 All right, welcome back. We're here on General Housing and Military Affairs to hear a bill introduction on H387. H387 was one of a number of bills that came to us last year that are considered within the realm of social equity bills. This is a bill that was originally introduced, the biennium before, and I believe it was assigned to government operations at the time, but we were assigned this bill, this biennium, and so I wanted to be able to introduce it and have a walkthrough, and in this case, to have the introduction of the walkthrough together prior to having stakeholders or other interested folks come in to talk about it and testify to it. So with that, Representative China, are you back? Are you here? Yes, I'm here. Great, well, welcome. Thank you. Welcome back, and please, the microphone is yours. So it's good to see you all again, twice in the same week. Do I have the ability to share a screen? No, I don't. You will in a moment if you wish. Yeah, if not, I can send you the slideshow, but it might be easier if I just do it. Okay, you're good now. I am the co-host now. All right, so let's see. I'm always afraid I'm gonna show people my to-do list, and then they're gonna get vicarious trauma. All right, here we go. So, so HV87 is an act relating to establishing the task force to study and develop preparation proposals for the institution of shadow slavery. So I'll jump right in. So the purpose of the bill is to establish the task force to study and consider a state apology and proposal for reparations for the institution of slavery and make recommendations to the General Assembly on appropriate remedies. So I'm just gonna review some of the findings. There's more detail in the bill that you'll receive during the walkthrough, but the findings we acknowledged that from 1619 to 1865, hold on a second, I'm actually realizing that I have the house healthcare hearing on my phone. So I don't know if you can hear the noise in the background, but I'm leaving that now. So from 1619 to 1865, approximately 4 million Africans, their descendants were enslaved in the United States and the colonies that became the United States. And from 1789 to 1865, the United States, constitutionally and statutorily sanctioned the institution of slavery. And the slavery that flourished in the U.S. constituted an immoral and inhumane deprivation of the lives, liberty, citizens of rights and cultural heritage of Africans and denied Africans the fruits of their own labor. Furthermore, an inquiry into the ongoing effects of the institution of slavery and its legacy of persistent systemic structures of discrimination on living African Americans and society in the United States can be based in a preponderance of academic research, legal documentation, community evidence and culture markers. And following the abolition of slavery, the government at the federal, state and local level continued to perpetuate, condone and often profit from continued practices that brutalized and disadvantaged African Americans. These practices included sharecropping, convict leasing, Jim Crow laws, redlining, unequal education and disproportionate treatment at the hands of the criminal justice system. So as a result of this continued discrimination, African Americans currently suffered debilitating economic, educational and health hardships, including having nearly one million black people incarcerated an unemployment rate more than twice the current white employment rate and an average of less than one sixteenth of the wealth of white families, a disparity that has worsened, not improved over time. So H387 would make a task force to study and develop preparation proposals for any person as a result of the institution of slavery. I'm not gonna read you all the detail on the slide because some of this you'll review in the walkthrough. So just for the sake of, I think some repetition, repetition is good, but there's a fine balance between redundancy and good repetition. So it would look at the institution of slavery. It would look at the de jure and de facto discrimination against free slaves and their descendants from the end of the civil war at a present. And for people who don't know Latin, the jury means sanctioned by the law and de facto means happening otherwise. I mean, that's my best way of saying it. Maybe the lawyer could clarify that. So then it would also ask them to study and develop proposals as a result of the lingering negative effects of the institution of slavery, the use of instructional resources and technologies to deny the inhumanity of slavery and the crime against humanity of people of African descent in Vermont and the US. They would study the role of Northern complicity in the Southern based institution of slavery and the direct benefits to public and private institutions due to slavery. They would, they're being asked to recommend appropriate ways to educate the Vermont public of their findings and to recommend appropriate remedies in consideration of those findings and to submit to the general assembly, the study that they, a study sort of of their work which would have findings and recommendations. So the membership, I don't give a lot of detail here. I would summarize it as it's an 11 member task force appointed by the governor and legislature and minimum four pointy shall represent major civil society and reparations organizations such as the NAACP justice for all black lives matter. Members shall be drawn from diverse backgrounds to represent the interests of communities of color throughout the state have experienced working to implement racial justice reform and to the extent possible represent geographically diverse areas of the state. The duties, they would identify, compile and synthesize the relevant corpus of evidentiary documentation of the institution of slavery that existed within the US and the colonies that became the United States from 1619 through 1865 and some of this is a little redundant from earlier. They would recommend appropriate ways to educate the public. They would recommend appropriate remedies such as an apology, changes in policy and law, reversal of injuries, compensation, rehabilitation, restitution and other reparations. And their report would be due to the general assembly one year from the date of the first