 I would like to call to order a meeting of the City of Santa Rosa Cultural Heritage Board and ask for a roll call, please. Let the record reflect that all board members are present except for board members viewser and debacle. Okay. Before we go any further, I just want to bring to everybody's attention that we have a new cultural heritage board member joining us, Mr. Kurt and Mr. Kurt. I would like to welcome you to the board. I have been with on the planning commission for a couple of years and really a great Santa Rosa asset and deep knowledge and wanted to welcome you to the board, back to the board and wanted to ask you to maybe introduce yourself and give you the floor. I would like to introduce myself as possible. I a number of years ago served 18 months on the cultural heritage board and liked it thoroughly. At that time I don't know if you still have it, I was the liaison from the cultural heritage board to the railroad square association there for the commercial part of railroad square and then subsequent to that I spent a little more than six years on the planning commission and enjoyed that experience very much as well and it seems that coming back here will be a really for me at least a good blend of positive experiences in trying to address matters before the city so very happy to be back. Thanks Kurt, thanks for joining us and looking forward to working with you again. Okay, next let's move to the approval of the minutes from our September 4th meeting. Board members, any revisions or comments to those? Okay, those will stand as printed. And next we'll move to item number three, statement of board business and board purpose. The cultural heritage board shall consider the following matters, standards, guidelines and criteria to the extent applicable in determining whether to grant or deny a permit, whether the proposed change is consistent or incompatible with the architectural period of the structure or preservation district structures, whether the colors, textures, materials, fenestration, decorative features and details proposed are consistent with the period and or are compatible with adjacent structures, whether the proposed change destroys or adversely effects an important architectural feature or features, the secretary of the interiors standards for rehabilitation and guidelines for rehabilitating the site. And we'll move to item number three, the public comment. This is a time for any member of the public wishes to speak on a matter of interest or related to the cultural heritage board to approach one of the lecterns at the top of the room. I don't have any comment cards, but you don't need to fill out a card if you want to speak. If you do, please state your name and you'll have three comments. And I'll open public comment. I'm not seeing... Oh. So tonight, Ms. Tumions, maybe you could help me out. It's not a public hearing or is it on the concept item tonight. So if the public has a comment, they would be invited to speak under public comment. That's right. For the item posted on the agenda, yes. Right, yes. So the comment would be for... At this point would be comments on items that are not on the agenda. So items that perhaps you would add to a future agenda item unless you're deciding to move forward with the item tonight. Well... The concept review is or isn't a public hearing. That's just... I wasn't under the impression that it was necessarily a public hearing, but it was a public hearing. So it's not a public hearing, but it was noticed and so the public can comment on the item once it... Once you bring it forward. Okay. So now isn't the time and I'll invite you to give comments after we've heard the staff presentation. Okay, thank you, sir. All right. Okay, any statements of one item tonight? Any abstentions? It better not be because we are just at a quorum right now. Okay, no abstentions. Okay, with that we move to item six. The concept design review for the landmark alteration permit 4135 West 6th Street. And Mr. Wixen. Yeah, thank you, chair. We'll give the staff presentation. Thank you, chair Edmondson. My name is Mike Wixen. I'm a director of the city and I'll just briefly go over this project. And with me at the... I want to say podium our table is Robin Stefale who is the project architect also and I'm sure she could speak to the project right after I complete my little short presentation. Okay. So this is a major landmark alteration permit because of a few different items. Basically it triggers a criteria for major landmark alteration permit and this is basically step one of that process which is to look at the concept design review. So just trying to track where we're at here. We're in the west end preservation or historic district area. So west of the freeway 101 site the general plan land use is primarily low density or low residential density in this area. And then the zoning is primarily R16 SAH. The... There are a few PDs in the area as well next door. But it's primarily a residential area with a few mixed commercial uses. This is just a map showing the contributing structures in the historic overlaid area. So you can get a quick glimpse of those structures in the neighborhood that have also historic value in our considered contributing structures. So that really is my presentation. The project itself, I didn't really even describe the project, but the project itself is really a remodel of an existing building. It's a single family residential use and the applicants are proposing to remodel the interior primarily so that we can see what's going on in the area. So I think that's one of the