 This is Sophie Bettman-Kersen and Bill Doyle on Vermont Issues, and our guest today, we're very lucky to have the executive director of the Vermont Granite Museum, Barry Scott McLaughlin, and we're very grateful that you are interested in Barry history and a big part of keeping the histories of central Vermont and Vermont in general going. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, it's a treat. So the Vermont Granite Museum of Barry is relatively new, and can you share with us the story of how and why it was created? Sure. So in the late 1990s, there was a community meeting at the Barry Opera House, and they were trying to figure out some different issues that came up during the meeting. There were several hundred people there, and one was an economic issue. There had been a lot of consolidation in the granite industry during the 1980s and 90s, and it left the community lacking a core for economic driver for the community. And so there are empty apartment buildings, and also the downtown area was pretty depressed. And so they're trying to figure out how do we solve that kind of problem. And there are some other problems that also came up during the meeting. One was the social issue. There was a lack of social cohesion recognized by those in attendance. They had grown up during the 1940s and 50s, many of them. They're like many community meetings, they're mostly seniors, and that social cohesion that they felt was due to the ethnic organizations that their parents and grandparents belonged to, and by default they belonged to. A lot of those organizations disappeared during the 1970s and early 80s, and they felt like the community just didn't have the same sort of glue that it once had in the past. And then another was an educational issue. A lot of those in attendance, they thought that many of the youth in Central Vermont didn't understand the importance of the granite industry to its development during the late 19th and early 20th century. And so out of that meeting came a committee that was formed, and they worked at trying to find not just one, but multiple solutions to those problems. And one of the solutions they came up with was creating a heritage center. And they thought the heritage center might address many of these issues. And as they were working at trying to find a space for the granite museum, there was also something also that took place in the community. And that was the Stone Arts program at Spalding High School was dropped in 1997. And so they thought the granite museum could serve as the incubator for the next generation of those working in the granite industry. And so with those four issues, they were hoping to find solutions in a home base. And they acquired the Jones Brothers granite plant right on the edge of the community. It was a perfect location because Jones Brothers for the better part of 50 years was the largest granite manufacturer in North America. They were innovative. They had the money to be innovative. And Jones Brothers created a lot of the both processes, as well as the standards of the institution that still plays out today. Jones Brothers was also a piece of property that wasn't on the core of the city. It had property that you could expand into. It has 12 and a half acres of land. And so it made sense to have a flexible space. All the other granite plants are kind of squished right up against one another within the city limits. And so Jones Brothers was what they thought to be the ideal location. It had a number of issues, like all the granite plants. They've been neglected in terms of repairs, but they were able to raise the funds through federal, state agencies as well as philanthropists and also the granite industry itself, raising about six and a half million dollars. Much of that effort was put into buying the property, stabilizing the structure, getting it up out of the flood plain, and then working on developing plans for its future. Unfortunately, 2008, as we know, was a stumbling block for many nonprofit organizations. And that was certainly true for the Granite Museum. And it kind of stalled. And it would be in 2014 that the board of directors would hire me to come in as a consultant to see just how we might be able to turn it into a museum. There was just a small space within the building which had been utilized from 2010 to 2014 as a museum within what we call the Stone Art School. And so with the volunteer's assistance, I helped to execute a plan. And then the board hired me in 2015 to see that fruition. So we've been working since January 2015 on creating a museum. I've got 35 to 45 volunteers that work annually with me to make that possible. And we've done quite a bit since then. We're right now at the stage. I call it my first draft of a museum. It's not finished in any way, but it's got a lot of great content. And when people visit, you can kind of see the vision of where we're headed with the museum. So that's where we are at this point. I have been absolutely thrilled with what you've done with the place. It's really friendly to children and accessible to actual current projects and educational. It's a really nice facility. Now, I really appreciate your efforts. Thank you. I have to say that I served with Senator Luzzi on the committee to form this museum. And I want to pay tribute to his leadership. Definitely. I'm sure you came across this name. Yes, many times. And he's been to the museum several times. And since his family