 This is the Tan Talk Radio Network. Pretty Underground with Alex Snicker and Adrian Wiley on the 1787 Radio Network. Welcome back. Hour number two to Liberty Underground on the 1787 Radio Network. If you'd like to call the program, the numbers are 727-4413,000 or 866-826-1340. You can also listen live at 1787network.com. Bob, joining us now, Brandon from the Desk of Bryan with what we missed in the news this week. Brandon, welcome. How you doing? Good. You know, just fighting tyranny in every direction this week. Boycott on Wednesday. And I think we reported it early on, also protesting people in conversation about what SOPA really is and how easy it would be to shut down websites and having the government so intricately involved with the internet. I thought it really, really went well this week and I don't know what your thoughts are. Oh, absolutely. In fact, yeah, we didn't touch on that. We talked about some of the other sites that protested SOPA, but Wikipedia actually went dark for an entire day over this, which I thought was phenomenal. And Wikipedia, I've been an editor of Wikipedia for a long time and they are very stringent about copyright to begin with. If you're going to post an image or anything like that on Wikipedia, it truly has to be vetted and you have to show that you have copyright to that material. So for them to go dark in support of that was a really big move. But, Brandondeskofbryan.com is one of those sites that would be, I'm sure, on a short list of sites that would be targeted by the Justice Department should SOPA pass. Yeah, we'd probably be pretty quick just because it doesn't take any more than an accusation for them to be able to pull you from Google search engines and shut down your advertising funding and that type of thing. So it would be pretty quick to really almost decimate a website of that magnitude. And the revenue, and I wrote about this, is the revenue through Google ads and things like that when you don't have big sponsors, it's not going to pay for an attorney or any mechanism to fight the legal system they would take to get your websites back up and running. While our intent is not to violate copyright laws and we're trying to really, really be even more assertive like you said with Wikipedia 2012, there's always a chance for a mistake. And that's where the law is written for really no gray area. And it would be very difficult to defend yourself. Yeah, and it would be difficult to defend yourself under fair use, which new sites generally do. But even under those circumstances, all they need to find is one image or one link somewhere to something that is questionable copyright. And you're done. Well, I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist with this, but the movie industry sends out tons and tons of promotional imagery and material all the time. They do not require us to constantly refer back to them. Everybody knows what comes from Paramount. Everybody knows what comes from Universal, that kind of thing. However, one quick phone call from somebody who's angry about the content on a website, suddenly they realize that you have a poster that's not footnoted properly. Something like that. Boom, it would fall into the criteria that the way the soap is written. So I would hardly be alone with the problem. And I'm actually surprised there were not more pop culture and news websites that kind of boycotted along with us. Yeah, it seems like if you did have an image on your site that was uncopyrighted, they could just claim it was copyrighted by someone else or they could lay a copyright on it themselves and then shut your website down even though you had like something that was in the free public domain. And most people have been very civil in doing this, and we went through a very difficult time at the end of 2011 with this, and the concern that arose from that dealing was that you could falsely claim you own copyright, and therefore I can grant Adrian permission to use it. It turns out that I didn't have copyright originally, so now Adrian would be in a bit of a mess because the original author comes back at him with maybe a lawsuit or in this case with the SOPA guidelines shutting him down completely. Right, and there's no due process, and the burden of proof is on the accused, not on the originator. You're guilty first, you're innocent last, and it is written very much in that way. And like I said originally, Christopher Dodd's name on this I think really helped reach out to general public from my experience because people know who Christopher Dodd is. You don't have to be a liberty-minded individual to dislike Dodd's agendas for America and its future. General public, even though Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh listener, has kind of a disdain for Christopher Dodd. So there really should be an appeal to really squash this bill and put this all behind us. Yeah, the only thing that would be worse was if Barney Frank was on there too. But they're running pro SOPA ads on MSNBC. Oh no, you're kidding. Yeah, I got it sent to me yesterday. I'm going to try to get to that today and screen it myself. But it's kind of a pro SOPA little 30-second ad, and I was just shocked that a news agency would really want to be that vulnerable, but the type, the GE, and the type, you know, it doesn't really surprise you if you know the research and the handiwork. Oh yeah, yeah. You know, all the major media outlets are owned by these global conglomerates that have a vested interest in promoting things like SOPA. Well, you know, there's not going to be, there's not