 I just started the webinar is 305 on my clock and it's being recorded so I don't, you know, there are no attendees yet, but there may be. So that's why I was chair. That's kind of chair. Oh, maybe she can run the meeting today and then we could choose a chair for the next meeting. If she's the vice chair sure I wasn't sure that she was so that's great. Oh, good. Hi, Karen. You're muted. Hi. Did I miss something. No, just. So we were saying that I current that I guess to your vice chair so you know, Carrie has resigned so as vice chair you'll have to run the meeting today. And then at the next meeting or for today we can decide on having either a temporary chair or a new chair. But, you know, there is no chair right now so the vice chair now serves as chair. Thank you. Could you take over slot of the things that you read as chair because I'm here totally without any of those things that are always read. I'm kind of stumped, or I mean, you can coach me through it. You're in Hawaii, right. There's wet from swimming in the ocean. Well, yeah, I think most of it is just announcing that the hearings are so we have it's 306 you have four minutes before we can open a hearing is just announcing that we're opening these hearings. I can share the screen and just reading the legal ad, you know, saying that it's being held over zoom and, you know, public participation is held remotely. I think that's, you know, that's pretty sufficient. And then just asking, you know, applicants to make their presentation and then, you know, just manners the comments. Right now there's only one attendee in the meeting. And so we have to wait for 310. And just for everyone to know, you know, that right there's two public hearings today and then the public meeting will continue with discussion of the expansion of the district. And any other anticipated topics but that's that's the agenda for today. And I think election of officers if we, and that can also be scheduled for next time as well so I think that's something that needs to be on the agenda for future meeting. So Nate, if you bring up your screen Karen is then able to read the performer perform the formal function as Karen that's good with you. That would be great. All right. And I can share I'll see I can share my screen so I have all the material downloaded for the applications and I can walk through that or adapt and kind of a I guess we have two minutes to to wait, just in case there's anyone else who read the legal add in. So what's the date of that photograph that you've got behind you of the town hall. Two minutes. Yeah, you know, I don't know exactly. It probably has it actually on the or my name is covering it but. Yeah, it's, well, this, this horse, this, this cuts in me on the, on the left hand side there of Main Street. Right and the entrance has a change. Yeah, so it's, it's, it looks, it looks old. It does I yeah this has been my background for a while so you don't have to see my bedroom. I always build in the 1880s. Yeah, yeah, I think so yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this is, you know, Yeah, they added the, the right in the corner here they added the, they changed the landing for the William statue and so this that happened shortly after so this looks like it could be before that so. You know, oh yeah. Right at the corner you mean. Yeah. You see there's one hand Chris, you can, you're, you can unmute yourself here, you can speak. You have to, I can unmute you. Chris, you, you're, you're an attendee twice. I don't know if you're on a phone and a computer but there's a really bad echo. Yeah, my colleague as well. We can't. You weren't really audible. I still there as an attendee as one screen. All right, so it's 310 I can share my screen and we can up off the, the, the lower my hand or my share screen. Oh, that's funny. Yeah, if you, you can just read the legal ad Karen, if that's visible. Am I unmuted. Yes. Yeah, we can hear you. Right. So it's 310 and I'm opening the meeting for the local historic commission Lincoln sunset local historic commission in in cordon in accordance with MGI chapter 40 C and the general bylaws of the town of Amherst. The commission will hold a public hearing on Tuesday, January 3 2023 at 310 to consider the following applications for a certificate of appropriateness. The public hearing will be conducted virtually. Yeah, I zoom. Yeah, by zoom to join the meeting via telephone. Or you or you can join virtually by telephone and enter the webinar ID when prompted a hyperlink to the hearing will be posted on the town's online calendar. And after the following one 17 amity street Donald Fisher and Susan has requested demolish attached one car garage and replace with a new garage that is wider has new doors siding windows trim and a dormit roof in back and in front. Main Street 14 B to 28 when Chen requests to remove the transom and picture window and replace with new windows. Yeah. So, Yeah, thanks, Karen. I know Chris from is here representing 117 Amity Street. So I'm going to promote Chris to you do a panelist so that allows you to speak freely and then also share your screen if you'd like. Participation. Can you hear me. Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay, am I am I visible. No. There we go. That should be it. Yeah, I can see me. Okay. What can I help you with. Well, can you describe the project on 117 Amity Street so we, you know, usually we ask the applicant to make a presentation and describe what's, you know, what's changing. We do have the plan set. Okay. That's my next question. If you have all the information in front of you. The, we are basically making the garage that is existing, tearing it all out and making it three feet wider. It has a broken up slab. It probably has a 1927 foundation. It's not up to current code. So we're putting in a new foundation foundation wall and new slab and then a, it's called the bonus room up above. It's basically like a yoga room exercise room. And it connects to their bedroom. And it has a balcony on the side with the egress door. New garage, new garage doors. Pretty much a new door to new doors. For one going out onto the balcony and one at the ground level on the side. There's two dormers one facing the front and one facing the rear. The rear has two windows. And if you don't have it on your copy, there's been a third one added to the front. If that dormer itself goes all the way to the left up against the house instead of a space between the two. On the front or just a front and back or just on the front. Yeah, they wanted to have more light. It's on the front. The front drawing shows, I think you have it up here. It shows it's going, it's got the three small windows in it. And the rear drawing has two in the back. Okay. So the, this is first called them. So the, what we're looking at now is what you intend. Right. This is proposed. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And then what has what is not on that plan is on the upper right hand corner, the gable and replacing these windows. Yes, that bank of windows, the big one in the middle is now a man door. It has a 42. Right. There it is a 42 by 10 foot. Just a deck, a setting back, and then two other small windows beside it. And that's just merely for them to as they're exercising set outside and another means of egress out on that end of the building. So I think I saw Haydenville would working on one drawing and can riddle on the first so I gather them that this is a subsequent feature that has been proposed by the contractor. Yes. Yes. That would be us. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, we are the contractor we were we propose that because they were still wanting more light. And they were just out of room to put more light other than that gable. Then I've requested information on the windows from Pella are they actually egress windows and no they were not. And so that's why the door came into the side with the balcony for an egress for secondary means of egress because it is on the second floor and the far end. And the stairway is in the middle of the house. So it's put itself quite within a reasonable distance of requiring a secondary means of the egress. As a bad. The added doorway is merely a, a, a hope that I don't have any trouble with egress. Yeah, because my windows are not. So here's, you know, the, the sort of the commissioner of this prop, this property is, you know, here's a diagram showing the existing garage will, which will be demolished it's also within the rear setback so it's also going to the zoning board of appeals, or has been to have this to allow this to happen. So it's, you know, it has this approval and then there's a demolition request for the as well for the store for commission and then zoning board of appeals approval acquired. Yeah. And so here's the plans that were submitted, showing you know the wider garage. Yeah. New footprint and then this is the interior layout. Yeah. That keeps going down so here's existing. Everyone to see. You know, there's some transom windows, you know, the garage door here. And then the proposed is. What keeps going down here. We'll just get to. Yeah, this is without the without. Yeah, that's your proposed floor plan. Upstairs. Yeah, and there's your exterior views. Yeah. Yeah, it has the sighting. The only portion of this garage in the existing state. It has a clabbered sighting, horizontal clabbered sighting on the gable. And the world would be the backside of the house. Yeah. Otherwise the front is all Cedar shakes. And everything else on the front is Cedar shakes. Yeah. Yeah, I thought I had more pictures downloaded. So here's existing. Right. Yeah. Yep. And. The balcony is going to be on the side or on the back side. Yeah. You're looking at that photo right there. It's on the right hand side. Okay. And here's the back of the house just showing, you know, here's where the back of the garage now. Yes. In that dormer shape that is the addition, what they called in the. Half of the half a floor. I think is what it was called in the last remodel. Yeah. Data of that was when that was done. I think with 78, I think they said there's something. Right. Which is behind here, this front entry. So. That's, this is not, this is not changing. No, no, only, only right above the garage doors themselves. Nothing, no other portion of the house is changing just the garage footprint and the, the