 Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe. I'm the producer and the host of the chats, which are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum. Today is Friday, March 11th, and it's 2022. I'm sitting down today with Mr. John Britton. John was the very first Mr. Classic Leather. What year was that, John? It was 1917. Okay. I was one of your judges, and that was a wonderful contest. It was interesting. Let's start at the very beginning, though. Tell us a little bit about where you're from and a little bit about your family life. Okay. I was raised in a small town of less than 5,000 people. We were fairly prominent. My father had a Chevrolet dealership. And then after he passed away, my mother remarried, and it was kind of the typical stepfather thing. He had been an army sergeant. He was propositioned in the army, and he told me he beat the shit out of the guy. And my stepfather was 6'5", and typical army sergeant with the crew cut and everything. And so it was a love-hate relationship. He put up with me. In school, we had the largest graduating class ever, 72 people. And I've talked to many people that have had thousands in their graduating class. So I knew everyone, and everyone knew me, small town. What small town was it? Indiana, Ohio. Tell us a little bit about your coming out. You were sent to a priest for treatment, but he said something very interesting to you. Yes. When my parents found out that I was a homosexual because we didn't use the term gay back then, they sent me to the minister so that he could straighten me out. And during our conversation, he said, doesn't it hurt? And I said, doesn't what hurt? Because I knew, all I knew was being oral at that time. And he said, well, when they, you know, they put it up your rear end. And I thought, oh, I never thought of that. That begs the question why he did. Yes. Now, how did your parents discover you were homosexual? Because of fight at school. That someone decided they were going to fight on the queer. And I hate that word. Because that was a nasty word then. And I had a tooth knocked out. So there was no hiding the fight. And that's when they found out. And my stepfather said, if I find out you've done it again, I will throw you across the room against the wall. Even if it means losing my, losing your mother. Did he mean because you were in a fight or because you were homosexual or both? Because I was a homosexual. It didn't look good on the family in a small town. What were your mother's thoughts? She cried. And again, for her, it's what if the people found out about it at the country club? Oh, my gosh. So what did you do about it? I kept on going. Just trying to keep it a little more secret. Used to have fun with coming home and there was an abandoned car garage. And one or two or three or four of us would go in and started out with a peeing contest to see whose piss could go the furthest. And then it started with people getting erect. Other people had their penises out. And then I'd gone to Boy Scout camp. And they had made up a game or knew about a game or something called flip strip. And two guys plus a third one would flip a coin and you'd call heads or tails. And if you lost, you had to take an article clothing off. Okay. And then once you were completely naked and you lost again, you'd have to do whatever the other person told you to do like run around the tent naked. Or suck my dick. And I was told to suck their dick. Okay. I was told to do it. So I did it. And that's kind of how I got started. I can't help but wonder what was going on in their worlds that they knew about that. I think they kind of knew about me. I mean, I wasn't the butcher's thing on the block. I didn't do sports. I was in the band. So, you know, I just wasn't the butcher's thing. And they kind of assumed that I was queer and wanted to use it to their own advantage. So how many people were involved at that time? Do you even know? Well, Boy Scout Camp, there was only three in the contest. I mean, the flipper and the two that were stripped with the two strippers. And at one point there were a couple others just watching. Okay. And thinking back on this, I never did see the coin, whether it was heads or tails, I was just told what it was. So I think it was kind of rigged. As a young boy, what were your thoughts on doing that? How are you feeling about that? It just seemed natural. Okay. But you said as you got a little older that you sucked off half the high school football team. Tell us about that. Well, it started with one on one. And when it was one on one, it was usually both ways. I'd suck them and they'd suck me. Then it got to be two or three at a time. And there was no reciprocation. They didn't want anyone else to know that they had done it. And that just