been any reports that, you know, our fever and response over Iran is still in high gear. We have two aircraft carriers now that are strategically positioned over there with 15,000 troops in Kuwait because of the pressures that Iran. And you know, I think in the Christian community, there really wasn't enough talk given to Ron Paul getting booed over the Golden Rule reference. And we did a piece on that as well. And I think those two things, I think, really just were completely overshadowed by Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney debates within the right wing and the attacks from the left and that kind of thing. So, check those out on Desk and Brian. And as always, I know Adrian, you always want to go to a weird news story. Oh, well, stand by this. This week, there's something else that caught my interest. But, yeah, listeners, I want to just say, that's one thing you may have missed in the news this week is that we are building up troops in Kuwait as we speak. And if you go to deskabryan.com, you can read all about it. So, the war drums for Iran continue. But where I want to talk to you first, Brandon, is this editorial piece you have on here about DHS and the Department of Education Partnership. Can you touch on that a little bit? Well, you know, I think there's a great article there written by Judy Aaron, she's one of our contributors. And I think where I think people tend to don't understand about, you know, the Obama administration, the Bush administration, is they're very protective of, they intermingle their powers. And, you know, we have someone like Ron Paul. It's like, I'm going to get rid of these departments. This is why it is so extreme to them because they will intermingle, you know, the concepts of terrorism, protecting our students, what will be taught in schools. And this is a great article that kind of helps dive into how they will strategically align these departments together for really a more authoritative state power. And I think it's a very interesting article, and I was more than happy to have a great writer like her to contribute it. Yeah, and the program is called Countering Violent Extremists where the Department of Homeland Security is going to go into public schools and teach children how to identify potentially terrorist behaviors. And as we've talked about on this show in the past, you know, things like having more than seven days worth of stored food or paying with cash, potential terrorist activities. Kids, turn in your parents. But, okay, Brandon, let's hit a weird news one real quick. Looks like some good ones this week. He's got a drunk driver and he pulls off the road. And there's other people that know he's drunk and they followed him into the parking lot. When they get back into his car, he gets belligerent because they have a bystander who hog-ties the man. And that's the language that was using the arrest record, it was that he was physically hog-tied. That's awesome. I think it's absolutely hysterical to put, you know, how does that feel to go downtown? You've got your mug shot. What are you in for, man? It's hog-tied for drunk driving, bro. That's fantastic. It's in New Mexico, so you picture a guy riding up on the horse and lassoing him, you know? Yeah, I'm sure it was not to that extreme, but that is exactly how it was worded all the way through the record. It was fantastic. As someone who's from New Mexico born and raised, yeah, no, Adrian. But, yeah, DUI is a big problem in New Mexico. It used to have one of the highest rates overall out of the country and I think it still has the highest rate per capita. Wow. Well, Brandon, as always, thanks for what we missed in the news. And folks, you can go to deskofbryan.com. Great website. Make it part of your daily news gathering sites. And, Brandon, we will talk to you again next week, sir. All right. Thank you, guys. Have a good weekend. Take care, brother. All right, we're going to take a quick break when we get back. We'll have more interesting stuff and hopefully we'll get into the conversation about what should be done with intellectual property should it exist. We'll find out when we get back. You're listening to Liberty Underground on the 1787 Radio Network. This is the Tantoc Radio Network. Give your website a facelift. Visit OYOVA.com today. Are you looking for a copier, printer, fax machine scanner or multifunctional device? Or do you need a company that will come in and service your existing fleet? Well, LightSource Imaging Solution is that company for you. LightSource offers best-in-class products and local service to help enhance productivity and efficiency for every job that needs to be done in the office. We understand our clients' needs and apply the appropriate hardware, software, and technology to create a customized solution right for you. If you like the schedule and appointment, dial 727-729-2971. That's 727-729-2971. 