 Hmm. No, no, we're live and no life Yeah episode four with infinite bra Frank Yang This time on the nature of mind I think we've been talking about a nature of mind for the last 10 years But this one is about the nature of my open nature of the mind Frank I Feel like it'll be good for us to just dive right into this so when We approach this question. What is the nature of mind? Typically what immediately confuses people is That they're they're not they're no longer looking for a thing Mm-hmm and this used to be the biggest confusion for people is that they're not looking for a thing so when when you start looking at the nature of mind you immediately become Infused into what looks like a big Big Cloud of Concepts thoughts ideas your name your career your family your ambitions all of these Attributes to your identity Basically is what sort and these are all like symbols and concepts and stuff like that And so then now you're already playing with the formless You're playing with symbols and concepts and identity and ideas and there's no it's not like a pen That's a thing that you can point at so so Many of the of the traditions talk about this especially the Buddhist tradition Dzogchen and Vashriana The nature of mind being an empty cognizance so I Would like for Frank to reflect to us about sort of where I'll speak about this for a moment and we'll see how Frank Reflects to this so once you do turn inward and you begin seeing that formlessness the first sort of Way of recognizing that formlessness is that it's There's it's an emptiness or like a spaceness to it likes Like space But yet there's a cognizant quality to it where you have the power to know So mine is both empty space like and is suffused with Awareness this quality the power to know to cognize So let's have you Reflect to us sort of how you see that initial turn towards the nature of mind Away from things and towards this formless and then seeing it as this sort of this empty cognizance Yeah, so you have to first distinguish between Thoughts so you have to first sort of clarify what we mean by the mind because That's why I used to use the word mind a lot, but I don't use that anymore ever since like the big bang I stop using word mine so much. It's because People get confused because when you say the mind they start to think about the brain or even thoughts and if you look at thoughts Thoughts are not formless even though at the ultimate level everything is formless because formal emptiness are identical But before you become non dual there is a distinction between Form and emptiness so thoughts on the sort of relative level are still objects. They're still Forms so when you say mine people before they glimpse this ultimate nature of Experience whatever this is everywhere They're gonna start thinking about the mind the personal mind the ego mind the brain they immediately go into their head and they start looking at the thoughts and It gets really confusing because Let's just say I've never ever if I'm in the state right now The clinical natural state even the natural state that the term is really confusing because people are like, oh the natural state I'm in a natural state right now but the natural state before you actually access Non-dual awareness and the natural than clinical natural state before that in the natural state of non-dual awareness is actually This that's a quantum difference to it the analogy I use is watching the screen versus being in the screen But anyway, that's another point the nature of mind so If I've never read the definition of mine on a dictionary and then Someone tell me hey, this is the mind that they show me the dictionary and they start explaining what the mind is I would not think this has anything to do with the mind or the brain at all because This experience right here right now I Would never for a million years think that it's the product of the brain or the mind. I don't think it's product of I Don't know. I can't really describe it. I wouldn't even say it's the product of God It's just there's no words to describe it at all. So That's why empty cognizance is kind of like a pretty good term. Yeah because it's formless It's colorless shapeless older list has no depth no dimension No with it's like space. It's not really exactly like space because space Is sort of still something Still is still some form that arises us the manifestation of this clinical empty cogniz and He has no time Even infinity it doesn't really try to describe it either But I use the word infinity a lot because it's the closest to it in my right to experience because it's boundless It's completely still Spontaneous so First we have to do I Think the first thing we have to do is clarify what you mean by the mind So to avoid confusion of when we talk about this stuff and people look at it start looking at the thoughts and start Examining thoughts because you can't you can't never get to the the bottom of what the mind clinical mind is by looking at by using the mind You can only understand the mind the nature of mind by transcending the mind That's why all those philosophers for like in your decades and centuries Are arguing over the nature of mind and consciousness But it doesn't seem they seem like they're going to circle in a sense because they're trying to use logic They're trying to use concept. They're trying to use the mind to understand the mind They use a logic to understand logic use concept to understand concept and that's never going to work because what you know Go del south do you really completeness? You know if you use the system to look at itself, there's always going to be a blind spot That's why you have to go above the level of whatever system you're in to be able to understand it And then by this point that even the war understanding is misses the point because it's not really Something that you understand because understanding presupposes that there's some kind of like conceptual elements in there. It's more like just No, I think knowing is a better word. Just like a Comprehending or apprehending apprehending like the the nature of reality Mind I'm going to use all those words interchangibly reality mind consciousness awareness into college to me they're all the same word or some people like to call it God or love or whatever, but There might be a little too many connotations in those words as well, so The way that reality or experience Just experience the way that experience just experiences itself the way that reality just knows itself Comprehends itself Yeah, perfect. Probably a better way to describe what's going on, right? Yeah. Yes Okay, so there's another way to approach this to be helpful for people is to Sort of inquire logically How reality is comprehending itself So how does the universe comprehend itself? and When you begin going down that line of reasoning you start recognizing that okay, so mind in this way that we're describing it is how the universe is comprehending itself so if we are the Unbounded pure potential that we can never come to the end of exploring And we are eternal in that sense infinite in that sense Then this universe is a manifestation to explore some of that infinite potential and The way that we are comprehending the exploration the play the dance that this universe is the song that it is is through mind all of the complexities from the Crazy Amounts of planets that are orbiting stars that have evolved life all the way to specifically this planet and the 10 million species that are on it the geopolitical relations between the US and China the The name all of the different unique name that each one of these pieces of life had ascribed to it and so Now you're beginning to kind of turn You're turning the fabric of reality on itself to ask about its nature So when we ask about the nature of mind We're basically turning the the fabric of reality on itself We're rather than being on the stage and just doing the play now We're wondering well, what is the point of like if we took the perspective of the audience watching the play? Why is the play happening and how was the play being comprehended? How is it being understood and so so then if it seems like the big Switch for people as they undergo this process of understanding, okay I'm getting the nature of the universe is comprehended by mind and then they're like, okay But now mind is not a thing. The mind is not a pen. It's not a marker. It's not an object Instead mind is this weird turn inward and so I just want to clarify quick because when people turn inward they typically hit things like thought and name and identity and emotion and belief and Experience and all these things so you said that thought you When you get to these advanced levels you can objectify thought you can turn it into an object but that's nothing for But for most people would you say that the beginning of like being aware of a thought arising isn't itself Formless isn't it when the thought arises in the beginning stages? You can see that as a form less arising like a cloud appearing. Is that also how you view it? At first at first for me thoughts are quite solidify when I started first started meditating I wouldn't think of thoughts as formless like I would when I observe thoughts. I they were just like objects to me When I say objectify, I mean just identifying from it not that yeah, it's not that I'm turning into an object Well, it is kind of like that, but it's more just like this identify you object Just like how you know when you look at some people criticize her movies for objectifying women You do those things you do those bad things to women because you look at women like objects You look at them as you know separate from what you are that's for me is objectifying and the whole process of understanding the nature of mind For me or at least that the more advanced level is to objectify everything even you know even the subject Even awareness even consciousness thoughts feelings emotions side sound the whole world Once you objectify everything you're a field of experience. There's no more room for subject the subject completely vanish And when the subject vanish the object also vanish and there's no more duality and that's non duality But when you first are when I first started to meditate I watched my thoughts I honestly I didn't think much of it. I wasn't analyzing thoughts or other objects other formless Is this the nature of mind or the which I was just like, okay, this is my thoughts. I'm watching it because that's what I do in meditation Um So I can't speak for everyone but the reason why I mentioned thoughts are like objects and they're also forms because there is a difference between this empty cogniz this empty uh cognizing Formless, you know, just the pure knowing the essence of it And uh the manifestations Yes, ultimately they're the same because ultimately the source and appearance are the manifesto and the manifesto are one Uh, but at the midway stage, uh, it's important to make that distinction And how like okay thoughts are also just formed. So no different from objects in the underwear real world Perfect. So so let's let's do this and let's do this again Where we initially we make the turn from these quote physical objects To what is a little bit more formless which is the thought or Or an identity or emotion or belief or experience And then the next question as you sort of become observant of those More formless. So you've shifted away from the physical objects towards something that's more formless Now you're becoming you're becoming you're gaining meta cognition So that's another probably very important Mainstream word for this I'll put that down as well for people You're talking about now. Um, so yeah thoughts, uh, whatever it's in the in the mind are a little bit more I wouldn't say I would call it a less solidified So someone at one of my clients asked me what is the point of the spiritual path? Can you describe the spiritual path in one sentence? And I was like you were trying to uh, um Make everything you experience less and less solidified So a pen A object out there in the real world is very solidified But when you start