 Okay, good morning. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech and we have Eric Gilley joins us today from Unite Here Local 5. Welcome to the show, Eric. Aloha. Aloha. Boy, you are the man. I mean, if there's anybody central covering all the bases in the tourism industry, in the hotel and hospitality industry, it's you. You must be working your buns off right now trying to keep everything together. How's your day going? Well, nothing bad happened so far today. How many members you have out there, Eric? How many members who are in distress? Well, we got thousands of members simultaneously unemployed in a huge unprecedented meltdown of our industry here and across the country. And our union, of course, represents people across the mainland as well. So we've had, let's put it this way, we spent three weeks helping our members do cross-testing their unemployment. The state system was woefully unprepared, crashed, still crashed. And what you see the state workers now doing, to get online and help people process, we've been doing for weeks. And so, basically, our union has, for most of the past month, been engaged mostly in social service, essential worker work. And my staff has been working on behalf of the state to do those things. So I think we've been able to register our members that we had a big load. We had to reorganize our staff and distribute calls out to people's homes and be able to return thousands of phone calls and work people through, you know, sometimes difficult online processing in the face of crashing of systems and so on. And so, we've been mostly working on trying to take care of the folk and see what we can do to help them salvage something of their lives. And we're mostly through that piece of the unemployment assistance because we've managed to get most of our members done. And so, that'll be a big relief when people start getting their checks, which many people are still waiting. Am I right to say that the phenomenon that has been so often described, namely that people do not have a safety net, they don't have money in the bank, they don't have resources that will carry them for more than a few weeks. Is that true in any substantial part for hotel workers? Yes. Look, I mean, we had a big strike a couple years ago, and it was about one job being an outfitted. The truth is, most of our members are now laid off from multiple jobs. And so, you know, nobody's making it great in Hawaii on, I'm proud of the amount of wages and benefits we've been able to generate for our members. But the truth is, people still have to work two or three jobs to get by, and now they don't have two or three jobs. So, it is a, you know, it's a, you know, it's a collapse of people's hopes and dreams and expectations. And it's, you know, it's a massive disaster in terms of, you know, thousands and thousands of families are now in duress and distress. And many, many thousands of people, thankfully not yet including most of my hotel members, are out of medical benefits as they prefer. Have they been terminated? Is that what the hotels did? Well, none of our hotels have said people are terminated. We've had different things. We've suspended operations, we're closing the hotel. They're effectively closed, except for a few places. And in some cases, they took away people's badges and, and locker keys and, you know, we're scratching our heads. But truthfully, I'd like, I would like it to be true that you say that I'm in the middle of everything. The truth is, these hotel companies are not engaging with us in any meaningful way at this point. So we, you know, they are not paying medical into the trust fund. They are not employing people or paying people's wages. They basically just closed down and threw everybody on the street. And, and we are now ensuring them in providing health and welfare insurance out of the reserves that a health and welfare fund, because the hotels who are the employers in the fund have refused to put any money into covered people's health and welfare. So we're burning our reserves. And how long can you keep on going like that? Well, that's a good question. And many things depend on it. You know, for example, our reserves are held in various investment vehicles. And so far, the value has held up. However, that's unpredictable, obviously. And selling investments to try to go to cash is also unpredictable at this point. Or you'd end up locking in losses and so on and so forth. So the value of our reserves is obviously a concern. The burn rate of the reserves is also a concern. Because in essence, we're providing medical benefits for people with no income to support that. And therefore, we're just burning our, you know, burning our reserve tank. And so this question of how long this goes on. And it's a question of how well we control control costs. And a lot of those things are hard to tell right now. Obviously, we are fortunate in that our trust fund is self-insured so we can just pay claims. So in other words, we don't have to pay premiums for most of our members on a monthly basis. And obviously right now with many medical services restricted, dentists are closed and so on and so forth, the number of claims is probably much less than usual right now. But we won't really know until the billings come in and we can add them all up. Am I right to conclude that if somebody is sick, somebody has a coronavirus among your membership, you're covering medical expenses at least for now? We are covering medical expenses for our members, yes. And we have already taken action to do so through September. So I believe that's probably the most security of workers in Hawaii in terms of their health and welfare benefits. Other unions and employers have paid medical through May, for example. But our employers haven't paid anything, even though in some of their other operations where there is no trust fund with the union members having saved up these reserves, then they've paid directly and insured people through May. But at the same time have refused to put anything in to cover our members. It strikes me as worth a question, namely you have hotels and other institutions in your group of employers of all sizes and shapes and kinds. Some of them are local obviously, some of them are national, some of them have very shallow pockets and they can't go on without revenue. Others have deep pockets