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If you missed something, plus a lot of great articles, we've got 12 different writers and contributors to that site, so there's always a lot of good Liberty-minded information out there. One of the things I wanted to let everyone know about is we've got a couple of really big events the Libertarian Party of Florida does coming up real soon here. First and foremost is the 2012 Libertarian Party of Florida State Convention, which is going to be February 10th through 12th at the Embassy Suites Airport in Orlando, Florida. And that's our annual convention, our annual business meeting. We're going to be electing some members of our executive committee. But really, the highlight of that weekend is going to be the largest and most comprehensive Libertarian Party presidential debate held yet. And the candidates that have confirmed so far are Leroy Saunders of Georgia, RJ Harris of Oklahoma, Roger Gary of Texas, Governor Gary Johnson of New Mexico, Carl Person of New York, Bill Still of Virginia, and Lee Wrights of Texas. Folks, this is going to be a great debate. We're doing this right. We're doing this professionally. We're doing this thing nationally televised. You don't want to miss it. Again, that is February 10th through 12th in Orlando at the Embassy Suites Airport location. And come on out. It's going to be a great event. If you're a Libertarian and you're interested in being a delegate to the convention, please get in touch with Greg Lennon, the Libertarian Party of Florida Secretary. And there's a form you can fill out in advance. That's available at 1787network.com forward slash LPF. Again, 1787network.com forward slash LPF. You can also go to the LPF website at LPF.org. There's information there. Just click on the link for the 2012 State Convention. Another thing I wanted to announce is next Friday, we will have a Libertarian presidential candidate, Bill Still, in studio. And also we'll be doing an event. The event will be at 6 o'clock p.m. in Clearwater. Bill will be giving a presentation at the Datex Center in Clearwater. And afterwards, we'll be heading over to Quaker Steak and Louve at about 7 o'clock for a meet and greet and hang out, have some wings, have some beers or cocktails, and just have a good time. And it's your opportunity to, you know, question one-on-one, one of the Libertarian presidential candidates. And as you know, we've had Bill Still on the program in the past. He's the author of The Secret of Oz. And the Money Masters, is that correct, Lauren? The Money Masters is a... Okay. Yes. Yeah, well, I'm familiar with The Secret of Oz. Okay. But yeah, great author and documentary director. So come on out to that. That is next Friday, the 27th, at 6 o'clock at the Datex Business Center on 49th Street in Clearwater. We'll have more information on that on the 1787 Network website. Now, I want to just take a minute and reach out to Ron Paul supporters. Quite frankly, let me tell you where I stand on Ron Paul. I think we've discussed this on the past. I agree with the majority of Ron Paul's positions. I think he's a great guy. I think he's a great voice for liberty. I think he made a huge strategic error by trying to run in the Republican Party. You know, there's no way this guy is going to be allowed the Republican nomination. So should that happen? Should Ron Paul not get the nomination? And, you know, he said repeatedly that he has no intention of running third party. In fact, it's too late for him to run as a libertarian at this point. I want to reach out to you guys, and I want to say, you know, I highly respect everything you're doing for the Ron Paul campaign, but should he not get the nomination, you absolutely need to support the libertarian presidential candidate. You know, we've got, for example, we've got Gary Johnson right now who in a national poll is at 9% right now in a three-way race between Mitt Romney, who probably will be the Republican nominee, Barack Obama, and Gary Johnson. Gary Johnson right now today, even with, you know, the Ron Paul supporters still out there, is at 9%. So if you guys, if your guy doesn't make it in the Republican Party, if you come over, we've got a shot at this thing. We have a chance to really make a difference this time around. We've got a candidate that is right now polling at 9% nationally. That's a big deal, folks, and with your help, if you put the same kind of enthusiasm and the same type of effort behind the libertarian presidential candidate, we could win this thing in a three-way race in the general election. So I just want you to think about that. So if things don't work out, remember, Ron Paul supporters, you have a home in the libertarian party. So... All right, so I just wanted to get that little bit of housekeeping out there. And we're going to go to break right now, and when we get back, we're going to talk with... We have that confirmed? Yes, we do. Okay, and we're going to talk with Stefan Kinsala. Correct. Okay, and he's going to talk to us about the property. You're listening to Liberty Underground, we'll be right back. This is the Tan Talk Radio Network. Are you looking for a copier, printer, fax machine scanner, or multifunctional device? Or do you need a company that will come in and service your existing fleet? Well, Light Source Imaging Solutions is that company for you. Light Source offers best-in-class products and local service to help enhance productivity for every job that needs to be done in the office. We understand our clients' needs and apply the appropriate hardware, software, and technology to create a customized solution right for you. If you like the schedule and appointment, dial 727-729-2971. 