 Welcome, everybody, back to Segal Talks here at the Martin E. Segal Theatre Center, the Graduate Center CUNY in Manhattan in New York City at the City University and it is week 12 of our daily talks during the week with theater artists from around the world but of course also from New York and from the Americas. And it is slowly getting into summer and we are in a way hopeful. It looks like that bars and restaurants and shops might open, will open next week. There are some troubling signs. New Yorkers as we all are, we don't seem to fully respect the rules of distancing and wearing masks. Everybody is so happy to be out and there are cases around the world of new outbreaks, complexes in Germany, in Berlin, where 300 people and one big building have been infected. So there are pockets of new infections and we don't know. Numbers also seem to be going up in Texas and others even so our government says no, it's just because people are tested but we'll have to see what will come and what not. There are slightly disturbing news. There are some studies suggesting even immunity. After you had COVID, after three or four months might not protect you. So it is still a devastating situation. I think one more million, one million more people filed for unemployment in America last week. It's a devastating situation. So many people who are infected over a million and so many died. And we have to see what leaves the theater community that has been hit so hard as all artists. Black Lives Matters, of course, the civil unrest on the streets for a very good reason changed everything. We started talking about Corona, but this now also has of course been on our mind and we dedicated the entire last week to the subject and today is and we have to acknowledge it. Juneteenth, the news of slavery, the end of slavery when it finally was delivered to Galveston taxes to slaves or to Lincoln had signed into law was now and I think it's a significant day. Also city university decided this week to have a day of nonworking many companies ended all meetings to honor this and I would like to take the moment to remember one of the great abolitionists. David Walker and what he wrote in 1828 the great philosopher black philosopher Tommy Shelby wrote about in the new history of literature for America. Where I said David Walker proclaimed that the children of Africa will have to stay take their stand among the nations of the earth and it was about white supremacy and black solidarity. David Walker black American was born free in Wilmington, North Carolina in 1796. And as a young man he traveled extensively around the South serving, observing the injustices of the slave system. And after black churches where he belonged to where a suppressed he moved to Boston where he worked in a closing store, helped freeze run away slave help slaves run away slaves. And he organized black community, and he delivered an oration and soon enough afterwards a pamphlet with Tommy Shelby said. In the indecent area in incendiary and the soon enough notorious appeal and four articles towards the preamble to the color citizens of the world but in particular, and very expressively to those of the United States in America. A militant antislavery document that ever been published and he describes the feature of oppression under slavery and argues that blacks have a duty to resist their oppressors, even using violence if they have to and he exposes the way into white Christian ministry uphold slave system preachers reinforced that the institution of slavery the white churches teaching you know that it was their duty to obey their masters and evoking the curse of descendants of harm. And even when blacks became Christian as Walker noticed they were still not granted the same rights as white. Nevertheless he remained a devout Christian. He said it was an absolute duty to fight against injustice and that oppression was no excuse for for not engaging. And he said men's will have to fight a glorious fight and a heavenly fight of freedom. And it was unjust as his pamphlet was of course forbidden a bounty was placed on its head blacks were no longer allowed to read that to gather. It really cost was directed towards the black community only. And he said it's their right and their duty to throw off a government, because it has the same right as Jefferson said in his declaration of independence, it would also apply to African Americans. And Jefferson's idea that it was actually not of value because the black race was not couldn't be compared to to the white one is completely wrong. He saw that early he took action he wrote he fought, and he's a great great American. And, and he ended his pamphlet and he said he believed racial reconciliation reconciliation in America was possible and desirable he said treat us like men, and we will be your friends, and there's no doubt in my mind, but that the whole of the past will be sunk into oblivion. And under God we will become united and happy people so he, I think had a great message already then and it's important to honor to honor this day which we have today slavery of course has been around the world for centuries. And as we talked to artists from all around the world we today have with us Saman Amini who comes from Iran from Persia, by the way who