and they can't. But are you saying that all of them have somehow magically come to the same conclusion? They're not going to pay these benefits, they're not going to keep the health benefits going, they've all decided the same way? With one exception so far, I'm happy to say the Lake Ikki Resort is a small hotel, it's a Korean-owned hotel. And they have committed to paying enough hours in to pay the minimum number of hours in to maintain medical at least so far. And so because our members work on it, our fund has a tail if you will. So people have several months of coverage which the fund now has to cover in any event that was the structure of a fund. So nobody had to do that. And in fact, the employers have taken advantage of that since the fund reserves are covering our members, they've decided that they don't need to put any money in. And of course, on a short-term strategy, okay, maybe, but without any money coming in and money going out, sooner or later we run out of money and are unable to ensure our people. And that would transfer thousands and thousands of people somewhere. There is no way that Quest or any other insurer can match our efficiency. We have our own network of contracts with hospitals and providers and we're self-insured. So we can pay claims and do the most efficient expensing of people's health and welfare benefits of anybody out there. But we need money to come in in order to keep doing it. And right now we don't have money coming in. And so of course it's concerned since it's not clear when or how hotels will reopen, how many workers will go back to work by when, when they do go back to work, how much money will be generated from it for their benefits in that regard. But I don't anticipate that hotels will suddenly resume with 98% occupancy and everybody working. So we have to have resources to cover our people over the long term. And the truth is, I find it despicable that the employers have chosen to, in essence, rob, steal our reserves, which workers have put aside through their own decision-making by consciously awarding more of their available money to health and welfare over the last 10 years. And we built up these reserves. And this was all workers' decisions to defer part of what otherwise would become wages. And now the employers are stealing that and evading their responsibility to the workers they just laid off. I'm very disappointed with the industry. And I would point out that this is a function of our rotten capitalist system, if you will. Our owners are the biggest of the big. The owners of the hotels are big, huge REITs. They're big, huge equity, private equity companies. And they've been sipping at the public trough all these years. And now they're in Washington trying to grab all the candy falling from the federal pinata as trillions of dollars of federal money. That's what they're concentrating on, is how to get money for themselves. And really, none of them really care about us. And that's shown in the congressional legislation. Nothing for health and welfare so far. What about the individuals? Are there any federal benefits coming out of the 2.3 trillion to your members? Are they getting checks? You see any checks, Eric? Well, I've heard that some people have received stimulus checks. It's hard for us to quantify that and figure that out. We hear of people having gotten some. Obviously, the additional unemployment insurance, the additional $600 a week, that's obviously of help when people receive it. I don't think anybody's got that additional amount yet. And the fact is, if you're laid off of two jobs, you only can collect so much on employment. And so even with that extra money, people are certainly becoming poorer and poorer. Well, I want to return to the point about what happens on the restart. As and when and to the extent there is a restart. The first question I have on that is, and we touched on this before the show began, is there should be, I think there should be a discussion around the table on this between labor and management about how things are going to restart. Because the industry, and we can cover this too, will not be the same. It'll be different. So has there been any meetings, any discussions around the table? Have you been brought in? Because certainly you're an essential element of any restart, no? Well, certainly I would agree with you on that. Right now, the hotels are magnificently unresponsive in fairness to them. They've laid off their HR departments and the people that we usually deal with. And in fairness to them, everybody's shook up and dislocated by this. And their numbers are in a trash can too. Obviously hotel revenues suddenly shutting off affects everybody. And so management obviously is affected as well. And they've been laid off as well as hotels have closed. But the truth is we've been, it's been very difficult to get discussions going with the hotels. We attempted here to get to engage our big chains, the Marriots and Hilton's. And in essence, because we are one union and we have similar identical issues in all of the cities we operate from the East Coast over to Hawaii and in Canada too. They basically wouldn't make a deal with us on a local union basis. And so we attempted and are attempting to meet with them on a national basis. And that so far hasn't gone anywhere. So I would, I think the industry is basically kind of in shell shock and in denial in certain amount. And perhaps naively think that they can just sit tight. Certainly the reopening is an important piece. You know, for example, I think it's nuts that the city still is advancing permits to build more hotels. That right, right now? Yeah. And okay, that's what they do, right? You know, developers do it in permits, but the argument to put a new hotel from January to now is completely changed. Obviously we shouldn't add new inventory when we will have a hard time filling up the hotels we got. And the truth is some hotels probably won't reopen. We don't know what their plans are. They don't know and aren't telling us. And so we've, you know, we're kind of in a limbo. But that doesn't mean that we should leave the question of reopening to the side. And so we are engaging in discussions and I'm encouraged that, you know, that we will be part of discussions in regard to that because I think it's very important reopening the hotels in this COVID