size of the dormers on the front. Okay. Yeah, so, yeah. All right. The windows that are. In that photo that are on the house side of the garage door. Those were just recently replaced by us. About three years ago, I think we ended up getting approval for you guys. And I think it was during, right? It was before COVID. We had to wait for a September meeting. And we got approval for those. They're the same series. And same style. That was put in before. I thought I recognized this. Yeah, this, right. This came in 20, was it 20, 20, maybe? In 2019, it was here. So here are the plans again, I'm just going to go on later. I think this is a nice view of the garage. It's being removed. And then here it, you know, this first page has the. Where is that? Was it. The revised plans. Too many plans here. And so, you know, for the commission, it's, you know, it's basically a whole new construction of the garage. Yeah. Yes. With, you know, the dormers with everything. And so. You know, you know, it looks like materials. We'll be matching, right? Line line up. This is visible from North prospect street and amity street, you know, through. Side properties. It's not, you know, on this directly on the street, but that's what I thought. So this is. Yeah. All the pitches are going to be the same. So that it's all basically a ball. You can see in this. The stepping of the existing dormers versus the new dormer, everything's a, everything's a match so that the same style on the, the. The awning windows that are going in on the front of the garage and the rear. They match the ones just to the left of it as well. So. So this is the drawing that really we. Concentrate on. Because this is the revised and current. Drawing. So this and the, and the, and the three dimensional. Rendering of the. Balcony of the two drawings that are probably the ones that we. Focus our attention on. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And so. Originally everybody thought that we were only just doing a three foot addition to the garage. And I was just like, no. We're putting. All new footings everywhere underneath that garage. And it's coming completely out. So because it's. Definitely on sub park. Foundations. And then I. I was like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I will there be no transom windows above the garage door now or no banding it at all. Is it just going to be. Yeah. As you can see in the existing photos of the house, they're never there. The architect put the band in there and I really don't know why because there's not a band anywhere on the house. Not all the way around the house. There's not a band. Anywhere. The only thing that would mimic the band would be the horizontal line on the front porch. On the side view. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, that was a correction on our part just before we, before we sent this all off because we noticed that she had that on there. And so wait a minute, there's not any there. Anywhere else. Right. You can walk through this. Yeah. This has everything that's happening. You know, this is interior. You know, this is. Just label. Yeah. The commission doesn't really necessarily look at the interior. So I think as Bruce mentioned, I think this is a, you know, an important page to look at. The rest of it doesn't seem to, you know, we don't care or we have no jurisdiction over the interior. The. The site plan is important, of course, to the zoning board. But. The second egress that, that. Balcony. Is that legal? If you have a second egress, you don't have to have stairs that go all the way to the bottom. You just need a door to the outside. It's not technically right. Because you have the, and the same thing on a three story house. As long as you got that egress window, you can use a, you have a rope ladder. You can throw right out the window that hooks to the side of the window sill itself. They use those as well here in Northampton. This is, this is technically a, what's known as an emergency escape. That's, people call them egress windows and egress has got a higher. Standard of that in the code terminology. So in the building code, I believe that certainly that's the way it used to be. And I was proactive. They were called emergency escapes. And that meant that you had to have a window big enough, you know, for certain things to happen, but it didn't require any stairways or anything of that associated with it was simply a, an opening that's big enough to get in or out. To jump out the window to get out of the fire. And it's a, it's only required if it's a bedroom. And so if this was, if this was accepted by the jurisdiction as not being a bedroom, then technically you wouldn't need it because it's only a requirement for bedrooms. But I guess what you're doing is, is making it possible for it to be a bedroom without people having to, you know, be here. And what I've ran into it, plus it's got closets in it. Two closets, small little clock or one now. And then, with an issue that I had in another town up in Colrain area, there's pretty much, if there was enough square footage to fit the building code, and you were able to lay your head on it and there was a door in that room, then it could be considered a bedroom. So it's more or less, the door is more or less a way to protect the customer in the room. So it's more a way to protect the customer in the room. Or anybody else who ever buys the house in the future from. Doing anything more with that room itself. It's a prudent move. Thank you. Terprin's comment, I guess though, you know, if, have you spoken with the building inspectors or commissioner about this in terms of what they would require. Or not yet. So, you know, if this, you know, if the commission approves this now, and then the building inspection services in the town says, wow, I can't hear you. I can't hear you. I just want to mention or something, depending on how big of a change, it may be, then it might need to come back to this commission for review. So, you know, minor changes and substantial changes. You are fine, but if they. You know, say, you know, they think there needs to be a stair here and somehow that can't be resolved and they want you to have an exterior stair, stair. Well, then that would, you know, that would need to come back. Before the local, sort of district commission. I, I have submitted this in for a building permit. And I have had a couple of interactions with David Cody, who has not mentioned anything about any concerns over not having a stairway. Right. Yeah. The support brackets look a little small. Yeah, that's just a drawing there. They're going to be red iron. Oh, it's red iron angle. Yeah. I would typically put in something that was bigger just to make it look. Solid. But that again is probably beyond our purview. If I were doing it, I would use that. Probably a six by three. And I may even scallop the inside just to give it some elegance, but certainly I would use something that was. A really solid couple of pieces of wood so that it looked like it was meant to stay up. Yeah. That is like I said, that's more along the lines of like. You're picking. The, as far as it's. It's a, it's a supporting device. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. It's a supporting device. I should say it's this way. It matters not to me. It matters to you guys more than it does. To me. If you want to see a piece of wood there, we can certainly do a piece of wood there versus. Some angle iron. Well, I imagine the angle is, well, it's going to be a horizontal component. It's going to be a horizontal component. It's going to be a horizontal component. It's going to be a horizontal component to this push. Because there's an overturning moment for this can't leave a deck, which is going to put a horizontal thrust onto the wall of the garage. And so. The building inspector will. Should be interested in whether that's garage. Is it a two by six wall for the garage, or it's a two by four wall. It's a two by four wall, but it'll be tied to the, the rim joist with the. It's on the print here. They're 12. Yeah. It's attached to the rim joist on the outside. Again, this is, this is, this is not out. They'll probably have me do the tie back. Also, like you traditionally have to do, if you're going to go up with a roof over the thing, you have to, or even if it's more than a foot off the ground, you got to tie it back to the house. Not just with your lag bolts. It's a special anchor sits a sense and tie that you tie it back with that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that'll do it. To keep, to keep it from pulling away from the house, I think is what your concern is. Yes. And again, this, these are, I should shut up because this is just me looking at this thinking goodness. And I, we don't have any jurisdiction or so. So this is for the building inspector and you to sort out. Yeah. No, but I think so it does get to the point where if, you know, the inspector was like, Oh, I'd want to see like a ledger here or something. And all of a sudden the siding gets needs to get changed in the appearance of the side of the garage changes because of the way. The balcony needs to get fastened then. You know that. You know, because what the commission is looking at is what is being presented. Right. So if somehow that changes significantly, that. We'll definitely have to come back to you guys. So my guess is Nate, that would change. Perhaps there would be a vertical landing piece. Right. Which would be from your hand up to the underside of the. And then on both sides. And that would be the. That would be the thing to which you would anchor the strut because otherwise the strut is going through the finish siding and it wouldn't. So my guess is that we should approve this assuming that there will be some additional member visible from the street there. And then. Then they don't have to come back. Most certainly they're going to have to be a almost. Even more than a. A king stud and a jack. There's going to have to be probably three full length studs in the area where those come where they return the braces return back to the house. So that there's no lateral push. It will be into frame. It won't be just over the plywood. We appreciate that. But that's a, that's not something we're looking at, but from the thing that there might be need to be, you know, like a base, another plate here. There