also had North American slaves. So they are studies now being done that they have no North African slaves I mean, and the history is being unfolded, and Saman is now living in the Netherlands and in Holland. And he came as a refugee to that country and we heard from him from our friend Alessandro Benedetti who said you know this is an important artist, and he has something to say. And so we're going to listen today to him and his experience of being a refugee coming to the Netherlands and getting into the world of theater but also now experiencing the world of Corona of covert of confinement. And so, Saman, first of all, thank you for taking the time I know you have no idea who we are what howl around is you haven't listened to any of the talks. But thanks for taking the time to to share with us. And your experience where are you right now. What city, and I guess in the Netherlands and what time is it. The time is 1807. And I'm in Amsterdam in the center center of Amsterdam. I was very lucky to find this place a small place. And I've been at least here for two years now. What's the neighborhood called where you are in Amsterdam. And it's the you're done the neighborhood. You're done Jordan, Jordan. Oh, good. That's that's fantastic. It must be already a beautiful summer with everything blooming. How is very. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, how is the situation with Kobe and Corona and confinement and all of it. Tell us a little bit what's happening in the Netherlands. It's, it was also very chaotic for us I think that I think like this for for for everyone it's like a one time thing that happens in your life I hope so. And, and to me like emotionally personally. Of course you have what it did to the society but when I'm talking about with a lot with a lot of friends of mine is is on a way we were like me if I take myself I was like, I had some demons like from the past that I had to face and I was, and I come to the I came to the conclusion that was running away for a very long time. And I was using tear there my work to, you know, to get by and when the corona virus came it pulls that tool, my being like a little war colleague that I am. It took that away from me and then and then I had to face those thought those images those pictures you can call it monsters or something. And that was very interesting to finding like who you are. And that's strange because I'm from Iran and I've always had a laugh on that idea that the people going to travel to Australia to find themselves. And, and, but now I understand that the meaning of that, like, what's my narrative, why am I right where I'm coming from. And that to me that was a very powerful thing that I, I get to find and I get to get the opportunity to look at during the corona. And that's for me personally emotionally. So it has been very good to me actually on a on a strange way. And society wise, you know, of course people lost their jobs and we lost our projects but and it's terrible to everyone. Because we have access to the internet right now, and I've been following all over the world and I came to the conclusion that we as Dutch people living in Netherlands. We are very lucky. We are very lucky to have such government and such mentality in the government that they took care of us you know I get. I lost all my all my jobs, and I still catch like 1000 euros for three months from the government. And, and that sounds normal to us but it's very impressive and I'm the reason I'm also doing this talk with you is, I hope like the giving details that the American people are the people who are looking that they, they, they could see and feel what it actually are you know where they are entitled to as human beings, especially in such a big rich country of the United States. So, of course we have our struggles, but you know as an artist, the works never done so when I got back and got back up and emotionally I had my stuff. I had it all on one place and I ordered it. I started work man I'm writing and I'm not getting paid for it, but I'm looking forward you know to just go out there and just work again. So when did it start was there a lockdown were you supposed to when your apartment could you go out we had to print out forms. We never had that. No we never had that extreme lockdown. They did advise us you know we of course you couldn't go to theaters and crowd places they stopped it like I think like it was end of February but I don't know the date. I think it was in the beginning of March, but it wasn't that extreme like not not being able to go to the city like some other countries. And that's it of course we the theaters are closed and even my my new new play that I'm writing it's going to be. It's going to be September and it's a big possibility that I'm going to play this in front of only 100 audience in a big in a theater where you know you can have 500 people so that's going to be it's going to be a challenge of course but still you know where all I'm going to be. Yeah, we're all we're all stores closed and restaurants in in the Netherlands in March was a restaurant not all stores. We also have you know the people were stolen toilet papers and those stupid stuff we also had it here. But the supermarkets were always open there as course restaurant