environment means that we have to embrace the fact that our clientele and their needs have substantially changed. We're not going to get a lot of resort guests in this year. I just don't know how that can happen. What's a resort guest there? A resort guest is our usual guests. You know, someone who comes on vacation and wants my ties and tour groups and parasailing and all that stuff. And none of that stuff is available right now. And that's not what our current guests need. What our current guests are basically essential workers and people who are seeking lodging in the pandemic and they need lodging. Individuals need lodging if they're going to quarantine away from family to keep their families safe. And healthcare workers need lodging, you know, when they travel to assist other areas to try to contain outbreaks. And essential workers need lodging. And that's what we do. The problem is we're not set up to do, to serve that kind of guest right now. Instead, I think hotels are moving too late to, you know, to really address the needs of these new guests, which is primarily a place of security and safety that they can rest and recuperate or that's a great way to start the startup, to prepare for the startup. You know, repurpose the hotels to the business that is at hand, that is essential workers' business. I don't know how you feel about this, but potentially homeless business, all the people who need lodging. And that way you have some staff coming back to work it. You have the hotels are staying in operation, if you will, which is good for them. And that helps them ramp up, as in when the resort guests start coming back. Am I right? Well, yeah. And I think even the resort guests are going to have different needs now. And we're going to have different needs. Resort guests, you know, when they start coming back, when we start allowing them to come back. Right now, obviously, the state is doing everything they can to discourage, you know, tourists from arriving. And for obvious reasons that we all can share. So the question is going to be, you know, when are people going to be allowed to travel? And under what conditions should Hawaii let people in? And also, what conditions are other places going to insist on Hawaii being in order to receive our guests back home safely? It won't do us any good if our safety protocols are insufficient to, for example, to satisfy the needs of Japanese tourists, because obviously Japan could just quarantine them all coming home if they don't feel that we are a safe environment. So that, you know, we need to really concentrate on that our Hawaii and our industry need to be perceived as a place of safe refuge for guests, whether they be essential workers or when travelers go, you know, I can tell you, I'm a guy who traveled a lot up till the end of January. And I'm not unhappy that I'm not traveling that much now. But when I go to a hotel room, I'm not going to want to see a bedspread. I'm not going to want to see a duvet. I'm not going to want to see skirts on the bed. I'm not going to want to see roads hanging in the closet. I'm not going to want to see, you know, five pillows on the bed that I'm not sure when they were last washed. Those are things that I think any discerning traveler are going to be looking to see. And so, but so far, many of those measures haven't been taken even by the hotels that are operating. And there's only a few of our hotels that are operating, and we are attempting to address the safe operations in those places. Well, how do you do that? How do you address the safe operations in those places? I mean, now and as we go forward? Well, look, I mean, I think there's many aspects to that, and it affects the operations of the hotel, you know, from check in to check out and in between. But let's put it this way, I think there's certain things you can do now that need to be done in order to enhance safety. And the first thing in my view is, you know, you get stuff out of the room that can't be efficiently cleaned. And you don't put things in the room that you're not going to launder or throw out upon check out. Got it. And that's not what they do now, right? That's not what they do. And, and, you know, even long before this, you know, bedsprids are already perceived as, you know, a nest of germs. And now the germs could be a lot more dangerous. So, you know, we've got to be able to wash everything. And so, you know, those are just some of the things about the room cleaning. But the fact is, to have a safe hotel, you have to have both workers and guests safe. You know, there's no safe hotel if workers don't have the proper protective equipment. How do you do that? How do you make it safe for one of your members in a hotel that's still operating or in a startup economy later? What do you do for him? Is it masks? I mean, are you interested in testing? Tell me about how you would protect your workers. Well, first of all, you know, there's any number of guidelines out there, the CDC changes theirs all the time. It appears to be kind of politically influenced, you know, if the Trump administration didn't do a good job getting masks, the CDC says, well, you don't need those N95 masks after all. So we, when we, when we had to make a decision, meaning the union and our allied entities that we, we set up a quarantine station for the state. And we went, you know, we went as far as we could to practically to guard people up for cleaning. And so yes, I mean, the minimum is, is a mask and gloves, but we didn't stop there. You know, you also are well advised to wear safety goggles to keep, you know, safety glasses to keep things from splashing your eye. In the case of the quarantine station, which was intended and is housing homeless people in response to earlier question. We had plastic face masks and we have Tyvek suits as well. And so, so basically the worker can clean that room, a guest checkout room, you know, and, and can clean it with basically full covering and then take off that protective equipment when they're done cleaning the room and work with a uniform that doesn't have stuff on it. You know, but that's not what hotels are doing right now. We're gathering information. Most of the hotels currently operating are not under local fives contract. And I don't have any particular right to demand information from them. But we're gathering what we can. And