 Hi, thank you for joining us. This is Rise Phoenix Rise, and I am Tracy Carano-Jones, the founder of Rise Phoenix Rise. Rise Phoenix Rise is an animal-assisted wellness program that marries the evidence-based practices of peer support and animal-assisted therapy. Today, we have a wonderful host of people to help us understand what the benefits are of peer support and animal-assisted therapy. I'd like to go down the panel and have everyone introduce themselves so we get to know them each a little bit better. Hi, I'm Beth Raisman. I am a social worker in my full-time job doing work with families who provide foster care. And also, I'm a volunteer with the Alliance for Therapy Dogs, and so I'm part of a pet therapy team for the last five years or so. My name is Jackie Ashley, and I am a semantic psychotherapist, an equine-facilitated psychotherapist. My business is while-at-heart therapy, and I work with horses and people out in nature with creative arts therapies and body-based work with trauma. Hi, my name is Kerry Karner, and I'm the peer support supervisor for Colorado Mental Wellness Network. I've been a peer support professional for the last 12, 13 years, and in a lead role and a supervisory and training role as well. Hello, my name is J.J. Aragon. I'm currently getting ready to train as a peer support professional. And my peer support experiences include I'm a sponsor in a 12-step program. I am a leader in our National Federation of the Blind of Greeley, and I have master's work in counseling and clinical mental health counseling. I'm Michael Overby. I'm a canine partner energy coach, author and energy healer. I work with men to create a better lives for themselves, utilizing their thoughts. I'd like to take this time to thank everyone for joining us, both online and in studio. We also have Quinn, who's helping us with the technology piece of this. So the format of today is I'm just going to ask some random questions. Well, they're not random, but I'm going to randomize the questions, and it's going to be in a popcorn type style. So I'm going to just ask questions from both our animal experts and our peer support experts to see how we can integrate both peer support and animal services to better help our community, especially in these times when we have found ourselves more isolated and having difficulties finding community. So the first question I'd like to ask Kerry. Kerry, what drove you to pursue a career as a peer support professional? Good question. Thanks for asking that. I'm a person who was very fortunate to get into recovery very young. And after 20 years, I ended up falling out of recovery and becoming homeless again. Struggled to get back into recovery from both substance misuse and mental health, emotional health stuff. And when I got back into recovery, I had to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. And I had a past career in the IT business for 20 years, and yet that wasn't my love anymore. What did I do for free and for fun? I went to Denver Health, the adult psych ward. You know, I'm also part of a recovery group. And so it's like, how can I be helpful to people with backgrounds similar to mine? And I will just, this is one of my taglines that I use. I am so blessed and so lucky. I happen to think that those of us that are peer support professionals have the best jobs in the world. Because many of the things that would disqualify us from most jobs, they're the things that qualify us for this one. If I didn't have lived experience with substance use trauma, homelessness, co-occurring stuff, I wouldn't be able to do this job and develop a genuine connection with people. So that's actually why I got into this 13 years ago. Thank you so much, Carrie. Thank you. My next question is from Michael. Michael, how did you become involved with animals and connectivity? I've had dogs most of my life. The first dog I had when I was a kid basically kept me from committing suicide. I didn't realize until later the effect that he actually had on me after some family trauma. And years and years later, I had another big death in my family, and that was for my own brother. And after that happened, I was actually able to grieve all these amazing things. And this incredible dog there with me who actually helped me heal and help others around me heal during this event. And it just opened me up to the possibilities. So I started training every energy-healing modality I could find and working with other dogs and horses. I decided I wanted to help other men learn to create a better life for themselves. Thank you, Michael. It's amazing what you do. Thank you. So, J.J., the question goes to you. What experiences have you had in a leadership role? All right. Thank you, Tracy. So my leadership journey, I think, began when I joined the National Federation of the Blind about eight years ago when I was 21. I sort of just got thrown into it. We needed a chapter in Fort Collins. The National Federation of the Blind were an advocacy and social group supporting blind people. Nationally, my work is in Colorado. And they needed a chapter in Fort Collins, and they just said, you know, would you want to join? And I was like, okay, I wasn't really sure what I was getting myself into. So I have, I've been, held several office positions, and right now I'm president of the Greeley Chapter. And so from there, in that area, I've learned about, you know, leading a group of people to do different advocacy work, political work, social work. And that's been definitely a new world for me. I'm more about emotions