also has a connection to the grant industry, his family's story will also be part of the archival content. And maybe someday it will appear on the displays itself. But he was instrumental in getting the funding from the state and also working with the grant industry to try to keep pushing the project forward. I mean, he's very proud of us. He's very, very proud. He should be proud. Yeah, it's a great thing you've done, I think, for the camaraderie of the industry in general. But now, why should people visit the grant museum and become a member? I didn't know you could become a member. Yeah, you can. Like most nonprofit organizations, membership is a big component of making sure that we've got kind of a steady stream of funding and support. It's not just financial support, but we're also looking for people to continue to advocate for the institution. And so coming to the museum, I think, is something that we've been working hard on over the last three years. We want to create an institution that is inviting for everyone. We've got a little bit of everything, I think, within the museum. And if we're missing a few pieces, they're definitely on the plans to be put in to the exhibit content. It's both a cultural heritage museum, but it's also a science museum. Science and technology is an important component to the growth of the grant industry. And just the idea of working with a material like granite, you've got to help people understand how it forms, why is it important? The geology of it. Exactly. And we've got granite here that is some of the best worldwide. And we have to explain why. Why is it that this is the place where we keep calling it the center of the granite world? And so our exhibit content is also not only static, like typical displays, but we also get interactive components. We want to make sure that we get everybody engaged in the content, whether you're a toddler, building things with foam blocks, and taking and looking at photographs that inspire you to build something. Or if you're interested in exploring the concept of sculpture, you can work at our clay stations. We've also got rigid foam and PVC. We don't expect people to grab a pneumatic hammer and start carving a piece of granite. But the idea is to get them interested in the concept of sculpture and representation of the world around them. We've also got the etching station. So you can take a piece of black granite, polish granite, and you can actually etch something into the surface of it. And so you've got to take away that you can have. And I still have my pieces of granite that I got at Rock of Ages when I was in middle school. When I went to the quarry in the Visor Center there, it's those types of things that are important to us as mementos. And so we want to make sure that people have that opportunity at the museum. And you did a discussion about the diamond store and the role of the store. Yep, and we've got, in terms of interactive stations, we want to make sure that people have the opportunity to touch things. So many museums, it's hands off, don't touch anything. We want to make sure that there are components all throughout the museum. And one is going over to the granite surface treatment table and feeling the surfaces of the granite that have been cut with a diamond saw or maybe have been hammered with a pneumatic chisel, a bush hammer, or a four point, and get a feel for how is it that you can create all these different surfaces and see the tools themselves right there next to the pieces. So eventually the hope is to have at each exhibit space kind of a broad spectrum of different experiences. One that is tactile. You can touch an object. One that's visual in terms of objects. You can see the things. You can see photographs. You can also read some of the text that's there. And they all kind of complement one another. And eventually we would like to have on each of the panels a QR code connecting to video content that someone can view on their smartphone. Today it's kind of an important resource that we have that allows us to expand our exhibits to not just being that one panel but being infinite in size. And we constantly can update that content online much easier than we could the static displays themselves far more costly. And you can explore even more content on your phone as you become more interested in a content area. That's our dream for the exhibits. Well people I speak to are amazed at your leadership. Talk about what you've been able to do as a leader. Sure. So at the Granite Museum this has been an exciting process for me although I've been involved in the construction of three other museums here in Vermont going all the way back from when I was an undergraduate at the University of Vermont. I helped to develop the Lake Champlain Maritime Museum, the Chimney Point State Historic Site and also the Mount Independence Visitor Center. But this is my first project where I'm the one in charge. And I've always been interested in getting the entire community engaged. This is a community museum so it makes sense to get the entire community engaged going from I've got eighth graders on through to seniors that are participating and helping to develop the museum, helping to provide direction for it. And we've also been working very closely with the state of Vermont for those that are currently unemployed that are on like reach up programs and others trying to get them back into the workforce. And so my job has been