 This panel is called Andromatergy in Leadership, and I'm just going to speak for a few moments about where the genesis where the inspiration came from for the panel, and then I'll introduce the panel so I have a brief discussion followed by a little bit of Q&A. We've got about an hour for the discussion, so we're going to make it light and lively. I wanted to begin this conference day with a discussion that's actually pretty close to my heart. For the past few years, I've been experiencing and getting opportunities for more and more leadership roles, and I realized very quickly that I was actively using a lot of my dramaturgical skills and qualities in that work. And particularly I'm talking about the act of listening carefully, of analyzing information, synthesizing information, and then articulating direction and interpretation to a group that allowed us to move forward. That's dramaturgical, and it also turned out to be leadership. So what I started to claim it as both, to the point where the way of talking about the impact of what I do as a dramaturg helps lead me to become the executive director of operative theater projects, which is a job I took up in November. And I was talking to folks who had MBAs, who had run companies for years, and it was the way that I spoke about leadership and the way I spoke about how I was interested in meeting the team and the organization, which was dramaturgical, that was really appealing to the board chairs and the people on the search committee. And I really appreciated that that was part of how I was speaking about that and not the part about appeal to people. So I wanted to have that discussion here, because I really started to recognize the power of what we do as leadership and the leadership impact we can have. I'm not sure whether we properly explored it or claimed it necessarily that way. And so I wanted to have this conversation today. One of the interesting tensions I discovered too when it is, a lot of times the way we speak about what we do as dramaturgs is that it's a support function. It's a support function for supporting. And there's sometimes a tension between thinking about supporting and thinking about leading. But they actually have a lot more in common than I think we think. So those are some of the things that occur to me and I'm really excited to speak today with these wonderful folks that are with me. You'll be able to read all of your bios in great detail in your packages. So I'm just going to speak a little bit, I think some of the high points. We have Alana Bronsky and Alana teaches at Boston University here and is also the dramaturg at Company One. Director of Newark. Yes, director of Newark and there's a whole roster of dramaturgs at Company One as well. The next to her is Ed Sobel, who recently took up the head of playwright at Temple University. And next to me is Mark White, a leader in our field of over 35 years experience and a lot of significant work both within universities and colleges and also at regional theaters and on a Broadway as well. And also an alumni leader of LMDA as well. So welcome to Alana and Mark. So one of the questions I wanted to ask you guys is what are the valuable qualities that you feel that are dramaturgical or that you recognize as dramaturgical that you apply in leadership roles within your organization but that you've seen applied by other people. Are there quality skills, ego? That feels like leadership that you've discovered. You want to take that one? Ed? It's working great, yeah. Well first, thank you for inviting me to be part of this. I have to confess that I said yes before. I knew that I was going to be sitting next to these two really fascinating accomplished people. That's true. So, and then when I learned that it became clear that, I mean, clearly the invitation to me was intended to pretty assert the function of particularly lowering the bar. Which, and I'm intensive to fill that role completely. So I was thinking about, I was re-reading your chapter on the line. Because Liz Angleman says that the fine art of preparing for what you're going to is the entire purpose of Plain Rise. So I was re-reading the chapter from your book on the plane. I was using it about leadership. And then I found myself using about the other thing that I used about Plain Rise. And we're being one street, right? So I know there's a lot of impressionable kids watching how I do this. So I wouldn't mean the thing that I was using about. But we have a group full of journal charts, and I'm sure you're all right at reading the subtext. And so you know exactly what I'm talking about. So I'm using those two things, and then I start putting them together in my head. So yeah, naturally. So I came up with, it's a short Plain Rise, so I only have 12 things. So 12, and I also don't claim to be an expert on either of these things. So it's just points of convergence, not advice. Just points of convergence between leadership and the other thing that I spent time thinking about. So you're there. I got on that. So first of all, is that if you're doing it alone, it's an entirely different activity. So you need the willing participation to do it, right? Oh, see there. If you're selfish about it, eventually people won't want to do it with you. For this next one, I actually owe it to Dex and Morgan to Dex. Ten years ago I think you called out for it, right? On a similar topic, talked about leadership as in leading like a shepherd. And so you can do it from on top. But there are a lot