 Burlington is not heading in the right direction, from failed development projects to a failing police department and policies that put the needs of big developers and corporations over working people. The policies of the last decade are not working and our neighbors, our community, our city is struggling. Now it's time for a new direction that will bring our city together by refocusing our local government on policies that address the needs of all our community members and the planet. We're done demanding civil rights. We will not just take people being civil to us, we want the same treatment and we demand equality. On March 2nd, we will have an opportunity to elect new city leadership and we need you to be a big part of that process. Find out more and register for the caucus at ProgressiveParty.org slash new direction. Pay for by the Vermont Progressive Party. I'm the co-chair of the of the Burlington City Committee of the Vermont Progressive Party. Thanks so much for joining us today. Welcome to the mayoral candidate forum on social and racial justice. Thanks so much to our audience, our potential candidates and our facilitators. Special thanks to organizers, Nate Lanterri and Sarah Sirtino. Thank you to our facilitators, Mohamed Abdi and Mohamed Jafar and to our potential mayoral candidates, Councillor Pine and Councillor Tracy. Our goal is to provide the opportunity for left of center for Burlington voters to get to know potential candidates for mayor before we get to the caucus and the actual voting. This is a forum, not a debate. The moderators will pose questions that have been given both by submitted by people who have registered for the caucus and questions that they think that they've come up with. And there's also an opportunity, if you would like to pose questions on the Facebook live stream, there may be time at the end for us to take some of those. The caucus or sorry, not the caucus, the forum format is 60 minutes with a little bit of time at the end for possibly additional questions and closing statements. So, tomorrow night is our next and last forum, it will be about economic justice, it's also at 6pm, and it will be hosted at the same place. And this is all leading up to our grand caucus on December 1st where we will decide who is our candidate for the next progressive mayor of Burlington. To register to participate in that caucus, you need to go to www.progressiveparty.org slash new direction BTV. You can also find the recording for this forum and for last week's forum at that link. So without, I also wanted to thank Vermont Racial Justice Alliance and the black perspective for co-sponsoring this event with us. And on behalf of the Burlington Vermont progressive party things are joining us. And now I'll send it over to the facilitators. Hello. Thank you very much, Annie. First and foremost, thank you all for being here today. Thank you to the candidates. I will introduce myself my name is Mohammed Jafar. I am a community member and like to consider myself a community activist as well. And I'm just glad to be here and to be a part of a part of this process and, and I'll let Mohammed talk as well before we jump in. Hello everyone thanks for joining us today. My name is Mohammed Abdi. I am one of the two co-founders of the black perspective. We've been doing some social justice work around the Burlington area and I'm happy to be facilitating this meeting. Again, thank you candidates and viewers for coming out tonight. Without further ado for to get us started. We will do a coin flip, which today Brian, Brian Pine, you will be, you will get to decide the flip. And I have the coin in my hand if you will call it. And that'll start our questions off. Thanks, Mojo. I'll take heads. Tails it is. All right, so Max you get the first question and our first question will be a general question about mayorship. Let me just pull up my questions here. What does the mayor so for this first question you have three minutes the second question and I will specify each quite I will clearly state how many minutes you have for each question for this first question. What does the mayor do in Burlington, and what will your term as mayor look like you have three minutes for your response. Thanks, Mohammed. And I also want to thank Mohammed Abdi for joining us as well and for doing the forum and for moderating this forum. It's just wonderful to be with both of you this evening and to have a chance to lay out my vision for how I'll run the city of Burlington if elected as your next mayor. I think that what we've seen over the last several months has been an awakening within our city of Burlington because for far too long we've been asleep, we've been asleep in terms of how we deal with issues of racial and social justice in Burlington. And we have not done enough to be to build the inclusive and equitable city that we all know that we can be think we've dealt with these issues in the frame of policing in the city of Burlington. However, I think that there is a much broader conversation that needs to take place as well I think it's necessary and essential that we deal with the issues around public safety because we have a public safety system right now that is not providing safety for all members of our community and specifically is doing is is being for being completely honest violent towards black people in our community and so we need to be very clear about that. However, we also need to broaden our vision and to understand that it's not just about, you know, preventing violence that's a baseline condition we need to make sure that we're doing everything we can to create the opportunities, and the ability for people to thrive in this involves, you know, making sure that we're doing that we're creating opportunities for cultural and economic empowerment, making sure that we're using city government as an activist force to make sure to make sure that we're centering those voices bring people into the conversation and having you know the most diverse administration that we can have that we that we've had in Burlington history as opposed to, you know, an administration that keeps people out that limits the administration that is exclusive and that tries to push policies that people don't like by selling it to us through through campaigns we need to have a can we need to have a mayor that is collaborative that works with people that centers BIPOC voices that that brings in, you know poor people that brings in disabled people that that brings people to the table and bring city government to the people that opens the doors of city hall to the public and so I want to have the most open transparent and diverse city government city government that Burlington has ever seen. Thank you max and Brian same question to you. What does the mayor do in Burlington and what will your term as mayor look you have three minutes. Thanks very much I really appreciate the chance to engage on these topics. The, the answer to the question very directly, the mayor of Burlington's job in addition to managing the city which is a entity with about 680 employees and a $62 million budget is really to provide that vision and that leadership, and to serve as the community brings diverse interests together develops common vision and moves us forward as a community in the most inclusive respectful way that brings new voices and all voices to the table and values and respects opinions, whether their opinions you agree with or disagree with I feel that that's critical to explain in my vision of what the mayor of Burlington should be. I just want to make sure that my personal journey in this regard I think it's good for people understand a little bit about us and I just want to share that. I grew up in a very small rural area in the Catskill region of New York that was predominantly a white community, and in about fifth grade I had a friend whose family was from the island of Puerto Rico, and it was the first time that I was born in Puerto Rico. And so, you are a person from incredible privilege and could basically told me in fifth grade, her on did what I was what I had essentially not earned but was given by birth as a white person in this society, well at age, I guess what are you 12 or 10 at that I was not sure that I could digest that I wasn't sure exactly what it meant but fast forward, many years later to my time, arriving at UVM and learning about basically the notions of using the powers of of systemic racism to keep people oppressed and the black and brown folks have been living under that type of oppressive system for 400 years. And my personal involvement was really inspired by a local activist out I considered to be one of our grandfathers of the racial justice movement, Richard camp, who sort of recruited me among many of my friends to be involved in the efforts to eliminate apartheid in South Africa. So as part of that group, we were, you know, we pushed for divestment from South Africa UVM, and we certainly accomplished great things and eventually apartheid in South Africa fell, but only to only to realize that you know we have serious systemic barriers and right here in our own society and we face forms of economic oppression, we fought we essentially have our own form of apartheid where black families have a wealth gap that is significant and where educational opportunities and wealth building opportunities, public health outcomes, among black and brown residents of this society of our society, our country and our community lag far behind their white counterparts. I would also add that I have come to appreciate as a community what we can do when we when we raise these issues around people of color by black community members, LGBTQ plus community members, and really elevate those needs, those voices, and make them central to developing our plans or policies and everything