the crowded places they're all closed but they are open from one June the restaurants are open. You can go fix your nails fix your hair, but the theaters are still close. No, they're open but you can only play for 30 men in June, and in July it's going to be a thing more. So it opened for 30 people performances. Have you seen one. No, no I haven't. The moments I'm working when I'm creating. I don't see anything like I'm just like really writing and being very selfish as an artist because this is the way you're writing and going to do a play I'm writing the songs and the whole thing myself is like all the time I have is going to display. So do you. Did you, what did, did you do anything to in Corona time online or zoom or did do you follow Dutch artists who engaged in forms of continuing their work or is it a time for everybody say we have to stop and think. Yeah, I saw a lot of like, people like try to do theater like online and with, but that's just, it doesn't work. That's the, that's the beauty of theater, you know, is that you're going to sit there and see it otherwise it's going to be film or, or live demonstration so the things I saw I wasn't really getting very enthusiastic about it because it didn't work for me. My attention fell away after five or 10 minutes and it's because it's like watching to a to a screen to theater that's just like this weird. It didn't work for me it doesn't work. And tell us a bit you are, you came, I think, age of 10 or 12 you came to the Netherlands tell us a bit your story about where you came from and how was your experience and how did you get into theater. Yeah, I was, I was born in Iran, Tehran, and my parents decided to flee to Iran when I was 11, and they brought me to the Netherlands against my will. What year was I hated the 2000 September 2000. Yeah, so it's funny is every time when I get introduced is that I flee from Iran. Always, I was always do something to me because it wasn't really a choice for me as a child. Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful. Yeah, but you liked it. Why did they leave. Why did your parents leave. It's, you know, it's a combination. I don't want to get to the details but it's it's it's coming. If I would tell the tell it universally it's that my my mom, it's all about having like a getting to a place where you have the right to dream you know to dream and chase those dreams. And it was all about the children it was all about having a better life for me. I was talking to you know I came to the Netherlands, and even in Iran, I live in a pretty rough neighborhood, poor, poor neighborhood. And if I wasn't in the Netherlands, if I would have ended up in the United States or in Iran. I don't think I was be able to be a study theater study acting like that. Because probably was going to take care of my parents. Traditionally, Iranians often would go to America, but that has changed people they go to they prefer Europe at the moment as a country to go to, or as a place. Yeah, I think like that's very, that's like, because there's a lot of similarities in the United States and Iran, especially when you're in LA. Like, it's crazy like this is a lot of a lot in common between those cultures. And, but that's like 40 years ago a lot of people went to went to the United States I think still but our plan was to get to Canada. You know, because of circumstances we end up to get in the Netherlands. And, yeah, I'm going to get it back so I was 11 when I came here. My father couldn't couldn't make it. And he came five years later so I was growing up this little angry boy, I was this angry boy who wasn't. And then I knew I was angry. And I felt like dehumanized by by also the situation that I was the refugee. I felt it when the way people would look at me you know when I was waiting for bus. And, and this, this is all things I discovered when I got older, you know, and so I become like feeling this frustrations and feeling this injustice that was done to us as immigrants. And, and I always had a big mouth and I was always the guy they used to tell them let let him tell the story so it was always in me the telling story parts. And then I when I was 17 there was this organization who organized to the worship for kids from the rough traumatized kids from the refugee camp. So they would like find a way to express their feelings and that's how I rolled into it, you know. So the Dutch government had had workshops. It was with the theater and it was in your school or on the street in the neighborhoods. Quite like the government like you know there's like this government budget. And part of it is for culture and then all are going to see if you like you can start like a company and you can apply for it. And that was the company. What company was it. It was it's not a company is a sticking I don't know why I said it in English but it was a, it was a foundation, it said in English. So it was a foundation. And the whole thing was that they would like bring children refugee children from the refugee camp. So get them out of their environment and just, and just make sure they get to know art. And for us it was theater. So it would be like every Friday you would go to another city and we would go. Do theater, you know, and my first motivation was is I was like, oh, so