will be a surface piece, I think, because I don't think you will take that. That structural member straight through the siding because it would be too much movement. You'd get leakage and so forth. So my guess is that there will be a vertical member that will allow that strut to attach in some fashion that will then be able to be sealed against the siding without creating opportunity for leakage. So, so all I'm saying is that we should, as we are looking at this, assume that there or understand that there would be another vertical member on either side of that stuff. And if we recognize that and approve it, then you don't have to come back. Yeah. Yes, that's, that's, that will be, I'm sure what will happen. Right. I agree with you completely. There will be a vertical members in there. Otherwise. Yeah, this thing will go. It will go through the side of the wall without any type of good framing in behind where those places are. They'll be framing and they'll, those, those surface pieces will be the, allow the siding to be waterproof against the side of those verticals. Yeah. And what we would do, it would be called what simply like you would do at the top of the stairs inside the house would be a rosette would be a block that's already got the drip cap on the block. And then the four by four mounts, the bracket itself mounts to that piece so that it's all flushed in with the, with the rest of the siding. Yeah. And then materials for this balcony. Is this all wood that would be painted or staying to match the house or what is the, what is the material for this? It is going to be the pressure treated. Just because it's up in the air far enough. I don't want, I can use. Code wise, I can use regular dimensional lumber, but I don't like doing that for a deck because it's just got too much water. So it's going to be pressure treated. And then at the time when the pressure treat becomes dry enough to be painted, then it will be painted the rest of the blend of the color with the house. The worry links will be white as the rest of the house as well. The railings will be wood though. They're not, this isn't going to be a synthetic. And the decking itself will probably be synthetic. Right. But that's not really visible, but what's visible will be, like you said, pressure treated wood railings posts, all that. Yes. And from the bottom side, that could all be painted if, if that's necessary. To, to blend it with the rest of the house. We, we plan to make it look the same as the railing that goes along the front porch. That's a decent. Sorry for all the scrolling. We can, it's hard to see that. Yeah. The existing photo. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. And I think that existing railing is, is one of those that is the historical one. That is probably not at, if it was 30 inches off the ground, it's probably not at 36. So, but that being said, you're not getting a short railing to match that on the balcony. I have to put that at the minimum of 30, 34 to 38 is where I'm going to end up landing on that. Right. For code. And so the, since you brought that up the existing. This is visible. You know, they're. They're narrow is a narrow gap between the two, but in the, in the drawings for the balcony, it looks like you had a larger spacing. Is it going to be something similar to match that? So it looks like a. We do plan to match the, the, the front porch. I just didn't draw in all of the, the posts. Right. Okay. Okay. So. Karen, I don't have any further questions. I don't think. And the lights, is it going to match what's there? So there was. I go back. There's a life extra here. And is it going to be the same as the one that's on the side of the house? Yeah. I'm sorry, what? We're not taking that one off. It's on the side of the house. Right. But you're proposing to, you're proposing to on the new garage. And I was curious to know if it would match this style. As, as closely as possible. Yes. There is a, the coach light is on the exterior on the. The. The one side. Where the, where the man door is, there's a. Going into the side of the garage. There's a light on the side of that. But yes. Yeah. Yeah. It looks like there's a light here, you know, on the side of the garage and then I guess there's going to be another one over on this side. Yes. I'm looking at my phone. It's pretty small. So, but right there by the. On the Gable wall where the, the, the balcony is. That's, there will be a light there. And there's going to be a, I think there's a light at the top. We have a light up there's any on the Gable. By the balcony. The building inspector will probably require that you do. Yeah, we're going to need a light at both, both the new doors and then I believe the, the. Yes, right there. Yeah. Yeah. So it looks like you're in it right. They'll be, I'm just going to annotate this. It looks like you're going to have a, it'll be a light fixture here. Right. Probably right above each door. And then there's going to be one here. Based on the plans, right? Yeah. We're right. On the porch on the, the, the balcony, it would be on the far right of the windows. Oh, you would have. Yeah, because you're one on the door. Below the balcony would be on the corner. Or be directly underneath the deck. So the other one would be on the right hand side of the door. The right hand window of the door. On the balcony. Right hand. So am I on the wrong side then. And I'm like I said, that's any help me out. I'm looking at my phone. It's kind of small. Sometimes I don't pick up your cursor, but on the side door of the garage, there's going to be a light there. We have to, to code. And on the door up. I guess the questions are the light. The one on the side here, is it going to be here or not centered? And then there'll be another one. None of this is shown on the plan. So. Yeah, I don't, I don't think we had. A clear idea of exactly where the light was going to go. But I think that it makes the most sense to put the. The light for the balcony above the middle. Chris, is that okay? I think it would look better in the middle. And then the one at the, at the side man door on, on this, on the side. At the corner. Yeah, right there. And then, you know, the, the other one would be, so we would actually be putting three on the other one would be there next to the garage to, to give. The two side look with the one that's existing. Yeah. Sure. All right. Yeah. It looks like it was. Actually about level with the garage. So, right. They'd be, these would be a little lower. Those. Yeah. All right. Is that clear for everyone? So these two. Drawing it again would be more. You know, it would be. Probably more like about here based on the drawing. So. Three new lantern fixtures. Yeah. Yeah, I see your red circles now. Yeah. Yeah, I just leave them. All right. Now it's good. The power of zoom that you can. Yes. We'd be doing this for weeks. If we had to do it with paper and pencil. Well. Karen, should I move? Yes. They still can be discussion, but at least that'll move it along. So I move. That we. Grant a certificate for appropriateness. For the project that. What's the address again? I don't have it up, but. 117 amity. 117 amity. 117 amity. To do the work as set out. And the documentation submitted. By. Ken Riddle architects and by Haydenville. And was additional. Documentation by Haydenville woodworking. With. Finding that it's consistent with. The the Sunset Lincoln Sunset District. I don't have my wording in front of me, but I. I typically do that. And I don't think there's any conditions other than that. That the. The new. The. The extended garage be. Executed to match exactly the existing. Ballastrade. On the. On the front corner of the house. So that is the motion. Do we have a second. Thank you for seconding. Do we have any more discussion? Or should we go for a vote? Does anyone have anything to add? Okay. Then do we have to. Call this by name Nate. A roll call vote, right? Okay. Bruce. Yes, I approve. Steve. Yes. Greta. Yes, I approve. Nancy. Yes. Is it Heather? No, wait. I'm sorry. Nicole. Nicole. I'm sorry, Nicole. Yes, I approve. And I car and winter also approve. So. I guess it's unanimous and. You will receive this. Nate, why don't you. Say what has to be done. Sure. Yeah. No, I can. You know, just through our permitting will all, you know, Just the law has to be in place. So I can get it done here. And instead of any particular. It's not a permitting administrator. So when you have a permitting administrator, you'll receive something. I'll probably later this week, it has to be, you know, not at the town clerk, but. You know, this can, you know, this will go through the process. Now. Thank you very much. Thank you. Happy new year. Happy new year. And a happy new year to you too. This wasn't as painful as I thought. I love that house. Yeah, I think it everybody does. It's a great it's a nice house. I was just looking at the current plot plan and trying to I noticed that it said that it used to be a barn and I was trying to figure out where the existing the old existing structures were when it was a barn. It looked like it could have the the notes I found said that maybe it was the part of the original house was converted the barn may have been converted in the 20s, 1920s. Yeah, but it's hard to line up footprints based on old maps so I can't tell exactly. