacted on that site. So as we develop the concepts, I think those will help inform the discussion in a relatively objective way. And that's our goal. Alison. You haven't ever heard this much from me Kathy. I just wanted to remind the team that there are health implications to doing an ad reno that I would want everyone to be really clear about in their documenting of that. There have been reports about the health impact of people working in the building. And if that is not accounted for and really well documented, there will be questions and concerns on that so that that any ad reno that does not take into account the need to make sure that the health of people in the buildings accounted for will will have a negative impact so we really want to make sure we account for that and the cost that is needed in that. 100% Allison, we do renovations and additions all the time and there are health and safety issues that you have to take into consideration and those will be reflected in the cost of the project. Thank you. So in terms of timing right now, we have, we're coming back together in two weeks, February 18. And then two weeks after that is when we're beginning to see a report. And then we have to have a final report so some of the we're on what I think of as a really fast track thanks to our design team so Donna, two weeks from now will more, you will be expecting to fill out some of this provide more information so we can be looking at this is that and I see Alicia's got her Alicia's got her hand up to, but just in terms of we've got, we've got three more meetings. Six, it's more weeks than that to get to a final report for the March deadline. I'm just reminding people that's the schedule. So Alicia. I'm wondering how we will be including the input that we received at the forums, and if we'll be evaluating them on how well they're meeting the community needs. Also, and then I also am wondering about youth input and like we can directly ask students what it is that they want to see, and how we can include those things also in evaluating which options will work best. And trust me, we saw it input for a reason right not not not just to listen and not respond to so taking the information and Kathy maybe we can work a little bit offline. We're assembling all the information that we received last night right we'll have a recording modified recording of the session last night and we'll post it but it probably would be and thank you for mentioning this it probably would be a great opportunity to highlight what we've heard so far as an agenda item for the next meeting. Right, and we've had great staff input. And so we were supposed to meet with CPAC today but that got postponed so they too are going to have input and then we can work with Mike about how we want to engage the students. But, but we absolutely will share with what we've heard, make sure that we address it if it's something is impossible, and why it isn't impossible why it isn't possible and we can use those matrix or the input as we evaluate the options. So I think, I think, I think maybe we can take this screen down then and just so everyone understands you know we're not going to have to make a decision of which option or configuration we want by March. We're just going to be filling out this grid it's between March and May ish that we go from big concepts to what's in a what's in the school what does it look like where is it and so that input from students input from students input is going to be ongoing it's not going to be just this first community forum. So, Sean, do we have invoices we need to do before I turn it over, open it up for public comments. I can't you're muted. I don't think I have any unless Margaret corrects me. I think we approved the last one that was through December. Our January invoice hasn't gone out yet so you're not missing anything. Good. So I want to see if there are any more committee comments before I open it up for public comments. I don't see any hands up. So I think we are open for public comments and Paul you're you're hosting. Is that correct. All right so Rudy. We're going to go ahead and get this up. Okay, Rudy we brought you into the room so if you could. There I was having trouble being a muted. Thanks. I wondered if the Hawthorne pot parcel is still available for any use for the Wildwood site in terms of geothermal or solar. There was some talk about that for the first Wildwood school discussions and I wondered, I can't remember how we dispose of that parcel. If it still might be available for some purposes to give us a little more working room for the Wildwood site. That's it. Thank you and Rudy, I just, if you can, if you send that information in, we'll make sure the school has it. Thank you. Paul, on the other hand went up. Maria we've brought you into the room. If you could unmute and identify yourself. Hi, this is Maria Copicchi I live in South Amherst. I wanted to comment on the current concepts that you've shown for both Adreno and new building and it's the Adreno has got a lot to do with the footprint. So maintaining it in this concept, the current footprint and then putting additions on, and I would like to strongly encourage you to explore other options. When we perform the Fort River feasibility study, we looked at a range of options for doing Adreno that had different percentages of maintaining the current footprint to actually losing demolishing up to 50% of it as an Adreno. The analysis showed massive benefits to going to a one third to one half demolition of the current footprint and then having additions created and a lot of those the demolition was internal and mitigated against a lot of the problems with daylight and the daylighting was a massive factor. And when we did this analysis so I would really like to encourage you to get away from keeping that current footprint and to more deeply and broadly options for addition and renovation. And likewise for the new construction I think you know you've only shown a three story, and it at least implies at this point and that may not be true but it implies that that is your only option for new construction but really for Adreno, it doesn't, this is, I don't think a deep enough exploration. Thank you. Another hand is going up Paul. Tony, you've, you've joined us so if you want to unmute and introduce yourself. A new information shared in this meeting today that to my knowledge was not in the packet or previously discussed or shared publicly. The fact that the second enrollment is now 165 students is new to me. I believe that the enrollment study. The study enrollment given was 320. So there was no explanation of why that has changed. And then the discussion of the educational program and space needs to was mentioned that that's been resolved but but to my knowledge it hasn't. It hasn't been presented or discussed with school committee meeting or with