things that's really important in this project. And I think that's one of the things that really leads to some exterior changes that are before you today to consider and have input in for. So with that, I'll turn it over to Rob and she might have a few more things to add. Sure. It's on the corner of Madison and West 6th Street as seen right there on the corner of West 6th and Madison. The house is situated towards the front of the property and it's a fairly small lot. There is the house from Madison and West 6th Street as it exists today and a site plan showing the pattern of the sun and prevailing which are kind of important to the overall consideration of why we went with the addition and remodel the way that we went with the addition remodel. The current house, the main part of the house is a traditional center hallway design with the living quarters off of either side. The front of the house is where the steps are located. There is a living room and a bedroom and then coming back around to the rear of the house we have some more utility functions of the house. The two main bathrooms and a mud room and entry and then kitchen and two bedrooms. The applicants try to figure out how they could better utilize the space while keeping maximum use of the yard area. They have three young children who are here today and so a need for having some additional living space on the ground floor but also a couple of extra bedrooms. Right now they have three children and really have a three bedroom house. How could they reconfigure the house a four bedroom house and have maximum use of the yard where some of the leading program constraints that we were dealing with. The house is built it's a fairly old house it's classified as an Italianate vernacular it was built estimated at 1872 and it probably was moved somewhere between 1915 and 1935. The Italianate style let me just go back here if I can let's see. The Italianate style was very popular during that time period and essentially was a variety of different European styles that were adapted for whatever house the builder was using and what would typically happen back then was that the homeowner would use a standard plan and hire a builder to build a standard plan and make some minor variations depending on where they were and essentially what their budget was. Some of the features of Italianate style are low-pitched roof with overhanging eaves decorative brackets tall narrow windows elaborate frames around the doors and windows and different kinds of mill work and embellishments depending on again the budget and locale size of the house. Some of the constraints that we were dealing with on this particular house is that let's see here as you can see the house although very old and really unique hasn't really been the front of the house hasn't really been kept up probably because the original porch has been replaced with more of economical version of what was originally there it's hard to really know we weren't able to find any old photos of the house so we're just basing it off the fact that the lumber looks relatively new and couldn't possibly be from the time period of the house and also we know that in this neighborhood that was very common is that this neighborhood has been replaced with more of a high end area and so when things were replaced they weren't necessarily replaced in the most historically appropriate manner. So that's pretty much what we think happened to the porch although there's no evidence of existing porch structure but just guessing based on the fact that the porch that exists right now but one thing that was preserved on this house and is really quite lovely are the brackets that adorn the house around all four sides of the house and we felt that that was the strongest Italian feature of the house and strongest historical element and we really wanted to keep that unaltered so that was another constraint of the house that was preserved on this house. So the existing mill work at the bay window you can see around the window we believe that's original oh my gosh I don't think I want to chance that and so we also wanted to preserve that existing mill work and see where we could bring that home owner to. So that's the house that's strong on this house is its symmetry its overall squareness maybe and then we are also dealing with the constraints of reality and budget and so how do we design the program that the homeowners are looking for and how can we make use of that framing and that really high quality grade wood and lumber. Well at the same time there's some aspects of the foundation and basement that I'll talk about in a little bit that we need to be very careful about and so we ended up doing a structural analysis of the building early on to just sort of understand what we're dealing with because the house is so old we wanted to know what our options were and you know what status the actual foundation was in and what our opportunities were. So just to give you some other views of the house for reference there's the side of the house next to the neighbor and then the side off of Madison and then that's the rear backyard. And so what the program that we ended up coming up with the other thing that was desired was there aren't a lot of closets in this house as is typical of older structures and so they have this existing basement which currently you can only access through going outside and going down these very steep basement sort of you know hatch doors and so how could we potentially get an interior stairwell so that they could use the basement for additional storage needs. And