kind of got bigger and bigger. And more people got involved. There was never a lot at one time, maybe three. I think a couple of times there were four. My jaw would get sore. But that's just how it worked in half of them. I did half the team and half the team that I did did me. Oh, okay. As long as it was on one on one basis. Okay. But how did this even come up? It was with the pissing contest. And then starting to get erect. Of course it was because they were seeing other people's. Cox out. That they're starting to get erect, but they were still straight. Yeah. So. And then after the boycott camp, it just kind of seemed to be natural to happen. So during this time. Did you have any idea about homosexuality at all? No. In my high school, I believe there were only two of us. He was two years younger than I was. And that's all that were supposedly gay. Although a few years later. I did run into a guy that was had been the captain of the football team and a gay bar. Hmm. We had a little talk and it was gay. Wow. What year did you graduate high school? 1961. Okay. Okay. So society in those days nowhere near as open as we know it now. Correct. Tell us about your very first visit to a gay bar. That was in Toledo, Ohio. Yes. I had gone to Michigan State to be a florist. I was doing on the job training in Flint. And their head designer was gay. And he knew I was. And we made a trip to Toledo. To a gay bar, which I never knew anything like that. It existed. Oh, and I walked in. It was the scenic bar, scenic bar. Yes. Okay. And there were men dancing. And I was aghast because they were dancing with each other. There were no women. I had never seen or thought of that. So I joined in. It was just natural. Tell us a little more about it. What else did you see in the bar? Oh, kissing. But it was all, you know, just in the bar. It was not in public. So it was like a private club. And that was my introduction to my first gay bar. Kind of like coming out. Now, in those days, there was a lot of harassment of gay bars. Did you ever experience that in the scenic bar in Toledo? No, but when I moved to Buffalo, New York, I was technical director for a professional theater. And went to the only gay bar in Buffalo at that time. That would be in 63. And. No. 70. 1970. Okay. And the bar was rated by the police. They had nothing better to do that night. There was nothing illegal going on except it was a gay bar. And everyone had to produce their ID. They wrote down their names and everything. And the next day it appeared in the Buffalo newspaper. With the names. A lot of people lost their jobs. Yeah. Do you remember the name of that bar? No. Okay. Kind of the ironic thing was right across the street from the theater where I worked was a strip bar with women. Okay. That was okay. I remember that. Even though they had back rooms. And they never rated them. I got to know some of the women. And several of them were lesbians. But they did it because that was their living. Wow. Wow. Did you learn anything else about the local lesbian community then? No. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't have any connection because there weren't lesbian bars. Yeah. Yeah. Now. As you were very sort of closeted at the time and not very knowledgeable about the community then. Did you have a concept on lesbianism? No. How did you react to hearing about that? Well, it's the same thing with me. That you're built one way. And if you learn to accept it, you go that way. There are, one time I told my mother because she said, you know, I wish you had other friends and that you would date women. And I said to her mother, would you like me to get married? Be unhappy. Cause my wife to be unhappy. Probably my children. Or do you want me to lead the happiest possible life I can? I said, some of your friends may be gay, but not accepting it. And they're leading a miserable life. And she said, which ones? And I said, well, I really don't know because they don't know your friends that well. And they wouldn't tell you, that's their business. But don't you want me to be as happy as I can. And at that point she started to accept me. Oh, wow. Now around what age was this? That would have been, like I said, 1971. I see. No, about 1970. 