of other positions from which you can do it. And it's particularly rewarded sometimes to do it from behind. Another observation, you know, almost everyone thinks that they are better at it than they actually are. And genuine attempts to improve will almost always be met with appreciation. If you pay attention to other people's needs and you can provide them with satisfaction, then you'll be loved and desired. The more enthusiasm you can generate in the people around you, the better it gets. And it's good to do it with passion, but not addiction. You can learn something by watching other people do it, if they'll let you. But ultimately to really get it, you kind of have to just do it yourself. I'm guessing it's clear by now that I'm talking about playing online chess, right? It's really good to try it when you're doing it. It's really good to try something new. Being inventive and creative is good. But if you try something too weird without warning, you're likely to get kicked out. If you remove barriers while you're doing it, you might actually produce something. And if you leave those barriers in place, which is fine, but you have to understand that then you're just having fun and not really benefiting future generations. I think more women should do it and they should not be shamed for doing so by anyone or for enjoying it. Last thing, so while it can be fun to talk about, doing it is better. And sometimes the people who make the most noise while they're doing it are just big favors. So you don't need to talk much to do it well. It's a little show. Is he an informant? Does anyone else want to talk about qualities or skills that contribute to leadership? I think that some of the stuff that we train up with as drummeters is naturally lined with leadership. So in my own practice, I am particularly interested in how, much like what you were talking about in terms of shattering, right? How to lead by making space for other people, right? How to lead by creating provocative questions that don't have predisposed endings, right? So if you're trying to lead people towards a predetermined goal, it can be like hurting cats. But if, through the active leadership, you can lead with the text or with collaborators, which is what can be discovered together, right? And that's a way more fruitful path than trying to push everybody towards the goal that you think is the right choice. Whereas you don't even be an eye finder when I'm in leadership positions. I don't know what we're talking about. I'm more interested in figuring out, you know, what's that journey about. And I think one of the other qualities of, I think, really good drummetry is the fearlessness of speaking truth to power. Do it generously, right? Not combatively. And I think speaking truth to power has to be at the center point of any model of leadership. We have to be able to ask the questions that are a little bit dangerous that maybe take us in a new direction we are expecting. That maybe provide an opportunity for leaving behind comfort and other models that have worked in the past towards the unknown. And those are the things that stood us in the rehearsal hall as well as an institutional reaction and public advocacy. I travel on the train, so I was like, this is granted. I must fly in the future. A couple things about leadership. It seems to me, years ago when I graduated from this place in New Haven, I came out thinking that I did want to be an officer, but there was no question that I had in my mind I wanted to be an artistic director or something. I did, no question. But I had in my mind that that meant that you, to be an artistic director, meant that you were ultimately the smartest person in the room. And along the way, I discovered that's not the case. That's not all the case. And you can't afford to be the smartest person in the room. You may be, but you can't afford to be the smartest person in the room. It will probably be echoing things that you all said. It seems to me some of the leadership skills are about, you must be able to inspire people. And it's not necessarily through what's up on that stage. The old model, thank God you got beyond this. The old model was the CEO model of, they would never think of hiring a dramaturg. And thank God you got beyond that with everybody from Andre Bishop moving from Playwrights Horizons to Lincoln Center, Oscar Eustace moving from the Mark Taper to Trinity Rep to the public. Let's not forget. We must invite her next year, for God's sakes, to your Janet Allen at the Indiana Rep. Really, really critical. This woman had a tremendous amount of say. Kurt B. out of the Seattle, and then Space, the late 80s. More recently, not Mandy Greenfield, for God's sakes, moving from a theater club to a theater festival. These are all great examples of this model of the past, of the board saying, oh, we have to have a director, be the artistic director. Well, no, no, no. The seasons can be picked by idea people. I used to say, those are my ideas on the stage. Three of those six are my ideas, and they're each worth $20,000 or more. If you are attending a dollar theater, I think I deserve a raise, because three of those six ideas are mine. So that's inspiration. Two, the great leaders I've seen make their staff members feel like heroes, periodically. Make them feel like heroes. What is appropriate? Really critical. Not just the actors on the stage. That's easy. Listening. Really important. Listen hard. To synthesize. Really important. Able to synthesize. By the