because of the front to back internal hallway and there's also some really interesting features on the interior of the house such as molding and other historic elements that we wanted to try to preserve that really the only location for the stairs is where you see them we tried various options for moving the stairs in other locations this ended up being the most economical and reasonable solution because any other solution would require way too much altering of the existing house and basically be unfeasible from a budgetary perspective. So what you see here is the existing basement kept as it is potentially when we do further analysis we may be able to lower portions of the floor so that you get more head height and a little bit which shows you that but being able to get down there through a basement stair the stair will continue up to the top floor and the top floor will have the master bedroom and another bedroom and bathroom and a little adjunct sewing study area. So this is the proposed elevation and what we tried to do was keep the original cemetery of the roof intact and the cornices bracketing intact and the yard intact while still allowing for the most usable space in the attic and here's the section and so you can see the constraint on the stair and how we could do the stair in regards to the dormers was one of the major I think structural challenges of this project. What you see there is I call the dimension that shows the head clearance height to the existing roof which is not adequate and so we needed at that edge because that's where the stair would come up and there's no other way to do the stair so we needed to get the full 6 8 head clearance and so that needed something on that wall had to go up there and that kind of ended up informing the rest of how we worked around I mean it was kind of push and pull process to get this to work and dial it in but that was one of the leading constraints and when I looked at other dormer styles for this particular house it became very difficult to do any other dormer style because of the fact of where the stair comes up and some of the other structural engineering criteria that we received which said that we needed to keep the weight of the house as close to the original structure as possible so adding a lot of weight adding another story would have required full redo of the foundation system which wasn't practical so you know one of the challenges was that this is an Italian style home many of the Italian style homes that you see around Santa Rosa are multiple stories and they're very elaborate this is more of a vernacular version of Italianate and so how do we add on to and do in addition that allows for that ability to see the original structure and have the building evolve over time and still make sense for the historic Italianate style and so part of adding the ridge cresting which you see part of the desire for adding that ridge cresting and so on. So I think we should give it a little bit more height so that you get more of a separation of the dormer from the top height of the flat portion of the roof and we also I forgot to mention need to egress out of those windows so there are some constraints about the size of those windows and the openings and just being able to get out of those windows is an option as well. Let's see. So these are some of the Italianate style homes that you see around Santa Rosa. They tended to be very adorned, the ones that survived that we see today typically have a lot of detailing and elaborate cornices and mill work and what they refer to as the building outside of the building. The image on the corner there is from the Alfred Hitchcock movie which is a home here in McDonald's neighborhood that has the ridge cresting and the ridge cresting idea actually came from Paul who had this idea that he wanted to watch the fireworks off his roof. I think the fact that these homes did have that ridge cresting in a lot of cases and it helped with the overall feel of making the house seem a little bit more embellished than it was because it's pretty just unadorned right now with the exception of the bracketing. So how can we adorn this house in a way that is a little bit a little bit more jewelry if you will? This is the existing front porch and so what we'd like to do is keep the shed and the simpleness that you see here but just step up the adornment just a little bit by having some custom mill work done that's similar to what we would call the house. So we have this little house that ties in to that bay window and so the post and the railing and the I'm forgetting the name of those little guys now for some reason but the smaller railing brackets those would be also kind of perfect. The plan is that we want to replace one of the windows and in its location add a door to the exterior and add a rear porch and the windows that we're looking at right now are the Marvin signature collection because they have a variety of windows that and doors that kind of work that we're going to be able to do. We're going to have egress windows that will work for that complicated upstairs dormer. Those are going to need to be very, very special windows. So they have the ability to do that. They also have the ability to custom make historic windows. So right now the original windows, we don't think any of them are actually existing with the exception of the bay windows. We're going to be able to do that. So the windows that we're trying to pick are somewhere in between what probably were originally there and what is there right now. The rear part of the house was added on sometime