the public has yet so it's concerning to me that that's now being talked about as if it's completed. So it just there's a general feeling I'm left with that there's work going on behind the scenes that this committee is not privy to and the school committee is not privy to and the public is not privy to. So just wanted to point that out. Thank you. Thank you Tony. You know, in regard to the Fort Rivers size of the standalone Donna we will have to read. We reported it out briefly but we'll have to report it out with an explanation because that's a number that MSBA gave to us a new number. So, I think we can just we can do it in writing but we can, we will need to explain why 320 change to 165. I'm looking Donna's hand is up for any other final comments and it looks like we and PB's hand is up as well. So Donna. Yeah, and thank you. Tony, for your comments I think to one one to Maria that you're 100% right that we now that we believe we have a draft of the educational program. We just need to go to school committee, but we need a basis to start from otherwise we just have to sit here and wait until all of this gets resolved so we just needed to start the conversation but these are no means are solutions or we don't you know we were putting the square footage and saying this is about how it could work so so we will fully that and carefully that a renovation addition and a lot of times we have saved a very small portion of the existing building and created a large addition so so we will fully that all of this so your point is well taken and and you'll see now that we have a preliminary educational program we can now start start in earnest designing those options as for the enrollment option as Kathy stated we had a conversation with MSBA because the district has voted to move the sixth grade up and so MS we were actually trying to ask MSBA for a little relief on the Fort River only option because the sixth grade is no longer going to be there. And then the current came back and we're still waiting for that letter, it has not been official yet but unofficially, they stated that, based on the excess capacity at both other schools now that the sixth grade is moving on, that you now only need a new school Fort River only based on a K-5 for 165 students. Again we're waiting for the final letter from MSBA, but if we wait and not move forward with any of this, we will be here, you know, much longer than than we all need, need or want to. As for the overall educational program, Mike and I and his team have been working closely to get a draft put together that was again completed yesterday and will be formally submitted as a draft to the school committee Mike I believe for Tuesday evening. So, again, we apologize for not putting some of this information out in advance, we're just trying to keep this moving as fast as we can, with no disrespect to sharing the information, it's just allowing us to keep the conversation going but that will occur. So we apologize if it came across that we were not sharing that information. So I have one quick question and then a request. I'm wondering, and this is kind of off topic, if we have an idea of how many individual people showed to the visioning sessions and then the forum last night, and not how many were in each but how many individuals along those three things because I'm, I'm, my mind as usual goes to outreach and I think it was probably a very small number in total. So if we don't have that number right now I would like to know what that number is. And then in terms of my question. And it might be because I'm not, I am neither, you know, employed by the school system nor am I an elected official or work for the town. But I'm, I'm would like to request that materials come to with the very least the committee sooner. I believe Kathy you had said that you may have gotten some preview of the potential sort of rating structure kind of thing. And any of that information that we can get before we talk about it here might be helpful. And then we have the opportunity to formulate questions, clarify things that may not be clear to us, as opposed to seeing it first here and then trying to figure out how to come back to it later. I think that that's, especially for, for someone like me who is, you know, very much of a lay person in this it's very important. I think the idea. What I see happening is I see that there are a lot of people here, you guys are fantastic and know what you're talking about. And there are a lot of us that have no idea what you're talking about and what this process is. And so I kind of want to represent for those of us that really don't. There's a lot that's going to get lost in translation, and we need to be able to be very clear, very concise, very, you know, we say we want to run this and be very transparent about it. And when the committee doesn't even know what's coming up next on screen. That's not transparency. And so I, you know, I'm more than willing to have conversations about how we do that going forward, but I think that it's something that unfortunately we're lacking in this process, or at least that's how I am feeling that this is being that this is lacking in this process. Thank you. Yeah, and I apologize for the not getting the ranking sheet when I looked at it I thought without more of an explanation it would be difficult to do but Dinesco. The team got it to us by Tuesday so that we can we can and will do better on getting it to you as hopefully a couple days in advance so that was Kathy decision when I thought of trying to even explain it to myself. I mean, they're Excel big Excel spreadsheets, but that, but that needn't have happened that was mine and I think we will be in good shape for the February 18, and both of these will go up today and I will send them, we can send them directly to you. So this was the beginning of a conversation. And you are completely correct. I feel the same way. So I know the one thing we didn't do and Jonathan probably says that's fine. Let's get a quick report from the net zero subcommittee. We do have minutes on that and I will send the minutes to everyone the video is up, and we, we have scheduled a meeting at 930 on the 10th, where Dinesco team will be there and I think you probably bring in a couple people, Donna who can talk more about this that we're really focusing just on net zero sustainability the climate issues, and we may. We may have more information by next week. I'll rely on you to say what we do but we will send that out and I will share the slides that were given to us on the net zero the first meeting. So we need to figure out how to set up the subcommittee information right now because we're posting agendas but there's not an easy place of putting up the minutes and the visuals, but I'm hoping to resolve that this afternoon to figure out how we do that. It was quite a good meeting we had about 30 