meeting according to the way the bill is written at this time. So just a little blurb about the history of slavery in Vermont. There has been some research and there is evidence that slavery persisted in Vermont after the creation of the Vermont Republic. In the Vermont Republic's constitution, slavery was abolished with exceptions and that continued in the Vermont Constitution which was ratified on July 8th. I believe that's the word we use for a constitution approved, ratified, accepted, et cetera on July 8th, 1777. Here's a quote from a seven day story that was taken from a book put out by the Vermont Historical Society in 2014 and the book is called The Problem of Slavery in Early Vermont, 1777 to 1819. And the quote is that among the slaveless holding in Lawless Elite were Vermont Supreme Court judge Stephen Jacob and Levi Allen, described by Whitfield as Ethan's troublesome brother and nearly 60 years after the supposed abolition of slavery in Vermont, Ethan Allen's daughter Lucy Carolyn Hitchcock returned to Burlington from Alabama and possession of two slaves, a mother and child. And Hitchcock continued to enslave this pair for six years in the Queen city. And another quote from an article called disowning slavery gradual emancipation and race in New England, 1780 to 1860, that came out in 1998. The language of the act was sufficiently vague that slaveholding may have persisted without sanction in a few cases for several years. So although Vermont may not have the history of mass slavery that we see in the South that persisted as long, Vermont did have slavery continue in our state, at least up until you see here, 60 years after the supposed abolition which is quite some time and slavery still is allowed in our constitution. So when we talk about systemic racism we recognize that slavery laid the foundation for the systemic racism we see today for the policies, laws, practices that persist. And many of these things have changed and some things haven't. So you can see here some examples and whether or not these happened in Vermont and to what extent would be determined and further understood through the work of this task force. Sharecropping, convict leasing, Jim Crow laws, redlining, unequal education and disproportionate treatment in the criminal justice system. The general assembly has done some work on systemic racism during my time in the legislature at least. And before I'm gonna speak to just my experience so far. So in 2017, we passed Act 54 and it created a task force that acknowledged that racial disparities within the state systems of education, labor and employment, access to housing and healthcare and economic development. It's stated that while slavery has been outlawed in this country for 150 years, the vestiges of it and of Jim Crow remain today in the form of systemic racism. And it concluded everyone has grown up in this country, everyone who has grown up in this country is a beneficiary of a white supremacy culture. We are on a path to reversing this but it will require difficult decisions. And so before I do the final slide I just wanna reflect on that for a minute that it's the first reaction of many people would be like it happened a long time ago. I don't see how I'm benefiting from that but we have to keep in mind that a lot of the development of the United States was based on the backs of slaves that slaves built the White House that slaves slave labor grew products that then came to Vermont and contributed to our economy. So even though we may not have had mass slavery in Vermont we're part of an interconnected economy and that we as a state in some ways benefited from that. And not only that but the national policies, the way that decisions are made at the federal level and then we implement on the state level, et cetera. They all go back to a constitution for our nation and state that treated humans in different ways. And in fact, even considering a human three-fifths of a person when we count them in a census, for example. So there's a lot of, there's a sad but rich history that exists. And as many people know I'm a clinical social worker and one of my areas of specialty is treating trauma. And when we treat trauma it's important to validate and acknowledge the harm that was caused for a person. And it's as a society until we face the truth. And when I say that, this is why study is involved because there's all different stories but if we can collect that and bring it together and present that to the public as a society that acknowledgement of the suffering is an important first step. And your committee has experienced with this with the eugenics apology where you created a space for people to come forward and face a very painful past and you apologized and committed, we committed as a body to making changes moving forward. So similarly here, you have a similar kind of ask which is to have a group, not the committee but a group appointed in a year to create some kind of findings and body of work so that we can tell the truth about what happened and face it and to recommend to us as a general assembly what are some remedies for individuals on the individual level but also on a societal level to address the harm that was caused. So in closing, I'm just gonna show this timeline of dismantling systemic racism in Vermont. So in 2017, we passed Act 54 which acknowledged racial disparities across all systems of state government and that's the report I referred to earlier. Then in Act nine of 2018, we committed to dismantling systemic racism and we hired the racial equity director. In 2018, HR 25 was introduced, many people on this committee were co-sponsors who were around then where we asked the Senate to amend the constitution to ensure that slavery was completely prohibited. We didn't pass the resolution because when we introduced it, colleagues in the Senate expressed a commitment to doing that and so there was no sensing going through all those motions, but it got sort of got the ball rolling. In 2021, we passed, which I think you all, I don't know if there's anyone new on the committee since then but because we've had a few seats turn over but we passed Act 33 which you all probably remember created the Health Equity Advisory Commission which was empowered to address disparities and promote