in the last 15 years. So it's not really that historically accurate. So we're kind of trying to blend what we should have done from the very beginning with kind of what's happened here. So I was talking about the special tilt turn windows. And they have some nice nods to the historical cladding that you would see, the sub-sills. And then also they have not a divided light that from, you know, it'll it's not an actual divided light that you would see historically, but it appears that and it will work for the dormer window locations. So the current there is on the left and the propose is on the right. Let's see. I just want to make sure I hit all of the high points here. I guess just in closing, I would say that this was a very challenging project in that in order to get the program that was desired by the family, we had to kind of push the envelope and go for a very dramatic roof change, which, you know, is not something that I would do lightly on a historic building. So we took a lot of care in making sure that it fit with what's here and that it would work feasibility-wise from a structural and from a budget perspective. And, you know, some of the things that we were really worried about were just staying, keeping as much of the actual historic components that are really nice about the building. And, you know, we were really worried about the fact and trying to bring out more of that and kind of bring out more of the Italian style without overdoing it too much and ruining the vernacular look of the building. So we believe that this really meets the rehabilitation standards of the Secretary of the Interior for treatment of historic properties in that it is new construction. It's an addition. It's considered an addition, but it's not identical nor in extreme contrast to the historical structure, and that the proposed project is consistent with the original architectural style and details of the historical building, such as the roof pitch, the openings, the details, including channel siting with corner trim and porch details, and that it complements the existing millwork at the front bay window. It keeps with the original building. So we believe that the original building was important, and the dormers create usable space and egress from the top floor while preserving the original brackets, which are the defining element. And we believe that the drama of the Italian 8th style is, you know, being brought out here, and I guess in closing we just hope that you can support a bold move to try to make this project more accessible to the public and to the community. And I hope that you can understand this neighborhood and grow in the West End and be able to make this house their family home. Thank you. Thank you very much. Board members, any questions right now before I ask for any public statements? We can go ahead and hear from the public. Okay. We have three minutes to address the board. My name is Pat Bailey. I live in the West End. And I'm instead of calling them the applicants, I'll refer to them as Paul and Veronica. I'm a neighbor and friend and perhaps more importantly, my four-year-old is best friends with their four and a half-year-old. It's critical that we keep people like Paul and Veronica I could wax poetic for a long time about all the things they do. Veronica is a family doc who has frankly been there in the first weeks of the lives of many of the kids in our neighborhood. Paul has been involved in every birthday party, adventures, gathering, et cetera, that's occurred. He's currently a soccer coach that it's near as I can tell he's eager but only barely qualified to be based on his soccer experience. Most of us who live in the West End live in modest size houses. Mine is under 1200 square feet, theirs is maybe 100 square feet. More than that, I'm not sure the details. Their desires are modest. They want enough space so that when Paul's parents visit from Arizona, the three kids don't have to go into one bedroom. They would like to be able to host a dinner where people get to sit down rather than having the younger members of the family stand while they eat. They're asking for permission to put an amount of money into this house that frankly a realtor would probably tell them doesn't make any sense at all. They have options. They could move to a larger house in a neighborhood with fewer homeless people, better schools, less trash, et cetera. They want to live in our neighborhood and we want to keep them. I'm not an architect. I'm a mechanical engineer. I know something about building houses so I can't speak about architectural vernacular styles, original fabric, what's not, what is. I'd say the renderings are attractive to me. I think they'll add to the house. To the degree that you have comments, recommendations, et cetera, for their project, my request would be that you make those recommendations and comments, et cetera, actionable. It's going to be an expensive project, however you slice it, but iterations of review and redesign and going back and forth are emotionally difficult, financially difficult, et cetera. People give up and move somewhere else because, frankly, it's easier to buy a different four or five bedroom house rather than remodeling an existing one. I know that's certainly been true for our house. Thank you for your time and please help facilitate our dear friends, Paul and Veronica and their family staying in our neighborhood. Thank you, Mr. Bailey. Hi. My name is Deborah Crippen and I'm also in the West End. I was thinking today about all of our houses. All of our houses were built with what people could build