I get money to get away from the refugee camp on Friday and they're going to be a lot of beautiful girls. Sign me up for that. So you were you grew up in a camp it was a camp you said a refugee camp and yes a camp yeah. How did that look like, how did that look like in Europe. It was like an old old, I've been in multiple refugee camps, mostly these are buildings right out of the city of out of the village. And the mind, one of us when I said it was like a place where you keep all people high center. Old age home. Yeah, but and then they reformed it to the camp refugee camp. And the other one was like a old place where soldiers used to stay and they reformed that to a refugee camp. So what you can imagine it's like yeah it was a building with two to 250 people in it. And it's funny because I always described like the refugee camp for me personally, as like it was like a hell and paradise in the same, same spot. And because emotionally it was very heavy for me because I had a strong feeling of responsibility so every time we got rejected or every time we had problems with the police in our case, I would be really stressed out about the idea that I that one day they will send me back to Iran, because I was getting used to it. It's like a very big bad thing you could just like the worst thing I think one of the worst thing you can do to a child is like you pick him up from this place, you just put him on the other side of the world. It's still to this day. Sometimes I just I just black out like black out from from the whole thing and I have to remind myself why I'm speaking like Dutch. Where am I what my name is. And I discovered that that was the trauma of being being taken away from your home. So terribly and so abruptly. What was that. So I was thinking about the refugee camp. Yeah, so then then they had, they did this, they did an offer to me, the foundation of frolic and it was this small theater group in another city that they were doing theater like twice a week. And at that time I was doing another educate. I was following another education and I was wanting to be a hotel manager, something like that. I don't know why I did it but I was doing something I was just just trying to study like you know not staying home. And at the end of the year they asked, they were very happy about me and they asked me if I wanted to join them like professionally every day. And they would give me some money and I stopped right away with my other, the whole hotel management study I was doing, and I just went, I went for it. And three years later I applied for the most difficult Academy in the Netherlands in Maastricht Acting Academy. Very famous. Yeah. Yeah, I got I got. What role did you, did you, what did you audition for audition for or what did you tell them when you when they asked you to a monologue or whatever what did you do. Yeah, I had to do like some Romeo and Julia. But you got to understand my Dutch was shitty. I just came from the refugee camp and I, that was one of the first thing I came then I read the scene I just didn't understand the words. I just like I could feel some part of it I understand the situation but I was I panic that was like I cannot read this. I won't be able to memorize the words I don't understand the meaning of. But the guy was very nice and said listen man you're not here for your language man I just want to see if you understand acting just so if you lose the words just use your own fucking words go for it. And, and of course we had some improvisations test and, but I think like they saw me that I could act because I understand the situation I had when I was 17 at life experience for someone who's 30. So that was in me I didn't know shame. I was just big mouth kid you always. And I really liked attention because I didn't have the right attention for my father you know I was that I felt that I wasn't being seen by by my dad, and by the society. So all those things came together and it was actually make perfect sense for me to go to that school and they, they accepted me and that was, that was a moment I cried and I really, I really want this incredible story and Did you feel, or now that you do you feel that society was opened, as you know in America we have this social unrest for very, very good reasons now. And so often we read here you know about also you know the policies or but also outpacks against foreigners against these immigrants in anywhere in Europe so how was your experience how did how do you feel as an immigrant artist so you feel I feel like shit I feel like I was treated like shit. And it's, it's, it's fair for partly because as people you know you will always remember the negatives, the negative impact will hold on to it longer. There are a lot of nice people who, you know, at the same football soccer club, I got rejected, and they would call me names like you got them refugee at the same place you had this guy who said, I don't give a fuck about where you from. If you want to play soccer does the play I love, you're gonna play here so you know, I got rejected and get hold by the same people that time. But to be honest, it's, it's, it really scarred me on a way and it's the thing I was talking about inferiority complex, it really scarred me. Because I remember not wanting to