 Hey, everybody, this is JSA TV, the newsroom for tech and telecom professionals. And JSA Radio, your voice for tech and telecom on iHeart Radio. I'm Jamie Scott of Cataya, and on behalf of my team here at JSA, welcome to our monthly virtual CEO roundtable. These monthly broadcasts lead us up to our onsite CEO roundtables at our executive networking event, the Telecom Exchange, or TEX. And new for 2019, we are now quarterly with our TEX events. So next one up is TEX Dallas. Just one month from now, that's a pop-up afternoon event, March 13th, where we're gonna be talking 5G to the edge. And then we're back in Hoboken for our ninth annual TEX New York in May 14th through the 15th. So go ahead and mark those calendars. More info at thetelecomexchange.com. So let's get started. An exciting topic today, an amazing lineup with my friends here. Can the internet break? We are talking network infrastructure needs, opportunities, and predictions. Again, we have a C-level roundup from four absolutely innovative companies joining us today, weighing in, Ms. Amy Marks, CEO of Exite Modular, Mr. Gil Santelis, CEO of NJFX, Nigel Bailiff, CEO of Aquacoms, and Vinay Magpal, president of InterGlobex. Guys, welcome, welcome. Such a great topic with such great thought leaders. Thanks for joining us. Let's go ahead and get started with introduction. So go ahead and tell our viewers a little bit about your companies and your unique position in the network infrastructure space. And I'm gonna go ahead and start with Gil. Great, thank you for having me, Jamie. So NJFX, as many of you are aware, is the US's first carrier neutral cable landing station campus. And we established it in 2015 as a place where subsea operators could safely land their subsea systems. We did it in a way that would allow for market opportunity for carrier neutrality, which really breeds a marketplace. So today, NJFX stands with three existing subsea systems live in the facility. It's the original two GGN networks that Tata developed back in 2004, which they bought from TE Subcom. Seabros has landed its capacity here at NJFX. Telcom Italia and Seaboard and Tata all have capacity on that Seabros cable. And we're also welcoming the Hofru system that will be joining us later this year. The last cable that I would mention is the Wally cable, which is due to come in sometime in 2020-2021, which is a very unique system. It's a system that's gonna interconnect Long Island with New Jersey, having the option to bypass New York City. Thank you, Gail. Nigel. Hi there, I'm Nigel Bailey from the CEO of Aquacombs. Aquacombs are an independent submarine cable developer, builder and operator. We have an existing cable from Long Island to the west of Ireland, followed through to Dublin, connected over to the UK and the rest of Europe by a highly reliable system that connects us to Wales. We're building three new cable systems this year. One is we're working with the consortium here, Team Hofru. Our portion of that we call America's Europe Connect 2. We're building a second cable across, which actually goes to Denmark from Gils Building and calls into Ireland along the way. We're also building across the Irish Sea, again, into the UK and across the North Sea, which runs from the northeast of England, Newcastle, up to Denmark. So we'll have this North Atlantic loop of brand new submarine cable facilities. We're a private company and we operate on a very neutral, carrier-neutral and operator and space-neutral basis. I'd love to hear about that carrier neutrality. Always a good thing. Vinay. Hi, everyone. I'm Vinay Nagpal, president of Interglobex. We're a global solutions and consultancy firm, primarily focused on the convergence of data centers, subsea fiber and terrestrial fiber. My background is primarily data centers and connectivity services. And as we have noticed, there's a natural convergence of data centers and subsea fiber taking place. And what that's leading to is ability to build an ecosystem where you have terrestrial fiber and potentially eyeball networks and CDN providers and SDN providers. IXPs, the internet exchange points, kind of co-located in a single place to build that ecosystem. And that's primarily what our firm is focused on. And talking building ecosystems, Aimee. Hi, my name is Aimee Mark from the CEO of Excite Modular. We are design builders of feeling concrete, modular, critical infrastructure building. So that's including cable landing stations, edge and micro data centers, as well as some larger data centers, TFE shelters and ILA hub. And we're really, I'm the woman on the panel and I own a construction company. So that's basically, you know, we're really on the infrastructure side. We've got the muscle on the infrastructure side on the drive side of the business. I'm also the chair of the working group for Suboptic on diversity and inclusion and a co-founder of the women in subsea. So I would say that probably sums up my company, but we build all over the world. Based out of here in New Jersey, we build everything in the United States and we ship everything out overseas and I think we've just been awarded our 33rd cable landing station in that space. And we're pretty proud of our prolific build program around the world. So really we have perspectives globally with Nigel across the pond and Vinay actually tuning in from India today with us in our East Coast, West Coast representation in North America. But to this topic, we're