equity in healthcare. We also passed JRH six last session which declared that quote racism constitutes a public health emergency environment quote and it committed to once again eradicating systemic racism. So there's a long record of, well, maybe it's not that long, it's a few years but there's a solid record at this point of our body committing to processes that acknowledge the harm caused by the state and make efforts to address the harms and to make amends. And a piece of that is proposal two which we're gonna be having hearings on, I believe next Wednesday, public hearing next Wednesday at the state house. You saying that makes me cringe a little but yes, in person at the state house, public hearing, JRH six 2021 of 2012, I'm sorry, proposal two, it's a proposal to amend the constitution to ensure that slavery is prohibited to serve as a foundation for addressing systemic racism in our state's laws and institutions. And the next step would be, the logical next step would be to bring in witnesses and hear testimony and consider passing HD 87 which would establish a task force to study and develop reparation proposals for the institution of shadow slavery. So on that note, I'll end just by saying, thanking the racial justice alliance that these initiatives that I just presented, every single one of them, I'm just gonna double check so that I'm correct, every single one of the bills and resolutions that I just presented to you came out of the work of the Racial Justice Alliance. And I think it's important to recognize that because it's a black led organization with other people of color working in the leadership but it's black centered, it's African-American centered and that these suggestions and solutions and policy changes are coming from black leadership. And I just think we need to lift up that point and honor it because part of healing is also sharing power. And you heard us talk about that the other day with seating powers mission. It's not just about changing where we spend money. It's about changing how we share power as a society and empowering people who have been most impacted in telling the truth and coming up with solutions is part of healing as a society from the wounds of our difficult past. So that being said, I appreciate you letting me run through that and I see some questions. So I'm gonna let the chair step in and I'm happy to answer questions and I'm happy to hang around for Tucker Anderson's walkthrough and I'm available as needed. So thank you. Representative Murphy. Thank you so much, Chair Stevens. And thank you, Representative Gina, for your presentation. My comments are really just a request that you actually offer your slide deck to our committee assistant so it can be on our website as a document because it's a wonderful compilation of detail. Thank you. Yep, yes, I planned to do that. So I kind of wait to do that to the last minute because sometimes while I'm sitting in Zoom limbo or on the bench on the uncomfortable bench cramp next to seven lobbyists, I'll change something. So I will email it in when I sign off this call or I could actually email it now. Great, thank you. Representative Gina, this sounds like in your presentation that this is not a truth in reconciliation commission like H96 proposes. This is really a committee that's meant to put together, study the past, come to a point and recommend whether or not anything like a truth in reconciliation commission and apology reparations or what have you would be steps to move forward in the continuing dismantling of systemic racism in the view of this committee. Is that right? I think that's a correct distinction to make that what this task force would do would be extensive research. And if you read, Tucker will go through the details because I didn't want to give a watered down walkthrough. I was trying to kind of do a little bit of the structure and then some historical info. Tucker can get into the details but they are given powers like with subpoena and access to records. So we're really empowering this group to bring in witnesses, to go through documentation and create, it's sort of like creating a like telling the story with evidence and then coming to us with recommendations. Yeah, so it's not like the group is going to make those decisions on their own. If, I think we, as we hear from other witnesses maybe the committee would come to a different conclusion but we started out at this point because this was modeled on federal level legislation that has been brought forward over and over again for many years to look at a national process for reparations. So that's why we went with this approach but it is different than a truth and reconciliation process. Yes. Thank you for the presentation. And again, please share your slide deck with Ron so he can post it on the website. But I appreciate you taking the time off from your work in healthcare to present to us. Tucker, is he still here? There you are. Welcome back. And we're here for a walkthrough of this bill. So please, the microphone is yours. Thank you and good morning for the record. Tucker Anderson, office of legislative council. It has been a little while since I have been back in this committee. So would you like me to share the bill on the screen or would you like me to walk through and you can all track along on your own devices? I think it might be helpful if it were up on the screen. I mean, I know we can all track along but yeah, if you could share it, that would be great. If you're comfortable doing that. I am comfortable doing that. I just have to open it in a separate panel so that we don't inadvertently share any state secrets. That's a joke, right? Can we all see the bill on the screen? Excellent. So a bit of background before jumping into the walkthrough represented, just touched upon it but the contents of the bill that you have in front of you, H387 are based largely as in 98 to 99% on a bill that has been introduced at the federal level by representative Conyers almost every single year since 1989. Much of the findings, the purpose and the structure come from that federal bill that is annually reintroduced with the exception of the structure of the commission which we get into in section two and three of the bill and some Vermont specific context that is built