be that refugee I remember like hating the fact that I had to get out of the bus, and I would have to go to the left and then everybody will know that I'm a refugee. I would take it I would walk to right till the bus was gone, and then I would go back to the refugee. And these things I'm telling you I saw I discovered when I was older. As a kid, I was just angry boy you just, you just didn't know what to do with his emotion. Yeah. To be honest, you know, it's funny because, you know, the Dutch, the Dutch, the Netherlands makes so much possible for me, you know. Yeah, but still it's like the uncle who used to like do bad stuff to me when I was a child, you know, or like the father who slaps you like a physically like abused you, but he pays for your study you know you pay you know that's the, that's the, that's the relation I have when I'm thinking about my relationship with the Netherlands. And, and of course, then you get older then you start to see the real racism because you have two kinds of racism right is one racism that said, Hey, you black face, go to your back to your own country. We all agree that's wrong right. We all agree about that. You have this little sneaky racism that and they have this racism that people, they don't know they're acting racist, you know, it's because they sometimes they actually meant it very good. And that's like the tragic part because you have a lot of white left progressive people who don't, they're not woken up about their own actions, you know, and, and you see it also in the government now we still have fucking black Pete here man. In the Netherlands. Yeah, like Pete say a bit about it. People might not know what it is. Yeah, but black Pete is this Dutch traditions. And it's black face. And it's all about, and the history of it is all about the humanization of the African people because that the, because that they could get away with all the terrible stuff they did in Africa. There's a whole psychological idea behind it, but we still do it. And that's some kind of a carnival tradition right the figure shows up, white actor, white person pokes on black face and it's kind of made fun of a caricature, a racist description of a stereotype that kind of the other is not part of you. No, no, I read it. I read they are trying to take it away just is that true or did you read anything. Yeah, but like we're trying to do this like since the wrong school man's like 10 years already. But the thing is, you know, every year around December we have the discussing this uglyness of social media and we getting used to it, but I've learned that every time you're fighting. You're just not you're fighting about something that's, that's deeper. That's that's beneath all of that. And the truth is, you have like a lot of mostly white people in the Netherlands, who are fed up that like we still getting more our voices you know their attitude is shut the fuck up you're not from here. Don't shut down. Don't talk too loud. And they expect that this would be the whole thing. And it has been for generations, but you have my generosity who say no, you shut the fuck up. This is my country and I'm not going back to my country, you go back to your own country. And that's the clash that we have been seeing. And it's very interesting time but it's also very scary because emotions can let to can also bring us to very bad places. And now this December is coming. And yesterday, you know, the thing is, what I, what I really admire about the United States is the way black people and people with immigration background have thought themselves to a place that when you would say some stupid, if, if, if you were as a white man compare a black person to a monkey in the United States, you would get fired. They accomplished that that doesn't happen like last, last year was this hillbale is radio guy who compared one, one beautiful black one, the Sylvain Simons politician. He was a monkey. So take it easy, so on. And he got away with it, and he's still making these programs. And, and we have like yesterday that was this guy, Johan Derksen I really, really hate that guy. And, and they've been making jokes in his pro, in his TV show with men's, they've been humiliating transgender people, people with immigration background, black people, and they get it, they keep getting away with it. And yesterday, they compared serious activists and rapper a quasi to sweat to pitch to black Pete. There was a picture of him. And there was a pledge pictures guy who said black Pete lives matter. And they show that and the guy, the white guy on TV said, Oh, that's a hero to me. That's what he said, that's a hero to me that guy. He compared him to their to the black rapper. And that was I was furious man. And the beautiful thing because of this whole black man life matter thing is that people are speaking up more. So I was speaking up and I see the post on Instagram and then the whole defund racism hash they came up and they actually they get to manage like two big companies they are not advertising anymore and they're going to talk to that guy. So that's a very beautiful powerful thing. Yeah. Why do you do theater I mean you came from there and I guess you could have worked in the hotel why, why, why do you do theater and in that time now where we