69 or 70. I see. Okay. I was in Buffalo, which kept me away from really what was going on in New York City. So I didn't know about the pride parade. Okay. I was in the Stonewall. I was really, you know, didn't know much going on in New York City. Okay. But you actually were able to visit a bar in Akron, Ohio as well around this time. What was that bar? It was called Mothers. And it was kind of, I guess, a typical gay bar at that time with a red flocked wallpaper. Just very wonderful. I'm tacky. And I would go over there once in a while on a weekend. And one weekend I ran into my cousin over there. Whom I knew already was gay. Because when he was in high school, he knitted me a scarf. Oh. Right pink. How sweet. Something I would never wear. Was that his way of telling you he was gay? No. It just was what he was doing. I was in theater and he was also in theater. We both went to Kent State Theater Department. Okay. Okay. Now you were at Kent State before the infamous shooting. It's correct. The year before. Okay. Yeah. I've gone to Buffalo. And I couldn't take the guy who ran it. He was a flaming old faggot. Who followed me around. He was actually when I went in the bathroom. And I was not interested in him. But he was interested in me. And I was offered a job in New York City with the New York City Marionette Theater. Oh. So I left Buffalo and moved to New York City. You would have been in New York City at a very tumultuous time. A very almost iconic and fascinating time. Yes. It blew my mind. Tell us about that. The subway stations, the Johns were packed. There were sex going on all the time. Mostly the lights were out. They would be raided. But everyone were just running. The New York City police didn't bother that much with it. Just they would break it up. And when you would go to the bars, there would be either back rooms or like at the spike and the eagle across the street was the West Side Highway which was elevated. And there were tunnels underneath and they would be packed. And that's where I first started to learn a little bit about the leather scene or the S&M scene. Let's take a step back though. How did you learn about the bars at all? How did you even know they existed? I had heard about them. Most of the other bars, the other few bars that I had been to were all types of gay people. I was not really into twinks. That was just, they turned me off. Nothing against some of the personal preferences. And so I heard about the men's bars. And I heard about the eagle and the spike and the ramrod. And so I started going to them, which was the S&M bars. Yes. On Sunday, it was S&M stand and model. All the pretty boys with the bodies came out. For Sunday afternoon. Sometimes it was sequenced in mascara. Oh boy. But on Friday nights and Saturday nights, it was men. Though the time you are depicting, the time frame you're depicting is the stuff of legends. Yes. Tell us your first impressions of these establishments. What did you see? What did you feel? What did you think? I saw men acting like men. Looking for men. And I seem to enjoy that. Some of the unusual parts of it was when the bars closed. There were a line of taxis out front waiting for you guys. Us guys. And we could either sit in the back seat and pay. Or sit in the front seat and not pay. Now, how often did you sit in the front? As often as I could. Depended of what they looked like. I think that future viewers of this interview would like to hear a little more about the bars themselves. What sorts of things did the bars have in them? I do box bartenders and pictures of men. There were a few bars where you could dance. But they weren't that popular then. They were just straight up and up masculine bars that I went to. Any dungeon material? There were crosses like I said, across the street. In those tunnels. There were. Swapping and spanking. And there was also what was called the trucks. Which were semi trucks. That. The truck part was gone, but the semis were backed into like a near a loading dock. And at night. They were wild. And you would hear spanking. Talk. Dirty talk. And then someone got creative and set up a card table. And would sell poppers. Wow. Wow. Those were the good poppers in those days. Yes. Yeah. Do you remember what they cost at the time? No, because I didn't like them. And. I'm wondering about the heavy SM scene at that time, which we've seen depicted, of course, in movies like cruising. Did you experience those kinds of places also? I went to a party with a guy that I was dating. And he said, come here, I want to show you something. And we went into a bedroom and there was a gentleman being fisted. And my eyes were just like that. Like. Oh. Oh. And. That was my first encounter with that. But in the bars, there was. Going home with someone was when you really found out about it. That there was one gentleman that I went home with. Very handsome. Nice body. We got to his apartment. And he brought out a toilet seat. With three legs about this high. And wanted me to sit on it while he put his face underneath it. And then for me to shift on his face. Well, all righty then. Yeah, that that was not my scene. I got dressed and left. Wow. Almost everything that was happening was a shock to me being from a small town and being very naive. Some of it then seemed to be more natural. For