and human connections. And then when I joined my 12-step group three years ago, it'll be three years in recovery for me in February, I, about a year in, I started sponsoring. And then I started my own meeting a year ago. And in both, I've really been able to, you know, as a leader more or less to my sponsors, I've really been able to develop my one-on-one connection with, you know, each sponsor and really tailor, you know, how we work the steps, the 12 steps, and learning how to make, tailor to individuals in that area. And then with the meeting, I've really learned a lot about balancing what my vision is for, you know, this particular meeting and still meeting, you know, the needs of those in the group. And that's been a beautiful journey. And I've been able to bring, I think, I'm most proud of my leadership in that group. I've been able to bring, you know, so many together from around the world and we get to, you know, share in our recovery and just, and grow together. And I also did some worksheets for that group. So, and I think in those two areas, three areas, I really developed as a leader in several different ways, I would say. Thank you. Thank you. I think it's amazing how you can take leadership roles from one area and bleed it over into other areas of your life, how your life experiences can be integrated and you can take experiences from, like, the National Federation of the Blind and help it grow your experiences in recovery work. So I think that's beautiful. Thank you, JJ. Jackie, what are some benefits of animal-assisted activities on the human-animal bond? Well, most, all of my work is with horses. So sort of like Michael, I always say that when I grew up, my horse saved my emotional life. So how animals, particularly horses, help people recover or heal is, I always say in the presence of a horse, you become embodied. I mean, they're large, often thousand-pound animals, but they're prey animals, not predators. So they have a keen sense of their surroundings and their capacity to be safe and they're connected to each other as animals in a herd. So when folks come in their presence, it's like they have to kind of wake up, so to speak. You know, they're kind of like, wow, okay? My feet are on the ground. I'm looking at this big animal. So it helps naturally for people to get out of their thoughts, their mind, their perseverating worries and fears and sadness and all that, and they come into the present moment. And being a therapist for many decades now, I've been lucky I haven't had to work a lot in an office. So, and I've found that, you know, being outside in nature, I always say mother nature can hold anything, any trauma, any pain, any grief, and then in the presence of these amazing animals, the horse, you're just brought into the present moment. Horses are beautiful, they're big, they're graceful. They sort of embody a lot of our longing of how we would like to be in the world. So it's a natural capacity to be brought in the present moment out of our perseverating thoughts and pain and all that. And in relationship with an animal, not a human, because a lot, for a lot of the folks that I work with, that capacity to feel safe and to trust and to be comfortable with other humans has been, you know, damaged. But a horse or any other animal, you know, they don't intentionally try to hurt you. They don't judge you, they don't laugh at you, they don't care what you look like, what you're dressed as, you're economic, you know, they are just there totally for you. And that's foundationally appealing. Yeah, yeah. It's like non-judgmental mindfulness. Present moment, yep. Yeah, they're like the kings and queens of mindfulness. Yeah. That's a nice way to put it. Yeah. Get the little crowns. Yeah. So Beth, for you I have two questions. So first, what kind of training do animals need to be a therapy animal? Second, what kind of training do handlers need to work therapy animal? So I can only speak to dogs, because that's my experience, which is they're a little more chamber. And what she needed, first and foremost, is to be composed, polite, non-aggressive, calming, not easily startled by anything. And my dog in particular came up as a rescue, but she was two, and she just came with those things already embodied in her. It wasn't anything I did, but she showed up that way. And after I had had her for about three years, I thought, I don't know what this pet therapy thing is, but I think she can do it, because she has this effect on people. And I would go out in public, and people would just launch over and drop to her gentle nature. And I thought there was a way that maybe we could manifest this and help others. So we began the training together to become a pet therapy team. And so she had the qualities, and I thought I could probably learn the qualities of how to handle her. So the training really involved understanding the pits of the environment you might be in and how to best work within those environments to make people comfortable to do and balance things like in art. For example, my dog's seven-pound, so she's not going to be permitted to be jumping on furniture, bed, in a hospital situation, or she's not a lap dog, so we're not going to be allowed to go to a lap, hopefully. So there are just certain things that are expected. And as a handler, you are supposed to make sure that that all stays in line, making sure she's on the leash, making sure that if there was an incident, it's automatically recorded to a supervisor, for example, if she hit somebody, which she never would, but if she