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. Good luck. So now we move on. Yes. To the second. Nate, please take over. Sure. And I don't think that anyone presenting 319 321 Main Street. So the contractor emailed me today or last week and asked when this was I emailed today. They were notified back in the legal ad was sent out. So I'm not sure. You know, it doesn't seem like there is anyone here to speak to that application so I can I can do that the you know so at 319 321 Main Street they're proposing to change to two windows. Let me just share my screen here. I think this is probably a better view. So it's just the these two windows under stakeholders capital they're proposing to replace you know this was considered the transom these you know long band right here and then the windows below it and so the windows above they're proposing to replace them and keep it the same so you know two by two you know two over whatever in the rows with the thick banding here and that'll be would actually be exempt from review because it would be change of material but otherwise it'd be the same here's a better view it'd be the same detail and everything. For this larger window they've proposed either replace it as one large single pane or you know a window with four instead of three rows you know a grille pattern with three tall have four tall and a smaller grille pattern throughout the whole window and so really it's this bay whatever you want to call it bay window picture window you know it's the changing this that is part of the review you know they've mentioned that the door is remaining and that if any trim needs to be replaced as part of this process they would just replace it and paint it black so it'd be just replacing in kind as part of the normal window replacement process. You know this image of the front of the building shows that over time there has been changes to the windows along Main Street so you know larger glass and then still some of the smaller pane glass and then you know the one that the one that they're doing is on the end here. Karen? Yes Bruce? I should uh I think the applicant here is maybe I'll ask Nate that can you confirm who the applicant actually is? Yeah so it's both you know it looks like it's Cayman's Realty on behalf of the owner so it's Bay State windows and Cayman's Realty on behalf of Lou and Chen. Okay I because there's a disclosure potentially I the stakeholders capital is run by Andrew Bellick and Susan Bellick they are friends of mine and we my wife and I have them retained as our financial advisors and so they're really a tenant so I just disclose that I I don't think it affects my ability to be impartial and so forth but uh oh sure thanks yeah probably should probably should know that they're not named on any of the application or paperwork so it's really a property manager and owner that are and I think stakeholders is spent is spelled more like you might if it was in barbecue establishment than uh but in the application I mean and so they didn't know maybe it was like a proofreading or auto correct there it's probably something but anyway I when I read it I didn't realize that it was the same then for a moment because I thought there was another establishment right and so the quotes that they received for you know the transit window match right they have the thicker band in them an offset with the two it's really this larger window they were proposing you know this um you know this four over you know whatever it is so we don't have a picture of what they're actually proposing we simply have a description this quote sheet so I don't know if this is visible can you can you put it up I thought I said I'm screen share I'm not sure what what exactly am I you've got the uh you've got the the pdf of the three or four images of the front of the building all right how about is this is this better now yes that's okay yeah you can see it all right yeah sorry yeah this is actually stakeholders now so yeah so for the larger window they're proposing either four you know two four six eight you know eight over four or just a clear pane like this and so you know what what's there is you know something that's slightly different right so it's um two four six they're keeping the eight but instead of eight eight over three it's eight over four or clear and their preference is to have a clear pane you know no grille pattern yeah which is similar to the dance to the hope and feathers at the other end I think it is correct it is yeah yeah so I guess for this purposes of this if we were comfortable with either of the two proposed one with the grills and one without and if we were comfortable with either then they could they could choose yeah I think the one above sorry the one above I think they'll always have the grills above and it's really the big picture window would be one that either has summer has none yeah yeah it's not just the hope and feathers the center also had put in some big like right next to it right I agree that I think it would be prudent for us to leave the decision to those people that are are going to be completely involved because I think would probably work and they're going to be working with the contractors and they're in better position to see what is more energy efficient and I think ultimately they care also how to make it the most so I would give them the option I agree really be painted black like it is now yes so I think in this instance you could you know recommend that it be black you know if you want to say either or that's fine but I think I mean I think typically the commission doesn't leave that you know decision up to the contractor or owner usually the commission will say you know one or the other so I just want to make sure that if you're you know if either one is fine that's that's okay I guess I just typically we don't leave that choice it's true but this picture that we're looking at Nate is a good one because either or if you've got the the the dance center right is is is is one pattern and the open feathers is another so the two proposed windows one with grills and one without is fits with the existing pattern it's just a question of which it's it's going with so I and in the absence of the applicant to ask them what their preference is I think we would if we if we had a preference it would be easy I don't particularly but that doesn't mean that others may not but if we don't have a preference I don't see a problem it will be it that we don't typically do that I don't see a problem applicant had a preference of it being open did it say that it did yeah yeah I mean right can we're not allowed to make a preference we can't uh state of preferences oh yeah oh no we can't I was saying that um you know I don't know was Bruce or crimson oh we could be either one we could allow the the applicant to either put the grills in you know the you know they on the quote sheet that they provided it was you know either you know uh an eight over four or a clear pain you know if that would yeah I just think that the the first of all the the windows and open feathers were probably put in before there was an LHC there I would think right right so to me the grill the grill is much more period and also you know I can see why there would be a plate window for open feathers because it's a framing shop but um my preference uh would be to have a grill before allowed to state of preference and would you right now it's eight over three with I mean it looks like at one point somehow they looks like it was um you know removed a little bit the uh yeah you know this grill here so you know you know Rob Mora the billing commissioner I said if they were mimicking this pattern you know if this were eight over three then it could be exempt from review even if they're changing materials because that's allowed but you know they're doing eight over four so that you know the size of the grill would be would be slightly different and so really that you know that becomes you know here's clear or here's you know here's this pattern here which is slightly smaller it actually looks like that this new eight over four is to match sorry to keep bouncing around is to match the the size of the grills and the transom above right so it looks like it'd be very similar to this size yeah my preference would be particularly since it's right across the street from the Dickinson to keep it this as period as possible and like I said like I think the big windows for open feathers I think it's has a utilitarian purpose for open feathers because they have paintings on display and you know it helps it helps them market themselves but for um stakeholder's capital I don't think having a large plate window is is going to help them market themselves my two no and it's actually speaking as a client which typically one doesn't in these meetings but I can say that it's I would feel less comfortable meeting in there with full display so to speak so I I think but but Steve I I think if if if the rest of us were neutral then the then you then you run the show because you have an opinion so I that's a dangerous the way that's the way it should be I think we're we're a we're a consent we're a consensus operation and so um if everybody is neutral and and you're not then your your view is the consensus becomes must become the consensus view I'm happy with that I'm happy with it I guess Steve would you propose the eight over three or eight over four so you know they're proposing oh I that that I don't care about um I would just like to keep the grid pattern because I just think it's more unique and and more period so I can make a motion to approve the window being changed as long as in a grid pattern whether eight over three or eight over four is up to them I think it's a charming building too and that yeah I'm really I'm really glad they're keeping the top and then clarifying or looking that it does say that will remain black yes they came to us a couple of years ago for the side windows I remember oh I might not have been here perhaps Steve was that your motion the that was my motion it kind of came and went do we have a second I'll second that okay we'll second it oh is there any further discussion anyone want to add anything if not let's vote again we'll start with Rita this time I agree Nancy I approve Steve yes Nicole I agree Bruce yes and I am also a yes so the motion passes as Bruce as Steve uh pronounced it oh it's now Nate what happens now well now so now yeah we concluded the public hearings and then on the agenda there was you know the third item was discussion of the expansion of the local historic district in the town center so you know we have that discussion and then really that's the the last agenda item unless there's any other public comment or unanticipated items to discuss so nobody in the attendees which oh attendees right now yeah I mean Hilda usually comes but it's not here so is he really gonna go are you really leaving I don't know what we'll do with all the expertise well it's it's a rolling ball this I mean yeah but but I know that joining the planning board my family would prefer that I no it's totally understandable you're just so essential well the idea is that that more than the idea the kind of the requirement is that some other architect replaces me and I we haven't been able to find somebody who's willing to do that yeah we yeah after that outreach so yeah I guess Bruce your term expires at the end of