people there, including the big Dinesco team with people who were co authors of the net zero bylaw. So people were weighing in Phoebe from building expertise from a view of knowing a lot more certainly than I do about these issues. I see Margaret's hand is up and then I think you mark Margaret I want to also be cognizant of time so if you can make it quick, we're at 10 o'clock. Yeah, super quick so one thing that was discussed last week sort of that I think is not on the agenda is, we did. As you all know that we had tend to date for the next community forum, and in looking at it sort of in terms of the flow of information for that meeting. And when I say we, so this is my self and Dinesco's recommendation to Kathy. We discussed moving that meeting to March 9. So I can't remember which day of the week that is, but I will send out a notification about it to all of you. And a placeholder invite for your calendars but I just wanted to let you know that data shifted a little bit. You know, the second one following the one we had last night. Thanks, Margaret. That's great. And Alicia. Thank you. And so I also just want to sort of pick up on what Phoebe was saying and say, this is a new process for me as well so I'm really learning. And at times feeling a little bit lost because decisions are saying like we finalized this chart but I thought we were just starting to talk about it. And that there were more things that we could have been talking about this week is what I expected to happen. And so I think like expectations like what is our plan going forward what do we expect to decide at our next meeting. So what should I be thinking about in the meantime. And like what is the timeline of this process I think is what I'm lost on here. And then in terms of outreach. How are we measuring success and honestly looking to expand on that because I think, while I think the public farms and the visioning sessions were great I think they were definitely lacking in diversity and in diversity in age in socioeconomic status in racial diversity. And what are we going to do like I think we need a plan like how are we going to ensure that moving forward. And so I just, I know we have subcommittees and all different pieces working on these things. But how can we centralize that so that we are all knowing and working on that together also. Because while I would love to try I can't attend every single meeting and so I feel like some information is getting lost for me. Thank you. We will work on that and, and I would be. Yes, the answer is yes we can and will improve. I'm not sure the markets hand is up. Okay. So, just quickly, one thing we could try Kathy is as a first agenda item to just look at the overall calendar and we could send the calendar out with each set of meeting minutes there. There is, Alicia, you might remember I think it was at the last meeting cat we'd gone through the summary, but I think having it handy for each meeting might help that. I do, if there's beginning to be a roadmap of what we're going to be doing it at each meeting. Yeah, you know, so decisions that have been made or still to be made. So I, Alicia. I would be helpful for like on that map to include things like that so if I were to say I would really like to see an improvement in outreach then at the next meeting we are going to be making decisions on how that can happen. Because I think also a lot of the things were like great we'll talk about it and then like a lot of the things we said we would talk about at the last meeting did not come up today. So what is like how are we keeping track of the things that we said we're going to talk about because I know we're on a timeline. So we can't necessarily push out too far the conversation of how we're going to do better outreach, because we have limited amount of time. So I think like it would be helpful for me to be able to keep track of those things if we really had them written down somewhere, and that I could expect and anticipate them. Thank you. Thank you everyone for both the participation the comments. And we do have. And just so you know Donna and others have said, you know, we are really still at the beginning and the big decisions are in front of us several months away so I think both what we can put in place that's more robust output. And what we can do better at giving you information in advance is all going to be improved. And Alicia, absolutely there's a subgroup that's been talking about outreach in an informal way we would be happy to have you join it. You know, because it's it's like, what ideas do people have what can we do. And when will we be doing what. I want to buy Mike Mike's hand is up. Thank you Mike. Yeah, yeah just very briefly because I have to run as well I'm sure other people do to just on the concept that was raised of engaging students I do think you know as you know fortunately our numbers are dropping and as things hopefully continue in that direction Donna and I. It's like some meeting in the last couple weeks. She was asking about that and just the ability perhaps to engage students virtually in some ways but but you know also perhaps in person. Hopefully is moving in the right direction because I do think I think it's a great point that some of the stuff can feel very abstract. And the online format works for some but not forever for others so you know it's a great suggestion that I'd like to come back to it our next meeting so we could talk about it as a group and I just, I wanted to flag that as something that a month ago I'd said now not possible. I think that a month ago, and but but now I think we may be in a place of being able to think about how to do that in some really interactive ways and I just I really love that suggestion and that idea and I just wanted to highlight that things are evolving and hopefully they'll continue to evolve in ways that allow for more direct interpersonal connections, and then the student piece is huge so I just wanted to second that thought and let the folks know that we should talk about it here but also that I think it's more viable than it was a couple weeks ago. So I want to thank everyone and thank you also for staying beyond the 10 o'clock time we're not too bad as it's 1008. I think we're ready to adjourn. It sounds like we have a very full agenda for the next meeting two weeks from now and anyone who has comments in between the committee, I'd be happy to hear from you. I think we are opening up a comment page we're looking for trying to get an engage Amherst tool up and running to solicit comments not just at official forums, and make for more robust process going forward. I know you were. You did a forum last night and got up early in the morning and we're back on call. So thank you very much for the intensity of the work and the information you're bringing to us, and I'm going to announce us as adjourned. Thank you all.