really talking about, you know, what happens when and if the internet doesn't work. Presently the internet is threatened by many of the legacy submarine cables that connect continents but are nearing the end of their life cycle. New cable installations desperately needed, particularly as the industry looks to data intensive next gen technological advances like 5G, IoT and AI that all require this support of immense bandwidth. Which brings me really to our first question here. How are these data intensive next gen technologies like 5G, IoT, basically all the headlines we see these days, how are they affecting the current cable conditions and installations? Vinay, would you like to kick this off? Sure, Jamie absolutely happy to do that. I mean, I spent the last few days in New Delhi and India, primarily at the capacity India went and then the data cloud and the recurring theme has been the amount of data being produced around us and the next gen technology such as artificial intelligence, internet of things, machine learning and what the impact of these technologies is to us and the industry. I think it's phenomenal if you think about it 90% of all the data that exists today has been created in the last two years. So if you think about it kind of what lies ahead for us is to me it's unconceivable in terms of where we are headed from a data growth perspective and these cutting edge technologies are only leading to more data generation and to support that there is newer technology whether it's increasing the number of fibers and terrestrial and subsea cable systems or having better optical systems to have higher capacity wavelength systems put together to give you an example, I mean the Maria cable that spans across from Spain to Virginia Beach when it was announced it was 160 terabits per second system. I say that when it was announced because today now it's already over 200 terabits per second system and that's the highest capacity to cross the Atlantic. So there's that phenomena taking place and then you have on the physical layer side the amount of fiber strand increasing on both the terrestrial and subsea side. So I think all of these kind of components are going hand in hand to support the additional data growth. All right and Nigel what are you saying from that subsea infrastructure side? Yeah I think the technologies themselves aren't they're driving demand so they're driving a volume demand and they're driving a slightly different specificity so they're saying that the mapping of submarine cable roots now on somewhere like the Atlantic which is the oldest market right the first case in 1866. They are much more resilient paths so what we now have is a cable going into Denmark a cable into Ireland, a cable into the UK, France, Spain and that's hundreds of kilometers between those landings. Previously there was a big concentration and a lot of the traffic went into the southern part of the UK and that Cornwall strip there all very very closely together but all very vulnerable to a similar event. If some event caused the cutting of one cable that might have cut several cables offshore so I think the fact that this is such an essential part of everyday life, everything every banking transaction, every social media post everything needs to use this infrastructure across oceans and underneath oceans it's changing the way it's deployed it's now deployed in a resilient basis people have multiple, use multiple cables they don't just have one of their own and maybe one of their friends they borrow so that the structure behind the industry has changed based upon the requirements and the requirements are you cannot be totally out there has to be the ability to pass this data. 5G, 5G increases massively the amount of capacity that's available to the end user but that will also flow through in terms of end users wanting to do access data thousands and hundreds of thousands of miles away instantaneously it's not just about the speed of the last mile it's about the ability to get hold of data from all over the world and concentrate it for a particular application. So I can see the edge side of things as well with IoT a lot of compute at the edge but a huge portion of this has to travel across the ocean so we're seeing bigger cables it's been able to point out constant drive to get more from the existing cables and new cables and always always always more still looking at 41% double in every two years 41% compound growth. Wow, Gil that's what you're seeing down in well township. So I would agree just returning from the submarine world conference in London yesterday many topics were discussed and obviously the most vulnerable part of a subsea system is that transition from the wet plant, getting to the SLTE and across and what we've done at NJFX support that in terms of providing a safe environment to transition your cable from an SLTE environment to not only one backup provider but lots of backup providers to provide that capillarity at the edge at the cable landing station where it can actually jump off across seven different terrestrial fiber systems getting back to that compute the computers where all the action really happens when it comes to taking that data, doing the mining for it and if you think about what's really growing the internet and growing this traffic it's the revolution of machine to machine. It's only a few years ago when all this traffic was about phone calls and faxes well