both as a teacher helping them to learn something new but also helping me to mold the museum into something that the community would enjoy to be a part of. And that's something that I'm pretty proud of that we've been able to do over the last three years creating these really strong partnerships with our local school systems, the Department of Labor and organizations like Washington County Mental Health to get everybody involved. And once they're involved and engaged then they're committed to it and they're gonna wanna see it completed. And so they're more willing to become members, to come to events, to share their experiences with friends, relatives, visitors to the region. And I'll see them coming to our door. Barry's very grateful for the leadership that you've given. I appreciate the opportunity to do something like this. It's been a great deal of fun. So and every, literally every week we see dramatic changes in some places within the museum. Whether it's in building collections, working on new displays or creating partnerships with our sculptors. And this year I think one of the greatest projects we've been able to share with the community is the work that Chris Miller is doing on making series or the Statue of Agriculture that's going on the Statehouse Dome. Yeah, how did you guys land that? Well, Chris has been working at the museum for a while as a volunteer. And over the last two winters in Lake Falls he's been working on projects. And when he started thinking about maybe getting this contract with the state he asked if it would be okay to do it at the museum. And I said, that'd be awesome. In part because all sculptors start with the same material. They all start with soft, valuable materials that includes things like clay and wood and soapstone. And then they work towards harder materials like limestone, marble and granite. And it's one of those processes that some sculptors continue to retain their skills at throughout their entire career. We've got actually some pieces at the granite museum that are made out of wood that were done by a Spanish sculptor, Felix Rubio. He was trained in Madrid and his experience initially was all in wood. And I have a beautiful photograph of him in his studio at school. And behind him are some pieces in wood that he had carved and then polychrome painted over the surface of. And then I've got clay and then I have marble and then I have granite that all was made by him while he spent a 40 year career here working in central Vermont. The other thing that I thought was really important is that Chris was able to do this in a public space. This is something that may last up to 160 years while it sits on top of the dome. Very few people are gonna get the opportunity to see it close up if it goes into a studio space. So having it at the granite museum was really important for both Chris and myself to have it there so people could actually touch it. They could smell the mahogany that it's being carved out of and they could see the progress. Every week we get the same people coming back to see how Chris is doing and nearing completion of this project. Well, since Senator Luzzi was from Barry and was so instrumental in the creation of the museum, do you think we can send a copy of this program to him? Oh, I bet he'd love that. So. And have you gotten the kids from Barry in to see the? We have. We've gotten school groups. Like U32? Yep, we've got U32. We just had 150 kids come to the museum. This week we have 130 coming from Rotland and a big component of their visit is to see Chris Miller and Ceres. What's some of the best questions from your visitors when they came to visit? So a lot of them are asking about the industry and its position today in the marketplace. Is it growing? Is it reducing in size? And they're keenly interested in understanding what's its role today both at a local level and a national level. And I even push them to help them understand an international level as well. Since approximately one third of what is quarried here in Vermont, whether it be from Bethel, Woodbury, or Berry quarries, it goes to places like the Middle East, India, and China. And it's turned into granite products that are used globally. Is Rock of Ages still traded in the New York Stock Exchange? It is not. It hasn't been since the 1990s. But Rock of Ages is the one that owns and operates the four quarries that are used for dimensional block granite today in the state of Vermont. And out of those four quarries comes probably more material than ever before on an annual basis, thanks to automation. And that's another thing that we kind of have to help people understand at debunk is that the granite industry is a dirty industry and a very dangerous industry. Yes, there's parts of it that are dirty and dangerous today, like any occupation, but it's far better and every year it tends to improve thanks to the use of automation. And safety procedures that are instituted, not just here in the state of Vermont, but nationwide by OSHA. Early in the program, we talked about the diamond saw. Why was the diamond saw so crucial to the development of the industry? Sure, I'd say not only the diamond saw, but also the wire saw. The two of those have sped up the ability to make dimensional block material and to make pieces that are very accurate in terms of their dimensions. They can also be an automated tool, which they did very early on, and also with the combination of those using also