in including some of the language. Starting in section one which covers the findings, declarations and purpose of the bill. It starts in subsection A with some findings concerning the institution of chattel slavery in the United States. Begins by stating that from 1619 to 1865 were approximately four million Africans in their descendants were enslaved in the United States and the colonies. From 1789 through 1865, the United States constitutionally and statutorily sanctioned the institution slavery. The slavery that flourished in the United States constituted an immoral and human deprivation of lives, liberty and citizenship rights and cultural heritage of Africans and denied Africans the fruits of their own labor. Two of these were touched upon representative China's introduction of the bill. The next finding and inquiry into the ongoing effects of the institution of slavery and its legacy of persistent systemic structures on living African-Americans in society in the US can be based in a preponderance of academic research, legal documentation, community evidence and culture markers. This finding is teeing up some of the provisions the representative China touched upon the gathering and occasional inspection of documentary evidence that is available to this task force. Following the abolition of slavery, government at the federal state and local level continued to perpetuate, condone and often profit from the continued practices that brutalized and disadvantaged African-Americans. Again, representative China touched upon this, the practices included sharecropping, convict leasing, Jim Crow laws, redlining unequal education and disproportionate treatment at the hands of the criminal justice system. As a result of both historic and continued discrimination, African-Americans currently suffer some of these debilitating consequences including having nearly 1 million black people incarcerated and unemployment rate, more than twice the current white unemployment rate and an average of less than 1 16 to the wealth of white families, a disparity that has not improved over time. Subsection B contains the purpose of the chapter that establishes this task force. Purpose is first to study and develop reparation proposals for any person as a result of the institution of slavery, including the transatlantic and domestic slave trade that existed from 1565 through 1865 within the colonies that became the United States and the constitutional and statutory support for the institution of slavery by federal and state governments. So those are the two components of that first purpose, which is study and develop reparation proposals for any person as a result of the institution of slavery. Next, the leisure and de facto discrimination against freed slaves and their descendants during that period and Representative China nailed it. Desjure means by law, facto means by fact. So this is calling out both the legal bases for the discrimination and the factual bases for the discrimination. I apologize that my dog is very interested in the context of this legislation. Atlas, move along please. Thank you. Next, the lingering negative effects of the institution of slavery and the discrimination described in subdivisions one and two of this subsection D on living African-Americans and on society in Vermont and the United States. The use of instructional resources and technologies to deny the inhumanity of slavery and the crime against the humanity of people of African descent. The role of Northern complicity in the Southern based institution of slavery and the direct benefits to public and private institutions including institutions of higher education, corporations, religious institutions and other associations. Next purpose, to recommend appropriate ways to educate the Vermont public of the task force's findings, something that representative Sheena touched upon, to recommend appropriate remedies and to submit to the general assembly the study that is pursuing to section two of this act together with any recommendations, which moves us along to the study. Section two, section two establishes the task force and assigns duties. Subsection B, the task force shall perform the following duties. First, to identify, compile and synthesize the body of evidence of the institution of slavery that exists in the United States and the colonies from 1619 through 1865. The task force's documentation and examination shall include the facts related to. So again, these are going to be the factual and evidentiary bases for the study that is submitted. The capture and procurement of Africans, the transport of Africans to the United States and the colonies, including their treatment during transport, the sale and acquisition of Africans as chattel property in interstate and interstate commerce. The treatment of African slaves in the colonies and the United States, including the deprivation of their freedom, exploitation of their labor and the destruction of their culture, language, religion and families. The extensive denial of humanity, sexual abuse and trade of persons as chattel property. The role of federal and state governments in supporting the institution of slavery and constitutional and statutory provisions. Again, getting into the Dejeure bases here, the federal and state laws that have discriminated against African-Americans and their descendants. The other forms of discrimination in the public and private sectors against African-Americans and their descendants. Examples that come up again, redlining education, funding discrepancies and predatory financial practices. And the lingering negative effects of the institution of slavery on living African-Americans and society in the United States. The task force is also required to recommend appropriate ways to educate the Vermont public of their findings and to recommend appropriate remedies and consideration of those findings. In making these recommendations, the task force shall address each of the following components. How the recommendations comport with international standards of remedy for wrongs and injuries caused by the state which shall include reparations and special measures as understood by relevant international protocols. How the state of Vermont will offer a formal apology on behalf of the people