today it's really machines trying to learn from each other about data points that are being created. Someone gave the example of Boeing landing a plane in Frankfurt and over a million parts are gonna communicate once that plane lands on how that seven hour flight did and they're gonna learn when the flight takes off again two hours later how to make sure that plane is ready again for takeoff and it will fly more efficiently. Race cars are having races at a certain speed beginning of the season and by the 10th race of the season they're going 20% faster. How? Because they're learning. All the points are being measured and being understood and that's an incredible amount of data that's being created and it's a data point that's not local any longer it's really an international data point. A car will race in Monaco it'll be studied in Switzerland it'll be computed in Ashburn, Virginia and then Fritsch goes back and forth. So it's a dynamic time for us as a civilization looking at how data affects how we interact with machines. And Amy on the dry side and construction are these technologies changing the way you build? Yeah, I think the gentlemen on this panel as they're saying things are getting more and more complex and the capacities are growing larger and larger and we're not talking about a couple of cables now and I think Nigel touched on it as well that finally just like the sister report pointed out I think that was written up a few years ago that really we have to look at diversity we need to start looking at better resiliency for these systems we need to understand how to have these we're looking at really a disaggregated distributed internet now we're not looking at these giant monolithic data centers although there's still some of those out there obviously and they will still be built as you want lower and lower latencies every time I pick up my phone and I wanna open up an app or every time I'm in an industrial some sort of piece of equipment or I want them in healthcare whatever that is, as Gil said all this information needs to go somewhere it needs to be traveling everywhere and it needs to be in the shortest amount of time especially if you're talking about real time and so that means the buildings that we're building on the infrastructure side are getting a little bit more and more complex so especially in some of these areas where there aren't necessarily data centers even anywhere close to where people are passing information so I think on the infrastructure side for us we're seeing unlike a couple of years ago or a few years ago people were projecting that the CLS will go away and will only please go directly to these big data centers that exist is actually really the opposite we're having more and more proposals for larger and larger cable landing stations that are hybrid cable landing stations and data centers or if there is a data center there we're looking at all the edge data centers that are gonna be surrounding themselves around those data centers in a very distributed format so I think the buildings are becoming more and more complex they're becoming more part of an ecosystem that's really just a part of a landing point so they're just integrated to lots of other different systems and I think that's the convergence discussion that Vinay and I have had in the past that if you think you could just put this in any old building any more like sort of the older developers used to do wherever there happened to be a building at that landing point those days are over that's like you were building at that point in hospitals like a day clinic and now we need to build hospitals that can actually do complex surgeries so I would make that analogy for what we're doing in the cable station and the data center side these are not the buildings of old if you will Yeah, yeah, not the buildings of old not the cables of old but just one quick question maybe I'll just direct this to Vinay as sort of an analyst of our space here Vinay, what is the current need for new cable systems? I mean, are we talking like we need to double the amount of systems that are in place currently because they're all about to good night or do we need only like half more or are we going to can the technology and you sort of talked about this in your first answer can technology extend the life cycles on existing cables? Are the new cables like Mireya how long will their life cycle be knowing that this exponential rate of bandwidth consumption is growing every day what are you seeing as current need for new? Yeah, so I think Nigel kind of touched upon this that the average age of a subsea cable is anywhere from 20 to 25 years many of the systems crossing the Atlantic that land in Long Island at the moment are nearing end of life and if you look at one of the before and after pictures of what the subsea landscape is gonna look like over the next five years it's very different from what it is at the moment and that's gonna be a combination of these newer systems being put in place and as you have the newer systems put in place of course they're gonna be leveraging the latest technology out there and many of these systems are also using what's called as an open access system like Mireya we talked about earlier so from that perspective you have and if you have an eight fiber pair system for example and you have the capacity divided up between a few players they independently can have different renders equipment at