the laser, helping guiding where that block will be, has made it possible for them to create material at a rapid pace and get it to market so that people can turn into a finished product with relative ease. No, the stability of the diamond saw provided some stability to the market. So where did you guys get all your diamonds? That's another story. Today now it's mostly industrial diamonds, so it's not the high quality diamonds that are coming from places Africa and others, Madagascar. As a former carver, that was one of my favorite jokes. Diamonds are a girl's best friend because they do make it very accessible. I mean, you can carve anything with diamonds. And the hope is that the abuse that the sculptor experiences through the carving process is less than in the old days of using just hammer and chisel. And you can increase the speed of production, dropping the cost, making it more accessible to a wider audience. Still expensive, but there's more opportunity for people to get something that's a sculpted piece rather than simply sandblasted or just lettering only. Is there ever a railroad that went around and let people see the end of this great work? So there has been, since the 1890s, an effort to try to get people into the quarries. And it was first done by the trolley cars that traveled between Montpelier and Berry. And so on a Sunday afternoon, you could get a ticket and ride the trolley all the way up to the quarries. Wells-Lampson opened up their quarries. Their workmen would come in and give tours. And we've got a nice picture of a courting couple, as it says on the picture, that's in the quarries with a picnic blanket and they're eating their lunch. And so Wells-Lampson offered the opportunity for their workmen to make a little extra cash on Sundays, if they wished, and help both the community members in central Vermont, but also visitors to central Vermont, understand how is it that this rock is taken out of the ground and turned into a finished product. A lot of folks were coming to central Vermont during the late 19th century because they were trying to get out of major cities like Boston and New York and Albany, which were hot and nasty during the summers, and why not go to a nice, cool quarry temperature-wise, but also cool in terms of interesting here in the central Vermont, so. And that tradition has continued. Wells-Lampson did it for a very long time, Jones Brothers did it for a while, Rock of Ages has picked that mantle from the 1940s on and continues it to the very present. What parts of the world seem to be your best customers for granted? So it depends upon what you're talking about. If it's dimensional block material, then it's definitely the Middle East, India and China is buying up big chunks. And then if it's finished products, then it's still a very much a national market, but it's really reliant on populations on the East Coast and Midwest for the material that's being manufactured right here in central Vermont. Is that a loss that Rock of Ages no longer is traded publicly? Rock of Ages was a stock and no longer traded. That's no longer traded, that's correct. And is that a handicap? I don't know if it's a handicapped. Right now Rock of Ages, Swenson and Grand Industries of Vermont, they're all owned by one company, Polycore, out of Quebec City. Polycore is poised to become the supplier of dimensional block stone all throughout North America. They're strategically buying up high quality granite marble, limestone and other dimensional stone material within North America and also in Europe and try to provide for the marketplace here in North America. What countries throughout the world make that market? So like usual, it's Western nations. So we're looking at Europe and North America, but there's a growing interest in Asia as well and the Middle East for architectural elements as well as sculptural material. So I wanna ask what are some of the top challenges for the granite museum in your view and how can the public help overcome those challenges? Well, like all nonprofits, we all have the same challenge and that's funding. And so our funding comes through philanthropists. It also comes through donations directly from individuals that come through the door. We've got our admissions, but more importantly is spreading the word about the institution. And since we've only been opened on a regular basis for three years now, it's getting the word out to the public, letting them know through social media, which is kind of the vehicle of choice today and getting information out about the things that you like and enjoy and getting them to recognize the things that we can offer to both those living in central Vermont and also friends and tourists that are coming to visit central Vermont. Did Polycore put you on their map? So we've been working at trying to get the industry to help us put us on the map, so to speak, spreading that word to the memorial dealers that they sell to. We're also trying to get on the map in terms of what we have for destinations here in the state of Vermont for tourists. And that doesn't always have to come with a dollar sign. We don't always have to take and pay for that. The most important is probably word of mouth. And so we're gonna continue to improve on our social media and we're gonna try to get out there and reach out to more and more organizations and individuals that have some sort of connection to the granite industry, which is wide. And we can