 Hi this is Sandy Baird a citizen activist and I am here today to talk about a current local issue reminding the audience however while we act locally we think globally so we recognize that this housing situation that we're talking about is not only a housing situation here in Burlington although it's a pressing problem here in Burlington but it's also a problem that is occurring throughout the United States and also throughout the world. With us today is Bob Collins who is a tenant at Decker Towers and a resident there and also Jim Rader another concerned citizen who has friends who also live at Decker Towers and who wanted to talk about the current situation there with us because as I said Jim is a friend of all of us a friend of the people and also a friend of the tenants so he's very aware of all the problems that have been occurring at Decker Towers. Okay so I'm gonna turn this over to Bob Collins who is the resident there and talk a little bit about who he is how he happens to live there and what is the current situation. Okay so Bob. Well we have 161 apartments. Okay let me stop you there so there's 161 residents and where is at least more than that. More than that but that's on many apartments we have. Okay and where is this located. Decker Towers is on St. Paul Street in Burlington. Across from Carey's quick stop. Yep right across from Carey's quick stop. It's a baby blue building it's 11 stories the largest tallest building in Vermont. In Vermont. In Vermont. We're small change right. Always surprises people because it's actually built in a river gully so it's not like up on the hill so people don't think of it as a tallest but it is. It's our our skyscraper. That's right that's right. Well isn't that gonna be changed pretty soon. It's been threatened with the mall and there's another project downtown that's threatened it but so far I think we're holding. If that was all we needed to worry about we'd be in good shape. I know. I moved there about 10 years ago. Okay but when you say subsidized housing some of our viewers probably don't know what that means. Yeah well I'm on disability. I was on disability for health reasons before I lost my leg in the amputee but I'm not there because of that. I had other health issues that qualified me for a disability and because of that I was eligible for subsidized housing got on a wait list and I was offered an apartment at Decker Towers. I moved in there about 10 years ago when I moved in you know my thought is this is great. I'm a Burlingtonian I love Burlington. I'm happy to spend the rest of my days here. Am I asking how old you are? 70 years old, 70 in May and the building is or at least you. How many rooms do you have? Just one it's an efficiency. It's about if you looked at the total footprint about 24 by 24 I would guess. So it's not huge but it's plenty for me and it's a handicapped apartment. I noticed you're in a wheelchair so does that mean that this is handicapped accessible? Yes. And what floor? I'm on the 8th floor. I hope there are elevators. There are two elevators. Yeah we all feel that we could use at least three and elevators do break down down quite often. They're old. Yeah. Is the whole building old or what's the deal? The building was built I believe in 71 so yeah it's an old building. Who owns it? I believe Burlington Housing Authority owns it. As far as I know. And they probably built it do you think or what? Boy you got me there. I don't know all the details. I don't know if it was built by the city or? You know the relationship between the city of Burlington and the Burlington Housing Authority is a little unclear to me right now. When I was looking up BHA I'll call them to check on this meeting. I had some trouble finding it and when you go to the Burlington City site it's not listed as one of the departments which surprised me. So it must be somewhat semi-autonomous but it is run or overseen by a board of commissioners I know that. That I were pointed by the mayor? I'm pointed by the mayor and or the city council I'm not sure whether the city council is involved. Good point. It's not clear to the public it's a little confusing I think. Well obviously if you guys are experts in this situation can't find it. Yeah well I'm yeah I'm not clear. I would I would guess it gets federal funds. Oh it does yeah right okay. Connected with HUD in some way I believe. And to answer further your question about subsidy subsidized housing my understanding and Bob you can correct me if this is not right is that at least most people who live in these subsidized public housing buildings units their rent is fixed at no more than 30% I believe of their income. It was a formula for 30%. So that's the subsidy they're paying less than the market rate. Oh it's way below market rate. What you pay is below market rate. I couldn't afford to live in Burlington. I don't know. I'd be homeless if I didn't have their assistance. I think and that's increasingly the case for a lot of people all across the country. Right. But I understand that in Burlington has especially high rate of homeless people. I think so and I'm not an expert on that area but I believe it's because a lot of it is because we have such excellent human services. Do we. I think so. When you look around the country I think Burlington and Vermont has pretty good services. I think Burlington has a reputation for being a place that's relatively friendly to homeless and people with issues. Okay well let's get to that in a minute. First of all so you've lived there for a long time. You've enjoyed it. You plan to stay there. Until a couple years ago I did. Okay so that's really what we're here to talk about. There's it has been reported also in the press. I believe that Decker Towers maybe with other housing projects increasingly are under you know problems has a lot of problems. So could you describe why it is that it has come to your attention that there are problems and right. We have problems in our building and mostly around the issue of safety. There is a drug problem and a homeless problem in Burlington in general in the country. In Vermont in Burlington no question about it and that's the first thing you'll hear if you talk to Steve Murray who's the director of the Burlington Housing Authority. It's everywhere. We're doing