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For more information on your sponsorship opportunities, that's 1-800-575-1787 to get your ad running today. This is Alex. Let me tell you about a new sponsor that we have around PaulProducts.com. If you're looking for bumper stickers, t-shirts, card decals, wristbands, magnets, license plates, banners, signs, buttons, whatever, big custom kits, bulk sales, if you're out there trying to restore the Republic and help this guy win the election, this is the one place that you can go to get phenomenal product at bottom basement prices. This is a local guy here in the Florida area that is a big supporter of Ron Paul that put this website together for you to be able to get the things out. So go to ronpaulproducts.com and get your materials there. Again, that's ronpaulproducts.com. Hey, Ed, have you checked out the new 1787network.com website? Yes, I have. Looks good, doesn't it? It's great. Oh, man, thanks. Hey, I'll tell you why. It's because we called Oyova to rebuild it for us. It was the best decision that we could have made. Oyova, spelled O-Y-O-V-A, did it in no time flat. They worked with us using a real-time online interface where we could watch each step of the redesign and collaborate to ensure a seamless transition. From start to finish, it was only three days. Three days? Compare that to the weeks many web design companies take. They improved our logos and gave our website the professional touch it was lacking. Oyova can do the same for you. Visit O-Y-O-V-A.com to create your new website or to supercharge your existing website. That's O-Y-O-V-A.com. This is Adrian Wiley, Chairman of the Libertarian Party of Florida. The LPF has a renewed mission and we have the right plan to restore individual liberty and economic freedom in Florida. The time is right to end the two-party stranglehold on the people. We're doing our part. Now it's time for you to do yours. We need candidates. We need volunteer workers. We need money. We need you and we need you now. Join the Libertarian Party of Florida today by visiting LPF.org. That's LPF.org. Only with your support can we, the people, restore our constitutional republic. Need more than smoke signals? Sign up for the Liberty Underground Weekly Newsletter at 1787network.com. Formative radio for the Sunshine State. Sitting and staring out of the hotel window Welcome back to Liberty Underground on the 1787 Radio Network. Alright, if you recall a couple weeks ago, Lorring and I were having a discussion about intellectual property rights. And we went back and forth for a while and Lorring said, you know what, I'm going to bring in an expert to back my side of the argument. Lorring is of the opinion that there should be no intellectual property rights. Sure. I'm kind of on the fence. I see validity on both sides. So we wanted to bring in intellectual property attorney, Stefan Kinsella. Stefan, welcome to the program. Thank you very much. Glad to be here. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do. Kind of set up the background of how you came to your position on this. Yeah, what I do, I'm an attorney. I'm a patent lawyer, a registered patent lawyer and I've also done copyright law and other types of IP law over the years. I've been practicing for about 18, 19 years now since 1992 or so. I've been a libertarian for quite a long time and initially I was pro-IP because I assumed that that was part of the system of property rights in the western capitalist system and because I had an on-rand, et cetera, and she was strongly in favor of patent and copyright. But I always had trouble with her argument because it seemed sort of arbitrary to have a 17-year term for patents and an ex-year term for copyright and to let the first guy get it and all this and so I thought there might be a better argument for it and I kept thinking about it in law school and when I started practicing patent law I started thinking about it more and finally came to the discovery that upon learning more Austrian economics more about property rights the whole thing is just a big mistake and the reason it's difficult to justify it is that it is actually not compatible with property rights. You can justify it. It's basically the relics of the ancient system of mercantilism where the government would grant monopolies, monopoly privileges, and also have different forms of thought control and censorship to prevent the spread of ideas that they don't want spread and that's what we have now at the relics of the system and of course the people that benefit from it are going to push hard for it but basically they're the recipients of monopoly privileges that undercut the property rights of other people in the economy. Now let me ask you this because in my mind I equate intellectual property to tangible property. If I create something, if I take raw materials and turn them into a product, I have the right to sell that product. How does intellectual property differ from tangible property? And this is something I struggle with too and I finally realized that there was another mistake and that is the sort of imprecise usage of just what you said about if you produce something or create it and you own it but the problem is that's actually not true. You're not the owner of the product because you created it. In fact you mentioned the raw materials, right? So in order to produce something just means to transform raw materials but you have to already own those raw materials. So you own the raw materials because you found them or because you homesteaded them or appropriated them from the state of nature let's say or because you purchased them from someone else but then you used your labor your intellectual creativity to transform it into a more valuable shape or more valuable configuration. Now you own that thing that's produced because you already owned what went into it so the act of creation doesn't actually give rise to more property rights it just makes your existing property more valuable. So if you realize that creation is not a source of property rights then you never really get to that analogy by saying well if you own things