talk about Italian Americans. We can talk about Scandinavians. We can talk about all the cultural groups that came to work in the granite industry. We can talk about the science and technology piece. We can talk about how we can engage children and learning effectively. And so we're gonna keep building those relationships both regionally and hopefully get to the national level eventually. The hope is that we can reach the sort of same plateau that the Shelburne Museum and other institutions here in the state of Vermont have at the national and regional level. There should be no one in terms of tourists driving through central Vermont, not turning off all the highway and coming to visit the granite museum. They should all stop in. And it's not just the museum they should see. I think they could probably spend the entire day going to Hope Cemetery, the showcase for the granite industry since the 1890s. Going to Rock of Ages Visitor Center and visiting the quarries that Rock of Ages is currently operating in Berrytown. Also visiting the Millstone Hill Trails Association trails in Berrytown. It's got all of the old abandoned quarries and just an amazing industrial landscape which the natural environment is now taking over. And current carvers work. Exactly, with the Grand Lookout, with the sculpture park up there constantly expanding, it's just an amazing sight to see. Whether it's during the fall with the beautiful colors at the Grand Lookout or just to explore throughout the area. Tell us some of the quarries in Vermont where it is mined and with the different colors and so on. Sure. So we've got four dimensional block granite quarries that are opened. Woodberry is largely used for things like granite curbing, benches, architectural elements, non-sculptural elements. It's got a larger crystal size and in some cases maybe a little darker than Berry Gray, typical medium Berry Gray. And then you've got your Berry Gray which comes in three grades, light, medium and dark. And it's got a finer crystal structure and it works very, very well as a sculptural material thanks to those small crystals and they're also well aligned. So it makes it easier to work than other granites. And then we have Bethel White granite. And Bethel White is an excellent material for architectural elements and it has also been sculpted as well historically. Some of the first material that was sculpted in Bethel White, you can see on Union Station in Washington, D.C. Some beautiful sculptures on the top of Union Station and the pediment. Is there a rail line that would go toward Hardwick? There was historically. And today that rail line is now part of a rail trail. And so today everything is transported by truck from site to site, whether it's from quarry to shed to the marketplace. And the only time we'll see granite being hauled away by train today is if it's large blocks of waste granite called grout that is being taken from the quarries in Berry and this year it was being shipped to places like Oswego and other locations on the Great Lakes for breakwaters and jetties as it increased the water level in the Great Lakes region. And so dozens and dozens of gondola loads of that granite left this season. And where in Washington County you might find a mine in Granite? In Granite? In terms of? In some granite is mined in Washington County. Yes, and historically it was mined all along the eastern side of the state of Vermont. There are hundreds of small granite quarries along the eastern side. Now they've been consolidated down to these four quarries, some of the best material that we have here in the state. Thank you. You're welcome. It looks like our time's almost up, I'm sorry, but do you have any other pieces of information you wanna put out there to the public or things that you wanna discuss? Sure, so one of the things which I didn't get to is how can the public help us? Okay. And in addition to financial assistance, I rely heavily upon volunteers. And like I said, they range in age from eighth graders on up. And what we do is we utilize individual skills or interest in order to take and build out my staff. And also I'm looking for individuals that have knowledge about the granite industry in order to share that with me. This is not my necessarily background. I did a lot with Vermont history, but this was just a small little piece that I covered and my experience. And so those that have background knowledge, objects, images, sharing those with the granite museum will help us to flesh out our collections. And it doesn't mean I have to have those objects or pictures, but simply I can scan them, make photographs of them, incorporate them into my collections, exhibit content, presentation material, things of that nature. Where can citizens get copies of books or written material about the granite industry? So that's one thing that's greatly lacking. Most of the material is now out of print. And we're making some of that available on our website. And so you can see all the Berry Life magazines are there on our website, as well as other out of print materials that are out of copyright date as well, so pre-1926. Thanks. Well, thank you, Scott, so much for coming and joining us today to talk about the Berry Granite Museum. It's a huge asset to the community and to Vermont history as well. And we're very, very grateful to have you at the head of it. It's wonderful to see it blossoming. Thank you very much. Thank you, Scott. I appreciate it.