the best we can etc. But I believe from my observation and again I'm not an expert that Burlington the Decker Towers has really become a hub in Burlington. Why? Because it's easy access. For some reason our security system has not been enforced. Okay let's go back. When you say it's a hub do you mean it's because it's downtown or what? Partly because of the location. There's no doubt about that. It's centrally located. It's close to City Hall Park which is another as you know we have observed a lot of activity there. Anybody who's at Decker Towers is not at the same time at City Hall Park. People have been coming and going at Decker Towers freely and I mean non-residents. Homeless people people were there to buy drugs. We have a handful of residents that are selling drugs. Within the building? Within the building. People who have leases who live there who have apartments and they're selling drugs and most of them are in the process of being evicted for non-payment of rent. Who the drug sellers? Yeah. They're not paying rent you don't think? Some of them are not paying rent and their being BHA is evicting them for non-payment of rent. Steve has an explanation for that. I personally feel they should be evicted for selling drugs which is a direct violation of their lease. Immediately breaks their lease and we have cameras all over the building so it's not like we don't have have it on camera. You do have it on camera? Coming and going. They do drug deals right out in front of the building. They're not afraid. The police don't come half the time. More than half the time probably and I know they're short staffed and they have a prioritization of you know what they respond to what they don't don't have the resources for are you know the building managers they're just not enforcing our security system. We have a call box. No guests are supposed to come no non-residents are supposed to come into the building unless they're buzzed in by a resident or a resident comes down from their apartment and opens the locked door and lets them in right now what's happening is people are just following residents in. What do you say people? Who? People who are not residents who are coming to buy drugs or coming to sleep in the building. They come and sleep in the stairways at night in the laundry rooms in other common areas and Burlington Housing Authority their response to that is instead of addressing security at the front door and keeping them out of the building they're locking down the laundry rooms so they're locking down our library they're locking down our observatory on the 11th floor so that after hours we don't have access to those common areas. Okay so but you're talking about security okay so let's go back to that is there a front door? Yeah there's a main entrance right on St. Paul Street and it has a vestibule where you come in anybody can open that front first door then you're in kind of a foyer and then there's a call box on the wall which currently only works one way as far as being voices being understood so it's broken but even when it works it's I felt it was not user-friendly but you know people are before we just got new door locks before that people were just yanking the door and basically breaking in. Breaking the magnetic lock in other words breaking the lock open the door open and coming in if they didn't have the patience to wait and you know it's just like the drug dealers are coming and going freely and I've heard a rumor that there's a drug dealer who's living in an empty apartment right now and the person who's supposed to be there is moving around to different apartments it's not a secret and nothing's being done about it and so I don't have the answers to that because I'm not a management person but it's not good people are afraid they're hiding in their apartments afraid to come out we have what happens if what happens is there violence has there has been some violence yes what kind a few residents have been hit by people coming in there was one woman that was hit I wasn't there she wasn't seriously injured but she basically said to a person that was trying to follow her in no you can't come in and he hit her this is all hearsay but this is what I heard I've heard it from several people we have they'll steal from you they come in with what do you mean they steal from you from your person sure people residents have been like robbed yep was the gentleman that was sitting out front with a walker and somebody reached in and grabbed his wallet right right there right in front of him just took off with it mm-hmm people have been me the other day I'm not surprised mm-hmm people have been threatened with weapons by the drug dealers and with weapons yes no you personally seen weapons no but you have had reports yeah many from other residents and I've been threatened three times by a drug dealer that lives on my floor subtle threats you know what it will like what oh it's hard to describe just like where do we get you when you're alone or something like that why what what did they see in you the person that I'm talking about it doesn't like the fact that I know that he knows that I know that he's a drug dealer mm-hmm and he tried to get in the building once without he forgot his his card or most likely he had given it to somebody else and I wouldn't let him in and he was angry and he yanked the door and busted it open came in he probably I don't know I haven't talked I don't talk to him I like to add here I'm a frequent visitor to the building in addition to because why two two friends including Bob including my friend French who lives there so I visit pretty much weekly and I've observed some of these problems I certainly have not been affected in any way like what Bob is describing but I've heard a lot of reports of what's going on there and I just want to emphasize I think it's not only safety which is a big thing I mean people really afraid afraid for their lives but it also degrades the quality of life for everyone who has big time and that that I have observed and seen some of the effects of and it it is not the kind of thing that residents of a building should have to endure Jim you were former assistant to Mayor Sanders a second right I never had that title but I was city clerk of Burlington for 11 years so I worked in this