way, Ed said this. There's an article that Vicky's written that's going to be in a mobless, extraordinary book. Don't forget to read this. This is fantastic for an article. Communication. Again, it's something that she talks about. This is really, really important. This is our gift for God's sake. And it doesn't just take the form of articles. Talking. Sometimes, Tim Blake Nelson, I worked with him at Seattle Rep. Sometimes, I wouldn't say anything in a rehearsal. And Tim would take me aside and say, why? You haven't said anything all rehearsal. You're like a neutron star. What the hell is wrong? And I'd say, this is what's wrong. And so communication that way is also equally powerful. A sense of history. A sense of short history and deep history. Perspective we can break. And last, putting oneself in a position of older ability. Again, you talk about this when I read your article. Oh my God, this huge collability. Can't tell you how to be kind of a nearly fire. Or ask to be in different places. In the 80s, I remember at the Guthrie Theater. I did some concerts, I don't know again. I brought this notion up of the idea of the man who shot Liberty Valley syndrome. As dramaters, I think I brought it up in the context of feeling sorry for myself. Or our feeling sorry for ourselves. I don't know how many of you know the movie, this great John Ford movie classic. Jane Stewart with John Wayne. About a lawyer from east goes to this southwest town. Trying to bring along order and his laugh back. His liberty balance and his gang says, oh, get the hell out of here. Eastern. And John Wayne, of course, is the only one who can stop it. But in the end, the one too much for you has to stop in the shadows. Just like a dramaturist sometimes does. And at the time, I thought, and Jane Stewart in the end ends up going on. He faces it down. In the end, Jane Stewart ends up becoming a senator. And John Wayne, who kills Liberty Valley from the shadows, ends up a drunken cowboy. And then nobody. And that is how I felt sometimes as a dramaturist. A man in the shadows, a person in the shadows. And I've come a long way since then. I've said, you know, no, no, no, no. Stop that. Stop that. How about the other version of that? It's the person whose industry has stood up for liberty balance and said, I shall be the person of accountability. And I think that's leadership. Thank you very much. Thank you guys. And it's interesting, as Mark brought out, a few opportunities. Increasingly, when we look at what kind of leadership those dramaturists are taking up, artistic directorship is one that sees, like it makes a lot of sense that more people are finding their way to it. And I'm curious about because one of the things that I was interested in, too, and the article has an interview with a gentleman named Ben Henderson, who is a city counselor of the city of Edmonton. And he's a dramaturist. I wanted to find out from you what are the qualities of your political career that are dramaturgical. And I'm interested in, you know, there's the opportunities like artistic director, but are there other opportunities that we see, or new opportunities that we see that we go, I feel like dramaturists could provide some impact on leadership there and how might we do that and what should we be looking for, what should we be going after other than whatever we'd like. I want to talk about that. Okay, long. Okay, so one of the things that I think maybe in the past, dramaturgists felt was maybe isolation, or maybe disempowerment. And we don't have time for that anymore. Nor do we have the requirement that we have to be alone in a room or in a library doing research or waiting for somebody to invite us into a conversation. I am so passionate about LNDA's initiative over the last many years of the concept of dramaturg driven, right? That is how do you make the work that excites you? How do you make space for other artists whose work you love to get together? How do you curate? And so you can do that physically, right? You can find money and rent a space and get people together or whatever, or you can do it online. And really the brilliance of the Americans of Social Media is that it provides us a way to be really vocal and powerful leaders as dramaturgists in the American theater. Twitter is amazing. You know, I talked a lot, generally. I talked a lot to people when I was in physical proximity, though. Now I talk a lot on Twitter to people who I otherwise wouldn't be in conversation with, right? Like, for example, I feel like I always read Peter Merck's reviews in The Washington Post. I write to him. I thought he was an interesting guy. I felt like I could kind of get a sense of, like, what he was caring about in the scene in DC. But now I can talk to him on Twitter and get a conversation about work, right? We can talk about plays that have been performed there that he or he performed in Boston. I can get deeper into a conversation with him. Then I would ever have a chance to do what am I doing? You know, fly to DC and knock on his door? No. But Twitter gives us a chance. Not just there. There are lots of media, socially. They give us a chance to be a voice in the field, to stand up for what we believe in. And more importantly to me is to be a voice for inclusion, diversity, parity. If these are things that matter to you, what matters to you, right? Those are the things that matter to me. But what matters to you? What are you passionate about, aesthetically, socially, politically, in your art and in your