looking inward, um Or when you scan the body at first the body is very solidified It's an object But once you start doing it to do like repulsion on meditation and you try to you know scan the body Once you start to put awareness on the body start to dissolve First it was solidified and then it becomes like liquid That's when you enter the drawn us and then it becomes like uh smoke and then air and then finally the empty currents But they realize actually they're all the same thing because form into this at one. So you shift back and forth um Okay, so let's Let's keep breaking it down by stages I see that you're you're going you're you're you're getting you're spreading the whole spectrum right off of Each one of the sort of trains of of beautiful expression of yours So again, so we made we made the shift from the these more physical objects Towards what is more formless, which is a a thought or a symbol or a concept or an emotion or an experience And so what you're doing is you're gaining meta cognition Right here meta cognition because what's what's happening is you're becoming aware of your thinking And when you become aware of your thinking You're in a sense. You're gaining some sovereignty. You're gaining will you're gaining choice You're gaining awareness from what used to be more scripted style of behaviors to something that in a sense When you do something as simple as just Take a deep inhalation you feel for a moment. You're like you gain awareness You gain a little bit more insight into what is formless the quality of the power to know Versus when you were fixated on a thought or an object So, okay, so we went from fixated on objects to now fixated on thoughts So now the thoughts are appearing and disappearing like clouds in this empty space like Skyness that we're talking about here as the the nature of mind and so you're gaining Meta cognition you're gaining insight into watching as these clouds appear and disappear And you're not so now this is the key frank. Let me know if you feel like this is the key the word non fixation Would you say that that's sort of the key non fixation there? so Would you say that the key is to not fixate on the appearances? Within mind and then to recognize what is the space in which The appearances appear and disappear. Is that would you say that's key? Yes, that's exactly the distinction I was making earlier how when you are in that space watching thoughts that space is more formless than the thoughts Thoughts become an object in the space And the pen becomes an object in the space Even space itself is arising in that space of non space our time actually the entire universe um for you at least is uh vibrating Out of that space of no space Yeah, yes Okay, so great. So frank just made that further distinction for us So now where you saw this pen as an object this marker as an object You've shifted internally into this kingdom of consciousness of mind within and now you're watching from Here you're watching more and more of your thoughts appear and disappear And you're not fixating on them when they appear and you're recognizing that the the space the mind Essence in which the thoughts appear and disappear in which the In which the marker appears and disappears in that space like Yes, empty both empty. So the space like emptiness of it But then there's also this because when you turn in you notice it's not a thing It's no thing. It's not a thing if right now Not even nothing if you If you just Turn your attention on attention itself You'll notice that whatever mystery or magic that attention or mind is Is not a thing It's no thing and so okay So you have that first and then you have the cognizant quality to it Which means that it has this power to know right now you can go marker Ah power to know marker or power to know thought. I love frank power to know. I love frank So there's a thought or I love water another thought. I will drink water cognizant And so now you have Empty cognizance as this nature of mind and now you might ask the next question around this which is might empty cognizance might This formless power to know this empty formless power to know might that be god That would be the next so that's a that's a That's the distinction between whether that the empty space to know Is really the nature of reality or is it something that's generated by the brain? There's no answer to this. I mean from my direct experience right now. It's not from the brain, but Ha, I mean I take the middle way. It's I mean brain is part of reality Right. See people are some people are like, oh, you can understand the nature of reality because everything is filtered to the brain Uh, everything is created by the brain by the brain, but then brain is part of reality Right. So there there there are actually a few schools to think about a few different ways to think about this One is that okay There is a real world out there and then the brain models that world and enlightenment is just how you model the War exactly as it is quote unquote as it is without any filterings But it's still a model of the world. You can still never really understand or know the world as it is Some people take that stand and there are people who think that consciousness or this empty kindness is the nature of the universe Is that this once you understand the mind you understand the universe because the universe is made up of the mind And there's people that are kind of in between Um, they're like, okay, it's both. Uh, they're co-dependent rising. They're staying in the middle way uh, I would say From direct experience or at least the first time that I glimpsed this, you know, emptiness I was 100 percent certain. This is the nature of the universe. I was like, I've cracked the secret of the universe I think a lot of people have A lot of people think that um, especially the first time they glimpse this thing Uh, you've been very pragmatic and scientific teachers. They will go and be like, oh when I was younger When I was still in the path there were moments in my life where I was so certain that My my my being was completely plugged into the the the eye socket of Yeah, and then that also reminds us of things like the We can even we can even pull that up briefly in our In our images that sort of reminds us of things like Like this where you have How many image It's coming. It's coming. It's coming We have things like Share screen how my hair cut my hair he says That's great. Okay. Here here it is. Here it is Okay, there it is Avalokiteshvara. Oh, yes, the the cosmic octopus exactly Um, so that plays into what frank's saying right now. It's an important visual for people I think a better image is you get rid of the body and there are just the hands and there's just the eyes floating in space Yes, just the eyes Just the eyes and the hands the Yes We should show the picture of uh, the picture that I say you have the card When I when I said that that sort of illustrated like the the sensations of dependent origination. Do you have that? Of course, I do. Yes. Yes. I wish you put that up right now because that that's kind of close to that Pretty close to that as well. Um, or later when we talk about dependent origination I think it's kind of the same but uh, it's a little different. Um, but yeah, anyway, so to answer your question Uh, the people who are a lot of hindu. Yeah that We'll see the space. You see the space The anti-card is the space. Okay, so I would just like to help clarify this for people What frank and I are talking about so And frank correct me if if I'm wrong here, so Is what you're saying that there is when we get to this place of recognizing the nature of mind that There's sort of one way of seeing it which is that well, this is it like this is god infinitely Fractaling itself as creations and then having this ability empty cognizant ability to know the creations And then it's a fractal at this stage because I I would say because there there is no form at all fractals still presupposes like there's some kind of form There's some kind of like breaking down of a bigger form. Um, I would say this How should I put this I would say that if if no one's ever told me anything about like My brain or god, I would say this is the universe as it is Right now in all levels It's not you it's not just like a small fractal of A bigger god. This is it every single being is experiencing exactly this and this is the full thing So it does feel like that. Yeah So We pulled this up on one of our previous shows and we'll just pull it up right now as well So this is where that word um fractal really hopefully helps I mean similar to this to this shirt that that i'm wearing right now But the general idea would be that in every single one of these potential points of on this big empty tablecloth of of god You have these eyeballs on all these points And so this is sort of, you know, one of the ways of of potentially perceiving this is that um, it just takes a fractal like Expression, um, you you could you could say but even that limits infinity anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so because that's A form there there's still eyes and start hands So so exactly so there's infinite amounts of ways to make the power to know it doesn't have to have hands and eyes And similarly it doesn't Have to appear like a fractal. So okay, so now I I I want to anchor us back again so so now you have one one way which is sort of seeing that The empty cognizant nature of mind is one way that infinity expresses itself as the power to know That's one And then two is that there's even that is some sort of like restrictive um way of perceiving what's happening and it in actually um the way that this dream a universal dream substrate works is potentially even more um A quantum mechanical it's even more like zero point energy uh with these quantum fields And then that that's the way that the comprehension is working the comprehension is working as an entire universal decentralized Universalized dream substrate. Is that right frank that that would be the other way of viewing it? Um, I'm a little lost okay So it in one of the options it's a little bit more like this So in one one of the options is a little bit more like If we open this one up and then we put it next to This one as the second one which is more like this So and I I think that these two go a little bit more together than we usually give them credit for so this right here So I feel like these two go together more than they go apart If that makes sense So in one in one example over here where you see my mouse cursor on avalo kiteshvara You have all of the heads and all of the hands and all of the eyes That is the mind essence that is comprehending the nature of reality Okay, and then on this example on the right you have the complete uh Subatomic particle decentralization of The substrate that is reality that is the universe and so I I see these two as one rather than as two But do you see them as as the is this what you meant when you said that there's two different ways of perceiving what the what the nature I think what we're talking about is whether or not this empty congress is the nature of reality or it's the nature of the brain Are we are we looking at the world through a filter of our senses? Or are we really experiencing reality as it is and I don't know If those pictures have anything to do with that I think that's another topic. Okay, let's okay then Let's let's let's let's have what so give me one more time What you just said because if you were for example, if you were to cut my Head off at the neck like they used to do, you know hundreds of years ago um, you would undergo these decapitations and um Um, it would be like you hit the off button on this piece of life. Oh, yes. Yes. That's why we're talking about earlier. Yes Exactly good good good point. Okay. Okay, so Okay, so, um So what what we okay, so let's just what we may come back to this but this These two are more likely One than they are two like That there's yeah, and we we may get back to that but let's stay let's stick with where We were just a moment ago, which is that All dualities