congressional office you know right so you've seen big changes right I would say so I would uh-huh well so why I'm a citizen and been here since 1968 but boy they're here what that's when I moved here in 68 came in 68 and yeah it was kind of a sleepy town sleepy little town right yeah I wish not to not that I love sleepy little towns no I like cities but it was still a college town yeah right it was a lot going on exactly and there wasn't much crime no and honestly the thing that is so shocking to me is there were no homeless there was one person that I knew of that was homeless and it's because he really drank too much right but I honestly certainly wasn't the way to know and can you imagine a life anymore in a city without the homeless no because I was recently in Pittsfield mass homeless that's where I'm originally that's where I was born oh really I was born and brought up in Springfield well pistol was a GE town yes and Springfield was of course Indian motorcycle and guns yeah it's a lot interesting yeah however both towns were really working class towns yep very much and people all had jobs and there was virtually no homeless that I never knew about no really until quite recently isn't that true I I don't know how recently but you're right about that it was very different back then when Jim was city clerk I was at Burlington Electric that's how I originally that's where I first met Jim just by going to City Hall and then we dream that at the YMCA swimming but I was working at Burlington Electric when Bernie was mayor and back then it was city was very different yeah there were problems but nothing like nothing like this and you could pretty much walk anywhere you know North Street might be a little sketchy late at night but probably only if you were a woman right it's really pretty safe to walk in where I know it's like totally different in terms of homelessness I yeah what happened I marked the change just around 1980 I was a counselor at the Vietnam Veterans Center before I came to City Hall and I got involved with a group that was trying to start a shelter at that time and what was the group it was a group led by Reverend Ealy Gary Ealy and we or they started a small shelter on Lower Main Street that I think had a capacity of maybe seven people and that seemed to pretty much meet the need at that point but within a year the numbers just skyrocketed and 80 81 the mayor's office mayor Sanders began to hear from a lot of community leaders about people coming wanting to sleep in the churches and it just had become a very visible and very impactful problem and so that's when the mayor asked me to call a meeting which I did and that's eventually led to COTS to COTS yes uh-huh which is the community on temporary shelter committee on temporary shelter we first I won't be great on dates here but I think our first winner was 82 okay so who was present then Reagan it was just harder to it was just when Reagan came into office uh-huh and I believe a significant factor we're kind of getting perhaps off the subject here but a significant factor was the cutting of funds for HUD and for your housing programs yeah what I just try to emphasize that at Decker Towers is that well the problem that we have would be a significant problem anywhere at any yes exactly however Decker Towers is a building that is full of our most vulnerable citizens they're elderly disabled many health problems many many health problems and we just we are not it's not a building full of people that can stand up and deal with this or self-help yes exactly right so you know when we had a meeting the other day and I think there might have been 20 or 30 people there and out of a building of 161 apartments and so you know there's a lot of people they're afraid they don't they don't they just hiding in their apartment waiting for it to get better it's not gonna and that's not gonna happen no and so we've gotten some act some positive things are being done I think it's a reaction to the pressure and of course they'll deny this but I think it's the reaction to the pressure that Decker Towers is putting on and that the general public awareness is putting on the administration of Burlington Housing Authority to fix the problem you know they're it's right in their literature and it's in the least they're supposed to provide safe housing for us it's not safe okay let me let me go back and for one point that Jim made yes I believe in the 80s that homelessness became a problem because programs were defunded I'll tell you the critical problem I was in the legislature in the 90s but the most critical problem I saw was the cutting of welfare assistance to mothers and they're largely to mothers or to single parents who had kids and welfare was cut that was cut though under the Clinton era not not the Republicans and it was a big mistake because what not what I see every day are women and children who are basically homeless or very safe unsafe conditions okay but that was that's one problem which I believe that Reagan exasperated and then the Clintons did after that okay but that was a real problem of the homeless at that point I don't think it was also addiction that much was it no I think and that and that seems to have skyrocketed I agree after the 90s I mean do you think so or not recently I think and I that's what I don't understand is is this incredible level of addiction which I see every day because I go past City Hall every day these people the people who are abusers of drugs I don't I have some sympathy for them but that is even a different problem than people who simply can't afford rent isn't it very different and you know I as I point out in one of the postings I put up on our bulletin board I have great compassion I do too for the people who are homeless and people who have drug problems and however they don't belong at Decker Towers you know they just don't well they can't can they can't deal with them right they shouldn't be able first of all tenants who are selling drugs should be evicted and it shouldn't take a year to evict them but it does well if it does then you know there's a problem with the system because that's a year that they're terrorizing and bring people in the building that might hurt or and or kill someone yeah and the other thing is that the people who