about city government so that would be a complete. I believe shift of focus in a in a pine administration. If I'm fortunate enough to be able to serve in that role in the future. Thank you Brian and thank you Max as well for laying out the basics here first and answering the quest the other part of the question as well of course I will swing the bat over to my, my partner Mohammed over here, who also has a great name I see to ask the second question. Thank you very much. So, the next question is, how will you promote transparency accountability progressed as it relates to racial equity, social justice diversity and cultural responsiveness in your administration, and you will have four minutes, we're going to start off with Max. It would be Brian this time. Oh, we're going to rotate. All right, Brian. Mohammed we're all figuring this out as we go so I appreciate that. Yeah, let me just say that the notion of transparency and accountability is is essential I believe to a truly functioning democracy. And it is one of the fundamental principles that I would be advancing and I believe our community risks expects and deserves a fully transparent and accountable city administration. And I would add that for many, many years. BIPOC voices have been essentially telling us messages repeatedly about discrimination about forms of oppression that have been keeping them from reaching their full potential from experiencing the benefits of living in this community. And from being able to be sure of the security and safety of themselves and their families and we have honestly not done a great job listening. So I just want to acknowledge that and say that we have, I believe a needed a requirement as elected officials to both listen to those voices and let those voices drive us to a place where we are focused on gathering the information needed the data needed have data driven processes, never forgetting this data for an critical purpose of breaking down the barriers to full participation in their society and we have an obligation as elected officials to hold ourselves accountable by gathering data by monitoring data and by making changes based on what we see in that data. And we want to make sure that the way we define what data should be gathered is inclusive so that we don't rely on the same old experts and the same room of Ivy League trained experts who come in and tell us what data we should gather. We need to actually go to the community and say, what are the indicators you feel we need to be gathering here and keeping track of so that we can show folks that yes, in fact, the stop rate, the traffic stop rates for black residents of Burlington continually outstrips the traffic stop rate of all other groups of all the racial groups. We need to say, as a community that we are going to measure these data, we're going to evaluate them but we're also going to hold ourselves accountable through department heads are going to be expected under under our administration to show actual tangible progress and the way we evaluate our budget decisions and our staffing and how we actually promote people are not promote people ought to be measured against how are we doing among those in our community who are most marginalized. And that's that's the focus I would bring to transparency and accountability. As for max. How will you promote transparency accountability and progress as it relates to racial equity social justice diversity and cultural responsiveness in your administration, and you have four minutes. For me, transparency and accountability really start with the recognition that we need to ground those pursuits in in in truth and reconciliation. You can't have reconciliation without truth. And so we have to be honest about what's happened in our community and where we've where we've fallen short. And I think we've seen, you know, continually, an administration that, you know, has fallen short on transparency and accountability specifically with regards to racial justice. You know, when we look at a variety of, you know, the police incidents that have happened over the last year, we've seen concealment be the number one move when it comes to these issues to hide that information from the public and from even the city council. And that is unacceptable. In order to contend with the issues that our community faces. We need a mayor who will be honest when things don't go the right way when unjust when when you know unjust incidents happen you know when we have these these violent incidents we need to be clear with our community about what has happened. We can't hide it only for them to come out months later as we did, you know, as we saw with, you know, Coral Campbell and Belivance or del pozo, you know, we cannot hide these hide from the truth if we really hope to to make this change and so I think we need to really make sure that as an administration that we're bringing bringing these issues out to the public and having an honest conversation about what actually happened. And then from that, I think that we need to also be honest with ourselves I feel like one of the things that's really part and parcel to white supremacy culture is this failure to admit wrong, this inability to say you know what I really messed up there, I could have done this situation differently I could have done better. And, you know, in this particular situation what we've seen is that we have a mayor who's just unwilling to admit fall they're wrong at no point has he said you know, I really should have told you about del pozo sooner you know I really should have, you know, push them to inform the del pozo when, you know, when when these other incidents happened you know when when people are being, you know, body slammed into the ground, I should have told you that. And because I didn't you know I actually made the situation worse and I think that that is something that hasn't happened but that we really need if we're if we're truly, you know, being accountable we need a mayor who's willing to admit wrong and hold, you know, him, you know, themselves accountable when when these situations happen because that's really the only way that we were going to move forward. And I think that we have to be willing to learn from from those mistakes. The same time I think we also need to set a vision as counselor pine was saying I certainly agree with you know the need to make sure that we are tracking the data, you know around the city. It's not only when it comes to you know traffic stops and only when it comes to use of force but really broaden that that tracking effort out to you know the who what where, you know and how city services are are and are not delivered currently, and where the gaps are where the disparities exist, and then set set meaningful goals that are that that department heads as and city staff for that matter and I think it, it's going to need to include, you know, everybody in the city. And really hold those accountable and then to, I think also create forums in which you know we're actually reporting back and checking in with the public on the goals that we set and having those, you know, having the public drive those conversations. So that we're bringing you know not not just this technocratic approach to city government into accountability but making sure that we're, we're putting the people first. Thank you, Max and Brian, I appreciate both those responses for more reasons than one, especially in this current climate so thank you both for our third question. Max, this question will start with you. Many community members feel that too much of the city decision making process happens behind closed doors. How will you improve public participation in city decision making. You have three minutes. So, you know, I think it starts with, you know, recognizing that our public engagement, you know, is broken in the city and that we can do much better to bring people into the city government. You know when, and that means that you know when you have hundreds of people who have signed up for, you know, for public forum that you don't leave them out in the cold you don't cut them off you actually hear from them you engage in those conversations and that's been part of what I've been. You know I played a key role in the last year in doing I think, however, you know we need to again bring that conversation to the people bring, you know, bring meetings the people it's not enough to just schedule meeting at City Hall or in some conference room and expect people to show up you have to go to where people are and engage them in those locations and then you also have to give them meaningful say over decision making I think what we've seen. Specifically with you know planning processes or development, you know, we've seen you know a situation in play out over and over again where the outcomes, you know, feel predetermined before the process has even begun and then we have sort of this this dog and pony show this public process where you know you don't see people really people's feedback being meaningfully incorporated into the project and that often is to the detriment of the project you know I think about city place where people weighed in pretty heavily that they didn't like the height, and turns out the people were right, you know the height was actually the real problem, one of the real problems with that project in terms of its economic viability so think when we bring people in and actually validate them that we actually get, you know, we actually get a much better end product as a city. And I think that part of that is also making sure that we're giving people real decision making power, almost being willing to, to let go of things I think that one of the things we've seen is this over emphasis on control and sort of stage managing you know, in the current in the current administration and so what we need is, you know, an alternative vision that gives more power to the people that in that gives people that meaningful power that that gives the MPAs power. And I think that will actually increase that will actually increase participation in the MPAs. I think we also need to embrace a system of participatory budgeting, because, you know what we have is a system where you know we have budget sessions they're open to the people to come and this year you know we saw the greatest participation we've ever seen in the budget process but you know I think that at the end of the day it shouldn't just be up to us to decide how their money is spent we should be really putting, you know, putting a participatory budgeting system in place, and giving people real real say to not only, you know, propose what what they'd like to see in their city budget and how their money should be spent in ways that you know can actually benefit their daily lives but then to also make sure that you know what they're going to do. I hate to do it, but I just got to cut you off. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. I hate to do it. Brian, same question to you. Many community members feel that too much of the city decision making process happens behind closed doors. How will you improve public participation in city decision making, and you have three minutes. This is an especially critical time that we are sitting here in our homes, having meetings essentially on on digital formats that aren't even accessible to many people so let's just be upfront about that and I would just point out that 40 years ago, Bernie Sanders ran on the platform of opening up city government. And at that time city council met in this little room up on the third floor that is now where CEDA was located with all the doors shut and they allowed smoking in that room and it was truly smoke filled door rooms with closed doors and Bernie opened up con toys and said this is the people's auditorium. For the first time we're not just going to hold, you know, official formal functions, we're going to actually conduct the people's business here. And in doing so, we, a few years later, our own local version of C-SPAN emerged, and the people were basically allowed to watch what city government was doing because we had camera people at CCTV who had the guts and the knowledge how to do it and the dedication to make it so that people had access to decisions and the best form of democratic government is the one that has the light shining on it all the time. We need to have the people being able to see what's going on and we need to have it so that people feel that decisions are being made, at least through a thorough process. We won't always agree. We definitely won't always agree, but that's critical. I would just add that the NPAs were created with a goal in mind that was a very laudable goal. And that goal, we've never fully achieved that goal. And that is to bring direct democracy into our city in a way that can't be achieved through representative democracy. People vote every year for people and then those folks go and they try and represent them. But NPAs were intended to give people a meaningful voice in that process. And we have actually, I believe, never fully achieved the potential. And I have ideas that will come out at some point, but not within this four minutes of how we can reengage and reenergize democracy through our NPAs. But I just want to share that my experience at CEDAW, when the mayor said, develop a North Street revitalization plan, I could have just gone and hired an expert to do it. What I did was I convened tenants, homeowners, business people, nonprofit organizations, and we convened around a North Street task force that came up with a really locally focused initiative that rebuilt the public infrastructure, but did it not just to make the street look pretty and gentrify it, but did it in a way that brought opportunities for BIPOC-owned businesses. When you look at North Street today, that result shows. That effort shows. We renovated housing and made it perpetually affordable. We focused on the youth. We did focus groups for elderly, focus groups for new Americans, and we brought people to the table in that process. That's the type of public participation that we need to bring back to City Hall and I'm ready to do that. Thank you. Thank you again, Brian, and I will swing it right over to Mohammed for our fourth question. Um, so this is going to be for you, Brian. One of the things in this city was a major talking point through the past few months in this city. We have two remaining offices on a burnt police department. Many people want removed in a police union with an entrenched power resistance to large scale change. What does potential discipline for these offices look like in comparison to removal of officer benefits and how do you hope to reform the burnt police department. Okay, I will try to answer the question about the specifics of those officers. I think that's the focus there for a minute, but I'll expand upon that a little bit. I have stood firmly with my colleagues on the council in support of actions needed to really significantly change the way we police ourselves as a community. And remember, it's the people who are paying the taxes to pay the police to police our own community. So we have to just keep that in the forefront of all of our discussions, it's our police force, they need to reflect the values of this community. And I would say that the situation with what I saw, I personally believe were examples of excessive use of force were not handled properly by the chief. And ultimately, we as a community suffered significantly from the tear in our social fabric as a community when we saw what came out through the through the through the lawsuits. That's what we learned about it. We did not know what had happened. And honestly, the existing contracts that govern the way discipline is handled are completely outdated and need to be completely reduced in reform. And we need an administration that's focused on that, we need to make it really clear that we are not going to try to try to essentially shut down or close the police union down as an operation, but we need the police union to recognize that they need to reflect local community values that this community has have not been upheld. And that contract needs to be completely redone with that in mind. Moving forward, I don't have an answer today for how we're going to specifically deal with the remaining officers of the two that we feel committed excessive use of force that those issues I believe need to be handled in a way that respects the fact that there are due process requirements we as a city need to respect those processes, but I'm going to commit to finding an alternative approach to ensuring that officers who present safety concerns and make BIPOC folks feel unsafe in the community. We need to deal with that in a proactive way that I will commit to. Thank you very much for you, Max. Racial justice in this city was a major talking point through the past few months, we have two remaining officers on the Burnton Police Department. Many people want removed and a police union with entrenched power resistant to large scale change. What does potential discipline for these officers look like in comparison to the removal of officer relevance and how do you hope to reform the Burnton Police Department. I think that, you know, with with each of these these officers situations that as soon as I became, you know, aware of each of them I was horrified by them. I think that we need to make sure that we do everything that we can to hold police officers accountable and the discipline that was put down on these officers did not at all deal with the severity or recognize the harm that was caused and therefore, you know, we've seen a situation that, you know, has responded in kind. You know, which is to say that, you know, we have, you know, we've had we and the reason that we've had that situation is that again we haven't honestly addressed it, you know, from the beginning so one of the things that, you know, I'm proud to have worked on is in the BLMGB demands back last year, talking about making sure that, you know, trying to address the situation at that point. You know, while also bringing into the conversation, the notion of defunding or transforming our public safety system away from sworn officers and more to fit actual community needs like things like, you know, social workers and bringing those those kinds of positions to the floor that was a concept that alongside counselors Hanson and Freeman that that I introduced or that we that we worked on and that we that we put forward as a resolution. Fortunately that resolution failed on a nine to three. What what then happened is that we have we, you know, because of the, I think in large part because of the outpouring and the brilliant organizing of BIPOC organizers in our community and the vision set forth by, you know, leaders such as yourselves and so many others that, you know, we've seen a we saw, you know, a movement bill that was unbelievable, and that that helps to leverage and create power to transform, you know, to create a transformative resolution, the one that was put forward by Councillor Hightower in June and so I'm fully committed to realizing that that the vision that was set forth in that in that resolution so making sure that we are doing everything we can to to enable this joint committee and to accept the recommendations that have to do with transforming our public safety system I think we need to make sure that we're doing everything we can to to to speed to you know make sure that we're involving people in that conversation and engaging in a specific efforts to transition sworn officers towards towards social workers and other positions that