that you produced because you create them then you own valuable ideas because you create them. So actually if you just realize that creation is not a source of property rights only contract and discovery basically appropriation of unowned things is a source of property rights. And furthermore if you create an idea it's always based in part on the ideas of others no one starts in a vacuum everyone stands on the shoulders of others almost all improvements are incremental Shakespeare's plays were rehashing a lot of existing plots and ideas of time and there's nothing wrong with that. So no one is going to create hundreds that are responsible for the ideas that they come up with in the first place. Well I have a problem with that. First of all it seems to me when you argued that and rightfully so that when I take raw material I chop down a tree on my property or I purchase lumber and then transform that into a wooden chair that I want to sell you're right I just have transformed that and added value to it. However intellectual property is kind of you take away all of the raw material aspects because that is something that you created from and granted it's based on if we didn't have the English language in a novel granted there are things that is built upon but that thing itself is completely unique and there were no other raw materials involved other than things that came from the individual who created it how do you respond to that? Well I think you're partly right and I'm not denigrating the importance of ideas but I don't know if you're familiar with or appreciate or value the Austrian looking things but so Mies' structure of human action has helped me to see this more clearly and this is not that esoteric or complicated but basically he says what is human action? It's an attempt in a world of scarcity which is what we live in to try to change the state of affairs in the future for what they otherwise would be every action is an attempt to get something done it's seeking some goal that you find desirable or more satisfactory and the way you do that is use scarce means which is your body and other things in the world like a shovel or tools, capital goods to accomplish the end but what you decide to pursue and what means you select to achieve your ends is guided by your knowledge so the knowledge in your head helps to guide your action but your action is employing scarce means now these means are scarce and that means we need property rights because otherwise people would only be able to have to fight over them to be able to use them we all want to live in civilized society and be able to use things productively and peacefully so we allocate owners to these things that otherwise only one person could use at a time and otherwise people would have to fight over but ideas can be used by any number of people at the same time so if you think of an analogy two people want to make a sword well they can both have their own metal and hammer it into a sword and both using the same idea that hey if I hammer this metal into a sharp object it can be useful to me so if I see you making a sword and I learn that that's possible I don't take anything from you by emulating or copying you same thing if you're the first person to build a house made out of log logs a log cabin when people have been living in caves before everyone gets the idea hey that's a great idea or using fire to cook food ideas spread and the enrich human society and actually if capitalist or as property rights advocates and pre-market tiers we should be in favor of people learning and competing with each other and basically all that copyright and patent do is stop people from competing in fact the proponents of copyright and patent admit this they say that we can't have unbridled competition you know it can't be too easy to compete with someone if if I see you making a smart phone with a touchscreen you can't make you can't make the same thing because then it's just not fair well of course that's fair that's the pre-market but I would argue that eliminating all intellectual property would actually ensure monopolies in a lot of cases take this example I write a novel and I'm just one guy who sits at my computer in my kitchen and writes this unique you know work of fiction never been created before it's a novel it's original and it's awesome novel by Adrian Wiley yeah and if you're waiting for me to write a novel don't hold your breath but just for this analogy so I take that novel and of course I want to be able to benefit from my creation I want to be able to profit from it without the protection of copyright for example I lack the ability to print 100,000 a million copies of this novel to sell so without that protection you could print as many copies as you want no no no you do have the ability well I do however you can sell them right there's no law against selling them well hang on a second let me finish through I lack the resources to do that on my own now what I can do currently is I can go to a publisher and arrange a deal with the publisher since I have copyright to the material say you print these books for me without that copyright protection there would be nothing to prevent the publisher from cutting me the creator of the work of art out of the equation and the reason I say that it would actually inspire monopolies every new creation as soon as somebody put it out there it would be taken by whatever company could produce the most books in the shortest period of time and get it to the market first so I would lack the resources on my own to get it to market