work and in your life? You can actually have a platform to be a leader on those issues simply by opting in. And it's one of the things that I try and work with my students on, which is developing some fearlessness about being a leader on stuff you care about. You don't have to be a leader of an institution in order to have impact. You can be an independent human being who has impact with another group of human beings whether in proximity or not, right? Because suddenly we have a way to democratize that involvement and the voice of the artist. You don't ever have to wait for somebody to give you the entry point. You can take that step yourself. And to me, that is the most exciting development in American theater the last 10 years. If you simply look at what TCG has done, right? So they went from, I think, being an organization that was largely seen as sort of gatekeeping, right? Like for large institutions only. Through their development of their blog series and the TCG salons. There was some incredible conversation happening there that I don't know where that would have happened otherwise. Right? And because it's through TCG it gives it some legitimacy that it might not otherwise have had. And it's giving it shares for independent artists who maybe don't have institutional affiliations to have a voice in the things that matter to them. And to me, that's huge. And if me as dramaturgs can do better at advocating for ourselves what we care about and for our role in those, the way of making work that matters to us, then that's up again. Yeah, isn't that... I think there's... skills that we have. You know, one of the things I think that dramaturgs in that is identifying needs. Right? To look at a play today, this play is close to being. So, I think if one applies that notion to whatever setting one finds oneself, that part of what you're asking, whether it's a need in the field and you'll attempt to solve that need, that by its nature you're an active individual. I know just with the work that I've done with Stephen Mulford, it's been about saying here's something that I don't understand about the way that the field works. There's a different way of addressing that thing that I don't understand or that I perceive as a need. And so I think that if you do that, that's one way, whether you want to or not, you're meant to have serving in a kind of leadership role. Well, I think this is an interesting thing that's been raised by both Ed and Gilado. The space of five years, particularly, is touched upon something in no way. This is a space of five, six years. For many years, you go to a TCG conference and you sort of go there and wait for everyone to gather and define the need to go away and work on that in a way. And one does not need, really, it's a democratization, if you will, I don't know, some modern day potato build to write about that. I don't know, maybe there is somebody there in his room doing that. But that's exciting. That's liberating, in fact. I think you can really identify something very important. Is everyone back there okay without the mic? Because it is a bit frustrating, this might suggest. People on the live stream probably can't hear without the mic. I think if you stood up, though, you might be okay. Alright, we'll try that. I'm done with my formal questions and I wanted to make sure that we're able to open it up a little bit. This is another great thing about this mic. We've got about another half an hour and I want to open up the discussion here to start that discussion. Bob, you have something? Perhaps a just anecdotes along leadership in the theater today. I just want to second what Mark was saying about it. I remember these conferences in the early 90s and the ancients, among us, may remember what folks were like. When it was a lot of whining, the subtext was about the lack of power dramaturgs had within the institutions and within the rehearsal room. And I think you're quite right, we won't take that anymore. And the fact that this organization, for example, is flourishing that it has a wide range of practitioners of different genres of different generations, especially the fact that we have been able to, for the society or the community in general, have been able to effect change in such a way that we feel empowered within the room, welcomed within the room, and are generally considered by most, certainly people that I believe in, and that is something that you're celebrating and it is a change. And I want to give a very specific example of that if I may. And around the leadership issue too, I just finished working on the production of Alice to the Looking Fast and the Stratum Festival. An adaptation by the late James Rainey of Lewis Carroll's book. It was directed by Jillian Kiley, originally from Newfoundland, and now based in Ottawa, designed by Brett Gurekki from Edmonton. A lighting design by Kim Lee-Kertel, technical to our expression at the Amon Theatre's Raptor, which is a thousands house. It was a first craft. Choreography by Dan Petash, associate designer, Jennifer Goodman. And what the commonality there, of course, is, all of the power positions in the room are more women. And there were a few guys who were privileged to be part of that, and he is the production director of the Girls Composite. And what was remarkable to me was the nature of that collaboration, led by Jillian Kiley, who's an exceptional artist, and has her own kind of view of how it works creatively. But because it was women who largely, on all