fulfill real community needs that create real safety. With regards to the two officers specifically, I'm not willing to accept that that this is a settled issue as the mayor said I think we need to, we need to continue to look for ways to get these officers off the force. And that's that it's complicated by the fact that there are that there is a union involved but I think that just because it's hard doesn't mean that's impossible we were told that it was impossible to get Bella bands off and look what we did we were able to make that happen so I'm not not willing to accept that this is as good as we can do because so many people have told us that as long as they're on the force they don't feel safe in our community and that's just unacceptable and that's not the kind of mayor that I want to be. Thank you Brian and thank you max question number five max will go back to you difficulty finding affordable childcare is a significant barrier for many young families in Burlington. What do you plan to do to make childcare more affordable and accessible for Burlington residents. You have three minutes. Yeah, so what I would say is that we, you know what we've seen is that you know efforts to expand early childhood education under, you know, under this administration and we haven't gotten very far in fact we've seen key childcare centers close and so I think we need to redouble our efforts to make sure that we're doing everything that we can to open new childcare centers in the in Burlington, and then also make sure that we're setting a vision for how we include people in in city because childcare is a crucial issue for people's ability to be involved in city government so I think we need to set a goal of having childcare available at all city meetings and make that and you set that goal so that people are able to participate I think that that has the benefit certainly of bringing new voices to the table people who otherwise are not able to participate because you know they're not able to to either find childcare or afford childcare and so I think that that's a crucial aspect of involving people but then I think it also has an intergenerational benefit because imagine you're a kid who comes to you know City Hall and who's brought into those environments and that you know you're brought up in a place where you know you're able to and where that's part of your experience of going to those meetings it sets a very early example for people that participation is just what we do in this community and that's I think going to have benefits for for years to so I think we have to refocus our efforts on this and make sure that we're also bringing the the the effort specifically to city government to create space for people who have kids to participate more in city government. Brian and same question for you difficulty finding affordable childcare is a significant barrier for many young families in Burlington. What do you plan to do to make childcare more affordable and accessible for Burlington residents. That's a great question that often gets forgotten we're having political debates as someone who actually raised 2 sons in this community and face the challenges of obtaining childcare that was both affordable and high quality. I know the challenges that families face I know what people go through every day I have neighbors who I talked to on a regular basis. We experienced this I know single mothers that I personally have relationships with so I have a very direct personal connection to this. I work right now in my my current role. Helping organizations with any issue I work right now with the childcare organization to expand the number of slots. I've succeeded in helping them stay open during the pandemic and reopen and expand the number of slots they have available because I understand how to navigate the process of both permitting and financing and state right licensing requirements and I understand what's involved in actually providing childcare and ensuring that the children have the most enriching opportunity but also that the workers who are doing the work who are never paid enough for taking care of our children helping making our children ready to go to school. We have a completely broken system where the workers don't make enough and the parents who need it can't afford anymore. So we need to be bold and courageous about working with our state to find new force new sources of revenue and to ensure that childcare opportunities in Burlington that we preserve every single space we have today and that we grow those spaces. And when the mayor was advancing this early learning initiative. It was I would say it was faltering and it went on for about a year or two where it was really just a series of sort of studies and essentially white papers and it was, there was no real outcome. And essentially we as a city council sort of stepped in and said we need to see some action, and I was I was included by the mayor someone who sat on the committee that looked at and tried to and brought about the real action around early learning that led to the expansion of slots for the lowest income families in Burlington, we have way more work to do, but I believe this community can rally if we have the right right leadership. And I believe that leadership needs to be inclusive needs to bring voices to the table that haven't been included and needs to center those voices in all of our decisions. Thank you Brian and thank you Max as well it looks like I've lost my partner so I will take over his role and and and asking his question. Number six, the homeless pot and Brian will start with you again. The homeless population is often stigmatized and disenfranchised in the city. How will you support folks experiencing homelessness in Burlington to make sure their immediate needs are met, so that they are treated with greater dignity in our city. My first involvement with homelessness goes way back to the time when COTS was really early on just getting going and they were proposing converting a building on Elma Avenue into what are called single room occupancies that's when you actually live in a room, but you share the bathroom and you have a common kitchen. It was very divisive in the neighborhood, and the neighbors unfortunately pushed back pretty hard, and I as somebody who wasn't a city council yet, but it was a housing activist and attendance activist, tried to reach out and form relationships with neighbors to work through these issues, because we as a community need to acknowledge that homelessness is something that could affect anyone anyone anyone in this community could end up homeless. It wasn't welcomed by the neighbors but in the end it was successful and there are 24 SROs which means 24 rooms for people who are formerly homeless with a variety of services to wrap around them and provide them with the support to succeed. And eventually didn't take long at all for the neighbors to realize. This is an incredible asset, because the people living there all of a sudden were community members they were offering to help people shovel and they were sleeping sidewalks and all of a sudden, people who they feared turned out to be wonderful incredible neighbors. I have relationships directly with people with lived experience in homelessness but more importantly, I've gone and actually met with the homeless at the homeless encampments in the south end to find out what it's like and what do you need what kind of support do you need from the city so last summer I went and met with some folks living in an encampment and I heard directly what their needs were and their needs are actually quite simple. They just want to save place to be able to stay and be left alone and be outside and have some have some basic services. And so I would like to initiate a new effort that would essentially make camping at various locations with certain sanitation services provided by the city. As a way that we respond to this need because as they told me, even though there are shelters available in their housing programs and all kinds of programs this is a population that really has some barriers that they personally can't overcome that will enable them to succeed in that situation so they need this opportunity to be able to camp out. Just want to mention for five years I chaired the homeless alliance for Chittenden County, which was based out of Burlington, and we brought a really data driven focus to how homelessness could be not just sort of relieved or alleviated but actually eliminated. And we've made some major progress with veteran homelessness, and it was recently announced that veteran homelessness is is by and large been in the result I don't pretend that that's necessarily true. At least the numbers are so low that veterans and experiencing homelessness is down to a level that is, is where we would hope as a community we can get all homeless populations, there's very specific knowledge I have around homelessness and creating programs, directing funding at homeless programs that I would bring to this position as bear. Thank you Brian and Max to you the same question. The homeless population is often stigmatized and disenfranchised in the city. How will you support folks experiencing homelessness in Burlington to make sure that their immediate needs are met, and so that they are treated with greater dignity in our city. So I think that you know what this pandemic has shown us is that it's possible to house a lot more people and to do so a lot more quickly, and I think that you know in a lot of in a lot of ways it's not a question of feasibility but it is a, it is one of will, and our willingness to really focus on these issues and, and make them actually happen I think we can't allow ourselves to fall prey to the false narrative of scarcity. So when it comes to housing and our ability to do to house