both the ends and they keep upgrading that equipment as the technology evolves so you have the lit capacity increasing there you have the dark fiber capacity in terms of more fiber strands packed in there but then also at the same time if you look at the major OTTs and also what I call as the new eight subsea companies like Nigel's and like Aquafarm and others they are investing pretty heavily into these new systems so I think from a trend perspective we'll see that continue and the hyperscalers and their investment will continue to evolve to give you an example the Mireya cable when it was put in place it was Microsoft, Facebook and Talsias and recently Talsias announced that Amazon AWS is taking one pair to go from Spain from Bilbao Spain to Virginia Beach and ultimately they're gonna connect their cloud platforms but the point being that most of the OTTs are trying to leverage these new systems and then deploy their own lit services technology and the latest equipment at both the ends to maximize the bandwidth. And in talking these new cable builds and Nigel and Bill I'll turn to you here what is the current status? What are the timelines? I mean we've been, have we been able to pick up speed in terms of new rollouts? I remember being part of Hibernia Network's five year process in building out their Hibernia Express cable and then Mireya comes along past that. Of course it helps to have OTT funding and backing. I think that cleared up a couple of years right there but still the process is so arduous of subsea builds. I mean you literally have boats crossing the Atlantic rolling out fiber, burying it as it gets closer to the shoreline. I mean are we still, there's so much to be done and it seems like there's a terrible urgency. Have timelines and technology made this all happen faster? Are we able to get to market faster? What's our current status here Nigel? There's a fairly standard time and you know the reason is you look at this you're making this, it's a complex product. It has fine as a human hair, fiber optics. It's carried in a protective tube. You have to secure supplies of copper and cable and oil based product polyethylene for insulation and then high tensile steel to protect this in the harsh marine environment. You're not making pieces this long. For have-through we're making a piece 7,900 kilometers long. 5,000 miles long. So in a factory we're wrapping all of these things together and joining them with perfect precision because this is gonna go three, 4,000 meters down on the seabed and has to stay there for 25 years. There's no way we can pop out every weekend and make sure it's all okay. It's buried on the bottom of the seabed. Liability engineering and the work that companies like Subcom have done over the years to make this process efficient still does take a long, long time. So you're talking about minimum of about nine months of manufacturing process. And then if you come back from manufacturing you have to survey the seabed. You have to send a ship. It's going to map every meter of the seabed all the way down to the bottom to make sure you're not putting the cable in a hazardous place. And prior to that, you have to go and talk to governments. We all know exciting governments are at the moment with both sides of the Atlantic having all kinds of fun on a daily basis. But you have to talk to governments, to military, to landowners and you have to get permits and permissions to be able to even start the survey. So actually, you know what? It's pretty tough to try and build anything in less than two years if it's more than 2,000 or 3,000 kilometers long. And I would say if you get all of your economics right all of your financing right and you can sign on the dotted line to say, please go and build me this you're still talking two years for an Atlantic cable and a couple of hundred million dollars, right? It's not a simple job. You're not just, you know doing a very short piece of activity in a particular jurisdiction. Multiple governments, parts of the sea that have no government that's interested in itself because there's lots of other things down there, oil, pipelines, et cetera. So there's a big, big negotiation. I mean, we specialize in this kind of development and I have many of my teams specialized in this for 20 years there's still a big mechanical activity. And so you know, five years, yes if you're having, you know to go through a financial justification but even if you had the money in your hand now and you dropped it on the floor or in the reception of a subcom you'd be looking at a couple of years to get across the Atlantic. And then you end up with this in the water which will last physically for about 25 years but has an economic life of about 15. One of the reasons is a lot of building at the moment people seeing a lot of building of new cables and indeed have through AC2 which is gonna land in, you know Gil's building about, you know week or so into September of this year and over into Denmark into a building supplied by somebody else on the panel where he'd read then the, you know even doing all that gets you eight, 10 however many fiber pairs. We're doing that because 15 years ago 16, 17 years ago a whole host of people built a whole load of cables at the same time and they're all coming up for retirement at the same time. So if you look at GTT express if you have any express cable but bought by GTT AC1 which is our cable into Ireland then the