first someone else would beat me to the punch how would you address that problem well I think it's just first of all most authors don't really make that much money off their books anyway the publisher gets most of it already some authors a very small number make a good deal of money let's take J.K. Rowling for example J.K. Rowling in a copyright free world what could she have done I don't think she wrote the book thinking she was going to become a billionaire she did it because she loved writing and she was into this world and that's what makes a good writer anyway let's say she would have published her first couple of books but if they became very popular which pirating could actually help then after the second book she could be internationally famous and all these children love her she could send out a note listen I've got books 3 and 4 written and ready to go as soon as they get 100,000 subscribers for $10 a piece or something like that or let's say the books came out and she made money on these kind of ways some people started making movies of the books in the same year by different companies because they wouldn't need her permission but one of them might go and say listen we'll pay you a million dollars if you will consult with us and authorize this because we think we can draw more of your fans because they'll go see the movie that is authorized by you there's lots of ways you could profit or maybe she could get a job teaching English in a department because she's famous now and she's shown that she knows how to write but there's different ways to profit off of your your entire premise is predicated that she would originally have become known for writing the first book what I'm saying is if someone took that from her right off the bat she would never have the ability to gain any either notoriety award if you pilot someone's work you don't change the name there would be nothing to prevent that well I have a counter for that Adrienne if there's a publisher that's known to go sniping people's works and publishing it under their own name or whatever the case may be and cutting the original author out of it authors and people who really write good works are not going to go to this publisher any longer and this publisher will go out of business if they can't create their own works well not only that look consider right now their public domain works like Plato's republic let's say or the bible now there's nothing preventing you from publishing John Smith's republic and trying to sell it but no one's going to buy it because they want to buy the original thing by Plato they're going to think you're kind of a kook and if you're going to change the name of the author what else are you going to change I mean if she puts it out there on the internet first and publish it on the Kindle or on iBooks or something like that she's already got a established record of that she's the owner I mean not the owner she's the author so if someone wants to knock her off they're going to just keep her name on it I mean when you go to these little alleys in China and places and buy knocked off CDs it doesn't say you know zoo by they put the name of the creator on there so that people know what they're getting well that's actually a fair point you're right about one thing in the internet age it does give the individual with meager means the ability to get their original content to a huge number of people so actually you kind of in that vein because one of the things that my biggest concern is is that the creator of the content would be cut out of the loop by someone who has greater means but with the advent of the internet if sopa and pippa are stopped perhaps you know the individual who created the content could get it first to market and have a huge audience before anyone else could take the idea and take credit for it there's a great example of this louis ck who's a fairly well-known comedian he's not famous like you know my daughter anything but he's a fairly well known comedian but he has this comedy show just one a year and he I don't know if you heard what he did if you go to louis ck net I think or just search the louis ck on google he about a month ago he he he had done this annual comedy show and he recorded it and he spent about $30,000 to have a website develop so that he could easily sell this no DRM no nonsense no limits just download the file for $5 on paypal very simple and he spent about $200,000 on the show but he actually got that back in tickets the night of the show so really he was out $30,000 he made over a million dollars in downloads in about two weeks and I don't know what he's made since then because that was about a month ago and he he put it on his way he explained it he said oh I made a lot more than I thought so I'm going to give $500,000 to these four charities and because I'm only going to keep $250,000 for myself because that's really all I needed and the other $250,000 I'm going to split it among my staff and give them a big fat Christmas bonus and and so now the work's probably being pirated but so what he made it and he's probably still selling it because it's easy if people make their work easily accessible people are willing to pay for it just as a convenient service even without copyright and Stephen you know the example I gave two weeks ago was Radiohead using the freemium model by putting out their album for download and you know telling their fans hey if you like this album send us a few bucks and they made more on this album than they did on any of their previous albums yeah the other thing I would point