example. The fisting. The dirty talk. Domination. Some water sports. All seemed to happen. And I enjoyed them. Now. You were involved with the gay pride parade in New York City. Tell us about that. I had just moved to New York. And I heard there was this big day parade and party. And I thought, well, girlfriend, we're going to that. Good. And we were marching in the first pride parade, which again, I had not known about Stonewall. And as we're walking up the middle of Fifth Avenue. There was two guys holding hands in the middle of the street. Two more guys holding it to women holding hands. And for the first time in my life, I thought, you know what? I'm normal. Wow. I was in the open. Watching people being themselves. Marking up a main street in New York City. With construction workers on the sidewalk. Yelling things at us. And we weren't afraid. And there were lots of police protecting us. And I then decided to work on the second and the third. Parades. And during a meeting with the second parade. I had to go to the bathroom, so I went in. And the gentleman followed me in. And turned to me and said, what would you like me to do, sir? And. I stopped for a second and I said, suck my cock, boy. And then he took me home. And his name was John. His lover's name was John. And they taught me a lot. Sometimes I would be the bottom and. They would make me do some things. Sometimes I would be the top. And that's where I learned a lot about. That's an empty scene. And then a couple of times I took the original John. Out to Fire Island. And stayed at the. Oh, it's the, the mansion or whatever it's called. It's the hotel. And it's a big old house filled with antiques. Rents out rooms like a hotel. We would do our scene all weekend out there. Tell us a little bit about Fire Island. As you know. You'd have to take a ferry boat out. And it's like you go into a fog and come out. In Brigadoon. It's a completely different. It's really hard to explain because. It was just so natural. So open. And there was the pines. Which was where the rich people live with. Large cabins. And then there was the grove. Where us every day people would go. And I remember getting off the ferry when you had. A. A lot of people would go to the. Getaway cabin there. You would name it. Oh. The very first one I saw was. Thank you very much. And. Then it was the four seasons because it had four different. Enterances to it. They all had different names, but it was just. It had disco. Had grocery store. Just a complete. Different. Feeling. I mean you were on an island, but you were really. On an island away from the world. Now. When you were in New York. Doing the work with the pride parade. Yes. You had the privilege. Of seeing none other. Than that. Midler perform. At the continental baths. That is historic. Several times. Several times. Tell us about it. The producer of federal on the roof, which she was. One of the daughters and federal on the roof. His brother owned. The continental baths. And so they would pay that midler to come up and. Come up. Come up. To entertain. So as soon as they learned the roof was over. She would run out. Getting a taxi and come up the continental baths. Of which we were all dressed formally. In towels. There you go. Some didn't even wear a towel because they were in the. The swimming pool. Which is where she entertained. And of course. She was so happy. That she realized that her accompanist was an unknown piano player called. Barry Manilow. And that's how. The gay crowd. Really got. To be backers of that midler and how she. Kind of promoted that. Throughout what she did. She was. Glad to accept us. Tell us about the show. She was singing. And making us laugh. She was just hysterical. And. She had a routine. Set up. And it changed each time I saw her. It was different. Wow. Now. What were your thoughts when she made it really big. Oh. I didn't miss a thing. She did. She was in Cleveland. And. I saw her there. And. Ran into her. The guy that wrote her. Comic stuff. He was on. Hollywood squares with all the hair. Can't. Think of his name. He ended up being. Fairly big. As a comedian. And. I'm not sure I know who you mean. Do you remember Hollywood squares. I do. Yes. But the comedian I don't recall. Lots of hair. Hmm. Oh, well. I'm a disease. Wow. I can't say that very many people can tell it. I can't. I can't say that very many people can tell us. About seeing that Miller live at the continental bags. So having you tell us about that is. Totally amazing. Yeah. New York, of course, was a very. Open place for a lot of things. They. Last time they had created a bar was before I was there. And that was the stone wall. Yeah. And there was so much pushback from that. That he didn't. Raise anymore. Wow. On a more serious note, though. You've been HIV positive for many years. How have you managed that? How long has it been? It's been probably. 