get transcended and so the duality of physicalism and consciousness gets transcended Yeah, so Yeah, so so for example this this unit is is dependent on the body as The portal for the unit's perception. Does does that make sense? Yeah, so basically you're talking about whether or not our experience is filtered by this biological organism Uh our perceptions our cognitions Um, the nature is the nature of mind only limited to this me too If if someone kills me would I still experience this empty cogniz? That's what we're talking about and like I said, uh, when I told my friend like the other day Uh, we're talking about the same thing and I was like if someone was to Again, if I if I didn't know anything about science or brains or physics or anything like that or even death or whatever if someone shoots me in the if someone was to threaten me and points it down to me and be like, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna enter me too. I'm going to destroy me too. Basically. I'm going to kill your Your this entity as frankie. I will for sure tell him I'm gonna still gonna have to be conscious from direct experience because that's how conscious that's how That's how from this perspective of non duality how uh, how consciousness is really In a sense apart from the body, but it's also the body is a manifestation of it But let's say if I destroy let's say if I destroy this piece of pillow right here right now I would for sure say that even a normal person who doesn't know anything about spirituality and who hasn't had an awakening Would tell you if this piece of pillow gets destroyed. I will still be conscious Likewise, if someone tells you hey, Frank, I'm gonna destroy your meat suit. I will still tell them I'll be conscious That's only from the context of direct experience right now Let's see if I erase all my memories and all my knowledge about the nature of Biology the nature of brain and nature of physics nature of life and death. I will tell them that I'll tell them to go ahead and destroy my body If I have this, you know, this infinite consciousness right now That's what I'll tell them because from the direct experience. There is no death Okay, so this seems to play into a topic that we could potentially call decentralization and universalization so when you when you shift your identity more and more to this empty cognizance you begin recognizing more and more of yourself as the Um This this infinite Emptiness that gives rise to endless creation and that You and that's suffused with awareness or this this power to know So when your identity shifts away from your finite physical body Towards that which is ineffable and indescribable that powers all of this Basically Maybe that's why frank is saying what he's saying right now that his identity is now more Eternal than it is in his limited Frank meat suit. Is that right frank? Yes, you could say that you could say that. Okay, so now I'm not making a claim about what the nature of mine is or the nature of reality or the two years I'm just saying direct experience. That's why it feels like yes direct experience right now That's why it feels like I can't die Yes. Okay. So so for for me What what feels? More more accurate Is the simultaneity? because when you talk to mainstream and when you Chop off the frank yang head um The simultaneity is that this piece of infinity deactivates While your identity as the source of infinite creation remains So what what you are is this ineffable giving rise to infinity Infinity fucking itself. You're that you are infinity expressing itself. You are that I am that we are all that Whether we know that or not whether we've recognized that or not whether we've become a gnostic being or not but The simultaneity is important where it's like you For the frank yang costume character right now is A pair of the eyeballs on that avalo kitesh vara, you know It's a pair of eyeballs and if you chop off the neck at the at the neck the head The pair of eyeballs deactivates now Now your identity. So do you see the simultaneity where you can describe it as both? Like this individual Okay, okay cool because I know that miss our miss our gaza and much of the Siddharah mishwar and just much much of the ramana that there's there's this loud so there's a lot of A lot of the mystics the greatest mystics have went and identified themselves solely as that absolute solely as that And therefore whenever they would you know do the things like what you were just describing That they would say I know i'm i'm eternal you've assumed me to be a body But i'm not the body and so the simultaneity I feel like is really important where we say that I am both that And I am also Yes, yes Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that that's what we have been going on about the last episodes. Well, how you're talking about how you're both nobody somebody and everybody, you know Because when you when you only identify with the universalization of everything In in a sense, you could say that's also a one side of the extreme That's that's also a duality. Oh, I am not the body. I am not the mind. Are you really? You don't have a body So the harsh sutra the harsh sutra gets to the bottom of this pretty well The harsh sutra is going to call the perfect sutra. It's the sutra that renders all the previous sutra void Right, so it's almost like the uh, it's the sutra that makes you really understand how emptiness is also empty Perform is also form not just emptiness is form form is emptiness So let me just sum up the harsh sutra in a really really easy to understand way There is no body. There is no mind. There is no consciousness. There's no awareness. There's no free will There's no self Yet at the same time there is a body. There is a world. There's the mind. There's consciousness. There's awareness. There's a self There's free will That's true unity right there. Exactly. Yeah That's one of my favorite passages Yeah Yep But that still doesn't explain or answer the question of whether this is the product of uh brain or not But I think we can never know so but if you take the middle way, it's both It's both. I mean the brain can only arrive. That's it. That's just say from the relative level. There is a difference between the brain and the world um The the brain needs the world to manifest itself to and vice versa They need one another exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so It's both it's both and neither There there was a phase in my development where I was really locked into that universality of things Of like the godhead and stuff and you know, the funny thing is Uh, I I think I the the paradox is this The reason why in my content the last like couple months I've been telling people to construct even the background to construct even consciousness to god consciousness to objectify even infinity Uh, because there is a phase where you're gonna be identified with infinity You're gonna be saying I am that I am this universe I am god But there's still a very subtle sense of identity there that hasn't been dissolved because once you dissolve even that They wouldn't occur to you whether this is a god or not whether this is pretty good. You wouldn't even think of those words, right? The funny thing is after I construct Chronicle god, that's why I say, uh Go from from non awakening to awakening you dissolve the ego but to go from awakening to say enlightenment you dissolve even uh awareness consciousness of god whatever is uh, Whatever dissolved the ego you dissolve even that you Decide then in front from him and that and after I did that I I sank deeper into The absolute after I deconstructed the absolute after I stopped caring about what is the ultimate? What is the absolute if I am this universal thing or not? I actually my day to day experience uh Became even more You know locked into that thing that I deconstructed That's the same thing as we talked about earlier of how to understand something you transcend it The only way to transcend to the next level whether it's spirituality or anything life is to abandon the The current one and by abandoning the current one first you have to understand it and if second you have to exhaust it You have to exhaust it and once you exhaust it it will eventually fall off But once they fall out of the paradox again is you can experience it now even more deeply Because now you truly understand when you truly understand it you absorb it. You don't see it anymore That's why in Zen even tell you to wash away the stink of your awakening Yeah Going back to that You know transcend your realization scope beyond even um wake up even out of awakening Yeah Just well just that that's um, that's I think that's one more step Let's uh, let's go let's go back a little bit and then we'll we'll also reach that So now when you're noticing the nature of mind if you can sort of begin noticing it as something like an empty cognizance so you may You may yeah, and we'll we'll Well, well because we're gonna I feel like we're gonna tie that into the universalization right now I'm glad you went back though So, okay, so now if you Well, this feels what's this feels like what's most relevant for many of our um fellow Family uh on on uh here here our family here life reality so When so when you when you're recognizing the nature of mind as potentially more and more of this empty cognizance one of the most important questions that I feel like you can ask is if if this If this nature of mind here is empty cognizance is is is your nature of mind empty cognizance And so now you begin wondering. Well is the nature of all of our minds empty cognizance Yeah, okay, so now you see so now I feel like this is an important thing to not necessarily um Jump past too quickly, which is that we've went from the individual seeing the object right to the individual seeing their thoughts And then we've gotten to the individual seeing their mind essence as an empty cognizance Okay, and then now the next question to potentially ask is is that well is everyone's mind essence empty cognizance Okay, good question. Okay. Okay. So now we take now we take this leap. We become transpersonal That's another really good word to yeah um, I would say yes, uh, just from my direct experience of talking to people reading accounts of people's awakenings Uh, and just the fact that uh, the experience of empty cognizance is there can't be any other way because it's empty has no form Um, because that there's no property to it If there's no property it's identical to everyone. Uh, it's homogenous So and then there's another question that's sort of related. Is that empty cognizance nature of the mind or of experience? Even though it's the same in every individual uh experience is that Is that is that still the nature of mind as the brain as if you try to is that still a product of the brain? Or is that something that's universal? You know what I'm saying? So there's actually like like two two ways to look at this Okay, if everyone on the planet gets enlightened and everyone has a body in that empty conness And everyone's sort of like at least in the background at least in the most primordial fundamental way Experiencing experience exactly the same way no matter where they are what they're looking at who they are What gender they are what sex they are they're experiencing reality through that same lens of Uh, nothing. This is a really relatable way for people to get it. Yeah, so That's just presupposed that that doesn't assume that happens in the next hundred years. Everybody's in that state but Of course on the road, that's the absolute level on the relative level I I'm still looking at the same different stuff than you are right But then I I know for the fundamental level that all the different forms that has been manifested Um Okay, because we'll pause pause for a moment because this is really rich Okay, so at the fundamental or the ground or the essence level we can say that the empty cognizance Here with atlas and with frank is the same Potentially this is what we're saying is potentially the same But then what's different is that frank is in taiwan and atlas is