June right I guess you would have something like that yes yeah but you could resign before that yeah so we no I don't need to and I said I would stay until we found somebody and I haven't we haven't been too active and then of course Ben went and you're overloaded with that all these other things with now having two staff who've recently departed so so I'm I'm not going to I'm here for I'm here I'm here for them the near term I yeah I'll keep trying to find somebody and I hope others will as well the town reached out um banded a while ago and the difficulty is sometimes if you're a practicing architect if you do work in the local historic district it's can I know it's why I I asked Chris riddle because I thought I could twist Chris's arm but but Chris is dn his I mean he's he's got more serious family demands I think he's heading into than I do so he he's made a a resolution which might have been last year's new year's resolution rather than this current one to not to allow himself to be dragged into too much stuff for the moment and I I I don't know where John Cune is John's retired but he's he would be a very good choice if he would be willing but I I I haven't asked him yet I'm curious which island are you on I'm just curious I mean uh Karen which I wish it were me I'm on my own and I've never been here so long but it's so nice yeah so um jumping into my portion of this um in terms of expertise I actually recruited Elizabeth Sharp to submit a CF what's a CFO is that what it's called yeah yeah no close two or three and she would be yeah I hope we can get her on as quickly as possible I don't know if she literally wrote the book Amherst A to Z yeah and she's also the co-head of historic Am of historic Northampton so she would be terrific and she's all in favor of trying to expand LHD downtown so I hope we can you know expedite that uh as quickly as possible do you know when's the next round or no uh we're trying to schedule interviews um we we try to do it um in December and then with the holidays it was pushed back I know the town managers office had been reaching out to applicants for a number of boards and committees so I know this was one historical commission was one housing trust another so I did see Elizabeth's name actually I when I staffed the commission historical commission years ago she was a member so I I do know a great yeah she would be great and I would actually if we decide to proceed with trying to have an extension she would be invaluable and I've you know written back and forth and I would love to have her her help anyway uh the go on with my the last time I talked to you guys I dropped like a bombshell and you know um I just wanted to make sure that everyone's in favor of moving forward in some way um I met with uh Pam Rooney and Susanna Fabing last month to talk to them about what kind of incentives we might be able to offer developers you know so they would you know countenance having you know this extension of an LHD and one of the things I bounce to them I'm having a really hard time uniting the extension with the RG and the BL I keep you know I'm all I'm on you know it's really hard for me to try to impose something on other people's property and if it's a if it's business you know I feel for some reason and maybe I'm just you know playing it's just me but if it's business I don't have as much problem if it's then if it's residential and um you know at one point I discussed with Pam and Susanna what if like you know the RGs became a BL and they said no don't go there that would open up a big Pandora's box so I don't feel you know and brand big braggers said that those properties are not threatened now they're kind of stuck in amber because of the um dimensional requirements for an RG I guess so what I was thinking of was was trying to pursue um just a business a BL LHD which would only be nine properties I would exclude St. Bridges Church and the rectory which is 122 North Pleasant Street just because I don't think that that's going to be I don't think that's going to be an issue and I really don't want to get involved with the Catholic Church and the diocese or whatever so it'd go from 170 North Pleasant Street which is Brewer's Bagels to 284 North Pleasant Street which is formerly was the Kestrel Land Trust Office and I think those are all the BL properties is that correct Nate? Yeah I guess these are the ones to say um so just for those looking at the map you know here this is a zoning map the BL is the red crosshatch and then the black outline is the local historic district the red the pink or red is the general business and the yellow is the general resident zoning district so I think it would also could include this um Steve just to make clear I think it could also include the few properties that are off of John Hallock John Hallock and McClellan so these other okay so that would bring it up to I mean one of them you know Brewer's Bagel anyway they're all the same vintage they're all around 1850s and um right so my pitch would be that you know downtown is different let's keep it that way but meaning that downtown is different and that it downtown is everybody's downtown and we keep talking about destination Amherst and to me what makes you know place a destination is if it offers something unique and different so let's keep our downtown different so uh I also think that it's more manageable and we won't have as much pushback if we do the RGs and like I said if it later on if the RGs become an issue we could take that on but I think this would be more manageable and more sellable and the real issue most of the research is already done you know most of these already all these houses are on macros already and Susanna and if we see and and Elizabeth will help even if she isn't on the board and we could put together you know to do the research very very quickly the real thing would be and this is where I'm so glad that Nate is on board now uh is coming up with incentives in conjunction with other bodies of you know Amherst to try to unlock these areas to keep so these old structures you know remain and they build in the back like that one structure I showed you that Amherst um I actually that Amherst College did on the other end which Bruce calls the um the Peter Pan building I actually I sent some more photographs to Ben after our last meeting I don't know if he posted them or not of that building so you could get a um kind of an idea of what I'm talking about so anyway that um oh and then also I would like uh Nate well first of all Nate we need your expertise in terms of trying to come up with incentives uh so you know I hope you'll think about that for our next meeting because that's really beyond what I am capable of doing sure so I think you know for the committee so you know I outlined in red and the map what you know what would be the study area essentially now um and so you know the mass the massachusetts historical commission outlines a process you know for um you know an expansion or a new district and so really the in the past Amherst has gone with a study committee or it could be actually the local sort of district commission can be also the study committee but then there is a formal process to follow where you inventory the properties you do an outreach process you notify property owners you have to hold required public meetings you submit a report to mass historic and so I guess some of it would be you know is the commission willing to undertake some of that or would you want to have a separate study committee do that and so um I think that's some of the logistics of having this happen you know as Nate would we need to have the town council approve a new study committee um yeah or the town manager I don't I don't know what which I'd rather not have to go that I mean I'm everyone jump in but I'd rather not go that route and if we could just do it internally I think that's the better way to go okay if you guys want to proceed you know I that and you want to proceed under the parameters that I just mentioned let's see this is yes I'm not muted just let me to understand this that Nate has put a red a thick red line around the limited business area or properties that you're proposing is the limit of the expansion but do I understand correctly then that there are properties to the west of that uh that uh basically one side or other of Halleck Street plus a couple on Cole's Lane these ones they are they are they are still outside of the district so basically we would have that area in blue which is not in their district is that correct yeah I yeah you are correct and so my question is does it would it not why wouldn't we try and include well because one of it's the live that that section you're talking about is like the library the historical society cvs I guess would be the parking lot them there's really no is that no no no this is just properties oh this is prospect you're talking about this is north of Cole so this is a single-family house right here and then this is Halleck Court back here no I see and then these are older properties facing Halleck yeah so maybe there was a reason why they weren't included initially which uh but but I would you know a lot of the a lot of the a lot of the on Halleck a lot of those properties are like apartment buildings that aren't like historic in any way and I think at the time when we were doing it we were dealing with facts on the ground yeah in terms of like those are all student rentals now and about you know it's the same reason why we didn't include like Allen Street and Phillips Street and those streets was that we decided that we had to pick our battles and we wanted to have property owners that wanted the protections of an LHD we didn't want to get into a pitch battle with landlords and as it was we got a huge LHD I mean 192 properties so it actually exceeded um I mean that's a very that's a pretty darn large LHD I mean the Dick the Dickinson's how many properties like 20 something I think I think it's 40 but it's not yeah yeah yeah yeah I think yeah and so Massachusetts Historical Commission you know in their guidance documents will recommend following certain features for a boundary right so if we got North Prospect Street we could say well let's just go up North Prospect Street but really we went to the one properties to the east and that's why you know or essentially one that it looks