and where we really questioning our fundamentals why, as you said, who am I where do I come from what am I'm doing here. So why do you do theater. It is, it's about being able to actually have an impact that makes the difference. That's a very powerful thing. They're not, they're not a lot of things as powerful as that. That's one of them. And it's also about being seen because I told you I felt like shit for a big part of my life like I was nothing like I was this, this, this little thing who's born to fail, you know, while I was a very smart, beautiful smart kid. And it's also because of a part of the way the system is treating us. And with theater, you actually have the ability to talk for one and a half hour without getting interrupted. And those are very interesting dialogue to me because then I have the time to think about what I want to tell and try to make you know trying to tell stories that are important you know, like, like, like the display I'm doing, see that the table where we was talking about. Yeah, you mentioned it. Tell us about what is, what is the idea, see that the table means. Yeah, symbolically in an imaginary way and in a real way, everybody sits at the table or in this. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's about having a fair place at the table upstairs. And the whole, the whole idea about this. You wrote it right. You wrote it and you act in it. I wrote it with more people. Yeah, I wrote it with like Nima Mahake. So this is my partner in crime and with the actors. And we wrote it together, but it was like some kind of writer's room work, where it was everybody was working under the premise we had. And it was that racism leads to inferiority complex, and that that leads to that someone who was born here is never going to be able to find its roots here. And, and the story was about the actors would tell that to their own experiences, and the experience of Kwame, that was the fiction line we wrote. And it was about this black, successful young lawyer who punched a white white man randomly one day, and he was in therapy, and in through the five scenes and that was the whole there was the, there was the important line to the four or five scenes closer to the essence of his trauma. And that was that he was discriminated. He had got through racism so badly the trauma was so big that that he, he punched a man on the day he heard he was going to have a child, and the fear of bringing a black child on this world that you would have to go to the same places, that that was his reason that was his pain and that we would have this beautiful monologue on the end of it about about this is being scared to do the same and what kind of terrible father would do that was very beautiful very, very real because it was it was our struggle and our pain. And, and of course we mix and do a lot about a lot of humor you know that the scenes of the actors and I write songs also I have some songs to get to the feeling. And the other scene, our own experiences was really about the absurdity of some fucking racist experiences we have been together so the combination of that. The lawyer line and the actors would say as like people like this is what we go through. And that had also a lot of humor in it. And that combination, it made that that the play were very well you know we got nominated for it. Yes, very successful. Yeah, it was important to listen to it. Yeah. Yeah, because you know the thing is, it's also our job as people with immigrant backgrounds to, to, you know, to like educate, because I can't imagine like, you know, I'm racist too man have some, I have some racist stuff done, you know, I'm purposely you know this whole system is a part of it. And, and that was that was very important and it had a lot of moving reactions of people. And you created a company with fellow actors or immigrants or how was it by your theater how did you. Yeah, I have I have this part of me. I have this. My colleague I'm working with. And we did a, we did a short movie together, got the secret, secret defense is an easy originally is a movie director. And we work on the short and got nominated for the students Oscars. And then I was like me you we're gonna we're gonna do stuff together. And he was always like this visionary guy I was like this guy will get things done. I just like to do. He came with the idea from I think we need to set our own shop. And then we started our own foundation called black sheep can fly and my friends also from Iran. And we do this with three other other partners Christina, and she's born in Lebanon so we are like all people with immigration background and we mostly tell stories about now you know stuff about racism and refugees and all those stuff. Incredible and I know not only you got nominated it was a film for the student Oscar. Also, the film then you were in became nominated as a foreign film nomination and so yeah yeah. It's an incredible story that you know of the experiences out of that, you know, cams and then getting into that great acting school that Holland in a way offered you a place, but also turned its back me while America is so close, you know, we very few can come in from Syria I think Germany took over over a million people I think it was 4,000 at the time and Syrians who