everyone in our community. You know that wants to be housed. And so I think that it's important to make sure that we're that we're just setting that as sort of our framework for the city that we're putting a housing first model as a, as a priority. And that we're doing so in a way that's that's dignified and not being prescriptive or paternalistic about how we do it, you know, it's not, you know, okay to just come in and say, you know, we're, you know, gonna, gonna build, you know, a housing, you know, you know, homeless, you know, housing for homelessness people and shipping containers without having a conversation with people about whether or not that's actually what they want. And so, you know, I think that we really have to again meet people where they are and understand what they want when it comes to it. I think that another piece of it is that we also need to make sure that we're not further creating, you know, further destabilizing and dehumanizing people really when it comes to homelessness by giving prey to, you know, by you know, by falling into the mindset that we, you know, that that the way to solve some of the problems that, you know, that we that we have, you know, in our community is to to focus on criminalization, this is something that comes up, you know, seemingly cyclically, you know, within the city of Burlington I sort of cut my, my, my teeth in in city organizing when it came, you know, in fighting what was then a sitting band there was actually if you can believe it a proposal on the table to ban sitting on city streets and so with other organizers worked to actually defeat that going to ordinance committee meetings and making sure that we defeated that I think that it, you know, it bears upon us to also, you know, with renewed calls in a lot of cases to further criminalize, you know, what people call, you know, behaviors really it's, it's, you know, things that, that, that, you know, I think are really more targeted towards homeless people that we need to resist those calls and that we need to make sure that we're focusing on root causes. You know, like, for instance, people say that they want to increase and attach additional criminal penalties to public urination, well, that's not the, that's not going to solve the problem what's going to solve the problem is providing good clean bathroom access public bathroom access, you know, we open one bathroom in City Hall Park recently but that's certainly not enough and so we have to create those those kinds of root cause solutions to these issues that respect people and that don't further destabilize their lives by, you know, criminalizing them or you know, even worse, you know, just taking their positions removing their encampments and creating further destabilization because that just makes it so much harder for folks to really exist with dignity in our community makes it impossible in fact and so we need to set a new vision that that again puts people first and prioritizes their voices in the conversation as opposed to being, you know, paternalistic in how we deal with these these issues. Thank you Max and thank you Brian again. Mohammed I will give this give the baton. Go ahead, Brian. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't use up all my time I just wanted to add one thing if I could is that okay. Yeah. It's not actually in response to anything that Max said really it's actually just to add that when COVID was just becoming we're heading into the shutdown in March. I decided that they would focus on getting homeless people out of shelters and getting them hopefully out of the woods to prevent further spread both among their communities and to make sure the conditions that they were living in didn't present more health hazards. I was tapped by the Executive Director of Champlain Valley Office of Economic Opportunity to set up a COVID recovery and isolation facility in a very short period of time to serve the homeless. This is the end of March, and by April 13, we had the first guest arrived at the holiday in which we converted from a hotel to a COVID isolation and recovery center. And what was required to do that was to really use the resources this community in a way that is only something if you've had the experience doing it. And so that type of experience I think is unique in terms of being able to implement really great ideas and critical ideas and need to happen quickly, but I just wanted to share that that was something that I was involved with and successful we succeeded so well that we put ourselves out of a job about two months later. Thank you, Brian. Max we are doing okay on time if you had one other thing to say or you're all set. Excellent, Mohammed, I'm going to hand the baton back to you. I do want the audience that we have and our candidates know that following this last question we will move into getting our questions from the participants or not participants but the viewers rather. So just wanted to let you know that we will do that shift for the last five, 10 minutes that we have and then we will allow a few minutes each for just closing statements so that we can hear your last thoughts as well. Thank you. All right. It's going to be for Max. How will the candidate center marginalized voices in their campaign and if elected in their administration. It's a crucial question and one that I think starts with recognizing what it means to be, you know, a white person and what you're in and understanding the privilege that you bring to the table, you know, both as a white person and then also male privilege. I mean, all of those, all of those kinds of things that come to the, that come to the fore as part of that. I think it's also as part of that understanding that you need to shut up and get out of the way. In a lot of cases, and when when people bring you a vision for how you can, you can transform the city as for instance the racial justice alliance has done with Operation Phoenix rise. You need to not put up barriers, you need to bring that vision to the fore and do everything you can to realize it you know when you have visions that that were brought forward like the reparations task force you know don't put up barriers to that make that happen. You know, and then in terms of just, you know, city meetings, you know, I think we need to not only get more people to city meetings I think we've been seeing some great participation happening recently but then, you know, when we need to understand that what happens when people get there because we need to just have more people show up. I think we really need to understand how we treat people there and I've been, you know, what one of the things that I've done is City Council President as to be as has been to introduce a progressive stack. So what that means is to just make sure that we're putting BIPOC voices first in the conversation, moving them up in that conversation, which I think has helped to help us to focus the conversation in important ways and has brought, you know, I think those those voices to the front are important as opposed to, you know, just just kind of mixing mixing things in and I think that these things are crucial to making people feel like their voices matter and to encourage people to not just show up once but to show up again. So I think it's not just about, you know, how you know, not just about, you know, shutting up and getting out of the way but it's also about creating conditions within city government for BIPOC voices to thrive once they get there. Before we move on to Brian, I just wanted to give a quick plug to the folks that are viewing to please send in any questions that you have in the comments. I know Brian and Max are doing excellent but we I'm sure we have more questions as well so please throw them in the comments if you're if you're viewing. Thank you. Thank you very much Max. So, as for you, Brian, how will you center marginalized voices in your campaign and if elected in your administration. Oh, thank you very much that's I think that is one of the most critical questions here that we face today. We have talked and and talked and talk is important it's part of the process, but we all will hopefully be judged by by our actions and I, I believe that we need to fundamentally shift the dialogue and we need to acknowledge. And again, when we say white supremacy culture, we need to make it so that it's a household term and a household concept and bring people along on the journey of addressing white supremacy culture. White supremacy culture is the idea that white people and the beliefs, ideas, thoughts, and culture and actions of white people are superior to people of color. It is often rooted in and reproduced by the institutions of our society at the highest level and right down to the local level. Major characteristics that I want to just point out our perfectionism. So you you seek the perfect and you might even throw the good and pursuit of perfect. If you're thinking there's either my way, or the highway it's sort of a sense of urgency that we absolutely have to do it this way and we need to do it right now, even if we don't bring people along we need to do things right now, forgetting that long term durable sustainable change is what's going to get us there. It's going to get us there. If we have the right kind of leadership, and that leadership recognizing there isn't always one, there isn't often there isn't just one right way. There are multiple right ways, we can agree on what the values are, as a community, and, and doing that, I believe will center marginalized voices I think we can come back to ways that we can reach people new ways that we can encourage people we have to break down barriers and ask why aren't people more active in our local democracy. We're going to embark BIPOC folks at the table more, we have to ask those questions in a