like an irregular boundary but really yeah you know you didn't go down the center line because that side of the street can impact what the other side looks like and so you know at some point you have to just say that's the boundary right you can you know how much I mean I understand yeah I understand Steve's reply yeah which is also the stuff in the blue I'm sorry to keep talking over yours go ahead well what I'm what I understood you to say Steve that the stuff in the blue is has got a client owners and who care less and b properties that are how do you say this are the least deserving the least demanding from a public point of view of preservation I haven't said that right but it'd be nice to be able to say it better I know where you're coming from I mean some of those so that's the reason why you're yeah the first thing that occurs when someone looks at this is well is this funny this funny undeclared you know kind of landlocked zone that we're not doing and why why is that and then you answered the question well no I mean there's another is a simpler answer than that the blue is not a business district why everything in the red is a bl yep and basically we're trying to prevent the archipelagos of that part of town because that's where the archipelago buildings are now our dead zones why those buildings in that red zone there's there's still lots of foot traffic you know if you go Nate I sent brand um want to maybe you can find it one of the town center limited business zoning district focus area was a thing map of the overlays and it's in the file I sent them and if you go to page I don't know what page but you can literally see one of the overlays that have been proposed um on the corner of Halleck street and it's another archipelago building it's it's just I mean you can actually see the drawing of it among the materials that I have put for everyone's you know inspection you know what an overlay would mean so anyway what I'm trying to come up with is what is the so this is the high trying to come value this is the high value frontage properties that so I know I I think others will ask the question and it's good to be able to answer it and the answer is some brief and marginally sanitized version of what we've been trying to say so I'm comfortable you know proceeding without trying to include that because okay for the for those reasons yep I'm just wondering if I'm wondering could archipelago come in and say we want to could they buy those low apartments and build tall apartment buildings there do we need to protect against that possibility you know I think Pam what they told me is the opposite other side of the street is I guess BG so it's zoned differently than the red zone which is BL so now I think the way it is now they can't and they you just correct me like I said I'm an English major so this is you know so over my I was not even an English major I'm a semiotics major so this is over my head anyway I think the other side of the street is BG which allows large much larger buildings the overlays basically I think because I was asking Pam and Susanna to explain it to me overlays are site specific and when they do an overlays approved I think dimensional requirements can go out the window as opposed like with the garage that is being proposed what this does this is the only way to prevent those buildings from being protected and not being knocked down this you know I was on the historical commission and the base the most they can do is a one-year demolition delay this would ensure that those old 1850 buildings you know will remain preserved and then Pam Rooney and Susanna came up with that those brilliant handouts which I distributed to you guys showing how development could work and if we could get you know someone like Nate who actually knows you know the details if we could come up with a way to provide incentives you know and work you know you know with the owners and the owners are basically Kurt Schumway and Barry Roberts and they're Amherst that you know we could hopefully appeal to them but for me what makes me more comfortable is once again that this is let's keep downtown different you know let's tie it into destination Amherst and downtown is different because downtown you know really belongs not just to the people that own it but to everyone who lives in town and frequents it so Steve are you proposing a new district right not an expansion so this would be a new district yeah I would like to call it like the the BL district the business the business district so it has a theme that ties it together so it could be the the north pleasant street business historic district yeah something yes it's good to have a street name or something I mean that's yeah you can send we've got sunset yeah absolutely anyway just think about it you guys north pleasant is the uh is the long axis there yeah so the north pleasant business just so Steve I think that this is really absolutely the way we should go and I think we should go as fast as possible um all those reasons that you said that this is uh destination Amherst that it is different that it's worth preserving but that something has to happen there that we can't just leave it as Bruce said as you walk down this decrep why is this so town so decrepit it it does have to change and the proposition I think we should all get on board of I don't think it's that hard to sell to say that we want development but we want development which is going to really make it keep it a destination worthy of being Emily Dickinson's home and being unique in the whole world and what you're saying Steve is that it would go faster if it was an internal commission composed of of the members of this commission then if we try to get another one approved um is that what what you said well being married to a council uh council member I'm not convinced that it would get approved by the present composition of this council yes and I hold it up it would definitely hold it up so um it would be nice if we had you know Elizabeth as part of this commission and she would be great on the study group I think you would be great on the study group I think she would be great on the study group create it would be great I think we should go full forces and try to sell this with a guy whose key is mr a lawyer I mean I think um I'd also you know yeah so I think we set out so like I said the process would be the commission can then vote itself a study committee or I don't not even sure you have to really vote I'd have to look into that um and then um you know we started studying the boundaries we'd have to determine why that boundary why not say to prop why are we ending where we are why not go north or west or east and so uh Steve looks like you you know thought about that so I think that's something you know we have to answer so you know we prepare a preliminary study report that goes to mass historic uh and to the town um and you know really it's an inventory form for each property and then there's a narrative that needs to be written uh with some justifications for certain things and then this is a pretty small district uh so then it could happen pretty quickly and then you know mass historic reviews it and ask for some feedback we do have to get buy in from the property owners typically if half the property owners um dispute a district mass historic recommends that the town you know changes thinking or something so I I do agree that between Barry Roberts and Kurt Shumway they probably own I don't know 80 percent of the properties there um I think Kurt owns that whole brugers block yeah he might he might own yeah he might own this whole thing you know it could be worthwhile to me um with Kurt and Barry too as this gets forming so um well now what we need from you though is we need I'd love to meet with them and I don't we I just don't have the expertise to say if you would be amenable to this we would go to the zba or to the planning board and propose this in terms of helping you develop you know behind those buildings I just don't know what to offer them and I actually asked Pam and Suzanna and they didn't know either well I I think uh um meets employer is not not those two boards as you mentioned Steve it's um I guess ultimately it's Barry and not Barry that's he's long gone uh Paul and and and and more directly uh Christine so I guess if the if the town is prepared to commit a certain amount of time for Nate to do that then he can do it but it's it's not his decision obviously yeah I I think that what Nate suggested is the structure that we need to do I'm going to be less good at this uh because I'm not in the area and I haven't done a lot of this but what I can do is I'm I can um I'm certainly willing to participate in meetings um I mean I know Barry pretty well I don't know Kurt so well but you know I understand a little bit about how these guys think and operate and so if we were planning to meet with them we could talk together um and uh well I guess we have to make sure it's we can do it together I guess Nate you and Steve and I could meet or you and Steve and I think the two of you could meet with me and you know it's not yeah so any two of us plus you is a meeting that can happen without uh um and and and with Pam no what's the uh the person's name who we're contemplating inviting to join the commission oh Elizabeth Elizabeth so before Elizabeth joins uh she is not bound by the uh public uh so if she was intent on joining if she was intent and if she was agreeable to joining it might be prudent and I don't know whether I'm just being you know my usual smart ass type characters probably ought to be spanked but uh but it seems to me that it might be good to have some meetings that would involve you and she and Nate and one of the rest of us so that you could meet much more simply um to get some structure some thinking lined out before she actually becomes uh part of the uh constrained constrained by the open meeting law every meeting law is there for a reason I don't want to dispute it but when you're trying to strategize and just think things through and brainstorm and stuff it's it's just a lot easier to do it casually um in the way we used to do these things so I mean I think yeah I mean I you know so like for instance if Steve me and Bruce met that's just an ad hoc meeting we're not like a subject to anything so to me that's fine we can report back to