 Made the most successful artistic director in the United States, he's in the lobby, usually before every show, and in every interview. A big guy, a loud sweater that Jody's most used to make him excited. And they can always tell him whatever they thought of him. And his subscribers trust him, and he trusts them. And we'll always land in here. And even when they don't like a particular job, they can sound off to him about it. And think, alright, we may be down the line, I'll have some sort of interview. I'm not even bored, this is even quite still. But he also, quite consciously, tries to stay part of a larger naturalistic sphere. So he's not only just trying to, you know, be in feedback with his subscribers, and so he does tell them that's part of what he trusts them. But then, you know, it's not enough to be dead, because they know where he lives, and they know where they're going. It's been very, very conversation. So the interesting thing about this aspect of conversation was from the NARA's perspective, you want to generate as much feedback as you can get. And then you need to have some methodology of waiting for those voices. And certainly, print journalism in the past has been a big way, a big waiting factor. And then there's this other aspect like, trust, do you find people you personally have a relationship with? Trust, to give you feedback. But I think that's sort of like the question, how do you generate voices, and then how do you wait for those voices? And there are, I mean, my inclination is usually to go online, and talk about what people are doing online. But like, people are both blogging and tweeting, filling out forms for a gold star. But then there's a question of reputation and how do you wait for those voices? Mark. It makes me wonder about audiences. And I also, I sometimes wonder if we trust our audiences. That we want to do the work for them, but we don't trust them enough to say, do you need to rewrite the play? That's like, I think we often tackle structure, these things on art terms, on artist terms, and not in the audience terms. And we're asking them to meet us where we are. And Adam, where can we meet them where they are? And it made me think a lot about what the band was saying about somebody feeling like, I'm not an expert, so I can't weigh in on this. But it's, I trust you to pay your $20 to see it. So, for now, let me briefly hear it. We have previews, which is the follow-up. And we have our first previews actually in a week. I've finished the process while we're done, and I probably will not have written the last scene. And we can do this for like 10 years. So we can train that audience, because after the show we will say, writer, director, composer, lyricist, over there, look at that tree. We've been gotten, we're going to get a good first few years, we'll say, oh, I can't come here. But over time, we've gotten to understand how much we rely on them. And so it's taken a while to train a particular audience, because it's not everyone in this crowd, in this town, that they know we rely on their feedback. And that's what is free-show for them, so that we can feedback and they can say, I was lost at this point, this just makes sense, this concept work, you really should have a song there, stuff like that. But it takes a long time to get them to trust us that we're not going to go, you just didn't understand it, you know, that they will trust us with their opinions. Obviously, I mean, is this something of what Steppenwolf is doing? Maybe, Paul is in here, who would know about that? I know that they've got their 101 classes, where they're taking an audience through, after each show that they've seen, it's the same group. Just a tiny thought, not knowing a lot about it, but it's not, it's sort of a class, but isn't it actually sort of a group of donors? Well... No, I don't give a... It's a donor. They pay to be a part of that, and part of that is because the program has gotten such, you know, it's gotten so popular now, but I think it began and started it really as a way to get their board to have a greater understanding of the process. New work. New work. Right. It's amazing, too. I actually went last year, not to all of them, to one of the sessions, they actually have, they pick and pay, but they also have free admission for students, which is an interesting way of calling the baby. The audience. And they do, they take people through three floor productions, so there's continuity of that developing range about which to talk about the internet. It's an interesting process. And the audience ahead, the participants have to commit to going through all of those that they will be accepted into the program, if you will, unless they're actually... Yes. I think the one other very important thing was feedback. We can have this gentleman here, and other people who've spoken, is a question of whether you really want to hear what people have to say. And I think one other element that we haven't discussed is respect. And I think that that's a fundamental part of trust. And so on the one hand, when you're having feedback sessions, not, sorry, talkback sessions, where it was discussed in the last breakout session, that we're actually doing it for the audience, more than we really are doing it to learn about the play for ourselves. It's a difficult thing. You've also explained you're doing it in one town. So then how do you handle talkbacks and others? So it's a very difficult thing. I think we have to be much clearer in our own minds when not just paying lip service to ask for feedback. In my experience, the reasons for talkbacks are not what they seem. So much of theater's talkbacks have to do with audience