in los angeles And so we're getting different expressions Where expressions and so you can see the same thing with like an expression of a woman or an expression of a man An expression of somebody that lives in a certain place versus another place that has some career versus a different career No kids versus two kids or whatever and so these are um ways that you can potentially begin juxtaposing Well is the essence of mind the nature of mind empty cognizance the same but the expression Is unique and different. Yes. Yes. So it's like the screen versus the movie Yeah, everyone has the same screen because the screen doesn't have property and everyone's playing That's a good analogy, but then you can some but then with that's still uh That that still doesn't answer the question now of whether whether that is uh really the nature of reality Or not and I don't think anyone knows the answer to that some people think they do but You know what I'm saying So the essence is the same screen Yes Yeah, and then and then the different movies is the expression and so So now what we're doing is we're trying to trace back From these objects to the thoughts to the screen itself the empty cognizance screen itself And say well frank and atlas and all eight billion share the screen sentient life shares a screen You know even potentially a dog or even a fly has a very potentially small screen And they have potentially these small flickering Images that are nowhere near our 4k resolution images They have potentially these tiny little more black and white and gray style Flickering images that are in maybe 360p or even lower resolution I don't even know what's lower than that Um because we don't use that as as humans but much much lower than that Okay screen that's what I'm they they still have the same screen even like dogs and cats have the same screen There you go I'm probably saying but but but but is this screen is this same screen a different individual screen That's a different computer has the same screen or is this one giant computer? And with different like Is it one giant screen or a many different screen or both here I'm saying yeah Did you did you get a chance to see the This this jumbotron analogy That I that I made um Like this this is how I how I visualize that let's see if I can pull it up Right here Oh, yeah, it has to go to this side all right this Yeah, so that'll be each individual has their screen and then but if it's that one screen Also, just the one screen you know I'm saying yeah There's yeah infinite jumbotrons And then on the infinite jumbotrons which are infinite gods which are infinite universes. This is a potential um a potential way to describe the nature on each one of these god universe jumbotrons are quadrillions quintillions of faces Which are all of the sentience in that universe and what they're experiencing So you take the eight billion perspectives that are On planet earth and you put them on this jumbotron and then you take the trillions and quadrillions More perspectives from all the other planets in all the other galaxies For all the other sentience and you also put it on this jumbotron And then you have the universal jumbotron the god jumbotron. And so this is a very empty cognizant processing or comprehending And then that's what's undergoing the process of Comprehending infinite possibility is This this the nature of mind undergoing the process of comprehending infinite possibility And this is just one vehicle design that we use and universe is just one reality design that we use Out of infinite potential So that's okay. So so now we got we got to um the transpersonalization So you get to empty cognizance and you begin transpersonalizing yourself, right? So now most people feel this with Most people feel this with empathy is one of their like first gateways into this because they're like, oh You know when when frank suffers, you know compassion as you suffer along with someone, right? And so when frank suffers what I do is I genuinely lovingly caringly get behind his eyes and Lovingly care and suffer with him and we grow through that together and transcend that together And so most people get these trans first transpersonal tastes of experience when they begin merging themselves in a sense to perspectives or like a mother Typically has a transpersonal experience when she births a child and she begins she begins to be a lot more self less And nurturing the child and even the father as well And so so now you've sort of shifted yourself into a more transpersonal perspective That's a really good word to use and now when you now, I would say what frank has been talking about the last Especially a couple of months where he's talking about the process of Taking what you're turning into the ground. So in this case, you've turned the mind into the ground You've turned consciousness into the ground. You've turned awareness into the ground Empty cognizance has become your ground. And so now what you want to do is you want to objectify your very ground And so but when you do things like objectify your ground, you begin more and more Decentralizing and universalizing yourself even outside of this This kingdom of God being Consciousness itself And so now in a sense you become more and more of the universe itself You you take all these pieces that are that you thought were you and you then stored it into your empty cognizant consciousness And then now you decentralize and universalize even that. Is that approximately how you see it? Yeah, so I was just going to go back to the screen analogy of how yeah after you sort of Objectify the even the ground. There's no more screen. There's just manifestations. That's true Non-duality because if there's a screen and there's manifestation, they're different. There's still a very subtle duality So I guess you could say this is just this right? It's just this So another analogy that I need to use is smashing the ground of being or smashing god the god head Into a billion infinite pieces And I keep telling people you're not letting you're not excluding the chronicle god head Like you can experience the god even more all the previous ages can be not available Even more all the previous ages can be not be experienced even more deeply after you decentralize them You just simply take whatever you think is the ground off of the pedestal And you see how even the god head is dependent on rising Even consciousness or awareness is a process of dependent origination It's the process of causes and conditions. This arises that arises this ceases that ceases and that's a Your moment of moment experience after you penetrate it through dependent origination Is actually in a quite a different flavor than let's say the one mind the absolute god head perspective I would say it's a lot more dynamic and co-creative and bouncy and a lot more actual a lot more of this world um I think they're not there's another analogy. That's a really good one before awakening You're a person walking through the world. Let's say if you just like taking a walk through to the world You know, I think walks every day You're a separate being walking through the world. You're moving the world is not moving and Once you wake up to that, you know infinity that godhead That the world is like you are not this it's almost like you become static Now you're identified with this infinite godhead, right now when you walk and it feels like your body is If you're like cool the the new self The first stage you're the small self. You're moving through the second stage. You're the big self The big self never moves because it's eternal timeless, whatever, right? So when you walk in the world, it feels like you are walking in it But then there's still a subtle duality there between that which doesn't move and the character moving along with other people The third stage after you penetrate through dependent origination When you walk, it's just a world turning It's like it's neither in both The previous two stages When you walk it feels like the the whole universe is turning your legs. It's both and when you're Eating it feels like, you know, it just feels like they call it the diamond body Yeah They call it the diamond body and I wrote some of this down because I can read a little bit of this that the experience of it um So the the the violin plays itself without the player while writing this with the phone types itself while walking the whole world Turning your legs So while lifting the meek suit doesn't get tired because the whole world is the body and every rap feels like every part of the Cosmo Is working together doing their best flexing the self to move the weight um Some traditions call this the diamond body. I call it the cosmic octopus It's the magical tapestry of this realization is visceral actual purely sensual immediate rather than conceptual Or absolute uh when eating is the universe eating when shitting is the universe shitting So it feels like every note in this cosmic symphony from the big bang to the big crunch Is perfectly in tune to make every breath and every sensation precisely the way it is right now And all interpretation is in perfect harmony and turning your head and moving your arm One can perceive the intention and thoughts preceding the movements Arise and vanish all on their own volition indistinguishable from the form of the clouds and moving with other people Birds flying when blowing sounds of traffic and car striving Would have should have could have to be completely erased from your mental landscape because even the imperfections are perfect So that's a a little description of um It feels like every action that it feels like that it feels like every action you take every thoughts that you have Every decision you make is sort of a total exertion and the activity Uh the interdependency of the whole universe Yes, it feels like you're watching animal planet, you know when you watch animal planet You don't think of like uh, you don't really think of like like You just see how all animals are co-dependent rising and it's all interconnected and there's no central agency that's making this happen Frank Would you would you um, let's let's play Let's play like this for a moment um Okay, we'll go ahead and give you guys these these uh Visualizations, which should be So that's the the the the visualization we just brought up earlier. That could that could match what we're talking about. Yeah, so Okay, so yeah, so for just for just a moment. Um What it seems like is that when you undergo A i'll switch back um For just a moment. Um, it seems like what happens is that there's a transition from the object to What's more formless, which is watching a thought appear and disappear and then becoming this subject, which you could say Which you could say feels more and more like Empty cognizance or like this pure awareness what not right and and so then you question and say well Is this empty cognizance the nature of mind the same for frank and for all eight billion of us? Okay, so might this be god Okay, so now you're there and might god be infinity expressing itself and so now you begin sort of like Deconstructing and that sort of but that leads us to this type of stuff where you begin You kind of become each one of these Subatomic particles of the entire universe you become the universe itself You become the fabric or the substrate would you say those words? Would you say you become the fabric or the substrate? You become the quantum mechanical flux of the universe itself It's more like it's It's more like you become None of it because there's only the process. There's only the links There's only the links even the Ultimately even the links are empty But there there's no thing there is no solid thing There's only the process where all the parts are working together to create this thing called the car Right, so just like every word in the dictionary is dependent on every other word in the dictionary Okay, okay, if if I yes, if I may maybe this will help um, is there a Is there a in what We're exploring with physics. There's this zero point energy The absolute lowest energy that a quantum