the committee full commission on what's happening so um yeah I mean I don't you know I yeah to your point I'd have to I'd have to talk to other staff but what is the incentive I mean I think we want to right keep foot traffic we want to keep businesses downtown we're going to keep you know keep it vibrant and so you know I think there's going to be some you know different opinions on what that means is it uh renovating and reviving those old buildings is it all new construction and so that's not you know that becomes a a big discussion I think what happened when the other year when the town staff was planning some BL was owning overlay uh you know and it's going to happen again when we we're hoping to get this a request for a proposal out for downtown design standards it opens up the question about what is downtown and what are the boundaries and it's a discussion the town hasn't had in a while and so I think it you know whether it's the downtown design standards whether it's this proposal for a local historic district I think it's just going to get everyone talking about you know what is appropriate development downtown and I don't know if that's that hasn't happened in a while and so um well this is a good way to start it then I mean I'm not saying you know it's up for the people of Amherst to decide what kind of town they want right but um but at least this would give them you know an option right I'm saying that because although yeah I consider it an easy process it's not a lot of properties you know we could get the forms and the narrative done it may just be that it becomes you know a much bigger discussion in the community you know right right it might just be that because we do have what are you guys uh the solid ones Nancy and Heather what are you guys I mean we'd all have to we're going to get a lot of pushback on this so just want everyone to be aware of that and you know um what's your feelings on this I think it's a good idea I like the idea if you're meeting with them and trying to hear what their concerns are and and help them understand what we were thinking of you know and what we're not thinking of so that they don't worry about that we're not going to let them do anything with those properties but um trying to guide them to see what is possible showing them what Amherst College is doing etc etc so I mean and Amherst has a couple of different properties they've done that with now so some good examples of what can happen without completely changing the the character of the building Heather what do you how do you feel about it uh Nicole but um yeah that's okay I can see you know if I had better glad I'm going to my eye doctor tomorrow and I'll get that so I'm using my ipad so I can I can't see the names so sorry oh that's okay that's okay um yeah I think one I mean what I've been listening to and obviously I wasn't involved with the previous um development but having it be a business district and something totally separate makes sense but yeah just having that um meeting with them ahead of time again just to see what kind of support there is or what you know might be needed before all the time and energy gets put into writing up and um writing up the report and all of that makes a lot of sense um okay so Nate you need to tell me what the next move so I think we're are we agreeing that we're going to maybe include those two properties on Halleck which are the same vintage uh they're all owned by Kurt Shumway so you'll be thrilled about that add those properties and then try these would be 11 properties she is that what we're going to try to uh roughly move ahead with yeah it sounds like like 11 or 12 properties and so it could just be contacting the owners and having them meet uh in town hall with the one or two of you and staff and just you know that could be the next um the next point the other one would be I'll send out the massachusetts um historical commission guide book and so I think everyone can read that so I do think I want to make sure we're following the process correctly so you know I posted that it's already posted on you know we we can't use Dropbox anymore Jenny says because it's we're now as town council and subject to state laws is that why we can't use Dropbox yeah you know I didn't I haven't so so previously we had used Dropbox or an online sharing platform with a caveat that we can't have these online conversations right so we can't be sharing documents or somehow having conversations without outside the public meeting and now last time we had a study committee and other committees we were able to use Dropbox or some file sharing software and more recently we've been told we can't I haven't I want to look into a little bit more Steve so I you know um you know saw because I put all this I've listed I I put every I put the overlays in it I sent it to Ben I sent him photographs of all the houses I fixed the one that was the mistake uh the guide books there it's all it's already there so I just don't know how to access it yeah so I don't know that it's yeah I I'll talk to a town clerk I mean they they can help clarify I'm not sure that it's necessarily a violation I think there's concern that it could become one and so out of caution they recommend not doing it and so I'm not sure if we can I just I have to confirm that I just it's just so much easier snakes I could like show everything on my own and it could be that you know maybe the concern is that it's not a public folder maybe we just make it a public folder and that way it you know then that eliminates any concern right so before it was a Dropbox folder only the committee could access but maybe it becomes like a public packet essentially that is up there and anyone can look at it anytime and that might eliminate that that's what I would like and they I before we meet with Kurt and and Barry I'd like to meet with you and and Bruce or whoever want you know to come up with some ideas of what we could offer them I think we've you've got to put yourself in the position of these two Barry and Kurt and anyone else if there's a if there is a third or multiple part more more parties than two and say why why should they care because the easiest thing for Barry and Kurt to do is say well I'm happy with the way things are if we can explain what they what we should we should be able to explain why we're doing it from our point of view we want to do this because but it helps then if we can also say and you want to do this or we hope you would want to do this or we think you would want to do this for these reasons as well so we can argue it from their point of view if there's no argument from if there's no benefit that they accrue from this and it's then it then it's then we have to prevail in a political power play right so it would be good to try and identify reasons why they would why it would be beneficial for the developer I can't think of those but Nicole you probably got some thoughts about this um so uh well Nate have you read the have you read the handout that Susanna and Pam Rooney created I both said that too they did that a while ago right yeah yeah yeah I mean I you know so sometimes I think you know keeping or developing behind the buildings may not be possible just given the lot sizes or other things I mean I think a local historic district doesn't prevent new development it really shapes it and so you know I think that even with the design guidelines downtown design guidelines at the planning department you know hopes to get going next you know this year sorry January this year you know it would actually have more it would have a lot more than what the you know guidance in the document than the zoning bylaw has now right so in terms of architectural details pat window patterns other things and so you know I think the local stick store district has the same principles and it becomes stronger because it because it's regulatory and so you know for me it would be about bill gillen when he was on the study committee said well he looks at it as a recipe that if it's clear then the architects can follow it developers can follow it it's really you know it's a tool to help with development or redevelopment and so you know the obstacles might be that are you know are we saying that the buildings can't be of a certain size or scale are we making it more expensive you know the hope side could be that we're you know the buildings would be more attractive so that it would actually keep you know businesses and foot traffic and make it more lively and vibrant and economical and so you know I don't know you know we can say this and I'm not sure if there's been any studies done I can look on the mass planners listserv in a few places to see you know even Northampton has a district downtown or in a more commercial area what you know what kind of outcomes there are so I think you know some of them might be doing a little research to then present to the owners and developers I mean honestly when we've done this in the past we've been zoning changes the developers are often pretty quiet publicly yeah so they're not we don't hear from them sometimes which is kind of funny you know we have reached out and you know they might have some ideas but usually we don't hear a lot and so you know this will be one of the first times where if we can approach you know them directly will be good I mean I know Kurt and Barry you know I think they're really amenable to things they're I think they like to think about how they can work with the town and the community and so you know when we were for instance you know Barry's been moving houses right he's opted to move houses to make it work uh Kurt's been really interested in you know doing things with shared parking or he's mentioned it when we were doing the downtown parking working group and he was one of the few who was like you know I'll be going to try different strategies and so I think they're really willing and open to to work with the town and communities well that that's as you were saying what you were saying to Ben Nate I was thinking that maybe it would be a good plan to meet first with Barry because Barry's we've had this commission has had recent experience with Barry and one line of inquiry would be well Barry do you think that the the sunset the development on sunset that we've that you've recently undertaken do you think we were a constructive presence in