development and having subscribers. That's basic. That's why a lot of talkbacks have to, we want you to be more involved in our theater, because we want you to buy much more tickets because we want you to subscribe. It's not about pure engagement for other things. So to take it beyond the talkback then, do you think that's also true for the work itself? We've been focusing a lot on talkbacks, but here is that conversation separate from the talkback situation. You mean programming? Well, my experience, not so much. In my experience, programming has more to do with what's great for it. We want to produce and we think our audiences will be engaging. So I think it's a little tricky, but I think that's for audio talkbacks, not everywhere, but in my experience, have to do with the ultimate goal of staying in business. I'm congratulating the institution of getting more subscribers. And I think where that exists, we have to face it. It may not be the universal case, but it's hard to be, it's hard in no circumstances to be honest about the work. If somebody mentioned a 25 minute session, that's another clear, we don't want too much engagement if we've got 25 minutes. Didn't mean to bring everybody down. We just have to get out there. Why do we do talk about some in the first place? That was just one example. We need to be honest with the audience about what the purpose of it is, and then they'll be happy to go with this. But I mean, true, I'm a playwright myself, so there are times when it is really useful for me to know what they're thinking about, particularly if it's facilitated well. And then there's times when the play now is done. I'm glad to hear what you thought, but I'm no longer really working on it. So it would be unfair for the theatre then to say, well, it's really important for the playwright to hear what you have to say because you go back and make all these, no, I'm not. If they've got something else, they can have a conversation about the play and about their experience of the play, which is about deepening their own experience than about changing the work. So I think if we're clear about it, and then that is perfectly fine because the deeper relationship with the work will in fact lead to people coming back to buy the tickets. And that's not a bad thing. Also, I think the example that Michael gave is using that audience feedback session. It sounds like a terrific way to engage an audience and grow an audience. Right. And they're doing it in an appointment at work. You need the feedback. He's not doing it in the way that he was. My point is the audience taught that session in singing, I mean, careful, provoking an open and frank discussion about the quality of the work, even if it's not being used to develop that work, be used to develop the audience and the audience's engagement with the audience. Yes. Someone do I hand over? Hand over. With the artist present? Either way. Yeah, I think either way. I think definitely with members of the artistic staff present, it doesn't have to be in the play. The artist is also the actor. The director is the sectorist. There can be a whole lot of different ways. But I think from what I'm hearing, I can see that as a very useful tool and a way of, you know, of taking the active criticism into a whole different form of where we use this to support the artist. Yes. Well, I think Jacob's point about what's the purpose of the talk that is really good is it about simple audience engagement. I was just going to bring up an example of how the structure that was specifically about assuming excellence really means audience engagement and audience feedback. And, you know, when we do these things, it's very specific to the project as opposed to it's a bit better. So that's how we do the talk back. I personally really need to talk back. But what we did was we had an insert program survey. And at the end of the show, everybody kind of sits there stunned. And so, you know, I come out and say, okay, everybody here's your pens. Everybody fill this out. And then we give everybody wine while they're filling out their surveys. And nobody left. Nobody walked out without filling out a survey. And Bob Burke comes down. And one by one, people come in, they rush and they hand in their surveys so they think you don't have a one-on-one discussion with Bob. And what questions are on that survey were specifically geared towards what Bob needed to take this project to the next level of excellence to the buzzword of the day. And, you know, and we were kind of nervous about what our subscribers reaction would be because it was very obvious and very non-traditional. And some people loved it, of course. And the people who didn't, or they loved it when they thought about it firmly, they would write it into us because we also gave them an email way to give feedback as well. And they said, you know, thank you for challenging me by doing this piece. That is just an amazing piece of feedback to get from your audience and to get it repeatedly again and again and again from your input for base of subscribers. But I think that the real key question to talk about is what is the role that it plays in your process? Is it about developing the work? Is it about engaging with your audience so they'll give you money? Is it about some of the artist's needs? What's it about? We're not talking about any type of feedback you're giving because, you know, in psychology experience, what will happen sometimes, the researchers will look for the results they want. So as a theater company, you're looking at what the audience is saying. You're like, oh, you got a cheese pie. I like what you're saying. Rather than making 90% of the people said they