hotels have not been consistent in providing masks or a sufficient number of masks. I don't think people have, you know, hotels haven't let the room sit for 24 hours in some cases they have, but I'm not sure that they're all doing that. You're supposed to do that so that the thing can settle. I think, you know, we are gathering information on this, but it's not easy because nobody is saying to us what they're doing exactly. And our information requests for our own employers are just sit there because nobody's looking to that somebody should do that if it's not going to be you because you don't represent those hotels or workers in those who could it be? Could it be the governor? Could it be the mayor? Could it be the hotel and watching, you know, industry association? You need to bring somebody in to make sure that they are providing information so you can structure a reopening with that information. Yeah, absolutely. There should be some intervention and some, as I said, our whole community depends on the perception of travelers that we're in place. So I don't think there's too much of this that we can do. The question is, are we doing too little? And we should address that. But absolutely, yes, there needs to be some understandings and guidelines about hotel operations as we resume. Absolutely, there has to be testing. The notion that we don't do public testing and that testing is something that we should reserve for special cases is not correct. And the fact is, healthcare workers that we also represent should be tested every week. So social hotel workers be tested. We're taking care of those people who are sharing the same building with everybody's germs. They're worried about us as well. I mean, healthcare workers are going, you know, they're worried about their own health as well as guests. And so we have to address this in a comprehensive way. Hawaii needs clear standards. We are doing our best to help develop them. And we are in discussion with some people that want to talk about this. And we do hope to attract the attention of somebody. Let me ask you one last question, Eric. It looks down the end of the tunnel here. A lot of people, I mean, obviously the hotel industry is the most important industry in the state. It's the engine of our economy. When you close it down, you're closing down our economy. It's that simple. When you're opening up, you're opening up our economy again. And so I really have one major overriding question here. We need to establish a reputation in the world about offering coronavirus-free tourism. We have to sell our cleanliness, if you will, our non-virus industry to the world. Then people will come back without fear. So clearly, we're going to have to fold that into the restart, our own special Hawaii restart. So my question to you is, what do you see at the end of the tunnel here? What do you see as the state of the industry, the differences in the industry, both on the hotel side, the management side, the capital side, and on the labor side when we get through this? I know it's an early question, but I wonder if you have thoughts about how this is going to evolve, what it's going to look like later? In terms of Hawaii, I think there were many legitimate questions before this started about how much is too much. I think there's opportunities here as well. This is a chance to reboot tourism and to find other things as well so our economy isn't so dependent on tourism. We're in the industry, but it's obvious to anyone looking at Hawaii today or Vegas or any place that is dependent on tourism that we need a broader base. This is an opportunity for us to do those things. This is an opportunity for us to really decide together how many tourists should be here and preserve our quality of life for our residents. This is an opportunity to do that as well. As you said, we have a good reputation as a healthy place and we should pound that in and make sure that we have our share of tourists. But to be a healthy place and to have confidence that we're receiving tourists from healthy places, people need to be tested. People need to be tested. That's just simple and yet the government's not doing it and it's crazy. Unless we can operate a good regimen of consistent testing so that people know if they're sick or not, which people don't know right now. 20% of COVID positive people have no symptoms, can't get a test under current rules. They can't know if they're sick, they're contagious. We have to have testing, testing, testing and we have to have it in our hotels, our healthcare industry in order for us to be safe. If we're not safe, how are we going to market ourselves as being safe? And we will need our guests as well. I can't imagine the state should just open its doors to everybody. How are we going to know if people are sick or not? And they need testing in those places too. So if tourism is going to resume, yes, we have a chance to reboot it. I would like to start re-envisioning what Hawaii looks like and should look like and can be. This is an opportunity for us to rethink things. But we're not going to get any business back, not safely unless there's widespread testing regimes, not just here, but in the places we're getting our tourists from. And so this is just an emerging issue. The testing issue is controversial in the sense that the federal government, the state government are all saying, we don't really need that much testing. But they're just wrong on that. And they're justifying the policy based on the lack of testing kits and the refusal to spend the money to do the testing. It is expensive. But unless we do it, we don't know who's sick. We can't contain contagions, blooms. We can't assure anybody that this is a safe place to come. And so they should get over this. The state and the federal government should get over this. Let's get real testing done on a mass basis and especially focused on our essential workers who need that right now in order to protect themselves and their families. Yeah. And with that, we can preserve our reputation as a healthy place. We can restart our tourism sector and we can therefore restart our economy. There's lots more to discuss, Eric. I hope we can circle back and cover it as this goes forward. That's Eric Gill. Unite here, local five. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks a lot for having me. Don't go hard.