really deep way and seek those answers. And I believe that we have the ability to do that, if we have the if we have the will to do that. I want to just highlight that there are times when we make decisions as a city council, where we actually make decisions without considering the needs of our BIPOC communities and other marginalized voices. And we have, I believe, the need for a new approach that reaches out to folks before we come up with plans, before we come up with ideas and policies and decisions in a really meaningful way to engage people. And I personally have spent time visiting with residents of, you know, affordable housing complexes I serve on a board, an organization where we go out and knock on doors and talk directly with the people who are affected by the decisions. And in many cases, the folks that we're meeting with our marginalized folks, and we really want to ensure that they not just feel welcome. But that we it's incumbent upon us as elected officials to take our power and our privilege and go out and actually seek their ideas seek their input in a way that is genuine and is meaningful and gives an opportunity to change the way we're not just thinking, but the policies and programs and the policies that we've come up with has to be informed by those conversations. It's not enough just to have what are what are often called performative measures, where we put out great statements or we put out press releases or we hold press conferences. Those are not as meaningful to me as the real change that you can get when you go and meet with BIPOC business owners and find out what are you facing what are your challenges. What's the what's the thing that you worry about and keeps you awake at night. You find out what those are, and then you go back and you inform your decisions and your administration to reflect the needs of marginalized voices from those conversations. So that's the, that's the focus I would bring. I have a lifetime of doing that I've lived in the old north end for 35 years, and I bring a steadfast commitment to the people who are marginalized in this society by due to due to no fault of their own marginalized and and are kept at the edge of being marginalized and are never able to read but achieve full participation in this community. I want to elevate those voices bring them in, and I will do that from day one. Thank you Brian and thank you Max. That does conclude the questions that we had prepared looking stuff. All right looks like we do we do have some questions coming in all right. Our first question. What specific strategies will you employ to engage non English speaking residents of Burlington and we will go with Brian start. I think we just saw through the through the efforts around the pandemic that translation services and I think Mojo knows what I'm talking about. We're not provided in a meaningful way until it was pointed out by community members that we were ignoring the needs of non folks whom English is not their first language of limited English proficiency is as a campaign are going to be ensuring that our website is accessible. So that's something we're personally doing, and I haven't had the time yet to ensure that's the case but that's a commitment made. It, it, it does take extra effort and it takes extra resources, but it's, it's absolutely a essential way to achieve full participation in democracy we can't move forward. We're leaving people out, because we have left out their ability to participate through language barriers that is a completely accept unacceptable. In the year 2020 that a local government would not be thinking first and foremost about the considerable growing populations of people English language learners and folks who struggle to engage with their city government because of language barriers. We have the multilingual liaisons that are currently part time positions, and yet they're expected to bring families into the schools, ensure that the the seamless support of those families and their children is in place. We need full time multilingual liaison to work with families and we need that to be supported by the city, the city essentially captured recaptured dollars from the school district, because of a requirement that I won't go into detail but essentially came in and the resources that comes to the city to support the schools was deemed ineligible, or not, it was not prohibited by the state, but instead of finding ways to ensure that we make sure those dollars are used to support new American families in a really meaningful way so that their children and their parents both have access to full range of resources is is something that I would bring to the table and I believe that there's still resources available for us to expand upon that and to make the homeschool multilingual liaisons into permanent positions full time positions with benefits and make those decent career paths for new Americans to fill because those positions are filled by new American community members. And in Winooski they've made them into much more robust set of services, and we in Burlington have not followed suit and I would make that a top priority. I also would like to see us ensure that that small business assistance is focused on meeting the needs of the new American American community, because in many instances self employment provides a path to wealth building and a decent standard of living for family, and that self employment needs to be recognized as a viable option, but we need to provide technical assistance, you know, business plan assistance, all kinds of assistance to help people move from their idea of what their businesses to the reality. And then in turn, they turn around and they keep their resources local they hire local people. It has multiplier effects are you trying to say I'm done. Yeah, I'm just going to cut you. I've wrapped up I'll come back to that. And Max same question to you I will give you just an extra minute just because I wasn't watching the clock. What are sorry, what specific strategies will you employ to engage non English speaking residents of Burlington. Thanks for the question. Whoever entered in appreciate the participation I understand we have quite a few folks watching which is awesome we really appreciate that that's the whole point of this process and so I in terms of specific strategies I think that we need to do much more than we're currently doing. I think that anything that that has come has been through you know efforts of folks like yourself Muhammad who have pointed out the real shortcomings of the city and so when people come to us with these recommendations around this we need to around the needs of our community and point these things out we need to really act on them and make sure that we're bringing them to the fore so I think that there's a couple areas where we've seen some some pretty glaring, you know, some of the shortcomings in terms of the city you know one of the areas where this this came out was you know when there were there was a water main break last year, and they send out emergency notifications only in English well that doesn't cover the entire community so there was a whole group of people who had no idea. And so I think that when we when we find ourselves in these needs with a need to communicate critical information that we always have to despite the, you know, the immediacy of the situation. Just check back in and make sure that we're doing everything we can to communicate that information properly to everybody. So, and this is part of I think institutionalizing how we communicate as a city so we're always asking that question of, you know, how, you know, how are we communicating this information so I think that, you know, because for instance, you know, like for instance on the city website it was really hard to find translation services it's gotten better I think we're going to need to continue to make those efforts, you know front and center I think it's also going to have to be really helpful to understand, and to put out in multiple languages on, you know, on social media channels but we have to understand that you know not everybody uses that and that that's not the way to access them so again to that concept of bringing city government to the people, making sure that you're also doing that sort of physical outreach and not just doing it in English but also print things out and actually bring them to to the community so that people know about it and then you know if in the context of you know inviting you're, you know, or letting people know that a meeting is taking place, you know, in, you know, in any number of different languages I think that we also need to make sure that when people get to that meeting that there are translation services available so that people can participate in city government, you know we just had a city council meeting, you know, last week where we were talking about where we were dealing with licensing issues and we had someone who mentioned that they were not that they were an English language learner on that call and so, and that you know that that this posed a challenge them and they acknowledge that in the meeting and it was one of those things that really highlighted the need for us to develop targeted specific outreach for people when they're coming to city council meetings to make sure that they have the context that's that that's necessary in order to participate and that they have that they're able to understand the language that they're able to understand what's taking place. Thank you. He doing it. I hate doing it. All right, our next question. This question will start with max. Actually, I'm going to go to the next question. I'll revisit that one but I'd like to. And I'd like this one answered first. What are your plans to better serve the disabled population in the city of