really liked it or said they really hated it, but you get to that 5% of the people who said they were confused. It's like, how do you take all of the different things that you're giving and incorporate it back into the production? Kind of like the long lines of what you're saying. Michael? Once there's another thing that people don't think we can put on the road, really, we'll do conversations with the audience. You know, it's totally weird to leave them. And it's not like we're going to rewrite the show before we get to Detroit or something. But what we do is invite members of the community who are involved in the issue that we're going to show about so that it's a panel discussion about the show and about what about the issue. You know, if we're trying to perfect the audience, sometimes it can feel a little like it's all about us. You know, when you're doing it, just thank you for talking about us for 25 minutes. Goodbye, please. So you're really close to the show. You're a farmer and you're a scientist and you have all the people so we can talk about the issues that are in the show. Because it goes back to what we're talking about. Sometimes it's early in production. It is to affect the show. Sometimes it is just with the subscription theaters and stuff like that to improve the audience. But if you're trying to make the audience change, as people, you know, using the talk factor to expand the conversation, ask the show, think about, okay, now let's all go out and have a little capitalism. Kind of. Detroit is in the lobby. You know, just really being up the structure of what is it exactly we're trying to do and what does it affect them when I ask? It feels like the tougher question is who are you going to listen to to give you copious notes about the work? Who are you going to listen to to say, well, you've been doing this for five years and hasn't changed? It has to involve, I have to throw, who's going to give you the bad things to argue with this question than the audience? Because the audience, you can always let yourself off the hook. That's a little bit of where I was going to with that earlier question about if you surround yourself with people who get you, are you going to get to that? Maybe you will, maybe you won't. You know, when I go to action and I see shows there it's going to be very critical because they have an audience that has got a particular taste and when you're developing a show for that one and you're going to do their reaction, they didn't need you and you develop it and you're like, oh my god, sometimes we don't have that tougher conversation about who are you going to listen to? Yes? I've been doing a show called Talking Angels, Budapest, 1943. It's about a holocaust encounter. It's a true story, people wrote down what we call an experience of that sentence. I knew you for ten years and to promote an audience feedback over a span of ten years. And the relationship is my passion that started to do this thing and as I said in the speech of my colleagues, people, people who want to do this. But to attempt in my lifetime to do something was excellent. I'm just committed to one play. I said, what do they do a hundred years ago? People would do Julia until they were 60. Eleanor and Deuce did Julia at 60 because that's what she was known for and I thought I wanted to feel that in my own way. I wanted to attempt that. And the audience feedback if you are curious over ten years they have questions about the situation. They have questions about how could they focus for 17 months on these voices? They didn't have the words channeling at the time. And they go right to the core of why I did the thing. And anyone says, I don't care. I had orgasm on the stage. Sorry, I'm focused. So that is the carcass for me. I did the thing with a certain extent and the people that over the years gave me the feedback that in the end of the video I'll do it another ten years. And it frees me from the kind of guesswork that I should be hearing in the room or in the direction of the audience want. I think if you're doing something that's coming from that vibrational place and the audience people just look at you that's it. For me, audiences that are looking great partner and all kinds of things don't happen. You know, I mean and I'm not necessary to ask them to tell me about the show. But when I'm on tour I have top acts because it's a way to get them to talk to me more. They just saw me on stage I was just something the last couple I could act with performing up there. And the people just loved it that, oh now we can talk to you and then it's like they'll go tell people, oh there she is that's the one we're going to act with. So it is an audience that what Travis was saying about before he spoke away is that I think that it needs feedback from people and that can be there to believe from the audience. The audience is that other community that we're part of the community that I feel like is very, very important in terms of what to what they give. And I think people just appreciate a lot of it and appreciate it like it's like oh we don't have to talk back we just want to talk with you a little bit after the show. People love that, I just think my work that's how they love it. Then I might also attract layers of community that people that never go to the theater and all of a sudden Desmond Jones is doing whatever I do and they're like, oh my god go ahead sister they don't see theater and I feel that I stand there and I think that they're particularly included, I just feel like they have these other things in the department that however you want to cut it they should be treated with respect that's how we talk. It's like a label, you know