are trying to get into the building to buy drugs if they couldn't get into the building the dealers would have to go out and sell to them off property at least that would give us some of our safety back drug dealers need a place to live they have to have an apartment the landlords and then they are just pulled two issues out of a resolution that was going to be sent to the city council concerning did problems with homeless and and drug addicts and it was to hold the drug dealers more responsible and to hold the landlords who knew they had tenants that were dealing drugs more responsible hold them responsible okay which I think are two excellent points if you can figure out how to do it constitutionally well that's you they have more rights than we do it feels like that okay well the people that are coming into the building and basically terrorizing us in our own home this is not just an apartment building for us this is our last home right where most people are going to live there until they die and all we want us to have a safe place to live and we don't have that and I don't think I think we can have that I think it's being mismanaged okay I want to address that in a minute but Jim were you going to say something well I just I don't know how much time we have left but I want to make sure that people know about a meeting coming up of the board of commissioners of the Burlington Housing Authority I think there's a slide probably being put up now and I'd like to urge as many people as care about this issue and are concerned about the safety and the quality of life of people at Decker Towers and actually other places around the city I'm sure other BHA and other agencies yeah normal neighborhoods right yeah I mean I live on Luma Street I mean there's reports all the time of car break-ins of home invasions no I know it come to Decker Towers money to come to Decker Towers yeah yeah so I don't know what the solution or solutions are that are going to effectively address this issue but I think that people who are concerned need to step up and get involved and this meeting of the Burlington Burlington Housing Authority on the 26th Tuesday it is at 9 in the morning I believe which is not the greatest time but where is it at again it should be on the slide I believe it's 101 College Street it's another facility of Burlington Housing Authority here's a September 26th 9 30 Tuesday at 101 College correct okay so we can all go and hear at least what the problem is and possible solutions I do want as a look because I'm a lawyer to say something to you though because I go to the mayor's meetings sometimes and I'm going to try a lot more to go at 8 o'clock at the bagel bakery and every city all the citizens there are concerned about this problem because it's Decker Towers is key I'm not going to minimize that but it's every single neighborhood is also concerned about drug addiction and home invasions and burglaries and so forth I just want to say when you say that they should be evicted I'm an attorney and so I do know there and I'm not saying whether I agree with it or not I'm just saying the legal process for eviction is very long very long and that was put in place to protect tenants so that landlords couldn't boot you out in any moment right I appreciate that I do too I've been a tenant myself however it also has stymied in other words the courts to do really anything about it the other option of course that you're talking about is the police which I agree but police also are constrained by something called the US Constitution and so some of these things you're talking about seem insoluble through the courts and I'm really sorry about that I but I'm really sorry about that from the bottom of my heart because I have to deal with the courts I understand that you know from our point of view and you're right I understand the legalities and the constraints as a resident I'm not going to speak for all the residents but I'm guessing a lot of the field the way I do yeah when you when you're in your home and you're watching and it's supposed to be secure with the keypad and the locked doors and the entrances supposed to be controlled and people are constantly constant flow of people off the street coming to buy drugs walking right into your living room basically mm-hmm okay and you know around the building seeing if there's anything they can steal etc knocking on your door because they got the wrong door when the drug dealers down the other end of the building you know it's very easy to tell them okay you want the other end of the building you know because you know it can tell what they're there for sometimes they knock on the doors at three in the morning I can hear the stairway door all night long they come up the stairs though because there aren't any cameras in the stairway and they know that of course they know that they sleep in the stairways a lot of them so I you know I understand the constraints but I find it hard to believe that something can't be done to at least well one thing is being done as Jim mentions there is going to be a meeting on the 26th correct at 9 o'clock at 101 College Street and I'll tell you it's a huge local concern the only answer I think is organizing tenants is having tenants and residents organize organize organize and make something happen okay gonna get those tenants that are terrorized out of their apartments to organize that's where we're stuck well we'll do everything we can help right it was that's why we need help from outside that's what we're here for right and I appreciate that I appreciate the attention on the problem because the tenants are probably not going to solve it because we don't have enough in a building our size if we can get enough people to band together and be organized we can literally probably do it ourselves drive them out of the building just like our presence okay so we don't have the people that's why I mean but you might on the 26 right we're gonna have some hope okay I think we're out of time for the day but we'll be back I'm sure and I want to thank you Bob for being so forthright and Jim also who's been with the people of this city for a very long time and we'll be back in a month or so or sooner if we have some Thank you both for your interest in your efforts okay thank you thank you