did, that you're recording those things. So the handler is always very aware of their dog, and they're aware of how their dog is feeling. Is she stressed or her ears back? Is she pancing? We don't want it to be a stressful experience for her, so we're always trying to be really in tune with our dog and be giving her, in my case, her positive reinforcement. So really, the handler's dog is more so to present the vehicle, which is the dog as kind of the vehicle for communicating with whoever might need her calming nature and her therapy. So I'm sort of saw myself as more the observer and her as more the link between myself and the person. Yeah, she's amazing. Yeah, she is amazing, and as Tracy knows, unfortunately, very, very suddenly, she has to raise her own Christmas Eve. She's really a guest. More than a million Tracy knows, right? Yeah. And it's been tough, but I feel like I have another dog in my future, as I'm going to do. Thank you so much for your service and for her. Yeah. She was a gift. Yeah. Tracy's bowing to her. Okay, so this is a question for all of you now that you've all answered one question. Do you see value in combining peer support with animals that did activity? So who wants to go first? I'll jump in, because I know it works. Okay. Because for maybe a decade, I worked with mental health partners, and they had a peer support program. And that peer support person was the person who actually brought a group of people out to see the horses every Thursday for two and a half hours. And, you know, without Steve, folks couldn't have gotten there. I mean, it was a big ordeal. I mean, I know he got up, crack a dawn, you know, drove to, I think, from Boulder to Longmont to get the van. And then, you know, picked everybody up and got them in the van and brought them to the barn. And, you know, did all the notes for Medicaid and did all the paperwork so that the program could be, you know, the program could run. So without a peer support specialist, we don't have it anymore because the mental health partners cut the program. And so it kind of fell apart, because folks can't, you know, a lot of folks can't drive. Or if they can, they don't have a car. And, you know, just to get to the group, I mean, one person took a bus from Boulder to Longmont, met folks at Sherman Center, I think, and then got there. So, you know, without peer support specialist, and again, you know, he'd been through everything you all have talked about to the point where, you know, now he was being of service and he loved it. So in some ways it's essential, an essential part of being able to bring, at least in my world, get people to the barn and to get the funding necessary for the groups to work. Okay. Yeah. Thank you for talking about experience. Yeah. And I'll jump in for just a moment as someone with zero professional experience. But I can tell you that, at least in my case, my now ex-wife and I had a retired racing greyhound. And I, like you, Michael, give hero the retired racing greyhounds a lot of credit for helping keep me alive when sometimes I didn't want to. It was also very helpful in, when I was having trouble taking care of myself when I was too overwhelmed, somehow in my head, hero had to get walked every day. Exactly. So it was, even if it was, I'm just going to soak my head in the sink and then put a hat on and take the dog for a walk. When we had a backyard with doggy doors, there was no etched. But in my mind, I think that using animal assisted therapy in combination with peer support professionals for some people is a natural match. It's not to be for everybody. Right. Not for every peer support professional, not for every person that we're privileged to serve. But when there's the match, I could see there being... Magic. Yeah, magic. That's the right way to put it. That's not an evidence-based practice, though. Neither is kindness and compassion. Oh, I know about that. Yeah. No, I think that's why we call it trauma-informed care. If you can find the right people with the right animals, with the right population, people can feel safe with animals. You mentioned about dogs, and I'm very sorry for your loss. We were going to do that with hero, but he ended up getting bone cancer. And so that curtailed it. But they don't care what you look like. They don't care what you do for your living. They don't care how much money you make. You feed them. You give them a little love. One condition will love that. Best deal in town. So people that can connect with the animals that way, it can also form a bond between the peer supporter and the person they're privileged to serve. So they can assist us in allowing us to practice our craft in a more skillful way. Mary, you speak to the fact that everyone has a different path, a different journey, a different way to recover. Yeah. And so the more options, the better. Yes. You know, I mean, I never want to be about us versus them. I don't think peer supporters replace anything. I think they add value to other relationships as part of the support team. They're an adjunct. Yeah. Everyone works together. It's collaborative. The more ingredients you put in a pizza, the better it tastes. Exactly. More and more ingredients. Exactly. So if we can assist and translate and be open to people's multiple paths to help them find their path and be supportive, that's why we're peer supporters. We may be in leadership roles in some way, but we're actually with the people we're privileged to serve, we don't lead. Right. We walk beside. Exactly. And we ask a lot of questions. Thank you. Anyone