levels, created the show, past the 20th. The dynamic and the spirit in the room was totally different from what one usually expects at the Stratford Festival, which, don't forget, is 61 years old. The production model is based pretty, look-back in English. It comes from an English model of repertory theatre actor management. So that, you can imagine how alpha male that organization is. And so, this new way of approaching the creation of a work through the eyes of some of the older actors in the production, where they're used to being, you know, paraded or whatever, fully by an English man, in this new context. Again, for me, who's been around the block a few times, was truly liberated. And I think that we reflect on what we're talking about. Leadership can be done in different ways. In the most aggressive case, we found ways to enable all of us to give our best work in a different way and in a more professional way. Everybody who has made that happen, I think, now is the new normal. Yes, Lisa? Hi, I wanted to thank Ed for bringing up the surprisingly, because it's 2014, in 1972, issue of leadership and gender parity in the American theater. I am kind of thrilled that it's going on. I'm very bored that it's going on because I work for a woman in Atlanta, Georgia. Atlanta, Georgia has women all over corporate America. If you go to a corporate leadership conference, it's so feminine-heavy. You feel like you're in a different world. I'm going to sing about Karen Robinson, who's a woman and is the head of the theater department at Kennesaw. There's a woman who's the artistic director of theater. And when I venture out of Atlanta, I feel like that's good. In 2014, a lot of women through the break. I feel like when I venture out of Atlanta, I'm put in this very strange throwback to my childhood, when there weren't women in executive positions and I feel a lot of anger and I feel a lot of conversations about this should be happening, which is reminiscent of the whining conversations that we used to have in the early 90s. I feel myself, I don't really want to be part of all that. I've moved to a city where I don't really have to work with a culture where there aren't a lot of women, and that extends to the funding community, the corporate community, the arts leadership community, so many, the leadership of Atlanta. And I don't think we're particularly progressive town, which is my point. Atlanta is not the progressive, it's not Portland, it's not Seattle, it's not Minneapolis. We're progressive enough, but this is not the progressive center of America, and yet there are women all over leadership positions. So my challenge and my question for LNDA is how can we move the gender parity conversation forward faster? Because American theater is not leading this conversation. We're behind, from my advantage point in Atlanta, we're behind the more progressive elements at Coca-Cola and Home Depot, which are not the most progressive corporate cultures in the United States, but they have found a way to allow women to thrive, really thrive in executive leadership. So I throw out to us, and I wonder if the channel could address how can American theater jump forward? Because it feels like we're a little step, and there's a place for dramaturgs to lead this, but I'm not really sure what the strategy is. So the question is how can LNDA, or how can dramaturgs really allow for the conversation about gender parity to take a leap forward and how do we lead that leap? Does anyone want to talk a bit about that? Anyone have an answer for that? You go on. Okay, I don't have any answers, Lisa. I'm sorry. I think that the American theater is entirely retrograde on the whole. I think that we get comfortable with liberal politics and they're not really reflected in the means of making. We are not progressive as a field. And that's a real problem. And I think sometimes we get a little when we make small advances, right? And yet the entire conversation with the Kilroy's, with Parity Ray, with this notion of the pipeline, it is incredibly frustrating to still have this conversation in 2014. And yet also incredibly necessary. One of the things that we as dramaturgs can do is not let our exhaustion of the topic discourage us from being forceful about it. Right? This gets back to that notion of speaking truth to power. What are you doing in your institutions and with emerging artists to make space? I will say that at Company One we're a collective. So we operate as a collective staff and we are also highly dramaturgical. And one of the things that I've become I realized the other day that I've never worked for a woman. I just never have. I've worked for amazing men. I've had amazing, amazing mentors. But I've never worked for a woman. And right now I have a staff of incredible young women as dramaturgs with me at Company One. And one of my goals is to find spaces to allow them to be leaders. Because that's how we're going to change it. I think in some ways time will do some stuff that we haven't been able to do. Because more and more young women are coming up with the expectation that A2 should have a voice. So I think numbers are in our favor in some ways. I'm Julie Menorca. The generation ahead of me has done a great job of mentoring. I can say that. And so for me it comes up one of the other things I've noticed and I would encourage all of you especially those of you just entering the field to take a look at institutional structures in their theater and feel that in the last 20 years or so