Burlington max you've got three minutes. I'm sorry now I have to be a little bit more reinforcing of the timeframe. To both. Absolutely so I think that one of the things is that we need to make sure that we're doing everything we can to incorporate universal design into into city designs and making sure that any new designs that we're having are not, you know, building in new projects to the city but but rather that are removing them and creating a more accessible city. And when you do that that just that that that that creates the context for people to include them to be included into access the public realm. Think that it's that it's crucial that you know we and this this goes part and a crucial part of that is also making sure that we just take care of our city infrastructure I've advocated for, you know, investing in specifically in our sidewalks because it's really hard for for people who use wheelchairs to get around in the in many cases because of the deteriorated conditions that we find in so many places around our city so I've advocated for, and as mayor would continue to make significant investments in our in in our cities, while also providing upgraded crosswalks and, and, and making sure that we're doing everything we can to make it easier to get around, you know, in our city. And, and then the other piece is also making sure that you know when we talk about city government as well. And city meetings that we're creating opportunities again and I think this is, you know, part of the, the translation pieces that we're also dealing with, and making sure that we're creating opportunities for folks with disabilities to participate in in city meetings by providing the necessary accommodations that create the context in which people are able to actually participate in in city government because I think that that's, you know, that the way that we've been doing things you know has creates unnecessary barriers and keeps those voices out of City Hall, and that's not what we need we need to be bringing as many voices as possible into City Hall, and our policies can be transformative and in how we do that. Thank you and Brian to you the same question. What are your plans to better serve the disabled population in the city of Berlin. Sure, it wasn't that long ago that we had an accessibility committee, and that has not been staffed and has not been kept current so we don't really have a focus on accessibility. So I think we need to move to a priority for the city to ensure that when we do things like capital needs assessments and we determine things like where the paving and curb dollars or I'm sorry the sidewalk dollars are going that we have accessibility advocates at the table, we need to include them and give them resources so they can actually participate in the way. We started doing a project in our neighborhood and it and it made it became more difficult with COVID of asking residents to point out areas of the sidewalk that need to be addressed and getting pictures and getting the address and, and it got right complicated and realize that it's actually not the role of the city counselor even though it was an interesting project. So I brought it to the public works department attention and it was able to get them to focus on a little bit but I would say we have concepts around universal design so that all buildings have to include features that make them accessible and visit a visitation visitable so that anyone can visit a building if they have a physical disability. I think we also have to acknowledge that there's a number of disabilities that aren't visible and mental illness is is one that is a serious disability and needs to be accounted for. We need to ensure that you know one of the things that's come out of our experience as a community around the pandemic is that people who never had access because we're doing things through zoom. Now we're able to participate, and I was a delegate to the Democratic National Convention along with somebody who said this convention was extremely accessible for me as a person in a wheelchair is over monitor who's also a Bernie delegate. And he said, I don't, I didn't feel this way in 2016 and we were both delegates that as well but now in 2020. Here we are essentially conducting a convention through zoom, but she was able to participate more fully in that process so it really. In a few minutes a step back and think about what does that mean. And what can we do as a community to make sure that we come out of this in a way that takes the benefits of what we've learned in this pandemic, and make sure that we don't forget and don't abandon what we've started is making everything much more accessible through that also I just want to mention that accessibility is affects seniors disproportionately, and that seniors need to be given the support to age in place we have to bolster the home share system. We need to ensure that our, our home care providers and the home care workers who help help people age in place, have decent living livable wages and benefits so that we can keep people safe and healthy in their community in their homes, but we do that through wrapping around a series of supports to ensure that people can can live, continue to live out their days in their own homes and that's a piece of dignity that I would like to bring to city government. Thank you. Thank you to the both of you. We have one final and last question we have time for one final and last question before we do our closing statements. And this question comes from myself. So, Brian max you are both white men. So, my question is, how do you see the systems that exist and how do you recognize yourself and your role in those systems and what does that mean as a mayor, who are well if you win as someone who will be a mayor of a very diverse city how do you see your role and and what do you plan to do in recognizing that role and also kind of pointing it out. For this one, I think we went with Brian last time we'll go with max or was it the other way around please correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, Brian, you go first. Yep. Sure. Thank you for that question and I just, you know, I think it's always important for us to kind of reflect a little bit on our own personal journey and our own personal perspective and a friend of mine shared this metaphor with me and the way it was described as racism, anti racism work is like taking a walk in a beautiful forest with a deep green canopy. And through that canopy, dense streams of light shine through in the beams of light. There are particles that are always there, but we don't usually see them. And for white people, racism is like the particles in the light that we don't always see that are always present. We need to be as white people, we need to take responsibility for what we can do. And our journey needs to be our journey and it shouldn't fall on BIPOC community members to bring us on that journey, we need to personally take responsibility to do the personal learning to do the listening to do the meaningful engagement with people to do the readings and the research we need to actually engage in this work, as though our life depended on it because it does depend on we as especially as white males positions of power need to constantly find ways to include voices who are left out need to include people of color need to include folks with disabilities, LGBTQ plus communities, everyone needs to be thought of when we are planning our administration and when we are planning for initiatives that will bring our community to a better, more secure, more sustainable future. We can't do those and really achieve that and achieve full full participation by voices that are often marginalized. And I, I have experience doing that. I will pretend to have all the answers, but as a white person in this society, my commitment is to engage people in a really meaningful way in our government, and to be that person who can listen to people solicit input. And again solicit input from people who aren't already at the table. And that is my pledge to this community. If I'm lucky enough to proceed through this process. I pledge to do that in a way that is respectful of people's dignity and as inclusive as possible. And I will look forward to doing that as as Mayor Burlington. Thank you. I have a question to you. How do you plan to just recognize your identity as a white male and how that perpetuates some of the systems that exists and what do you plan to do to again recognize it but also point it out. So understanding and recognizing and calling out your your own privilege and I know that I have tremendous privilege in our in our society and that that privilege is grounded in white supremacy culture so I think you have to understand that, you know, what that means and I think that so much of what is called upon it, you know, those of us who are, you know, white males in the society is to really be willing to question that privilege in meaningful ways and I'm only to question it but to really change and take action on it and I think that, you know, as a part and as a part of that we need to make sure that we're doing everything we can to listen. So that goes back to what I was saying about shutting up and getting out of the way when BIPOC voices come to the table with a vision for, you know, what they need to be empowered and, you know, that we create the conditions for that to thrive for those visions to thrive. But I think it's also, you know, when we do hear criticism being willing to accept that criticism and to admit fault and to admit wrong as leaders and to be self reflective ourselves, you know, and that can certainly be painful but it's necessary because that's the only way that we're going to dismantle white supremacy culture is to have that willingness to directly admit, you know, where we've