mechanical system can be at This is what you could say is the nothingness Okay And then you have all of these excited States you have all of this quantum mechanical flux and you have these quantum field theoretic Interactions that happen here that then enable the arising of what appears as matter or form or frank yang or atlas and stuff And so then you have these infinite fire working that's happening here. So you have this Absolute nothing absolute everything And you have this Empty cognizance as that which is comprehending it So that might be One way frank. How does that resonate? if at all um I would say the uh So going back to the stages you were talking about how before you're looking at a pan and then you become aware of the pan and then You expend even that awareness to the whole universe Yes, and then you start to break down that awareness and then you start to perceive the world as to this process of dependent arising Uh, that would go along with the stages of waking we talked about in the last episode first year identified with the ego That's the pen in the second stage. You're identified with the with with the consciousness. That's in the head and then the third Uh, the third level you identify with being god or infinity being Um, and the fourth stage you identify with being nothing Uh, you know being non-existence and that's when you start to break down even the ground of infinite being And then there's another stage after that where you sort of just it's sort of like the world as it is The actual world but then see the actual words it is you have to distinguish The actual world as it is uh, the natural state or the nature of mind, uh There is that there is the real clinical real world the world before awakening that you perceive through the limited perspective of the character Um, and then there is this as the spiritual world where it's kind of like the stage of the god a stage of the infinite consciousness That's the clinical spiritual world and after you deconstruct giving your spiritual identity and the ground of being Or even you know god consciousness you reach the actual world Okay, so so when we're shifting Let's let's pick this up at empty cognizance. So when you're shifting from empty cognizance You're shifting into what we had up as the decentralized or universalized. Let's say Could we say that that's fair that we make a shift from empty cognizance into transpersonal and into decentralized universalized Well empty cognizance is is is is not Is is it runs through all the stages? I would say, you know I would say so. I would say so as well. It's just that I would say so as well. There's just one distinction that seems to be important here, which is that you sometimes there's not necessarily a full bathing in what I would say is this um Bottom stage of nothingness down here. I don't I or emptiness It's it seems like there's maybe a little bit of a taste of the emptiness And then you just go right back to expressing yourself and you don't perpetually bathe in the emptiness Which would be bathing in rickpa over and over and over and over and over again to really purify your expression really well And then this is just one way of perceiving it where then you would have this suffusion with awareness as the I amness and then you would have the eternal infinite creation and so This is another image that I would just like to see how you feel about this Do you sometimes feel like it's rather than frank yang? That you feel like it's more like the universe itself Like your piece of life is more like so decentralized that it's the universe itself Yes, exactly. That's why um earlier when I was reading my post I said when you eat is just the university eating When you when you walk is the whole universe walking, but there is a difference between experience that dynamically Is actuality versus sort of just like this this uh immobilized witness um, so I guess the the difference is between Having the the universe just sitting there watching itself through you Versus expressing itself in an actual dynamic creative matter in everyday life and that is the difference in zhou qian between uh when When you realize rick pa a sort of the static thing versus taking that And then applying to every single moment of your life and rick pa Samadhi of illumination is the expression of the Of the samadhi of suchness, which is that that dharma kaya. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, we talked about the dharma body and again the reason why it's called a dharma body because it's because it's so Like this sort it's it's almost like, you know how the okay Let's just the frank bar the frank bar every single part in the frank body Is working together to make every single ashen and every single like, you know, uh function the way it is Right. It's like a like a like a cosmic symphony uh, and then like, you know, um You know the aesthetic of the bicep can only co-dependent rising with, you know, the rest of the muscles You know, you can't just only have big bicep Uh, there's the symmetry of it all it's the working together in this, you know Uh symphony that gives rise to every single little particle in the body the way exactly the way it is um So this interdependency this interconnectedness this interpenetration The expression of that after you penetrate through dependent origination Is a different flavor than say the one mind or the iamness or the perceive the world through brahman that there is Very subtle or maybe even a very big difference in how you say that say that one more time Say that sentence again. I feel like that's an important sentence say that again um Well your moment to moment experience Uh after having penetrated dependent origination and I must emphasize you you can you can't truly penetrate dependent origina and experience it Uh beyond just concept you can't You can't experience it directly unless you've penetrated through all the stages before unless you have realized no self Both the no self of the small s the ego and no self of the big s Because because if you still standing on the ground of the big self of the brahman, you can't really You can't really perceive the interdependency because they still Proceed the world through this, you know eternal thing And everything's happening in it right and are you are you trying to say that also the screen is also dependent on the movie that it's projecting Exactly what i'm saying the conscious center's awareness is is dependent on the objects Perception is dependent on objects without the object. They won't be perception without perception They won't be mind without mind. They won't be consciousness so on and on and on And yes, yes, so everything is called dependent arising Through causes and conditionings, right? So so so then so then um The screen That we Were talking about being potentially the same across all a billion humans the empty cognizant mind Is not a ground. It's not something quote final But rather when you decentralize or universalize even that there's the recognition that the that the Empty cognizance is dependent on the entire universe and every subatomic particle and the whole movie that's at play for you right now right, right, right, right exactly so um So you can say even there's no such thing as permanent consciousness. There's no such thing as the screen From that perspective. There's just a movie. There's only reflections right and um And reflections every I guess you could say there is only infinite potentiality There's only infinite potentiality, right? There's only manifestation. There's only the mirror. Sorry. No, there is no mirror There's only the reflections, right So, uh, yeah, so so so it's only infinite fireworks You could yeah, you could you could say that that there's no not even the sky there Not even yeah Yeah, there's no background to any no background. There's not a background infinite fireworks We're not with the seer watching them. You are the infinite fireworks. Yes. Yes. Yeah It's it's more like it's it's more like the infinite fireworks It's not yours or mine. It's the co-arising of all the different parts So that's where you get to infinity co arises as eternal fireworks Yes, uh, yes Yes, yeah, you can say the infinite potentiality. What is the infinite potential other than the manifestation of codependent arising? Right, so they won't be this thing called the infinite potentiality without the parts So the parts is the whole and vice versa the parts is always dependent on the whole and the whole is also dependent on the parts Right, so that also sort of explain and answer some of the question we had earlier Is this really the nature of reality or is this just the product of our individual minds? It's codependent. They're codependent arising. They're both rise through the causes and conditions of Um, all the different links and different notes of the universe So is it like this infinite potentiality manifests as codependent arising fireworks? Yeah, you could say that Yeah Wow You or you could just just say that reality I guess you could we could bring this to the the problem of free. Well, the universe is not predetermined. Neither is it totally random The universe is a process of co-creation That that's the simplest way to put it. It's neither a predetermined like God said in a particular thing Or it's neither just random. It's neither. Just all just, you know, I can do whatever I want. It's all random There's no meaning at all So you you sort of find the middle way between eternalism and the absolutism of like brahmin of the hinduism of like christianality And versus the nihilism or even the emptiness of buddhism or doll is just no self So you find the middle way And transcend both sides of those dualities um This might also be a good time to read your Your Free will post as well Oh, yeah, we can talk about free. Well, I think that's all related Yeah, maybe maybe actually give give it a moment. Just give it a quick moment Let's sink in this first a little bit deeper and then we'll and then we'll get there Yeah, because you just you just brought it up and it was really Salient, but I'd like to potentially stay with this just another moment. So Okay, so we have An ineffable which is pure potentiality infinite potentiality Something that's unbounded something that you'll never come to the end of exploring Right, right. So this is sort of like this. This is sort of the first principle. You could say the first principle Logically speaking if you were to create an axiomatic Mathematical proof style science breakdown You would say that you have to assume That there's pure potentiality infinite boundless potential and that's potentially what we are So then you have to start with that As an assumption Which is directly experienced by many mystics as the nature of reality, okay So including myself and frank and many people that awake and come to this realization, okay So then now now we're breaking this down axiomatically proof based science math for people So now you start with this pure potentiality is boundless infinite and then the the next sort of step is that There's a manifestation mechanism for that And the mechanism of manifestation In this case in our end of one our sample size is only one here is a universe With planets orbiting stars that have biology that secretes sentience And that then turns around and recognizes its its nature Now this is one mechanism of expression And so the universe codependently arises as the fireworks frank atlas All eight billion of us all the planets from uh From a level of Whatever is at the very nothingness of things just like this Zero point energy As well All the way up to the actual fireworking of this frank yang costume and a massive codependent substrate Doing said said process How does that resonate? Well, uh, um, it's difficult I'm trying to get that that is that that is one way to put it It's it's like it's it's like everything from the big man to the big crunch is is codependent rising to make every single um Thought you have the way it is um Yeah, so yeah, so that's that that I actually wrote that down as well. I was looking at my notes I