of Vermont for the perpetration of gross human rights violations and crimes against humanity. How Vermont laws and policies that continue to disproportionately and negatively affect African-Americans as a group and how those that perpetuate the lingering effects both material and psychosocial can be eliminated. How the injuries resulting from matters described within this section too, and of course in the research of the task force can be reversed and provide appropriate policies, programs, projects and recommendations. How any form of compensation to the descendants of enslaved persons should be calculated. What form of compensation should be awarded through what instrumentalities and who should be eligible for that compensation. Finally, how in consideration of the task force's findings, any other forms of rehabilitation or restitution is warranted in what the form and scope of those measures should take. So to sum each of those descriptive criteria, summing that up, once they've investigated the de jure and de facto bases, both for historical slavery and for ongoing institutions of discrimination, how they have recommendations for how to remedy moving forward each of those, which may include reparations. Subsection C ends the section by requiring that the task force submits a written report of its findings and recommendations to the general assembly, not later than the date that is one year after the first meeting of the task force. So they have one year after the task force is brought together to provide this report to the general assembly. Section three, for operations nitty gritty. This is the membership of the task force. The task force shall consist of 11 members that shall be appointed as follows. First, three members will be appointed by the governor, not more than two of whom shall be from one political party. The other eight members shall be appointed by the general assembly, four by the Senate, four by the house. And of course, the powers there are the Senate committee on committees and the speaker of the house. Not more than four of those eight shall be members of the general assembly. And each appointing authority, Senate and house shall appoint not more than two members from the same political party. At minimum four of those eight shall represent major civil society and reparations organizations that have historically championed the cause of repertory justice. Members shall be drawn from diverse backgrounds to represent the interests of communities of color throughout the state, have experience working to implement racial justice reform and to the extent possible represent geographic diversity through the areas of the state. The terms of office for the members shall be for the life of the task force, which is one year after the task force is convened that before it gets submitted and we'll get to it later, but the expiration of the task force follows that. A vacancy in the task force shall not affect the powers of the task force. Someone leaves that isn't going to for some reason dissolve this body and it shall be filled in the same manner as the original appointment. So if a member leaves for some reason and it was a senatorial appointment, the Senate committee on committees gets to appoint for that vacancy. The dates that we're going to get to in this section are no longer relevant, but we will cover them. The governor shall call the first meeting of the task force to occur on before January 1st. We've passed the current date in the bill, but that can be amended. Seven members of the task force shall constitute a quorum. That's seven out of 11, something to keep in mind from a government operations perspective, this affects things such as the ability for final action to be taken by the task force at a given meeting all the way through whether or not a gathering of members constitutes a quorum for purposes of the open meeting law. The task force is given authority to elect their own chair and vice chair from among their membership. So there won't be an appointed chair unlike some other task forces you may have dealt with. Subsection F deals with the compensation of the membership. These are the standard provisions you see for many of your commissions and task forces. There is a separate compensation statute for members of the general assembly when they're not in session. And for other members who are compensated pursuant to 32 BSA section 1010, the limitation on compensation is 20 meetings and the money that will be paid for those per diems in compensation is going to be appropriated directly to the task force. Section four, this deals with some of the powers that Representative Chiena briefly touched upon such as the ability to acquire documentation to subpoena individuals for testimony. So we'll start subsection A dealing with hearings and sessions of the task force for the purposes of carrying out the provisions of this chapter, this bill. The task force and this permissive may hold hearings and sit and act at any time and location in Vermont. They can request the attendance and testimony of witnesses, request the production of evidence and documentation. And they may seek an order from the Civil Division of the Superior Court compelling testimony or compliance with a subpoena. They can ask the judicial branch here to intervene and compel the production of evidence or potentially the appearance and presentation of testimony. The powers of subcommittees and members, any subcommittee or member of the task force may, if it's authorized by the greater body, take any action that the task force is authorized to take pursuant to the section. So the task force can vote to delegate some of their powers and authority to subcommittees or individual members to carry out the purposes of the chapter. The task force may acquire directly from the head of any department agency or instrumentality of the executive branch, information that the task force considers useful and the discharge of its duties. All of those departments and agencies shall cooperate with the task force with respect to that information and furnish it as requested by the task force and to the extent permitted by law. When this information comes to the task force, the task force shall keep that information confidential to the extent that it is confidential