and I always tell people if you like the show, tell your friends if you really like the show, mind your own business. They love that too. I've been thinking about what you were saying about like how do you figure out which voices to listen to. I don't think that's hard but I think what it comes down to is really personally as an artist as a playwright, you have to figure out who do you care most about? Are you finding that as an audience and just talking to them? Are you finding just talking to the print media and getting your things reviewed really really well and I think that really comes down to the core of the artists and that's how they have to figure out which voices are going to listen to and they have to figure out what they want what they want as artists. I've been thinking about this about a year ago and we started hearing from some folks and I can't remember any names, it's probably good some artistic directors who typically will wait until the show closes as someone was saying to Paul I think and then pull together kind of a cabinet that they have like maybe six people to meet with them together in person to tell them about the production as it were but I'm just wondering if there are others that have a practice, anybody in the room or maybe that you've heard of that might get us to where you're and what you're talking about. I don't know if this answers that directly but it seems to me that whether the conversation is with audience, fellow artists with our staff that were part of the institution that if we're going to better the conversation about excellence we also have to be willing to talk about failure and that's because otherwise it was really struck by what Paul said earlier you know I have an engagement conversation that I'm not going to learn so I would think as an industry and as parents were very unwilling to talk about yes I made a mistake when I decided this choice and then making a mistake is not it's not going to stop the world from working it's the step to getting to a greater level of excellence so wherever there's conversations I think this is amazing called Art of Fear made by two painters and it's applicable to any artist I think that's especially where it is and one of the theories of the authors who are two painters is that it's not in the product but in the leap from one project to another which you guys and I have so long to debrief after the play with some or all of the artists of this place but usually we're so busy running for the next project that I am going to do as much as I love to there's actually a new book out now specifically about where one of the examples is working on moving out and that in Chicago it was an absolute disaster but her ability to take in constructive criticism from those trusted advisors named Jennifer Tipton was what allowed her to go so between projects to that next level of excellence and actually turning around but only my learning from that at least I understand Part of what we do when I produce new work is we work both more with the team about how we move better especially with more really important because there's no process for each project with a new path as a producer and a team together not one designer might not be right for this project but it's creating that team which hopefully will re-imagine ultimately and excel at what we're trying to do and we fail at least 50% if not more of the time 70% of the time but that's also part of it and being okay to say we're going to reach far because the next time hopefully we'll be better if we work from that there's that attitude that we target every time we're standing too close I want to take two or four times this is following on Lisa I'm the producer and director at here art center in New York and we developed work over a long period of time with a whole four group of resident artists who sort of worked for two or three years on the project and what we're trying to do is create an atmosphere of peer exchange and feedback all through the course of the development of the project but we invite the audience during the process so for every reading for every work of progress there's a core group of peer artists who are coming and we utilize the of giving feedback and then it's and then what we try to do is instruct the artists to all along the way develop the project to invite the audience in so before, during and after the project is actually on stage they're each got red pages dedicated to the project so there's a lot of blogging there's there's technology aspect to it and then during the run of the show we're inviting conversations and we do something called cocktails in context where before the show Kristin and I will sit and talk with audience members so we're just talking about context about this work before they see the show and talk backs where there's really more like what you were talking about where we invite panelists who have some expertise one of the most successful talk backs we've had is about a show that has a very deep psychological underpinnings and it's a music theater piece but we brought in psychologists and some of them who work with abuse victims etc and it was a very deep and concentrated conversation with issues but it also brought out references to the work itself and then lastly it's like after they make the theater we send them a survey we want them to respond to live their experience at the theater and to the piece itself so it's a lot of work there's just no question but it is this kind of trying to train both the artists and the audience as they're building in the moment to just engage find their community engage in that community all the time 15 minutes break thank you all very much