at least the size of those buildings is shocking. That the role of the long-term gap in jobs position has fallen into a position that is not actually a leadership position. We can be gap-wise and we can speak truth to power. I have certainly lost many jobs because I'm high. To those of you who are entering the field much less those of us who actually want to have an institutional position even though we don't feel lucky every day to actually look at the actual hierarchy of your institution and where you sit. And if you do not sit where you want to be sitting demand the mentorship whether you're 40, whether you're 20, whether you're 60 to actually find that person who can help you get to where you want to be so that you're not just screaming for me, you're not just screaming into Twitter or you know, yeah bring on your colleagues until everyone feels sad. That these are the things that we must do and we must actually seize that. I also jump in and suggest, I stand up I'm Jess and I work with One Year Lease and we're 14 years old and it's run by a woman and I've actually only worked in leadership roles with women in the theater so if we start to look at independent theater companies and bringing women into the model and not just use larger institutions I collaborate with an amazing director actually from Tata as well there's a collective called New Jersey Feelin and that has two women and one a man who is a clear man so it's yes to look at the institution but there are tons of independent companies that are working and have women at the company. Very quickly two things one, the history in many ways we don't like to talk about titles but in the early 80s this position started off in many ways about the literary manager and I do as a death trap you needed to be called a drawlature because if you were called a literary manager there was no power there you insist about being called a drawlature and then at a certain point we began to understand how you needed to have the title director of something in front of that because that was understood as well that was the more producerial position and indeed if you look around the country the people who were going to end up being considered for artistic director positions I mean Mandy Greenfield is a perfect example she functioned as a drawlature there are other people who functioned as a drawlature became directors directors of something or producers of something those are the people who ultimately end up being biggest artistic directors those are the ones who get taken seriously that's what happens you have to understand that and second I think it fundamentally starts with again this is a gestation process this is an evolutionary process it starts, Christian Parker recently said this to a former student of mine it starts in the training grounds we have to start there in those institutions in the colleges we have to start training people to think that women should be producers should be artistic directors you should be thinking that way at that point you should grow up to be a literary director you should grow up to be a drawlature you should grow up to be an artistic director that's where you start and the classes you should be taking should be thinking in that direction totally that's the curriculum that's the format yeah I'm just going to go back to Edelman's playing sorry I wasn't next to you sorry I wasn't next to Edelman's playing but just what you were saying let's not just talk about it let's not talk I think in terms of your questions you should get some frustrating exhaustions so we can talk about it but I feel like what we can do each of us can do something about it not having to talk about it but having your drama turned posse all being women by choosing who we work with at our level and relationally we're making that change so when Bob goes into his rehearsal that's going to be the room that's how it happened I think about being in Texas and being in Texas and being like oh there are women in power but I don't feel like I'm in Texas I'm also working on making things we're doing it where they are so if you focus on where you are what you can reach out to and how you can make a change I feel like oh but I live in a big red state or I live in a place where no women can I just want to add one thing to that Liz which is that I think it's really important that every single person in this room regardless of whether you are a drama on your second day ever or you are like you've been doing it for a billion years every person in this room has the potential for leadership you simply have to choose to do it especially those of you who may be very early career and you're nervous or you think what do I have to add you have your own innate experience that is different from anyone else's you absolutely have something to add you have to be brave enough to take the risk to do it because it's not always going to work out but you have to be brave enough and I see Sydney and also you the other thing too since I have a throat the other thing too that I discovered is the level of preparedness that we have that we do a lot of research and a lot of analysis it is rare in terms of I'm sorry the comment I got and I'll be very specific about this particular job interview the comment I got is that I was very prepared when you meet everybody and the thing is that we can apply our minds to a range of things including accounting I guess that's true so no limits on the no limits on the subject matter or the potential for what we