or exempt from the Public Records Act. So any exemptions from the PRA, any confidentiality that's related to that information carries to the task force and so would any duties of confidentiality. Section five, we deal with some of the administrative structures around the task force. Task force is permitted to appoint in fixed compensation of personnel as the task force considers appropriate. They will have the administrative technical and legal assistance of the Human Rights Commission. They have some contracting power here. They may procure supply services and property by contract. They may enter into contracts with departments, agencies and instrumentalities of the United States, state agencies or private firms and institutions for the conduct of research or surveys, the preparation of reports and other activities that are necessary for the discharge of their duties that we covered in section three. Section six is the expiration of the task force. The task force shall terminate 30 days after the date on which the report is submitted to the General Assembly. So that would be not later than 30 days, one year after the task force is assembled. Section seven contains the appropriation. $200,000 is appropriated from the General Fund to the Human Rights Commission for the purpose of per diem compensation, reimbursement of expenses and the discharge of duties and powers granted to the task force by this act. And the effective date was July 1st, 2021. And that can be amended so we have retroactive formation of the task force and subsequent expiration. Those are the words on the page. Thank you for taking us through that, Representative Murphy. Thank you, Chair Stevens. I have a question about words on the page. So I think it's appropriate at this time. I'm still trying to figure out when we ask what. But in section four on page 10, under powers, when we get to number three, request the production of, in my mind that means we could be saying you can request that something actually be made as opposed to brought forward. And so is that just me not taking the lawyer view of the definition of production? Yes, production in legalese in the term of art means you send it to me, not necessarily that you create. So we often draw a legal distinction between the creation of a record and the production, pursuant to a subpoena or some sort of formal request. I had a feeling, but I just wanted to verify. Thanks. Representative Blumlee. Thanks, Chair. While we have Representative Chino with us, I had a broader question. We took testimony on H273 earlier and I'm wondering how those two bills are related or aligned in any way? May I answer? Yes, please. So they are aligned. When you look at the findings of H273, it makes the case based on research that Seeding Power did to compile those findings. It makes the case that systemic racism exists and it's affected wealth disparity for not only black people, but also indigenous people and other people of color. And it proposes a solution. One specific intervention that the state could do in terms of how it invests money and distributes power. So I'd see a connection there because one could say that H273 is an example of one kind of reparation. So I see a connection there for sure. I would say that it would be beneficial for us to continue taking acts of reparation regardless of whether or not we do further study. In other words, there's enough findings out there and we've passed enough legislation where we've acknowledged there's a problem that to say, oh, we shouldn't take action, we need to look into it more. I think we're past that point. We've already taken actions and like I showed you before the timeline and there's more. There's the ethnic and social equity studies bill. There's other examples we could give. However, I feel like what we do, so if I'm trying to think of like an analogy, it's like you have a house and you know, it's an old house. We live in Vermont. Most of us live in old, many of us live in old houses. You know the old house has 80 things that need to be fixed and you just don't have the time, resources or energy to fix them all at once. And in fact, there's not even the workforce to do that. So you do what you, if you're like me, you try not to wait till it's an emergency. You try to plan ahead, but the reality is sometimes you're like, oh, I guess I'm doing that thing now because this just happened. And I feel like that's the approach we've been taking where we know there's all these problems and we're like, well, this year we're gonna fix the windows. Next year, we're gonna paint. The next year maybe we'll do the heating system but I don't know yet. But ultimately the foundation needs to be fixed, you know? And until we fix, we can keep fixing everything else but if the foundation is off then things are gonna crack again, things are gonna break again. So I think that, you know, as we continue moving forward with dismantling racism, we have to get to the root. And we're taking, hopefully taking a step with proposal two, the voters will decide ultimately. That's who decides to amend the constitution. But I think us bringing it to the voters, even if it did not pass, it raises public awareness. I tend to think it would pass because most people don't want slavery in the constitution. At this point, most people don't believe slavery should exist. But I bring that up because it's all interconnected. And so we could be fixing the foundation while fixing the windows, but it would be good at some point to take stock of all the problems in the house and to make a strategic plan like a capital plan of what we're gonna do when and what timeline because then, and that's what this work could give us because if a group took the time and energy and had the resources to do a comprehensive study and compilation and an official public record of the state that acknowledges how slavery happened here, how we benefited all the things you heard then and they gave us some ideas. We could construct a roadmap over the next few years and then looking back, really be able to say that as a society, we faced the problems of the past took a step forward. However, while we're doing that, it doesn't mean we shouldn't fix anything. And so I think we should pass past proposal to, I think we should pass H273 