actually use the word the big bang and the big crunch Because even just every single word that i'm out of it right now every single breath i'm taking right now Is depending on rising through this infinite webs Of causes and conditions and every single events and phenomena and sensation within this web is connected to infinite other webs and But what I want to say is that that's one way to look at it. That's one way to conceptualize it, but I'm I guess I was trying to get down to the the moment, uh, I was trying to get down to the uh To the embodied manifestation of the embody experience of that. So perfect, but let's do that net. Let's do that now Yeah, so that's the difference is that that that's exactly one one really good way to to visualize it But then there is also the direct experience of that Which you can't directly perceive the big bang or the big crunch. You can't so in the direct experience of it um Yeah, actually the direct experience of dependent origination Is well, I just I sort of I sort of read it. Uh, what what what I wrote earlier. It's it's it's it's it's like every it's it's There before it was more like the the big like one mind thing was just like You walking you walking in it right and then you're this headless like, you know Unbounded space and you're walking through the space and you become that space after you after you identify the ego And you started to identify with this infinite space and everything's moving through it You feel like you're eternal You feel like you're this ground of being and everything's manifesting out of it And then after you deconstruct them in that and start to experience the world through this interconnectivity um Yeah, then you start to experience the world sort of like um Uh very close to the way that those pictures depict And then now now from that place How does one Undergo this process of a spontaneous pure expression. Is it just natural every time that you sort of unite more? This is how it feels like right now For for me where I'm at is that every time I recognize mind essence and empty cognizance every time I recognize that every time I Feel like the universe and it all feels like the universe every time that happens. It feels like the expression is pure And That's a good good. Yeah, it feels like Okay, it's Rather than just everything is it's kind of like a rising pass in a way through this infinite field Of eternalism. It's more like every everything is spontaneous and everything is being created right now It's not it's not a rising and passing through a background or source Is that everything is this everything is already the source itself. There's no more distinction between the source manifestation of Source dancing, but but first you undergo a process of negating your way to unite with said Essence and then you see then you include and see it all as source dancing Yeah, and then the source dancing the the the the rhythm of the source dancing everything is the Dependent arising through with and as each other. So it's it's like it's like moving from like big cosmology to like quantum entanglement You know how like, you know physics, right? There's there's Newton Newton is more like this absolutism like brahman kind of god, right? And then after Newton you have like the Einstein's and the quantum mechanics The Einstein was taking everything to be more relative, right? It's like oh nothing is dependent on this absolute Timeless like gigantic cosmic clock like Newton said everything is sort of relative, right? You change one thing you change the other everything is dependent arising through each other, right? The time and space is not really like this this thing We we assume to be the background of experience time and space itself is also the same process of codependent rising just like consciousness awareness you take the background out and then You go even beyond that and say how there's this quantum entanglement and quantum mechanic kind of thing Where it goes the breaks down even deeper and like it's a little even even more Sort of spontaneous than what I assume. So I guess that that could be a good analogy Okay, so so so the simultaneity of being both the The the universe and also potentially the metaverse when we play with that pure potentiality And also being the most zero-point energy this very quantum mechanical fields Being that as well the quantum entangled everything this at the same time And so that that's really interesting to see it at the most Plunk level and the cosmic level and merging those that's the you know This whole process of it closing on itself Seeing it at the most macro the most micro and this you know, you know There's a meso level people forget about the meso because they only go to macro and micro Meso is like human level. And so that's unit locality where you Exactly what you're talking about. I think I think I think that the nothingness the singularity and the big crunch And the big bang is the same, you know the the singularity is infinity So the everythingness and the nothingness is the same but then in the middle there's the manifestation of the sort of the more actual level and That's what I mean when I say this the experience of dependent region feels actual it feels a visceral It's not it doesn't feel spiritual Like I feel visceral. Yeah, not spiritual feels visceral. Yeah That's why you refer him back to the the analogy. So I have a question. I have a question Yeah, and I know you've been I know you've been talking about it from the perspective of the the animal as well Which I think is really interesting. My question would be this it's been written about as like a Like a it's like a not so merry-go-round. It's sort of what it's called Where you're basically like the samadhi bell Gets hit and all of a sudden you recognize empty cognizance or you recognize yourself as the universe and not your contracted character in it And so what is it like because you just described it as this visceral experience is So what what is that like when it's For you right now when it's not something that you revisit something. That's not like a samadhi bell that rings a couple times an hour Yes, that that that would lead me to the the the post about um for you on determinism. Um, okay, great. Yeah, it is sort of like In here there is no observing anymore because you come if they constructed observer and you have to construct and dissolve the thinker So it's not a state you go back and forth to it's just the way it is happening right now Like it it doesn't feel like you're you're doing it. That's why I said every action Yes, like the total exertion and the activity and the tapestry of the whole universe through those different links of Dependent arising and causes and conditionings So in in more like the way you can visualize it I guess is it could be could be could be put it this way Let's say we eat a grain of just eat a bowl of rice You're not just eating the rice It feels like Let's see if i'm eating a bowl of rice and there's like people sitting next to me and there's birds flying around me and there's like Wind blowing and then it's like all the different parts are working together in like a symphony to make every single bite of the the the rice Perfect the way it is it's like this cosmic symphony and everything's playing in tune And it's like it's not just like you as an observer was the god my in this very static kind of eternalism way sitting in the absolute Cloud of eternal ground of being eating the clouds neither is it just the individual self in the clouds So eating the rice it's like it's the different parts and the different relations into penetrations That's making this particular action possible So it's both the individual and the universal right and you can also like contemplate how like that the Rice is only dependent rising through like the farmer Or the we the weed feel you know and the weed feel it's only can only be possible And is rising through the sky the rain the weather and this web of connection goes You know to infinity to infinite potentiality So in a sense it's it's it really takes Uh, not just the center point of the you know of the mitzvah out of the equation But the center point of the universe out of the equation Um, and it's it's a really effort I think the one word that I could use to describe it is effortlessness Effortlessness and freedom and spontaneity. Yeah. Yeah. It's not something you have to observe Abiding going back and forth to it's not like a state where there's higher lower It's just whatever is manifesting right now And whatever is manifest right now is always without exception Uh, the process of co-rising co-creation into penetration into dependency into play um So so over time there's a shift even more from this What appears to be a what appears to be like a samadhi bell that is like gung And you're like in this empty cognizance you recognize it or you Recognize yourself as the universe. So there's a shift from this like dung that like happens and then you're you're you're there and then that sort of becomes more and more of It's like when you're doing the three pointers It becomes more and more effortless that that becomes the natural rhythm the natural So you shift less and less away from necessarily being the contracted identity and you shift more and more and then And then that process even Sort of closes the loop on itself where it's just effortlessness freedom spontaneity of expression But purely I think the most important word that I've realized is purity like pure Like Yes yet, um You can you can spontaneously express yourself from a place of still separation or ego or identity or lack or Needing validation from people which is all a fair expression of infinity But the point is is that if you really want to purify yourself all the way Into this abiding essence Repeatedly it it it almost enables the expression to be more pure It enables the expression to be more spontaneously in service um It enables it to have more honor like I don't feel like people come off Compassionately after not abiding in the essence of the nature That's what i'm trying to get at. Um Anyway, cool. So one of the yeah, um, I want to talk about the bell really is this just popped in my head I think the belting is a really uh analogy It's not just like all the bell rings and then you try to abide in the space with a bell It's a rising advantage into each other be mindful of the bell. It's not even just that It's like the bell is there's no more like bell It's just like what is the bell? What is the sound of the bell? But they're called a rising off the person hitting the bell and what is the person the person made up of like infinite number of Parts right and then the bell that the sound of the bell is dependent on all the super factor that everybody Sitting in the meditation hall. It depends on all of them To manifest the bell and then the bell manifests through them So it's like you and everybody everybody's inside you kind of thing, right? The bell is inside everybody everybody is inside the bell everything everybody is inside everything And everything is inside everything everybody So it's not just that bell. It's not just you being mindful of the bell It's like the bell is the manifestation of all these different parts, you know You know, what is that the instrument that's hitting the bell the sound the vibrations the air You know the sound can't exist without the air. It's that Yeah, it's all those different parts coming together in a perfect moment That's why that's why after you kind of see two different origination you sort of lose a sense of control You start to lose a sense of agency But paradoxically there's a lot of freedom in losing a sense of agency and I guess we can Shift into the the talk about free will versus determinism Um, because I think it's related, you know, so would would you say that there's a place of very little will at first And then you regain more and more sovereignty and will And then once you sort of meet once you sort of meet this Awakening endpoint you can say there's no more will or choice. So it's go it's going from Uh, no will To unfreezing