else? I want to actually grab that thread that Carrie just put out. I think everyone's talked about this. Unconditional love or unconditional positive regard is, you know, in all my areas, you know, in the master's work, in the 12 step work, we really talk about that unconditional love or unconditional positive regard, unconditional friendship. And what it really boils down to is, no matter what I do, I know, and my experience with animals is with my cat, with my partner's guide dog, with my, when I was a kid and my dad left, I had two cats right after that. So anyway, coming back to the unconditional feeling, I'm just going to umbrella that, what it really boils down to is, no matter what I do, no matter if my grades are up, no matter if I don't want to get out of bed, no matter what it is I'm doing, my animals are going to love me no matter what. And that unconditional feeling is so, so, it's such a cornerstone in any recovery work, in any work with trauma. And I can say, you know, from my own trauma, my own childhood trauma, it's still hard for me to let unconditional love in. And it's still, you know, sometimes it's still hard for me to believe in it. And so with working with animals that just naturally do it, they don't have to think about it. They don't have to learn about it. They don't have to, you know, they got it made already. I think with peer support and animals, giving, you know, in 12 Step we call it experience, strength and hope. It truly is experience, strength and hope. You have the experience of being unconditionally loved by an animal and the strength of that and the hope that says, okay, unconditional love is possible and I can be worthy of it. I think that's where I see that connection happening between peer support and working with animals is that experience, strength and hope. Thank you, Kay. So beautiful. Anyone else? Just taking back to your work, J.J. Settle and Kerry as well, you know, there seems to be sometimes a limitation in regard to the human connection. Like, we can do so much to connect with each other, but when I brought a dog into that scenario, especially during a lot of office work with my dog, sometimes there are no words and you bring in this animal and the healing and calming effect that she could have in these very distressing and very sad instances where maybe someone is just playing and the family is there and there are really no words to be spoken, but when she would lay down on her back and the family would form a circle around her and scratch her back and people would start to share memories of that person. It was this remarkable vehicle that if I was just there by myself trying to help this family, it wouldn't have happened. And so there is this sort of un-speakable power that animals seem to bring. And it's really a beautiful thing and I am so glad that I've been able to have that experience as someone who was gifted with a dog like that, that could have that kind of healing power and impact on people. It truly is a family to me to watch. I've called that universal beneficial presence. They don't even have to do anything. Just being there is a beneficial presence and especially it's okay to be silent in certain situations and it's much easier when you have that wonderful beneficial presence there. And they always will offer it no matter what. They're always going to be there with it. Well, there is scientific evidence that shows that just being with animals raises your feel-good hormone, oxytocin, and lowers your stress hormone, cortisol. So it is like a natural medication, which is cheaper than buying it, pharmaceutical. And no bad side effects. And it lowers your blood pressure, lowers your heart rate. So all kinds of medical documentation. Just looking up in the scientific journals. You know, if anybody has seen Shrek 2 with puts and boots, that little happy cat face, that is based in reality. That releases the oxytocin. And you know, my partner's dog, oh my gosh, her oxytocin eyes. Oxytocin eyes. I call them oxytocin eyes. That's like, what is that song about blue eyes or, I don't know, never mind. There's a lot of songs about blue eyes. Oxytocin eyes. We shouldn't make a song. Yeah. Did anyone else want to chime in on the animals that did and beer support? Yeah, I'll chime in real quick. I think for a lot of folks they don't understand that there are other ways to gain access to these types of services. And whether it's a companion animal that they may already have at home or in a more professional setting, there are things out there for you. You want to speak on that? And I'm just going to look and start asking. Yeah, animals bring something that we still can't even quantify. We like to look at the medical literature and look at the journals and the scientific data of the Human Animal Bond Research Institute Institute for Animal and Human Connection. People are doing great stuff, but there's more. It's deeper. Why do you smile when you look at a dog? That's an instant change in your energy. Instantaneous. You didn't have to do a thing. So why stop there? If you don't have an animal, the neighbor has an animal. Hey, can I pet your dog? There's other ways. You can also volunteer at the shelters. They are always looking for volunteers. You can go to the dog parks. Just watch the dogs. You can go to the barns and help out cleaning stalls. They're always looking for help, aren't they? Yeah. You can go to petting zoos. What are some other options? Watch the squirrels. Count the birds. You want to get mindful. That's a meditation in its