at the time they could and then added on to and added on to and added on to. I look at my house and I think there was probably, I think it was originally a two-bedroom house with no bathroom and a teeny tiny kitchen area. Now it's three bedrooms, two baths, has a closed-in porch area. And if you look at the structure, you can tell it was done over time because people, their families grew or they got a little more money or they were able to make changes. And we have a problem in the West End in that a lot of our families do move out because they need a little bit bigger houses. And I personally want to keep our neighborhood as diverse as it is and keep it that way and not have it all become a bunch of us old farts without kids. It's enjoyable to have the kids in the neighborhood. It's great to have people who are active in the neighborhood like Veronica and Paul and the kids. And that's what we're striving for in the West End. And I think we need to have a little bit of leeway within expanding some of the houses that we have in the West End to accomplish that. So I would hope that you guys could see the future of the West End as well as the future of Santa Rosa with providing a little more housing. Thank you very much. I'm not seeing anybody else approach the podium. So I will bring it back up. That's why I pause on those. A little more than people think I might need to. Go ahead, sir. Mine was just so I'm Paul, one of the homeowners. And just one thing that we didn't call out there is that picture you had of the porch back there. That's actually only visible from within the yard or if you stand up right up against our driveway and kind of look over the fence. So that part of it in terms of like what's visible from the street that is essentially the edge of the deck would be visible. But that whole like French door thing that's not visible from the street unless you stand in one of those spots. So in case it makes a difference. Okay, great. Thank you. All right. Board members, any questions for the architect or for staff or if the applicants would be the best suited to answer, we could invite them to answer. But maybe I'll start with Board Member McHugh. Any questions at this time? I had one question about the design and you used some examples of McDonald Avenue and that sort of thing. How is this design consistent with the West End? Which part? The porch, the dormers? I mean, just the whole structure. So I think it's fairly consistent with the West End. There is a lot of mill work in the West End. If you look at the porches, there's a kind of a hodgepodge of different approaches to doing the porches. Some of them are more squares and there's lots of round milled porches with all manner of level of intricacies and details from very, very plain to fully elaborate. So in that, I mean, I think that the West End has so many different kinds of houses in it that if there's no one house that this matches entirely, but if you take individual components of it, there's individual components of it throughout the whole West End. With the exception of the ridge cresting, which I think is more McDonald mansion, but also throughout Santa Rosa, you'll see it. And what typically you'll see is just the remnants of some of it. A lot of it unfortunately gets just, you know, taken off as they re-roof and never put back on. So you can see the various elements of ridge cresting throughout downtown Santa Rosa, Petaluma, Hildberg, but not a lot of it's been well taken care of. Okay, thank you. Board Member Fennell, any questions? Questions? No questions? Board Member Veronica, any questions? A couple. I'll probably make a kind of a generalized comment trying to get myself back up to speed here in terms of cultural heritage board matters. First of all, did I, in my correct and understanding that this is a contributor home to the neighborhood historic nature of it? And maybe to the rest of the board and to Kristen A, my recollection is that we're, as a board, most concerned about the exterior views on all four sides, if they are street visible and so on, as opposed to, in essence, the interior driving what needs to be done on the exterior or on the roof in this case. Yeah, that's correct. If it was just a rear addition that wasn't readily visible from the street, the review would drop down to the zoning administrator. So what we're really trying to do is protect the very prominent views of the structure, the contributor. Then the next kind of, this probably speaks more to myself in terms of viewing and trying to understand these things, but again in historic neighborhoods, contributor homes, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that the when one purchases a home, they're notified that they are in a historical district through the title reports, is that it? And so that they then come under those limitations, what are restrictions or guidelines, whatever you want to call them, is that correct? I'm not sure because the city is not involved in that notification process, I don't know. Anyway, I'm just, I'm more curious than anything else. Pardon. Then getting to it, I guess the way I look at these matters, first of all, I think what is being proposed here is a good approach to a difficult situation in terms of the structure of the site and so on and so forth, but typically kind of then have to balance between a strict constructionist view and that of a broad construction, in other words, how far can you push the limits, I think is what you were saying. And saying that, I still have a question more for an understanding, the porch itself was either an