that um and I mean I I think we were actually yeah Bruce I this I beg the gentleman I I think we have to come up we have to talk to people that know and see if we can come up with some ideas to present them I was on the historical commission when there was the demolition delay on the Hallock property you know um you know what I'm talking about it was a co it was a co it was a on the which property it was Hallock and north it was a corner of uh it was one in on Hallock which connected which was owned by Kurt Shumway and it connected to a property that abutted um North Pleasant street that was owned by Barry and they came in and we did um they you know I can look up the address yeah yeah it was on the corner of Hallock in North Pleasant so it was right near um you know we're um we're you know realignment park right at the southern end of Kendrick yeah anyway they came in and they wanted to knock the building down and they wanted to put you know a very generic office building in a huge office building in its place and they were and then we did a one demolition delay and went away I guess because they had they had one client that wanted to for the whole building and that client went away and they're still very upset about it and their attitude was hey the guys across the street are making hey you know they can do whatever they want what why why can't we so they were very shaken up by it and I think they're still very angry about it and in fact I know they are so before I just know that their knee jerk reaction immediately would be oh man we can't take these buildings down we can't evolve but you know I I think you're you're you're arguing against the proposition that we should meet with them no no you're saying that we know what their attitude is going to be well my concern is that I would say that that what we do know is because they're both in town people who have been in town for a long time is that they want to be well received um now yes they could have uh because the example you're citing and I would uh argue this if I was in front of Barry right now say well Barry Kurt um that that that example didn't play out it was it was basically a a one game tennis match and and and the first game you didn't win but it doesn't mean that you wouldn't win the set or the match if we had played it through now we did play through the sunset development with Barry and there were a couple of points which I'll cut to the chase which is that I generally think that that property is going to be well received it was supported by this committee this commission and by other town boards I suppose as well my sense is that the extent that we can get involved in these sensitive areas the argument if we can if we're going to be successful we have to successfully I think make the argument that our involvement is going to be a net benefit that we're going to help the project that manifests out of this one that is more generally acceptable and is going to cause the developer less grief that would be the if we could convince the property owners of that argument then that would be they would be more likely to want us involved in the process Bruce I think the only thing we're talking about now is whether you Steve and you and Nate should meet first before involving I think we all agree that we're going to eventually talk to them but probably for a preliminary to just get clear what what we could constructively offer for example I think in the thing that you sent out Steve that Pat Rooney designed it was clear that that these properties are kind of stuck right now because of zoning changes and things like that we could help further that by being behind by by talking to the developers and saying look we would go we'd be willing to help you modify this if the whole thing is more in or what do you think about this so you're talking about is meeting before meeting now to consolidate your your attack plan in a way or yes or they offer I mean what I understood you to say I think but let's see is you're saying that to the extent that there is owning inhibitions or there are aspects of the bylaw that are inhibiting those properties those specific properties in ways that are perhaps detrimental you're saying that we might be able to argue with them for some kind of I don't know whether remission is the word but something that would allow them to do more with that property in exchange for then having us yeah I just want to have my ducks in a row before I see them is basically what I'm saying yeah and I just don't know what those ducks are like I when I met with Pam I said Pam this is great how do we make this happen you know what a what a and she goes I don't know so I need someone who knows the guy who knows his mate because I've worked with him before and mate is like amazing well let's let's hope that's true and I'm willing to participate but but only if you think mine the best best one because and because the moment we have more than the two of us we have to advertise it no what I would like to do is have you and me maybe Elizabeth meet with Nate and just talk about what Pam Rooney could come to yeah and what is yeah what's possible you know as I once wrote to Karen is that we're really smart we're a town of really smart people so we should be able to do something really creative you know between all of us instead of you know just doing what's the most expedient which is what it seems to be what we have been doing okay well I'm up for that and I also think if I like the painting the vision you have of Amherst of being historical and a destination and I've noticed that after our last meeting there were two letters to the editor that mentioned that that mentioned how much they appreciated the local historic district and the expansion that people I don't even know but they mentioned that so I thought to get that vision out there it is a way of convincing Barry and Kurt that that's what Amherst that that's an advantage for all of Amherst including major property owners here so I really like that vision that you put out yeah I agree I think more than making deals because I mean taking the high ground of having this vision and publicizing it so that you have people behind it it's a great way to go everybody hates those other buildings but that's what gives us leverage yeah nobody wants yeah all right so Nate how do we go out facilitating this meeting with with the three of us and maybe someone else yeah I mean I can send an email out this week and just find times in the next few two weeks so we can meet that's okay and then I'll send the committee I know you post this if I can just send a link the mass historic I'd revise the guidelines okay local historic districts not going to see email everyone yeah that's probably been updated since the one I posted yeah I think they updated it yeah November of 21 I thought or pretty recently I thought they're trying to finish an update maybe they had done it more even more yeah mine was like well before that okay yeah all right that sounds good and plan so um Nate then before we close the meeting do we want to um put on the agenda next for next time uh election of officers I think we should yeah yeah and I think you know for everyone you can you know feel free to research local historic districts and benefits to local economy I mean anyone can forward articles books whatever around that's not a violation between meeting law men recommend going through me but you know if you see a great article in some magazine you can you know our online publication you can send it out that's fine it's really the problem is if you start we start emailing back and forth discussing that and why how it's relevant to Amherst and also that's a discussion that should be happening in the public meeting but sharing information is not a violation yeah so I think election of officers is good to have I mean I will say there's been some pending applications which may which will require a public hearing so um there's a proposed demolition of a garage on Fearing Street uh installation of a car charging station on one on McClellan um maybe a demolition of another garage so there's a few you know possible applications that come through the commission that would need a public hearing in the next month and so we could say we'll meet in four weeks but I may need to email everyone to ask that we meet sooner depending on or late you know depending on when these come in I try to coordinate so we try to have a hearing and capture as many as we can um everyone's been really slow to get information to me so some of the some of these have already been the applications were started weeks ago and they just won't they haven't been completed and so they just you know so I know they're coming yeah I think that sounds good so should we schedule having a meeting one month from now which would be um February 7th is that does that work for February 7th at three o'clock um that we schedule it for then aside and you ask us to meet earlier and then we find a time I think the 7th would work actually because we need a two-week notice so even if we have it on the 7th the man being like a week later just so if we can get enough here you know I'd rather get all the applications done and not try to hold another hearing after for just one application so I should say that the reason why meeting on a Tuesday is because New Year's Day was right Monday was the holiday we typically meet on a Monday but we're a bunch of new folks so I'm I'm I'm okay with Tuesday but I just remind us that Monday is typically being out there that particular week Monday the 6th would work better for me all right you can say money for me all right Monday does that give us enough time Nate yeah I mean if we needed to I can try to get like I said if those applications come in we would need I would need them coming in the next two weeks but hopefully they can if they don't then they you know we just I'd let them know that they're you know it just would be another a later time for them okay so we'll say February 6th at three o'clock yeah is there anything else we need to discuss at this meeting before are there any comments anyone wants to put forth then thank you Steve thank you so much for helping group as always and we don't have to have a roll call we just say yeah if everyone agrees we can just say it's adjourned yeah you're both by pushing the red start of the new year