cable, this cable which is have through Maria Donant into France maybe some other cables that are gonna run down from maybe Northern Eastern Seaboard down into sort of the France, Spain area you know, all of those things are replacing 10, 11, 12 cables that are all pretty much going to come to retirement at the same time but we've phased it now a little bit and I think what will happen is that probably cooks with the demand for five to eight years so then in a few more years we'll start another project put another one in we'll get into a smaller recycle we'll be doing a new cable every four or five years we'll get into a smoother flow much like other parts of the world so we're really reaping what happened 15 years ago but we're doing it more cautiously, carefully and with private capital sometimes and not just carriers combining together to build these things. Thank you very much. Can I interject Jamie? Just the one thing that I heard I heard Jamie ask but I didn't hear sort of maybe I'm reading subtitles potentially it sounds to me and I know you're not this person on the panel but it sounds to me like I don't think we talk in our industry enough about okay great, so you've held up a cable and you said maybe you've maxed out on like how quickly we can get these cables produced and I'll put that aside for a minute because I'm not a cable expert as I always say but I do think what we are missing in the industry is sitting around and collaborating better understanding how to shorten some of these cycles because of inefficiencies in working together with collaborating with the groups that are important. So as an example, like I last show we were at not London but the one before a PTC or who knows whichever show we were happened to be at I watched 10 Pressies wrote the average times for permitting. And you know some of them were very short I think one of my previous clients or one of our clients at Seaborn I think it was like 235 days, let's say I'm just making a guess and some other guys had on their 500 and something days and I actually walked up the Kent afterwards and said why is that? Like why are some of these so dramatically different? And he said, well, some of the people at the top of the list actually are better at answering and being more responsible with the answers to the questions that people are answering them and some of them are not. So if you're talking about a difference of 250 days and all that took was to potentially be a little bit better at answering questions and getting being responsive and collaborating amongst probably five different groups in the consortium for 12 different groups or whatever that is. The one thing I really don't ever see us doing in this industry is something almost called like Kaizan when you look at manufacturing, right? And Toyota just in time, they do something called Kaizan. They look at where the inefficiencies are and they get a cross functional team together that have no skin in the game for whatever the project is on. And we talk about, all right, where are the bottlenecks? How can we potentially shrink some of these? Where could we gain some concurrency? And we're not, in my opinion, I'm not a part of it but I certainly don't hear about them happening. No one's having these kinds of smart conversations at least across the industry. They're just kind of saying like, look, the best, by the way, I would call you well some of the best of the best Nigel. You're probably able to cut times better than anybody but not everybody is your team. So we're not really focusing on how we can do better procurement methodologies, how we can do activities amongst each other that are just better, right? And I feel like if you're talking about what we're gonna need for these new systems, if you don't address that, we're just gonna keep building the same old way we built them and it's not really that efficient. If I could jump in before we lose time, one of the things that we do with NJFX is help with that process by having spare boards available, getting ahead of the curve and then working with folks in other locations like Virginia Beach, like Jack Knapp. And what I would leave you with is subsea cables, think of, people think of a mass crossing the Atlantic Ocean Pacific. There's a huge need in the US to have a cable go along the East Coast. Work with existing sites, develop some new sites, get the permitting done quickly, but there's a crisis going on in the United States with getting traffic up and down the East Coast. Those systems were built 20 years ago also. We took them for granted every day but subsea for stuning is gonna be a huge initiative going forward. You gotta connect, you gotta connect with it. That's true because I think, it goes right on the money then because you're trying to get, you're trying to get resilience and get resilient points as well as, you know, new big trans oceanics. But just to address Amy's point there, I mean, there are some things going on and, you know, occasionally Kent's been part of them. The ICPC run some operations. One of the issues here is that those activities are, where commercial organizations are engaging with government. And, you know, a lot of the process is defined by government. I think you're right in a way that we don't form up into collaborative teams quickly and well enough. And that was a skill we had in the industry back in the old consortium days, funny enough. You rarely hear me talking about