and other equity bills that are spread all through our committees. But I also don't think do, it's not mutually exclusive. Like doing that won't erase the need for this so we could do all that. And we might look back in 10 years and say we missed a bunch of things because we didn't really look hard at the past and create that space as a society to face the trauma and to heal. So I don't know if that's helpful but that's my musings on how they're all connected. Oh, are you all set? No, it's all right. Yeah, I've set for now. Thank you. All right, Representative Walsh. Thank you, Chair Stevens. I've got a, this might sound like nitpicking but I've got a question. I wonder if the definition of the potential beneficiaries is a little bit too restrictive. It seems as if we're limiting this to Africans who are brought here or the living descendants of those Africans brought here because of slavery. And it seems to me that might exclude a number of people who would be equally deserving and a couple of things come to mind. For example, Jamaicans who perhaps were not directly brought here from Africa but was a way station and they're not living descendants of those slaves or people from any African country who came here voluntarily. For example, during the 20th century and were subject to Jim Crow and those other systemic racism issues that you raise. So is, I don't know if you want to try to broaden that definition or if that's a real problem or is that something to leave to the task force to try to define? Dr. Representative Walsh, that was something that we were particularly aware of when the bill was being put together. And I will note for you that when you get to the operative provisions of the bill it specifically uses the term person. So for example, in section, let's take a look at this, both sections one and two when it discusses the study and development of reparation proposals it is for any person as a result of practices and institutions that are then listed below that. So it's not specific to any particular group or category. It's for any person that is either a descendant of or a party that is directly affected by any of the institutions or practices that come later. Furthermore, when you get to the section of the bill that deals with the task force and its recommendations one of the duties that they have in developing both the study and the proposals that result from the study is to examine within Vermont's context who should be a beneficiary based on the particularized history that they are studying that will come back to the General Assembly and you can make decisions from there. May I also weigh in? I think that explanation that would seem to capture my concern. Thank you. May I also weigh in, Chair? I'm assuming yes, it looks like you know it. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm trying to just be more aware because on Zoom sometimes you can't tell things. Yeah. That just to expand a bit on what Tucker said that the bill was written centering African-Americans who descended from the institution of slavery in America but we try to acknowledge that there's circles beyond that circles around that initial group that are impacted and the further you get from the center the perhaps the less the impact perhaps not but we really tried to center start by centering Americans of African descent who came from had roots in the institution of slavery people who have descended from enslaved persons but one could say that if you were Jamaican you're most likely you know if you're an African of African descent from Jamaica you're most likely a descendant of slavery you know if an enslaved person so that's another layer but then another layer are you mentioned recent immigrants from Africa although their families may have faced a completely different legacy of colonization that's interconnected with the slave trade and what happened on earth over the last 400, 500 years they're not impacted the same as immigrants but they are impacted by systemic racism and so that you know so they're another circle and then we go further and we would say that other people of color have faced harm because of systemic racism that's rooted in slavery before those groups were even on the continent and we're not even talking about indigenous people in this discussion yet who had a whole other story of oppression and who were also enslaved you know at times you know so it really I appreciate Tucker's point because the task force is to study and develop reparation proposals for any person we did say that and then we go on to center black people who descended who are descendants of enslaved people and go outwards so I hope that also helps a bit that it was deliberate to center and lift up the struggle of the people who have suffered the longest from it in this place but we didn't but we wanna also acknowledge that it affects many others so and the benefits go the same way too that even people who have descended from slavery benefit from the institution of slavery in some ways and you know because it built the economy we have so if somebody climbs the ladder so to speak let's say somebody is a descendant of an enslaved person but they become wealthy investing in companies that are rude you know that started from exploiting slave labor in some way even though that person has faced harm they're also benefiting so it actually gets really complicated and we need to think about that this part of the process too I'll stop there but just that's just some more thoughts about the harm that slavery has caused and the benefits it caused and you know I think the question is who faced what in that equation? So representative Parsons. Thank you I was gonna save this til we got if we went further with this but since the conversation is going I might as well go along with it. I think the past five minutes really brings up one of the reasons that reparations has always been kind of on the back burners because you either cast too narrow of a net to really capture people who may have suffered from it and then you start growing it out and you just you can't stop. It's really hard to stop growing as representative Cheena said growing those circles around from that you know from that center central group where do you draw that line where you say all right