out is there's a lot of creativity that is stifled right now by copyright so for example who knows what kind of remixing type musical techniques would be used if people weren't afraid to and how many documentaries that are made and then they have to get blocked because someone in the background there's a billboard or a painting on a building and someone claims copyright and he can't even film in front of buildings now because some people claim copyright and these things so there's all these blockages of creativity that would be unleashed so yeah some people would lose the monopoly ability to to other people for for doing something with their own property but on the other hand they would be more free to use works of others and build on it well there's no doubt that it's been taken to the to the extreme at this point I don't know I still kind of struggle with it I think that individuals that create something original should should have some recourse to prevent people but then again you bring up some interesting points but Stefan we've got someone that liked a way in let's take a call Steve in the Pensacola you're on the air hi Adrian hi everyone hey if I understand what he's saying correctly I may be wrong but what he's saying is by leaving it open like that that's almost either it could even go extreme anarchist or almost Marxist because under under a under our constitution and under the concept of freedom you have the right to protect that which is yours you if you could go back to the original argument of John Locke versus Thomas Hobbes you if you were to maintain all the freedoms that you were to have without government that would mean the ability to protect your property now the property under that we're talking about here yes it's it's not physical it's not it's intellectual but in the way that you would probably without government is somebody would have to come to you because if we didn't have the technology and so forth like we did but it is still your idea if and just like the person who needed work with they go to a blacksmith the blacksmith knew how to do it well he couldn't they couldn't produce multiple blacksmith on on a copy like that but when when you effectively when they say no you can't protect it that is like government kind of in a passive way saying no you can't you can't protect your own property that way Stephanie got a response for that yeah let let me let me just tell you the person where I'm coming from there's a lot of things rolled into there first of all patent and copyright were never called property until about a hundred something years ago when a propaganda campaign was launched by the government to defend it everyone saw them as monopolies and as a derogation or as an exception to regular property and people were nervous about that and so and it's not Marxist what my perspective is radically pro-property rights pro-capitalism and pro-free market and the reason I'm against patent and copyright is because they infringe on property rights they basically give people that hold these monopoly grants from the state okay that's more like Marxism that's more like communism the state grants these monopoly privileges that allows people to go to the government courts and sue other people on the market who are for just using their property the way they see fit in fact John Locke did not believe that copyright and patent were natural rights his homesteading theory said that we have fierce resources in the world things that only one person can use at a time and the only fair way to have a society be able to use these resources productively is to assign ownership rights in these things to the first person who finds it but he was talking about fierce resources not about ideas so I just don't think that that is correct now look Shakespeare had patrons before copyright people paid him some of the great music in world history was written before copyright you know the classical era I've paid photographers to photograph my son my family on vacation things like that they just give me the disc with the pictures on it so I'm paying them for their services I hired them because I saw their website and saw the group good work they had done there is no reason that you can't profit from your skills and from your services but actually there is no property right in ideas there is a property right in your body and it will be physical things in the world that you acquire by contract or that you find unowned in the state of nature but not in ideas ideas are just information and knowledge and the free market requires competition and to have competition people have to be able to emulate each other copy what other people are doing and try to do it better well now of course let's face it though at the time that that Locke lived and that Shakespeare lived they did not have the ability to mass produce things the way we do now and especially when you have to put a massive investment into something we're talking millions of dollars you could lose that before you could recover half of that cost that's correct but in a sense because of technology in the digital age it's easier to copy but it's also easier to do what Louis C.K. did or become an independent author and go around the publishing companies and go to iTunes or iBooks you can do your own textbooks now with so it's like a double edged sword it gets easier to copy and easier to compete and we have more production and it becomes easier to become your own producer as well and to make a profit on your own excellent questions Stephen thanks for the call Stefan we're coming up on the