34 years, 35 years, something like that. And. When it was first diagnosed. I went through. The period of depression. Because at that point you had six months to live. And. After a few weeks of being diagnosed. I. Said to myself, you know, life is going to be short. I'm not going to do it. Depressed. I'm going to. You try to be as happy as I can. Enjoy life. Life is going to be short. I'm not going to do it depressed. I'm not going to be as happy as I can enjoy life. As much as the guy can for as long as I can. And. I think that has helped me. Through a lot of the. The things that have happened to me through my life. That's a very strong statement. Yeah. In fact, my sister just called me a little bit ago. Her husband had passed away. And she said, what do you do to pull yourself out of depression? And. I don't do anything. I just. Decide to. Smile. And go forward. And enjoy whatever happens. I knew what she was asking. I couldn't give her any other advice. I don't. No. Brush my teeth and feel happier. I just. Make myself do it. Wow. But you are a mentor. Now. To people who are newly diagnosed with HIV. Tell us about that. I did it to your course. And people. Who were newly diagnosed with commando our classes. We'd go around and introduce ourselves. And say how long we had been diagnosed. And at that point, I think I was like. 22 years. And. It was interesting to see their faces because they too thought. Six months. Yeah. And when I would say 22 years, it was like. Wow. Yeah, I can have a life. Yeah. And so I've been able and had the privilege to mentor. Several people. Do you still do it? Yes. How wonderful. How inspirational. Yeah. But. For the price of God, go on. But now. Yes. Mr. Classic Leather. Yeah. A little bit about that contest. It's very unique. And. There's an age limit on it. How old do you have to be to be Mr. Classic Leather? You have to be. 50. And then the leather. Okay. Now. A lot of the people that. Go to IML, but Mr. Whatever leather they are. Are young, pretty things. And I would say to a lot of people think you have to be. When I went to IML and people were saying, well, what's Mr. Classic Leather. And I would explain it to them for men into leather. Over 50 years old. It's go, wow. I never thought of that. And it was just very. Something I'd never been in a contest before. I never thought. I was young, pretty, or any of that. Didn't have a good body. Always skinny. And. Never thought it would work. And I was talked into this. And they're going into it. Everyone said, oh, you need to go into it. Oh, you need to go into it. It's just for you. It's for you. And. I did. Who talked you into it? Rick. Tina. Rick Cardero. Several other people around. That just they heard about it knew what it was. And. Just kept telling me and egging me on. Where was it held? It was held at the stallion, the leather stallion saloon. Here in Cleveland. And. You know, not too many people knew about it. And I'm. I just had to. Do like everyone else. You go before the judges. And. You go before the audience. In different attire. And. Then you're judged. What were your thoughts on that? On the contest. Yes. You're winning. All of the above. I was nervous again, because I'd never been in a contest before. I'm a very open. Person. I mean. I've accepted that I am what I am what I am. I am. And so when I went before the judges. Which I was told I talked too much. That. I just, I answered their questions. And I was told to be myself and that's all I can be as myself. I can't pretend to be anybody else. Yeah. So. And then winning. It was a privilege. Because I was. Went to IML. I was. Acting. For older. Man. I was. Representing Cleveland. So I had two things that I was representing. Where other people go. They're representing. Their club. Or their city or their bar. Yes. What were you representing? Older leather man. Okay. Cleveland. The bar. Myself. How old were you when you did IML. I was 72. The oldest contestant ever. Wow. I was very proud of that because I kept. Getting a hold of the people there. And. Asking if I was going to be the oldest. And when I got there, I was introduced. Well, he asked me first, do you mind if I introduced you as being the oldest. I said, no, because I am. And I was proud. Being the oldest. And doing that. Wow. That was my first thoughts. At IML when you saw all the flesh. And all the activity. IML is an experience. That. I wish. Every male could go through. There were every type of people there. Every type of body. There were masculine men or no, some that were not quite as masculine. We'll say. But there was a camaraderie. Yeah. And there were. Wonderful people like you that spoiled the hell out of us. That we were waited on hand and foot. But not in between. And our boots were polished so they could see a reflection in it. It was. Just meeting the people. And from all over the world. And getting to know them. And their experiences. That was. Very interesting. And. Just a wonderful. Multicultural experience. Are you still in contact with some of your IML brothers? Yes. Fantastic. You placed. Number nine out of 63 contestants. In what was it 2018? Is that right? 