your will Gaining lots of sovereignty lots of spiritual mass and then Going back to a place of merging with just Infinity where there's Uh, no choice again because you're only Spontaneously expressing yourself from a compassionate place That's that's a good but I'll say the first is the personal will and then there's a universal well And after that the universal and personal merging to one and you don't even think about will or not well anymore Yeah, that's how I would put it. Yeah Yeah, okay, and then what now this is this is another interesting Way to To ask you about this But what like what is the difference when you're going to this place of Essence again, it's a separate place right for a for a period of time is you're you're You're hitting this bell and going to this place of essence And then expressing from there and then those over time collapse into the same thing Okay, but You're becoming more and more thought-free wakeful, you know, it's written here right now and I just want to leverage this It's just that's what it feels like. It feels more and more thought-free Wakeful, but then when something arises it's arising as what's called like a white thought instead of a black thought where the white thought is Yeah, where the white thought is like it's It's a it's it's pure in the sense that it's coming from a place of wanting to serve life or to serve awakening To be compassionate. Okay. Okay. So you're talking about okay I think I heard some like a talk or something that distinguishing between like a good and bad desire versus craving Like you can have good desire and bad desire like a positive desire and a negative desire and how desire is different craving I don't know that that that's what you're talking about well in this in I guess if you want to bring compassion and service to others to the to the picture I guess you could say that actually you you penetrate through the interdependency and interconnectedness of all beings and all objects It's impossible not to Uh, it's it's impossible not to manifest compassion Perfect because even even the things you do for yourself is dependent on like all those different lengths of of other people in objects You know i'm saying so So every single action you do and take is the manifestation of compassion in that sense Once you see through how there is there is only the activity of those the process of you know Connectivities into penetration Another way to put it is like First you're the ego and then you're the godhead Even the godhead you could be sitting in the absolute transcendence to not give a shit about the world Uh, that's why a lot of people they just say that lots of in the same picture that the last one you go back to the marketplace Right, I guess that's kind of like how it is, you know, if you just sitting here in your in your crown of nirvana Uh, some people uh find that to be kind of quite imbalanced Sort of they just stop even talking about the world versus where you sort of deconstruct even from nirvana You deconstruct even the godhead and then you come back down to the world and express this purity of pristine awareness Where it's not centralized anywhere. There's no observer. There's no thinker. It's just manifestations Yeah You know like we talked about the zen 10 octane picture before but I went back and looked at again yesterday It's funny because there there is a stage where after emptiness after the circle The next picture is there's just a picture of the world and then in the description It did talk about like the process of colorizing independent origination And then after that you you you you sort of let go of that You let go of even that idea and you just embody So in in essence you get to the recognition that I am brahman or I am dao or I am god I am infinity. I am nothingness you get to this recognition and then you say that that ultimate is the world And those two are one and it's done Is that in essence You you could put it like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but then the thing is so like when when After a while you just sort of stop Thinking about you just kind of stop lacing those terms um on top of reality like Yeah, you you just don't well like brahman's anymore You just don't proceed the world through like the the lens of any spiritual teachings anymore Um, but but but you still you still get to keep like the experience of it You still you still get to embody the the benefit of it But that's not insane. It's like after a while you let go of even what I talked about earlier You even let go of dependent origination and you let me let go of the notes and the links and all that different stuff And it's just this right here um Even the whole notion of like no doership or like, you know, um, you know awareness of awareness That that that eventually that August is off from your mental landscape um Yeah So just manifestation simply this Yeah, the thing is about the thing the thing about this is like this is really really hard to express because When you just tell people it's just the way it is most of it we can confuse and like, okay, there's nothing to do There's no no no There's no uh, realizations to be had there's no inside to be gained. It's just the way it is right now, right? Well, I'm happy right now, but it's not really like that either So that's why I distinguish between the the real world of the ego world Like what most of experience or before awakening you face the clinical real world Through the separate stuff and then there's a spiritual world We experience the world through this like absolute transcendence navana godhead and then there is the actual world And the actual war is what we talked about earlier how like, you know, everything is dynamic bouncy and spontaneous And the labels that you try to slap on it is just not it Yeah dynamic bouncy spontaneous no labels Is that and then there's a and then up to the point it's like What is what is the nature of mind? What is the nature of reality? What is the ultimate that also you let go You just stop questioning it. You just you just you just live life. Yeah You just live life. You know what adiashante said he said something that's really fascinating He said uh, he tells people not to get stuck in enlightenment Just get get walking move on with your life, but he still talks about enlightenment You can still teach you can still talk about it But but but there there really is a difference between like hijacking realizations and hijacking spirituality and then seeing the world through that lens Versus Talking about it purely from the perspective of how you see through it as just more fabrications How there's just more stuff of the mind at the end Uh, so you ask the question who am I what is reality? You get to the answer and then you help other life get to the answer in their own unique way Like you literally serve life But you don't hijack it with a halo, but instead you do it like when When we just had You know, daniel ingram on the show Which we talked about as well where you basically you're weaving spirituality into the scientific paradigms clinical trials biometric correlates of awakening with eegs and fmri's and ekg's and all these different ways to put awakening into the mainstream in a sense so people can Um become more coherent with life itself and less a separate contracted energy Yeah, that depends on what you want to do afterwards, you know, you can do whatever you want, but it's a really good way to express Compassion around Yeah, for daniel ingram, that's this thing and then for other people. That's their thing Yeah, if they want to play basketball afterward play basketball do whatever the fuck you want to do um Do whatever the fuck you want, but just know that if you if you truly know If you truly know there was going to be an inclination for you to find a way to serve Of course find a way to serve Yeah, yeah, if you for me it's doing this it's doing this right now in your tube Yeah And but but we do it through a different sort of uh, we we take other things and we try to We try to inject it with different things. So that's cool. Yeah Yeah, so that's that's awesome. I think I feel like that's That's pretty much most of what we want to talk about. I've been talking to zack by the way He's running a little bit late for our second For our second show that we're going to do Let's talk about the free will thing Okay. Yeah, go ahead and um, pull that up. Yeah, he's uh I'm just going to read this poll this post act. So after I have things I just forget it. All right So I wrote uh Wait, wait, wait. Can you can you send it to me so I can pull it up on the screen? As well. Oh Should I should I um So I give you some techniques here also on how to access this. Um, so, um I mean Yeah, so there's some exercises in there. I mean it's pretty simple, but um I Are you gonna send it via email? So I think we did get to the bottom of the question though in the beginning What is the nature of mine? Yeah Jim Newman kind of kind of guy, I like him I like him, but I'm just say, uh, um There really is nothing more to say about the nature of mine than to say this is this is it right here right now It's just that simply this It's just that But it's just that simply this you have to simultaneously have that while you also have the recognition that like, oh, I'm gonna go from objects to becoming more subtle meta Cognizing my thoughts. Yeah, you have to go through the the process to to really say this is it and really like fully like complete quote-unquote going back to the word comprehend itself Grock it itself. Yeah, right, right, right Reality grocks itself or comprehends itself. Yeah, they're the universe Uh fab into itself Yes All right, let me see if I can pull it up Do you send it? Yep So I guess this could sum up a lot of stuff that we talked about earlier. Um I'm gonna read it ready. So I Wait, wait, wait, wait. You said do you send it the email? I want I wanted to pull it up on the screen for people That's what I mean. So we could read along with it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, did you you did send it? Uh-huh Just haven't gotten here well So I guess I guess you can say that the nature of reality or the nature of mind Can only be accessed fully when the character Drops his desire or inclination to understand the nature of reality in the nature of mind That's another that's another paradise I love that one. I love that one. That's a good one. It's not like I'm discounting all the talks about the nature of mind It's that you have to like climb the mountain and then throw you have to climb the ladder and throw it away To climb the ladder and throw it away. Yeah The ladder is so important and if you want to help other people recognize you you have to throw in the ladder It can't just be like Uh, there's no ladder. That's why that's why even though I love Jim Newman I think his method is too extreme for most people like Unless you're there already it's hard to understand what he's talking about You know Then Then realize there was no climbing anywhere. There's no climbing. There's no climber. There's no ladder But yeah, remember what we talked about at the same time there is Hey, yeah at the same time there is. Yeah, that's so great Okay, let me see if it came through it still hasn't come through bro. That's weird bro Are you sending it from your iCloud email because I feel like that has issues sometimes Okay, I'm sending it. I'm sending it again. There. Okay, I sent it Oh, dude, I can't have I can't wait to have that comment. It's gonna be Oh, I just got it. Perfect. Okay, cool Wait, wait, wait, wait, let me pull it up. Let me pull it up. Hold on. Hold on Almost there So, yeah, we could just All right Okay, I got it. I got it. Hold on and one sec one sec And one sec one sec one sec. Let me switch this to To this and then oh, that's the wrong one. Oh, that's so fun. It's hella trippy We got to do this actually instead. It's this one Over here. There we go. Okay. All right, and All right, there it is and now Let me zoom in a little And scroll over to the side. Okay now Yeah, now people can read along. Yeah. Okay. So we're