end of the show do you have anything else you'd like to say did you have a question for us I just want to say Stephanie you brought up some interesting points I'm still on the fence but you made me think a little bit so I appreciate that it's something I might have to give some more thought to the argument that IP is actually property it's really not like Stefan said you're talking about ideas and in the case of digital files you're talking about ones and zeros in a regular order and to suggest that that argument I don't agree with I think the concept itself has value and it has ownership but how far does that ownership extend that's I think let me suggest something first of all there's a really good video I think it's on questioncopyright.org and it's by Nina Paley it's one of the minute memes it's called copying is not theft one thing to do is to stop using the states and other metaphors that are not accurate so people use the word stealing and theft and piracy when they're talking about people copying files or sharing files now even if you think it should be illegal or against the law or a bad thing or a fence it is actually literally not stealing because if I steal your bicycle you don't have it anymore that's what stealing means but if you have a technique or a file of information and I copy that you still have it so if I see you making a cake a certain way and I copy your recipe I may be copying you but I'm not stealing anything from you so that's one way to think about it and I would also it is a difficult issue especially if you're used to thinking about it in the standard way I mean the western system has included these things for 200 years and so everyone assumes that this is part of property rights I would say think about it and there's a lot of good resources on my site articles by me, books by me and by other people too on c4sif.org that stands for center for the study of innovative freedom c4sif.org on the resources page so if you want to look into it further there's a lot of material there and it is a difficult issue so I understand you're thinking about it like this Well Stefan thank you very much for joining us today very good stuff and give that website one more time c4sif.org all right and we will talk to you again Stefan cancella sorry I have so much trouble with that but thanks for joining us all right and one thing that like I said I'm still kind of on the fence it's interesting to think about I was on the fence for a long time too and one thing that helped me out was you know I think the caller brought this up that you know back in the early days they didn't have the ability to copy works as easily and still recover their cost for it you know if there's something that won't bear a profit in a free market without actually getting a government granted monopoly on it and there's no market demand for it then it simply won't create it and it's no big deal yeah that already done sell me but hey I gotta sorry for the bad segue I gotta switch gears real quick something I wanted to really touch on the state department this week the Obama administration killed the keystone pipeline and as we heard from Canada calling prior Smith reporting from Canada on hey he's saying Canada's swimming in oil guys all we need to do is get a way to ship it down to you and a pipeline makes a lot of sense but you know what the administration wants to make sure that gas prices are still high and you know there's another player in this game that doesn't get talked about much and it's Warren Buffett Warren Buffett realized that hey you know what I have the ability to pressure the government to kill this pipeline and then I can buy up the only other method of transporting this oil to the United States all the railroads and that's what Warren Buffett of Berkshire Hathaway has been doing buying railroads up in that section of the world so guess what if Canada wants to get that oil to us that's how it's got to be transported and remember Brandon touched on it we have two aircraft carriers in the Straits of Hormuz protecting the flow of oil yet Canada has so much and we tell them no thanks hey the entire North American continent is swimming in oil we just got to drill for it and get it to our refineries it's so ridiculous putting people in harm's way in the Straits of Hormuz let's start another war for oil that's halfway around the planet and we can get it or take it it's unbelievable folks it just you know we got to wipe all these idiots out of all government offices and just get back to common sense just logical thinking imagine that it's not rocket science here people we need oil for now I'm all in favor of renewable energy sources but let's fix the problem short term first and then we can you know get solar energy it's great it's a sun it's a nuclear furnace in the sky that surprises provides all energy to the entire solar system yeah it's ridiculous alright before the end of the show if you want to do something tomorrow the liberty and justice for all Riley is at Vanoy Park from 2 to 5 I'm going to be there yep sign waving for Ron Paul today will be on the west side of the Courtney Campbell Causeway and Alex you talked about the LPF state convention didn't you I'm Adrian if you yeah that's usually talking I did yeah the LPF state convention is coming up we'll have more information on that soon check out 1787network.com or LPF.org for more information great show this week guys even without the loudmouth we'll catch you next week this is Liberty Underground of the 1787 network WTAN Clearwater Tampa Bay WDCF Dade City Tampa Bay KLRG