how good it was in the consortium days. Frankly, people in our industry could get together. We've actually got a bigger industry than we ever used to have, you know, a lot bigger. So it's getting those models right so that the economic and management model of how to construct a cable is there. It should be the easiest in the world. Most of the time it's like critical infrastructure for a nation. So you'd think that many nations would make it easy, some do, right? And I'm not laying any political angle here, but you know, Denmark, you basically just turn up and say, as long as everybody's happy from a marine environmental perspective, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, you can build a cable. And it costs you like $35,000 or something to get a license to land a cable. And in other countries in the world, and there are some difficult countries, and one of them is the country that, you know, three of you guys are sitting in there, well, apart from me and Vinay, but the US is quite a complex place to do business because you have a devolved government, you have, you know, lots of different organizations that need to have their say. And there's just a friction to getting all of those people lined up. It's a process, you know, how long it takes. I would say now, you know, if you were to ask somebody like Kent, he'd probably say it's about a year. And that's way better than it was going back to, I think the system you're talking about and he puts on his slide, which was about seven years ago when it was 695 days. So, you know, that's improved, but there are still hoops to jump through. And it's not really a mechanical kaizen that you can apply to because it's about influencing politicians sometimes and also certainly influencing a vast series of government departments. Well, I think that's why ICPC is so important, right? So those types of organizations or sub-optics, you know, working group on new technologies where we have cross, you know, communication amongst governments as well as all the industry players that can really come together on technology, you know, with Elizabeth's group out there. We need those, but I keep feeling like we're not doing enough to say, you know, okay, so these are the things we can't change. What are the things we can change, right? There are obviously things you're never going to be able to change with government. But like, what are the things you're going to be able or less so with government? What are the things in some of those, you know, four-year, three-year, two-year periods? What are the things we could change? And I rarely hear people talking about some of those. That's all I'm saying. All right, now, and this is the- I think I'm just going to add to that what Gil was talking about earlier in terms of the need of that festoon cable, I completely agree with Gil. We've had that conversation before as well, especially going up and down the East Coast, right? And the Wally cable Gil was referring to earlier, which is going to go from 1025 connect to NGFX. This is a sample of that cable. This is a Hexatronic 96 pair, 192 strand cable as an unrepeated system. So at that point with that type of capacity in the water, you're talking about 192 strands of fiber, you know, as an unrepeated system. So you're selling more of that dark capacity. And so I think there is that clearly that opportunity for deploying that, you know, even for a festoon cable that Gil was talking about, clearly connecting once the Wally cable is done, I think it's a matter of time before, from wall to Virginia Beach, there's a festoon cable that gets built. And to agree with you from Virginia Beach going down to Florida is the next Mach 2. If you look at the US terrestrial networks, we've got a log jam. Every carrier is sitting on the same exact right of way. To get across the United States or political system says, you got to get in the federal highway. Well, guess where every cable operator has their cable sitting on I-95, coming up from New York all the way down to Miami. So a festoon cable, the only relief we're gonna get and working collaborating with Virginia Beach, 1025, perhaps Jacknap, perhaps Miami, we can solve this issue and repurpose the landing stations to not just be landing cables across the Atlantic, but also along our coast. The same thing will happen on the West Coast too. The best right of ways we have are along the ocean and getting these hubs to agree to collaborate with our government ahead of time and put in assets in advance will allow a faster install cycle. Well, what about Hill? I mean, like look, the big dog, the big elephant in the room, right? We're talking about no pun intended, Africa. Like if we don't have this process down, when you need, I don't know, when you're talking about 50 stations at least or something like that, you know, 100 stations that are probably gonna end up being there with a bunch of data centers and all kinds of etched stuff and also big data centers. You know, if you don't have the process down well, how are we going to deploy in underdeveloped markets that actually need this infrastructure as well? So you're talking about very involved places in the US. We've got, I think we won our 17th job in the Pacific Islands. I can tell you, like when we built for something like cat food versus like when we're somewhere less, I would say like, developed in Europe, this process has to work really well. And like, I actually think, you