own. Exactly. You don't have to send them a pillow or stir in a candle. They've been taking a walk around the neighborhood. People usually have dogs out. There are people who are at home who have animals who may not be able to get out and walk their animals. There are neighbors in your community who are stuck at home. Maybe they're sick. Maybe they hurt themselves. Maybe they're elderly. If they need help, you can volunteer to walk their dogs. I will be the millennial here and say, I know it's not the real thing, but there's also YouTube videos in terms of watching. Oh, yeah. If you're at home unable to really access a dog, the next best thing is to do a video. Watch a video. This is true. And even fish. Just watch the whole video. That's why they have them in doctor's offices. Exactly. Because they calm people down. Here's another question for everyone. What are some activities that might happen at an animal assisted therapy? Either with horses or with dogs, or, you know, when we were in Virginia, we said cat chat. We would go to a cat cafe and just sit there while the cats would roam around. Because some people haven't been into cats. Right? I'm one of them. Yeah. JJ likes cats. So what are some activities that could happen? There's a special forces operator that I work with. He's retired from the military 20 years in. He's seen and done things I can't even imagine. But in the presence of his dog, he can access parts of himself that he would never let. His wife, his parents, his friends see. He can break into these parts of himself and cry and heal. When his last dog died, I held this guy. I don't know how long. I just cried in my arms. And this is a guy you could take out. It's pink, right? He's just an amazing, tough man. And this dog accessed parts of him that no one else ever could. The therapist ever got through. He wouldn't allow it. Now, his family members could get through. He wouldn't allow it. So there's a key. There's an access. And I can't know if it was so well or something better. They have a different key to us. We're actually holding it, but they help us find it. And one of the powerful things about the work that I do is I have a particular passion for doing groups of people, though I do one-on-one. But the group experience with a horse, and I do and have for over a decade now worked with groups of women with sexual trauma. One of the activities that is so wonderful is when two women are with one horse and grooming the horse. And then they just begin to talk, you know? And it's a safe way to talk. You don't have to look at somebody and you're moving. As a somatic therapist, movement is life. You're doing this repetitive movement. You're connected to your body. There's another human there, and humans are pretty scary for people who have been traumatized. So the activity of having this 1,000-pound warm, soft, beautiful, strong being that you are giving comfort to by brushing, because the horses usually love it. Otherwise they wouldn't just stand there and talking to each other is one of the most powerful experiences in my groups. I just had someone talking to me about it yesterday. Great. So just thinking back about, like, so we've talked a lot about the animal experience. Let's look a little bit more about the peer support professional. Carrie, can you tell us a little bit about how someone will become a peer support specialist? Like the certification. Tracy, I apologize. Could I answer the... Oh, yeah, absolutely. The activity. Absolutely. One thing I was going to point out, too, is play. Playing with animal is so... So my cat... Well, let me back up. In Adult Children of Alcoholics, the 12-step program, we do a lot of inner child work. And that involves, you know, as a child going through trauma, I shut my playful, joyful, you know, spontaneous child away. And so getting back in touch with my inner child and my inner children has been a big piece of recovery. And so when my cat starts meowing at me and she wants her... She has no interest in cat toys. She wants ribbons and packing straps. But when she comes to me and, you know, she wants to play, I just get to lose myself and, you know, just waving that ribbon around, trying new things. If I move it this way, what's she going to do? And watching her jump and just play. And getting in touch. And that helps me get in touch with the spontaneous, you know, happy-go-lucky little girl that went into hiding as a child. So I think that's... Play is definitely so important to me. Thank you for interrupting me. Yeah, that was important. Thank you. So I'm just going to say, play and fun is vastly underrated. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And especially as someone in recovery from a variety of things, colicone disorders, learning how to have fun again is huge. I can remember one night looking out my window when I was back in recovery a couple of years and it was winter. It was snowing. And the snow was sparkling on the trees with the lights. And I'm going, oh, my God. And then my unskillful adult stepped in and said, Carrie, it's just light on snow. What's the big deal? And I wanted to smack that adult. Yeah. Because I think having fun. And that's especially true with recovery in general. If everybody thinks that, oh, I'm going to be in recovery. My life is over. I'll be dull, glum, and boring. I'll be sad all the time. Sad all the time. Mm-hmm. Nobody's going to like me. It's like, no, the world opens up. I've done way more things that I can remember in my life in recovery than prior to getting into recovery. Yep. And you had