gone wrong and to address it. I think that there's also, you know, a need to again make sure that we're listening to folks and bringing and centering those voices in the conversation. I think that, you know, in any conversation, recognizing, you know, who isn't speaking and the space that you're taking up, but then also who isn't speaking and making sure that you're making special efforts to elevate those voices that haven't participated yet in the conversation, you know, in a particular context because that's crucial to making sure that we, that we, you know, are the just city that we know that we can be. We have, you know, not only an opportunity but an obligation to be a more inclusive city. And that's exactly what I want to do as mayor. All right, again, Brian and Max, thank you very much. That does conclude for our questions. I'd like to just move us into our final statements, I did lose my coin I was going to do a coin flip for the final statement as well. Instead, we're going to turn it into a little bit of a competition. My favorite number is in between zero and 10. You each get to pick a number whoever is closest or hits the dot gets to go first. Brian, if you will unmute both of you can just kind of say what number you think that comes to mind from zero to 10. Number seven is your favorite. So, it is seven I don't know that spot. So Brian you get to closing statement and then Max you will close this after that. Okay. I am incredibly honored and humbled by this, not just this experience tonight but by this whole experience of attempting to lay out a vision and to demonstrate the type of inclusive leadership that I would provide to this community. For me, racial justice is a personal journey, but it's also a systemic journey in order for it to be sustainable and truly transformative. We need to personally take responsibility for our role in participating in a society which is fundamentally based on a series of policies and practices that over centuries have kept BIPOC communities from full participation and from full benefits of being part of our society. We have a opportunity, I believe to turn over a new page and to open a new chapter. And my vision for writing that new chapter is that I have not at all thought through what that outline of that new chapter will look like, because it doesn't make sense. In my opinion, as someone who's dedicated to bringing new voices into the process to think that we have the answers to think that we have all of this figured out as elected officials. Our role is again to provide old leadership to provide a vision, but that vision in my mind needs to be informed by an inclusive dedication to an inclusive process that brings people along on their journey. And it acknowledges that we have so much in common, we have so much more that unites us as a community and divides us. And we all want, I believe the same thing we all want safety, security, opportunity, want our families to be able to thrive. And when we acknowledge that we share in common those goals. I believe that our future is incredibly promising, but we need a future that is centered in reorienting our priorities to provide pathways to leadership for BIPOC community members. And we need to ensure that our administration or city government reflects this community, both in terms of BIPOC community, but also in terms of gender we have a very white male dominated city government and we need to acknowledge that and take responsibility for changing that. Part of that is creating a culture that invites people in and makes people realize that they can make a positive impact, make a lasting impact, and be guided by a set of values that is broadly held in this community. And I'm incredibly excited by this opportunity that we have. Thank you very much. Thank you. Go right in. Wonderful. I just want to thank both you, Mohammed and Mojo and Mohammed Abdi as well for for moderating this conversation. Again, just think that this has been an awesome opportunity to share our visions for the city of Burlington. We have an important conversation and to center our conversation ourselves as we head into this mayor's race in social justice, in racial justice and our plans for how we might address those issues if we serve as mayor of the city of Burlington. I think that for too long, as I said at the beginning, our city of the city of Burlington has not done enough to address these issues. And I think that we're in a position now where we have not only an opportunity but an obligation to address these issues and to do so in a systemic fashion. I think that it's, you know, what I've learned is that, you know, well, it's necessary to and important to do the individual work that I think is all about the reflection and self transformation and recognition of one's privilege in this society. I think that it's also crucial to create systems and particularly systems of accountability around these issues, because it's not enough to just bring in, you know, the right people. It's about bringing in those people but then also making sure that that when they get there that they have the opportunities that they need to have their voices heard their ideas brought their ideas actual actualized and to make sure that that the vision, you know, is more just and equitable city is is actually built by people of color built by LGBT folks built by the folks with disabilities built by the poor, and that we create that that we create the conditions for greater civic engagement, because when we do that, you know, we see that we have the opportunity for transformation I think that you know one of the things that I think back on is how, you know, going back to that notion of not having done, you know, nearly all these issues you know I think one of the things that has helped to wake up our city, you know, around these issues was the massive public forum that we had, you know when you bring people to the table, give them the opportunity to participate. You can see incredible things happen and I think that, you know, we see that we we we change the conversation around race as a city, you know and around racial justice, bringing to the, you know and specifically around public safety because we brought them the chance to have their voices heard because we didn't cut them off, you know, after, you know, after, you know, only a couple hours we stayed up till all hours of the night to bring those voices in and that that was crucial and in terms of realizing, you know, a transformational change and creating the conditions for that I think that, you know that it's also crucial that we not just deal with and and and provide a public safe and transform a public safety system in which you know all people are held accountable I think that's, you know, one of the things that, you know, that we absolutely have to do we have to bring renewed accountability to our public safety systems specifically through a charter change that focuses on accountability within our police force but that you know we can't stop there we have an opportunity as a city to create a new vision for public safety that that that transforms our police department from one that does not keep all our community members safe but to one that, you know is is more in line with our community values and that addresses the root causes of you know so many issues that we face as a city so I think that that's paramount but that we can't forget that there's that that we need to also empower people around cultural around their cultures around their, you know, around economics and making sure that we're creating pathways for that empowerment to take place. And I think that city government can play a crucial role in doing that. If we are, if we use city government in an activist fashion that we can actually create meaningful change around so many of these issues that will stand and start contrast to what we see today, where you know we've only made you know halting progress on these issues and so this is what I want to see if I if I'm elected as your next mayor and that that I would hope to bring to the table is that collaborative inclusive and equitable vision for the city of Burlington. Thank you Max Thank you Brian Thank you for all the folks that are viewing I do just want to make one last announcement that you please do register for the caucus on December 1 at 630 will be virtual so you can keep your pajamas on, please do where appropriate Else elsewhere. So we will see you then. Otherwise again thank you so much I mean I speaking for myself I'm humble to be here. It's been an incredible opportunity to ask these quite these important questions and really sparked these discussions that actually are have already been going on so, Mohammed I'm sure you have something to add as well otherwise thank you again to all the viewers and to the candidates and to the progressive party as well. Same here I like to thank all you guys for coming and on representing what you're going to be doing as you go for office but I would just like to just clarify that. We have to like understand that when we say the community we're not talking about the white community we're talking about the minorities here. And even though we do have a majority white community in Vermont we have to understand that, despite the low population of minorities we have in here. We still have to understand that they are the ones that are in pain. They have been literally crying for about a whole month and like They weren't even given what they wanted and I just want to let you guys know that if you guys are not able to give these minorities what they need, then you shouldn't try to talk about it you know I mean Thank you very much. All right, thank you all I think that concludes our live I don't or our session our forum. I don't know how else otherwise other than to log out so I guess thank you again.