know, you said it best Nigel, sometimes in those places it's much easier just because people, the more complexity people've seen in the past, they make, they look for risk instead of solutions sometimes. And we haven't been very good in this industry yet coming up with some collaborative solutions that can be repeated, right? Right, and there's no doubt that we have a lot to learn from our friends over in Norway, how we can streamline our conversations, get to action, get to mindful rollouts. Time is of the essence. That is certainly something I'm hearing from you guys and diversity is required. So you need to start getting building quickly. So one last thing, I know time is running out here, but I did promise our audience predictions. So I'd like to go around the horn and ask you to all and give a couple of words. Only a couple of words, but what predictions can you make for the future of the internet and our network infrastructure? Are we in good shape here or will the internet really be breaking anytime soon? So predictions, and I'll start with my friend, Gil. So unless we start being honest with ourselves on how these networks really work, we're gonna have massive outages. I was in London and I was with a carrier who's very sophisticated, who thought all his capacity was diverse, looked at his map, it all came through Long Island, through New York City. We need to be transparent. We need to be honest with ourselves. We've got to explain to customers, your network is not diverse. Here's how it works. I've seen a lot of those networks. I hear you, Vinay. I would say that Amy, this is gonna sound familiar. That over the next few years, there's gonna be a catastrophic outage at a cable landing station unless, look at the reaction from Amy, unless there are some stringent rules and policies put in place for security of these landing stations that exist. And also, I think we touched a little bit upon earlier upon in terms of, when we were talking about the complexity of going up and down the East Coast corridor and looking at how we can potentially replace some of the older system. Well, as it turns out, it's much easier to go in the water versus to go start digging up roads again. But also those older systems are much smaller fiber count. On the terrestrial fiber side, now we're talking about 6,912 strands of fiber. This is one of the first, almost 7,000 strands of fiber cable made in the world. So I think there'll be more bigger fiber count cables built in and the newer systems will be deployed both on the terrestrial and on the fiber side, on the subsea side. Amy? I think both Gil and Vinay, I love the prediction that we talked about at Tech LA. I think I'll stay a little more positive for a minute because I think Gil, you're right as well. But I think what you're going to see is actually new methodologies to actually get some of these cables done. And what I mean by that are new processes in order to collaborate with others. I think you're gonna see a lot of new players come into the space. I think just like the OTTs came into the space, we will see others, we'll see some other big dogs. And I think you'll see in the supply chain partnerships here some pretty interesting marriages emerging and it will be to the same old people that just aren't gonna be doing things differently. So I think you'll see a lot of inputs of new players and new partnerships and new technologies. And I think the last thing I'll say is you'll see some stringent standards and specifications that have to do with diversity, redundancy and hardening of our buildings to start protecting, at least on the dry side of the business. I call it the forgotten infrastructure. I think you'll see that because we'll have some issues. I really hope so. Nigel, do you agree? Absolutely, and I think the thing that tells you that you have to have diversity is if that cable that Vinay holds up, one guy with a backhoe takes that out, that's 6,900 people who are screaming up and down. And so there has to be two routes. There has to be two, one is non and two is one, that's the rule. And frankly, we plan on the basis of losing a landing station, but we plan on the basis of also building it sufficiently. So that's a once in a thousand year event of a meteorite landing on top of it that nobody can predict. Not, we assume that, okay, don't worry, some flaky generator will be fine. So we plan the Rolls Royce, but we also plan the what if it goes away. So resilience, diversity, all of those things, security absolutely. And that's been shown all over the world that these places are fairly vulnerable places. Yeah, definitely hope for the best, but plan for the worst. Thank you guys for your views on the internet and its network infrastructure needs, opportunities and predictions. Again, our all-star panelists, Amy Marks, Excite Modular, Gil Santolis, NJFX, Nigel Bailiff, AquaComs, and Vinay Nackle, Interglobex. Viewers, thank you for tuning in. And if you liked today's content, which I, how can you not? This was amazing. Come here, our CEO roundtables live. Again, telecom exchange now quarterly starting next month in Dallas. Go ahead and check us out. We are trying to fill our C-level speakers now. So check us out at btelecomexchange.com and to feature your thought leader here next time on our monthly virtual CEO roundtables, PR at jsa.net. That's it for this Friday. Thanks for tuning in to JSA TV. Until our next time, happy networking.