the question about how do you become a peer support professional? Yes, the certification process. So Colorado Mental Wellness Network actually does training for peer support professionals. And we're one of the approved trainers for the state certification. It's a three week course. I don't know all the specifics. When I got into this, it didn't exist. My training was actually two full semesters at Denver Community College with someone. But we have a very well designed both a screening process and training process that includes a lot of role plays and actually real world experience. So there is a misconception. We believe that if you're in recovery, you're automatically going to be a wonderful peer support professional. And I can tell you that's not the case. Some people are so tied to a single path of recovery. This worked for me, so it must work for you. And a peer support professional needs to be open to a variety of paths. The other thing that's really important to know is some people think they want to get into it because they're going to tell their story. And that's actually not what a peer support professional does. We use our lived experience. And we share the appropriate bit at the appropriate time with the appropriate person for the appropriate reason. And that is really critical. We learn to ask, we have to have some respectful curiosity about the people that we serve. So it's having lived experience. It's combining that with really good state-of-the-art training. And then going into a work environment that's actually prepared to have a peer support professional. And not just we got money on a grant and it says we need to hire a peer supporter, but there are lots of things that have to be in place. The other thing that's important for people that want to be peer support professionals to realize is that this is a profession. It's a job with a career path. You can start as a peer support professional, go to a peer support lead, go to a peer support supervisor. Eventually we plan on taking over the world. Oh, God, I said that out loud. It cuts out. It paints you in the brain. It secrets out. It's in the brain. And it's genuinely wanting to be supportive of someone without thinking we're going to fix them. We're going to make them better. I don't have that much power. Self-determination. It is. We believe in self-determination. Being in touch with harm reduction, housing first philosophy with people. And then this is the other passion of my life because it was part of my recovery when I looked back. And that's having a genuinely trauma-informed attitude toward the people we're privileged to serve. So are we going to be able to create a safe environment for people? Are we going to be willing to build trust over time? Are we going to offer genuine choice in a collaborative relationship? So that they feel empowered to walk their path. Those are the things that Colorado Mental Wellness Network really focuses on during training and during the practical application of that training. So I don't know if that answered what you wanted. It did. Thank you. I'm very excited now. Thank you. So, let's see. Michael, what are some places that you've worked with people with your dog? Like some environments? Outside. If at all possible. Obviously it wasn't offended. I love water. And running water seems to be particularly powerful. No matter what, the river is still running. So it provides a sense of constant energy. And it's very calm. A lot of people just love the sound of running water. People have little fountains in their homes or meditate to an apple with the sound of running water. And being in nature by itself is huge. But being near a body of water, that's moving. What do you think about the water? What is the energy force that makes the water so powerful? The water is completely malleable. It doesn't matter the temperature, it's still water. We call it ice, but it's still water. And if you think about it, that's what we come from. Nothing exists without it, right? So it's powerful and it's soft at the same time. It can be hard. Wow, that's a great image. Yes. Thank you. Yes, let me see what can I ask you. How did you become... Can you differentiate the difference between a pet, an emotional support animal, a therapy animal, and sort of, you know... So a pet... Runs the whole damn it. I thought you were going to say runs the house. We'll run the house. You know, I have always, until hiding, my therapy dog had very unruly animals, dogs in particular, who had very poor boundaries and who just got into everything, ate everything, ruled the house, but not in the best way. And so a pet generally doesn't have... There aren't necessary definitions around these areas. Your pet can act in any different way. When we're going into talking more about a service animal, for example, my understanding is a service animal is specifically trained to help somebody with a disability. And this animal is approved by the ADA and, you know, can help someone who is hearing or vision impaired, PTSD. You know, just a lot of different conditions can travel with this, and can come into businesses and fly on airplanes has very special distinction this way, or this is my understanding you can speak more about this. Emotional support animal is not an animal that's been approved by the ADA, but is there to provide mental health support to someone who may be struggling with a diagnosis. Usually this is something prescribed by a mental health professional and provides that little bit of emotional support for somebody who has experienced