can learn Sydney and then well I think we're skirting around gender parents who are also and other people but certainly unfortunately I would say that women still are the go-to in most America so I know that Selisa's theater has done some stuff around adjusting recursal schedules and things like that that are more accommodating to people who have caregiving roles outside of their loving theater and I think that that's something that we really need to think about as a group not just in you know in institutional theater we have to think about in academia as well because quite frankly I realized I couldn't be at work eight hours a day then go home for an hour and then go back and direct for another three hours or four hours at night there was a great was Atlanta or Denver that we did mom and turkey Atlanta and maybe next year at the conference we should have another mom as her dean I'm going to let Selisa comment on that because I think she was a part of it and then we're going to go over here and when to Sydney's point I think all those things that happen around our institute are being family friendly which has led to enormous retention at the senior management level of people with profound skills who have kids men and women but that's led by our artistic director having a child and not wanting to be one of those parents who sees their kids and the second mom church was great and came up with a lot of really practical things that you can ask for that are not that sometimes people just have to buy them and you've been waiting for a while I'm Jenny I'm from Australia I just wanted to offer a little Australian perspective which you can disregard because I know we're from that America we're talking about we're talking about we have a bit more federal and state government funding for our institutions and our federal government body the Australia Council for the Outdoor and when I was talking to some people about this last night one of the main things they found that there are as Jess was saying a lot of women in the independent sectors lead but it's kind of like a ghetto and that's part of the problem is that you have a lot of women in the independent sectors they're not going up into the major performing arts board companies and the other thing was that looking at the number of artistic directors is great but who are the CEOs and again the number of women on boards and who are the chairs on the boards and there are a lot of there is a reasonable parity in Australia members of boards but not chairs of boards the chairs of boards are still up with men and again women's playwrights are often always the bridesmaid they're always in development but not reduced as much as men but I also just wanted to say in terms of mentorship I was really lucky to have some really great female mentors and one of the things they said to me which I think is kind of relevant is that everything I do is because of the person that came before me and to the person who comes after and I just kind of love it over here because it feels like just to piggyback on some of the things that we've been talking about I think another thing which I'm going to call it the elephant in the room is we also need to talk about racial parity thank you take a look around who's being represented, who's being invited to the table, who is here, who's not here especially in place of leadership it is both amazing to me and also a little appalling to me that sometimes I have been the first in a particular institution and we really need to work on in terms of mentoring who are we mentoring drama stars in color are we mentoring female drama stars in color are we mentoring our LGBTQ comrades like who are we mentoring and like I was actually saying everyone is invited to this table and that we need all these voices in order to be an institution of power and of leadership so anyway Dylan, so long Sarah Ted talk I think in 2010 about being the first follower is often a really great mark of leadership so that when there's something that you really are excited by following and doing it will bring a whole bunch of other people and for me I'm really comfortable being the second in my organization and I do feel that will be here as a second because Jill Kyle is actually the director where I work so following that leadership I see Brian in the video Thanks Brian, Brian of course to affirm one thing that holding positions isn't the only way to lead and I think in Canada anyway the mythology, the leadership or the regional theaters are in fact meaning the theatrical world is a mythology and it's a dying line and so when they're aspiring for those leadership positions it's an offense that you fight but that leadership can take other avenues and the likely lead can be the way you lead and Liz Engelman would be a classic example of that of leading through the life she leads in the theater and beyond and indeed Sarah in Canada would be another great example of that leading through a variety of positions and certainly not sometimes but not always at the head of organizations the thing I wanted to ask the panel to consider asking including Vicki is where do you weigh the equation of the cost and the reward of leadership and the other thing I would ask is what do you look for in identifying leaders that may follow you because this room I suspect is full of those people and it behooves us who have had the fortune to stand up and take it on to find those people and identify them for all the reasons that everyone I've been quiet for