add-on or a remodel to the building at some time in the past, and perhaps is not conforming to the original nature of the neighborhood or the home. The bay windows were? We believe those were original. Original, that's what I thought to. I think in terms of comments, then what I see at least looks good and that it is difficult, the dormers I think are a positive addition as well as a necessary one, as I understand it. Maybe it's not true Italianate, whatever, but if it assists the home owners in expanding space and it's still viewed as a positive contribution to the neighborhood, I would suggest, and I'm not certain in case there's the approach on these here, but I would suggest that you keep moving forward with it. Great. Just have a question or two. You talked about the crest having been drawn in inspiration from downtown and from McDonald's neighborhood. Roughly, where would the nearest example that you have in mind as you answer that question, where would you have found that, how close to the project site? Sure. There's some evidence that there was some cresting along Wilson Street, which is roughly about three blocks on some of the older structures on Wilson Street. Within the West End, there were structures that probably had some cresting on them at some point. Maybe just one or two elements you can still see visible today. There are also on 4th Street. There's a couple of homes that have some of the original cresting still in place. They probably had more in the past, but have been remodeled and lots of it removed, I'm assuming. Then about a mile into McDonald's neighborhood, you'll see it. There is an all-on-cherry neighborhood too, which is the adjacent historic neighborhood there some. Would you find examples of structures that are similarly sized and similar heights having cresting that would resemble this in terms of how extensively you would propose to use it and where it's located? Yeah, that was one of the challenges was to try to find more of a vernacular house that had cresting on it. We did find one on 4th Street, and I believe it was included in the packet, the original packet. Right now, the only cresting that remains on that house, it's roughly the same size, is that it had it on the front entryway, and you can see it visible there. So, number three. Yeah, okay. And I wanted to ask a question about the proposed window there and the trim around it. I'm trying to, let's point to a good visual of it on the plant set. In the dormer or the rear? The dormer. The dormer, okay. You said there were constraints having to do with, I guess, ingress or egress, actually. Yeah. Let's hope not ingress to the upper window. The trim is, what I would characterize as narrow, fairly narrow, is that, by choice, is that a constraint? How much latitude do you have with the width of the sort of frames or the trim around those? Yeah. Yeah, and I kind of alluded to the challenge. So, you'll see the bay window, which are the only windows that we think were original windows, but they could have also been replaced. They're not terribly obvious what happened there, but they are, that configuration looks like original configuration and windows, and you can see how narrow the reveal is. So, the Marvin Ultra Series can come in either a narrow profile or a larger profile, and we can do either of those. The functionality of the egress is more about the opening space, and so the window, the profile of the window could be made wider without infringing on the opening ability of the window. But because there is a hodgepodge of different windows on this building to try to blend and not make it look too incongruent, I picked that one. I think I actually have, yeah. So, you can see that these are a little bit wider here, but the tilt turn window has a more narrow profile. And yeah, it's a challenge, because the windows in the back, we need the windows in the dormer to match the new door, French door going to the porch, but the windows in the back addition were done 15 years, 10 years ago, and aren't historic. So, we can come back with more details specifically about the windows and how we're finding the right window. I think that I didn't exhaust my opportunities at this point, because I wasn't sure what suggestions I was going to get back from you, but that's certainly something we will pay very special attention to, and it's critical that we get right, or at least as right as we can for this project. Great. Thank you. Very good detailed answer. Appreciate it. I don't have any other questions. Maybe I can just circle back around for comments. Board Member McHugh, any comments? No comments. Board Member Faddle. I like this project. I like that I like what you're doing. I like that you're taking the Italian 8 style and bringing it back into the house. And we see this a lot in the different historic neighborhoods where the 60s happened and then the 70s happened and the houses changed and they didn't change good. And I think what you're doing is I really like it. I think that I appreciate so much that you're trying to put your wood windows in and you're using the existing structure to help guide you as you make the additions, and that's all we can ask for. And so I really support this project. And Board Member Gronick, any final additional comments? No further comments. Okay. I agree. I like this a lot. It's very nice. I think Mr. Bailey, I think Abel, representative of your project as well as your professional. And I couldn't agree more about the character. We're talking about architectural character when we assess a project, but when we're, you know, part of the