trauma who has experienced anxiety and depression. And then a therapy dog, there needs to be specific training around, you know, for both the handler and the dog and the team together, and this is usually done through an accredited organization like the along with the therapy dogs, pet partners is another one, where you actually get that certification and that distinction to go into schools, to hospitals, to support groups, to help in another vehicle for providing assistance and therapy to people. So there are different distinctions for each of those different categories. Some of it is what it takes to become certified. Some of it is, like I said, the ADA is only specific to service animal stuff. That's kind of the way I understand it. Very good. Very well done. Yeah. So the very fine point is the service animal can only be a dog or a pony. And they are specific to one person and that person has to have a diagnosed disability and that dog or a pony has to mitigate that disability. And they are the only animals that are protected under the ADA. And they are the only animals that have accessibility to go into places. Emotional support animals do not. Emotional support animals can get HUD vouchers, like you said, from a prescribed, from a mental health professional because they can live with the person if they have a mental health diagnosis. But they do not have full access to going to stores or anything like that. Can I offer another distinction between ESAs and pets? Yes. From what I'm hearing to you, it's like a pet. They might be comforting. They might come to you and lay their head on your knee or be with you when you need them. But they still, when they're done, they're done. They're still going to do their own thing. First, they feel like an ESA. They still have that. Like my cat, Courtney, I do have my GP, there we go. My GP did write a note, so she's claimed as an emotional support animal. And the reason I'm okay with that is because she will come when I call her, which is kind of awesome. Yeah, she's an incredible cat. If I drop something, she'll walk to it so I can find it. I remember the first night we got her. I had a PTSD nightmare that night, and she came and sat with me and heard. So I guess one difference I'm hearing is an emotional support animal might be more attentive and more willing to stick by you versus a pet might be a little more aloof. Or even more free-spirited as the word I'm looking for. My daughter also has a cat that's an ESA, and it's very attentive to her. So I think you're right, JK. And I was talking to a friend about this recently because she's trying to find housing, and I was like, could you claim your dog as an ESA? And she's like, no, because my dog is nothing like Courtney. She does her own thing. And so I guess that might be a distinction. I'm really thinking about the general public here when I say this because I feel like that line is not always very clear. And a lot of people will be like, oh, it's my ESA, but then you have a dog running around. Not really being attentive. I think it's very important that the public be educated about the difference between these two. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, Beth. Thank you, JJ. So I think we're coming to the close of our discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts? Like burning desires is what we call it. Anything you want to get off your chest. Any thoughts about this experience? This has been fantastic. I think this is a more common place. Showing people that there are different ways to access help. Whether it's from a mental health professional or someone who works with an animal, both. There's help out there, guys. Tracy, there's one question that you shared with me beforehand, and Michael's kind of alluding to it. Breaking down those social stigmas and those social barriers. Okay. You want to speak on that real quick? Sure. To mental health. You know, I think I've noticed in our society, and quite frankly, well, no. I'd say in our society, kind of on maybe a global level, we're becoming more informed about mental well-being and mental health and trauma work. But I think what really draws me and appears support work is, again, it is that lived experience. And when we have panels like this, it's saying you're not alone. And like Michael's saying, there is help. There are so many avenues out there to get help. And I feel like a lot of people still think, oh, I can only get a therapist, and it's going to cost me an arm and a leg. Or I can only do this or that. And I guess panels like this and discussions like this keep the water flowing. Keep the water flowing that, again, says, oh, I'm not alone and I'm going to be okay. And I think that's what we need more than anything in the world. Thank you, Jacob. And there's no shame in asking for help. And I think then, it doesn't matter on what level that is or what experience you've had, or if you have to be vulnerable and not make yourself vulnerable enough to ask for help and realize there are safe people out there and safe animals out there who will make your experience of opening up feel like you did the right thing. And I think you guys are all providing that. I want to thank everyone for coming. Thank you all. And if anyone out there is interested in Rives Phoenix Rives and what we do, here is our information. You can access us at our website, which is Rives Phoenix Rives.org. You can get our QR code or call us at 303-652-0468. Thank you so much for joining us. And we look forward to hearing from you. Thank you. Thank you all.