we're stopping expanding this circle and that's in my opinion where it's always come down to where the struggle is because you can't I mean like you said should reparations go to a black millionaire or do we cap it out? Do we cap it as a net wealth? You may have you may be in that small group but now you're flourishing. Are you out of that small group now? There's just so many variables in it that you know the impossible and I think that's why it hasn't happened because it probably is to try and I don't know put a dollar on somebody's suffering I guess I don't know what the goal is but. No it's clearly been difficult and it's and I think the question here in this bill is should there be a task force that can delve in not just to the philosophy of that but of what a possible solution might be and presented back to us. That's the question in the bill. I guess just to expand on that I understand it but this isn't the first committee that's been or Ruth has tried has been done over and over and over and over and that's why it always stalls in my opinion is that you just I appreciate wanting to have that committee to try and figure that out. That committee's been had multiple, multiple, multiple times throughout this country and I think finding that group of people and where you where the cutoff line is is always kind of where it ends. Great any further questions for Tucker or for Brian at this time? Can I ask Tucker a question? I got my team unusual. Yeah well just because representative Parsons you said that it's been tried before. I know this has been discussed but I wanted to ask Tucker because I who has actually passed reparations task force? I think the city of Burlington currently has one but they haven't finished their work yet. Who else has passed one in our you know and actually done this? I'm not specific to Vermont just to throw that out. Yeah, yeah exactly. Yeah I was asking Tucker like you know yeah like because Tucker might know this and if not this might be an area to take some testimony but so I would recommend bringing in some folks to give you testimony on this. Here is what I'm aware of. The commissions and task forces that have been tried in the past focused on very discreet issues and populations. So in the United States the only one that I'm aware of was in Maine and it dealt with the indigenous populations in Maine and very specifically with the what we're known at the time of Maine as the Indian schools in Maine and it dealt with the dissolution of native families in that state. Outside of the United States there have been truth and reconciliation commissions that have dealt with very specific proposals and the most notorious would be in South Africa and I can send you the materials that I have but again I would recommend bringing in someone who has done more meticulous and detailed research on the perhaps more specifically international bodies because that is a component of this bill. It speaks very specifically to addressing and perhaps adopting international protocols for these recommendations. So looking at some of the international bodies that have been created around truth and reconciliation reparations and similar issues. And thank you Representative China for taking time out of your day to present this bill and to Tucker for walking us through it. And we will start to put together a list of stakeholders and folks who perhaps Brian people who are part of the racial justice alliance and others who can discuss the histories that might be involved with this as we move forward with it in conversation. All right everybody, it's 11 30 and I think I'm gonna call it lunch time. Unless anybody had any further comments on going to go back to where we were before talking and talking about any of the particular legislation that we've dealt with or we can, we can just take the break now and I don't know, is it warm enough to take a walk yet? Yeah, let's just do that and Representative Murphy. Thanks Chair Stevens. I just was gonna ask, I know we've had at least one bill and of course I'm totally blanking on what it was where people had questions and it was suggested we'd bring in some witnesses and stuff. And so as we do have bills come to our agenda if you could send out a highlight or tag any for us that are at a place where we can do the deeper dive where we should be asking those questions or say if that's the level we're coming to on this bill are we gonna be hearing from this group or person? Just if there's some, I'm starting to kind of lose track of where in the chute many of our focuses are. Yeah, no, that's fair because there's gonna be a lot of distractions what with a lot of the new bills. Some of this, we still have bills that haven't been introduced from last year. We are going to get a number of bills this year. So yes, that's totally fair about just to make clear. And again, sometimes you'll know by the numbers, right? Anything passed for 70 something like the bill I brought up today, that's this year. Anything before that is last year. But yeah, no, it's totally fair. Just in terms of what level of preparation folks wanna go into, yep. Well, and just trying to help you with what you want us to be ready to do whether we should be ready to think that this is closing out today or this is one that we can put in some thoughts for further look. Yep, I agree, I hear you. Representative Walsh. Thank you, I don't remember exactly when I did this I think it was two years ago. I put together a report for the committee on truth and reconciliation commissions. I can resend that though it's more along the lines of truth and reconciliation rather than this much bigger scope of this task force. I also have details of what the main commission did. The one that Tucker Anderson referred to both very short documents, I can send them to Ron and send them out to the committee. And I think, you know, perhaps again, the potential area of study for on 387 too would be Evanston Illinois just had last year instituted well, they actually tried to make their first payouts of a reparations plan, but they had put money aside several years ago, call them reparations and then have been trying to figure out how to distribute funds in a way. And so that would be an area that we could look into as well, but that's not for today.