a little bit so I've already overshared but but I think part of it is massacrism that I think anybody can kind of lead when things don't help the real challenge of leadership is when things are going not so well and for whatever first reason I kind of enjoy that the challenge of walking to the room when things are not going well and trying to I suppose frankly again oversharing is probably more a reflection of my overall world view that I feel I don't really think about that again necessarily in terms of leadership but in terms of how I live my life I think one thing that those people up there have in common and a lot more people in the room would relate to Brian's comment about this too but being a leader is just the worst thing in the world because you're right away on the wrong path to being. It's really doing and those are the biggest bunch of doers I've ever seen and if you do and you do and you do and you do at the end you look back and say hey I was a leader but being a leader is dangerous territory to talk about because it almost always leads you maybe down the wrong path so to me the biggest thing that those people have in common with having had actually some time to observe fairly closely and certainly with Brian isn't the world's biggest doers you know Brian I'm going to a lot of Marshall certainly speak to this as well but I think and the reason I the reason I didn't call this Andromeda in leadership is because I'm not certain that we always set out to be leaders but we're interested in leadership or a sense of how a contribution and to me that's what it was about. I recognize the value of my I really recognize the value of my contribution as a dramaturg and for me the transition to a larger leadership role was about realizing that my interest was in questions and the big question for me is in the theater I'm not sure you know all over the world probably what is the what is the value of what we do and how do we articulate it and how do we bring more people to it and I realize that as a dramaturg I had a limited relationship at certain times with that question powerful relationship not diminishing it but a limited a limited connection with that so for me the desire to take on a leadership position in a regional theater was about engaging more more directly with some of those questions about investment and value and to try to change the conversation we're having there so for me it's about contribution and the desire to change things Mark Ryan I think you phrased a really great question and there you know and this goes to everybody you know and whatever phase you are it's not to you know you're 60 you're 60 it's not to delay I have a perfect example of this there was no doubt when I got through the back in 1989 and I went from Seattle Rep I left there because I decided that was a dead end I wanted to be I wanted to be an artistic director and I went to Seattle Rep and I thought okay I'm moving there and I demanded not just a dramaturg title but an artistic associate title and I had a big fight about that and some of the production users blessed them they said you know whatever you want we're going to give that we wonder who is it and that in my head meant that's the next step for being an artistic and I was there three years and something happened and like it's not yet I'm not I want more out of life I wanted to be a writer and out of nowhere Stan Boyle's wife and I worked with a couple of times became the dean of the Yale School of Drama I played right at Gromiter's department and I knew that I would have my summers off to write and so I could be I'm sure to run a program or two be a writer, be an editor be a polymath and then the summer go off and dig for fossils out of the west and be whoever that was and that killed effectively being an artistic director but that was okay and it was fine it was just fine and leadership became another thing and as I understand exactly what you're saying leadership can take other forms you know and you decide that's the person I can wake up to before the morning I've been on that a lot of speaking and I think we have time for just one more from me if you'll enter handouts I know one more from here super short answer to Brian to your questions what do I look for in the leaders of tomorrow point of view and voice do they use it right and why bother with this at all because it's a lot about and what you talked about love the theater and I love the artistry of it but I wake up in the morning trying to use it to make the world better alright so my version of what the better world is means that I can have that in that so that's why I do it even though it costs a lot sometimes and we have time for one more and it's so caring that your hand was up something that I noticed and maybe it's just because it's so obvious that something that I noticed is not really being discussed one-on-one leadership and playwrights that I have been led to push past my peers this is the end of the formal conversation but I know we'll talk about this all day long at our site visits and I want to thank Alana and Mark once again where you're going to meet your tour leaders and go on your adventures and the playwriting workshop is just in the Anson building which is just across from it and again a volunteer will take you there the regional dinners this evening are at various restaurants it's about everything easier for everybody so if you hit a bank machine that'll be very convenient have a great day thank you so much for starting here