we're here. Yeah So at some point in your journey, you're going to lose all sense of agency The personal well will be replaced by the universal well But they're ultimately the same because park has a whole advice versa So when you untie the knot of perception and lose the vintage point in the center The doer controller along with the seer here thinker perceiving nor will also vanish So it feels a bit like going to go you as a separate self cannot make a decision But every thought and movement is the total exertion and the activities of the entire universe How can the self uh does or think anything at all if you cannot even locate it? Ha ha ha Your moment and moment experience becomes extremely empowering and liberating liberating Permanent flow that transcends the temporary experience of being the zone because it's not a big experience All right, so life goes on simply unfolding as it is You'll probably do the same thing you've always done but not always But without the quote-to-quote doers slowing everything down things become much more efficient and effortless It's kind of like when you uh deconstruct the seer and the and the and the hearer the sounds to hear themselves Right the the perception just appears And there's no filter between the seer and the scene the seer the here in the heart So yeah things are just quicker. I don't know when you work out a guitar That's why I go into the body So as your body might becomes air the violin plays itself without the player while writing this the phone types itself While walking the whole world is turning your legs and vice versa So while lifting the misu does it get tired because the entire world is your body and every rat feels like every part of the Cosmo is working together flexing itself to move the weight Yeah, some tradition called this the dama body or the dama kaya. So I call it the cosmic octopus Because like the uh, the the manifestation of the realization is visceral actual And sensual and immediate rather than conceptual imaginary So when eating is the entire universe eating when shooting is the universe shooting and every no from the cosmic symphony From the big bang to the big crunch is perfectly in tune to make every breath and every sensation precise the way it is All into penetration in perfect harmony Turning the head or lifting the arm one can perceive the intention in the thoughts preceding the movement to rising and vanishing on their own volition Indistinguishable from the forming of the clouds and movement of other people birds flying wind blowing sounds of the traffic car Striving the kudas should have would have to be completely raised from your mental landscape Even imperfections are perfect But there was a study where neuroscientists asked participants to push a button whenever they feel like it Or they're inclined to do so the signals are pushing a button already started at the clinical subconscious level before they consciously decided to do it You can actually perceive and experience this in real time when you're buying in a still point of true nature That fill the blank that manifests all of existence And since there's nothing but manifestation and no distinction between background foreground everything is Fill the blank and there's nothing to biding As an exercise try to do anything intentionally You'll see that you can't make anything happen That isn't already happening by itself any sense of the chronicle you controlling natures intelligent intelligence is like It's absurd just like believing in center class Even the thought or the feeling of chronicle i am in control is an afterthought A conceptual layover that is also happening by itself through the force of nature As an exercise sit down and watch your breath thoughts or even scan the body And you'll see that how all these sensations are not just aware of themselves and happening on their own And it's the doing of the universe But see even the intention of paying attention to that Or direct attention to anything at all is happening on its own is the doing of the universe Even the awareness of that is happening on its own is the doing of the universe So you're basically vipationalizing not just the vipationalizer, but the vipationalizing itself So you vipationalize the vipationalizer and the vipationalizing So you sneak up on any cluster of sensation that feels like it's chronicle in control of another cluster of sensation Then you sneak up on that which is doing the sneaking in and on and on and on So you keep going meta just like do a self inquiry Until the circuit closes on itself and there's no more duality between the subject and object and there's no more going meta So there's no more like mirror. There's no more screen. No more name and a cognition at this point So as another exercise stop before you perform a task very mundane tasks like turn the door Not see if you can cash the intention and the thoughts that signal in this action Way before that not way before but like before you start to turn the door Not you can actually proceed that it's really crazy with this realization It wouldn't occur to you whether there's free will or not free will because uh That only belongs to a dualistic mind Right, it would never occur to you to nature or the universe whether it's free or not Reality is neither predetermined nor random but caused the conditions of the cosmos since nothing is solid There are no nodes only links of interdependency and connectivity And on the ultimate level even the links are empty. So there are no cause and effects only spontaneity and spontaneity Because time and space Also don't exist apart from the process of cause and condition on the relative level You can truly glimpse you can only truly glimpse the above after you reach the stage five of my map of awakening After realizing true self of no self by constructing both the ego and awareness And then penetrate further into dependent origination by smashing the godhead into a billion pieces And then you let that go even so everything everyone is inside you What you said you're inside everything everyone that's unique locality So experience in this quantum entanglement real time the operating system is upgraded from the universal consciousness phase Which paradoxically cannot be experienced even more deeply your moment to moment experience become a pristine bouncy luminous fairytale If everything is happening by itself then nothing is happening by itself Ultimately any spiritual notions like awareness of awareness no duality of what even consciousness will completely Be erased and disappear from your mental landscape. So the summing up the harsh to try again There's no body no mind no consciousness no world no self no free will yet the same time There is a body of my pure consciousness There's a self a world and free will so in totally unity one can experience one or the other both and or neither that is all Okay That is my little powerpoint presentation Oh Basketball is the NBA finals, bro Mm-hmm So So would you say that that post? Zach's calling Should we take a break and bring him on? We can continue to talk My Okay, great frank and I are We'll be ready in a little bit as well on our end. So i'll send you a link Oh, bro. We should talk about basketball when he's on because then we can turn to the real world Perfect. I'm gonna send you a Message in a moment with the link All right, I'll send you a message with the link in a moment. All right. Okay. Okay. I think we can end it here I mean that I think our session could end here because I think the post that I just read pretty much summarized everything we talked about in a more like Organized matter. I agree and would you say that the essence of it is dependent origination? I would say so. Yeah. Yeah, I would say the essence of it. I mean dependent origin is Buddha's last insight That was the insight he had before his his final enlightenment His final awakening And you know what's fascinating about You know, what's fascinating about dependent origination is the first link Of dependent origination, which is do you know mind essence? I love If you don't know mind essence Then that creates all of the dependent origination around ignorance being expression But that's also basically that the mind essence is also part of this loop It's not like the mind essence gives rise to this All those webs is that it's part of the web. That's that's the Buddha's insight But where but where is your expression for where is the first link of your expression? Is do you know the nature of mind or not? You have to know that first Yes, yes, if you because the first link is if you know the nature of mind It's a pure Expression if you don't know the nature of mind, it's going to be contracted the go Yes, so exactly. So you have to that's why the steps you have to abide in the one mind first the aim Is before you can penetrate it dependent origination and the funny thing is though the uh that you said that because um So basically what is suffering is also dependent rising right suffering is only dependent on the object of suffering And the object of suffering is only dependent on the perception a perception is dependent on Intention intention is dependent on consciousness and the consciousness is also dependent on the the the the the suffering object in all the other links, right? so yeah Frank I adore you brother wait a second. I got one more thing to say I'll say last thing last thing Well, some people are going to be like wait, but what's perceiving all this dependent origination? Right. Yes, and then but then people like Dana Ingram or a certain Practitioners of certain traditions that come out and say what about a succession when consciousness disappears you go into unconsciousness Isn't unconsciousness and consciousness Existence and none existence also called dependent arising through each other That's why I say enlightenment or the absolute is the merging and the transcendence of both being and non-being Absolutely infinity and absolute nothingness going back to your little illustration perfect Beautiful, right Next time with your sweet shirts, bro. You should wear. I love you so much frank yang everyone the fucking og straight up the fucking The fucking polymath fucking synthesizing across all these different traditions going through all these different janas and understanding The nature and also being an absolute normie dissolving his halo Fucking dope, bro. I love you so much. You're lit. I'm so pumped to create with you more G bro Love you brother. Love you. Love you. We have another we have a next episode. We have a next episode Three some three some with zack marlo, baby We are we're gonna take a break. I love you everyone. Thank you so much for Thank you I think next time you should bring like like basketball players of bodybuilders Yeah, actually that's something we're going to talk about with zack on the show is How how to trojan horse spirituality into the mainstream? Yeah, I love I love I love you all. Thank you for all your wonderful comments and um and kindness and thank you for watching And um check out the links in the bio below to frank's instagram Also frank's youtube channel. He's got so much great content on there go and subscribe check it out Give him a follow on ig as well. He posts so many good captions down there under his posts And also um subscribe to simulation if you haven't yet Also, leave us a comment below with your thoughts on the episode We'd love to hear from you like the video as well and share it with other people that you feel like It would positively influence go through this practice of understanding my nature more and more And share that with your friends get pumped about understanding my nature and also simply this simultaneously And that is all um That's all we'll probably come back with an episode five in a couple of months maybe in the in the fall you'll see us come back together again and um, we'll be potentially even making more content together In the winter that's maybe even around master classes around this so we're really excited for that And uh infinite love for you guys and we will talk to you soon We okay