1717. What are your thoughts about placing top 10 at IML. I was shocked. There were 63 of us. And then they narrow it down to the top 20. I made it into the top 20. And I was really happy. And unbeknownst to me. There was a whole big group at the stallion. Watching the video of it. And all they knew was I made it in the top 20. And they were happy about that. And then. You, they narrow it down. And the next day you get your. Where you came out. And it says that I came out. Night. Overall. Yes. First in the interview. Really? Yes. I was number one in the interview. Wow. That's quite an achievement. Out of 63. Yes. Yeah. Anyone who's going. Just be yourself. They can tell. Yeah. Yeah. Now. Do you recall your top 20 speech? Yes. What did you talk about? I had another speech about volunteering that I had written. At three o'clock in the morning the night before. I decided no. That wasn't it. So. I quickly wrote. And had to memorize it. And then you get 90 seconds. Yes. There's a clock. Ticking down. The microphone is turned off. So your speech has to be 90 seconds or less. And I wrote. About telling. All the young Ripper snappers out there. That. They don't appreciate. Or realize. What. I said older ones went through. To give them. What. They take for granted. I mean the open bars. The. Disco's the. Pride parades. Now the marriage. And everything that. We still have a ways to go. And my speech was to. Corner. One of the older leather men. Banking them for what they did. And asking them what was it like. Back then. Wow. Because it is so. Different from being. Rated in the bar for no reason. To getting married. Yeah. We have a ways to go. And that we need them to volunteer. After the contest. You received a lot. Of positive feedback. What were some of the things you heard. Feedback from. People, the population, people that heard you speech. Well. I was told. I was a little nervous at that point. At the end of my speech. There was a round of a standing ovation ball. And. When I got home and the people realized. What I had said. And where I came out. There was a lot of. Comments made. Good comments for change. And. More people became interested. In Mr. Classic leather. So the contest is still going. And. Hopefully it'll catch on and go in other cities. Because there are some of us that are older. That. Can represent the city. Yeah. Yeah. Now what advice. Can you offer younger people coming into this. Community. Now. At the leather stallion, which is. Basically the only leather bar. In Cleveland. There are. People who wander in. Nervous. Because they don't know what to expect. Which. I have done. And I try to corner them. And explain some things. That. This is not. Necessarily a bar where you're going to get beat up. We do exchange recipes. And. You know, it's something that if you want to do. Do it. And these people come back and they change. They come in with. The latest fashions on. Pretty soon they're wearing jeans. And they got a leather vest. And they just, they change. And. Become what. I refer to as. Yeah. There's still men when they're twinks. But. They're more massive. Yeah. What's your thoughts on mentorship. I'm all for it. We've lived it. We've been through it. We need to teach it. That's why I try to. Talk to these boys that come into the bars. And explain that. We're normal. And they're normal. And. Just to explain to them what. Again, what life was like. What it is. And what it can be. But we need them to help. And we need them to step up. The people that have been. Running everything. We're getting older. Yeah. And we need. Young blood to start volunteering. In doing whatever they can for. The leather community. But the gay community. Yeah. I volunteered and done it. For the AIDS task force. And this was my 35th year doing it. And now I. Try to raise money to buy turkeys and fixings for Thanksgiving for the AIDS task force. Yeah. And I'm tired. What's the biggest misconception. About you. I don't know because. Like I say, I'm myself. I am who I am. I don't hide anything. I'm proud of what I am. I don't have uncontrolled ego. I control it. Because I am what I am. John Britton. I would like to thank you very much. For an amazing interview for inside leather history. A fireside chat. I hope that you and your people can watch it. And learn from it. So do I.