descriptions of the historic neighborhoods has to do with the living patterns that they allowed. And it really always has been the case that we the neighborhoods like the West End neighborhood and neighborhoods that have that longevity are welcoming to families and have people who can live their entire lives in one house if they so choose. And it's important to make sure that we don't get lost too much about what makes a neighborhood have character and what a neighborhood character really constitutes. So I think that it was appropriate for everybody to bring up those comments and I agree. This window and the millwork around it are really the sort of touchstones of this property. And it's really beautiful what's there. And I think that you made some smart decisions with pegging a lot of the other choices off of that. I'm not particularly concerned with any of the elements that aren't visible from the street. I think that falls into, you know, what our proper purview is and isn't. I was just struck a little with the narrowness of the tram around the front facing window there, the windows on the front top there. I don't know what it would take. I didn't have a counterfactual to look at. But maybe if the option could be presented, I'm not even ready to say that that's a critical thing for me. But to the extent it doesn't create too big a headache, I'd be curious to see what that would look like. And then the crest doesn't strike me as an element that works for the historic character of the neighborhood. I would still be in support of the project even if it included that element. But it's just a thought that I feel it would be more consistent if it had a little bit of a different adornment or less, maybe not the ridge crest there at the top. Also, we are a six-member board right now and a seven-member board generally, and there's going to be an appointment at some point for that vacancy. And I would encourage you certainly to affirmatively contact the members who are not at this meeting. And just ask them if they have any questions in preparation for if this appears on an agenda in the future. Make yourself available to them to avoid them needing you to come back again to meet concerns that they might have. But overall, I think it definitely is an improvement. I like the work on the porch. I like the porch railing. I think that's a real nice touch. And considering all the constraints, a lot of appropriate choices. I love the slide AA, the signs and the artwork on the house. That's not part of our purview either, but it's all very nice. So yeah, do be sure to follow up with the board members who aren't here and consider their comments. But I think that it's a nice package and very thorough and appreciate all of your efforts and hope to see you back here. And that, if there's no further comment, we'll conclude this item. Okay. We're going to move on. And I'll just give everybody a minute to get gathered before we do that. All right. So let's move on to item number seven, which is board member reports now on the iPad version of the agenda. This wasn't included. And I'm curious to hear what the other board members think about it. But it's on the paper agenda, and it was, excuse me, indicated to me by email earlier in the week that we could take this up today. But we are in need of a vice chair. Now, of course, there's just four of us here today. I don't know what vote is necessary to carry the appointment of a vice chair, but I expect it would be a majority. And I think that probably a majority of three would constitute a valid appointment. But I have not heard from any member of the board that they are interested in serving as vice chair. I've also not solicited that kind of answer from people. So I think that it might make more sense to continue this to the next meeting. And that way in the interim, everybody can think about it. And then if we happen to have more board members the next time, so much the better, so more people could weigh in on the decision. Anybody who has a thought, just please feel free to share it. I'm supportive of that. Continue we get. Is there any disagreement? Okay, board member final. Okay, so we'll put that on the next agenda, please. Same position is fine. And then we will go ahead, excuse me, and reach out to the board member muser and board member debaker and let them know to expect that on the next agenda. Board member reports is item number seven on the agenda. Board members anything to report besides Mr. Groninger joining us? Any reports? And then we move to item eight department reports. Any department reports? No department reports other than after today, Susie Murray will take over as CHB liaison going forward. And it's been a pleasure working to serve the Cultural Heritage Board for as long as I did. So thank you. Thank you very much. And we will be sad to see you go or be here less often. I'm sure sometimes you'll be back. But thank you very much for all of your hard work and all of your help and all the diligence and help that you brought to the applicants. Really, I'm always so impressed with our planning staff and I love Susie. And so it's nice that I'll get to see her again. But anyway, I'm sure I'm speaking for everybody in recognizing your hard work and your talent. And thank you very much personally. Boy, that is the last item on the agenda. So with that, we are going to adjourn. And there is a joint meeting set for now five o'clock. The 4.30 meeting has been rescheduled to five for quorum purposes. So the Design Review Board and Cultural Heritage Board will convene a joint meeting at five o'clock.