were allowed to come to do America. And he was so so successful and contribute to that to the to the Dutch, Dutch culture in that time of Corona. You slow down, and you look at what you did, and you think what we're going to do. Did something happen did something for you became more conscious is it a different you different person are you. Did something needle move. Yeah, very, very, very, very, I could like advise everyone just every time you have like, because you know the college monsters and demons right but it's, it's really just picture just images and pictures you just they just keep coming back and I find what pictures what do you mean by a lot man like it was like, I would I would have this the traumatic moments of my life you know they would come back but you know some people my father and I just I just always want away from it. And, and I think that there comes a moment in your life that you will understand that all those emotion that you have put deep inside you, they're not that they're just buried alive and eventually, they will come and get you. And I, I learned it on, I learned that in a hard way I think but what hard way what do you mean. I became this. I was very emotional like I had this image of being this strong wise guy to myself, but which I also am but there's this child inside of me that's heard and very bad, and it also need attention. And that time the child came up you know, the child was like, it wouldn't have it you know and, and, and, and of course I was I was already therapy. And I discovered a lot you know I thought I had this inferiority complex that it was because of me being a refugee in the Netherlands, what, which was true, but it's all with it was also because of my relationship with my father. You know, and that, that, and that brought and I was always thinking about like what the fuck what's wrong with me you know why can I just get angry like I could go zero to 100 very quick. And I was, why was it this mad kid and I discovered that because I've been, I've lived for my through my whole childhood and, and I see pivots, pivots. Is it good? Is it. Puberty. Yeah. Puberty. Yeah. Sorry. I just lost the meaning of words. I, I, I realized that. Sorry, I lost where I was. No, no that the demons you face what images what did come up, you know, and you said in that time. Personal stuff. Yes, there were some personal stuff. You know and the discovery that I made my new play, it's all as all of us is going to be there, you know. So you wrote a play in that time of Corona. You wrote a monologue in the time of Corona I really discovered some very important information about myself about the truth I was telling myself. It was there were a lot of lies I would tell myself to just get, just to get by. And I faced those stuff. You know a lot of his personal and it's not it's really not that interested. It's all about, it's all about getting to like the bottom of your questions you know like, why am I like this you know and I had when I had those answers really empowered. I forgive like myself I forgive my father and I had, I had this beautiful conversations with so many people you know and I get to understand what's important for me, and who my true friends are. And, and after that when I recovered and that's now. I'm doing a play and I'm going to put all of this into it and I'm just going to give back you know I realized I've been through a lot, and everyone is been through a lot but I don't. It doesn't mean that if you come from a hard place that your life have to be hard that doesn't have to be true. You know that you actually have a choice you know you can do a lot of his choice you can choose for good. You can choose for facing your demands, and that's going to be the play about and that's a very important, very powerful message for me, and I hope for everyone to see the play. Do you think the way you do theater, you know you said you had work with your friends and your colleagues and you created the work and for film and also, you know, a place at the table as a company. So, do you think something will also change the way you produce create theater coming out of this time. Do you feel it's continuing or reinforcing what you already discovered, or is that something new. You mean the impact of the corona you mean right yeah will it be will the yeah will there be something different in your approach. Of course, because what I'm telling you, you know when you get to know yourself on that level. It's going to change your whole vision about everything. And to me, this the play I'm doing it calls unpredictable past, because I went looking back at myself like looking at an angry kid, because I, it's changed my view about who I was you know I thought I was like this angry kid but my anger it was right I was I was I wasn't. I thought I thought I was being a bad boy but you know I did everything in my power but it was never enough. But I mean it's like you said I'm going to use zoom I'm going to perform it outside in theaters I'm going to do it in the, I'm going to go to your home. I mean, will there be changes in form or the way you co create or how you co write it. Is there something where you feel something came clear to me, or do you feel no actually what we found was something that. Yeah, you know, it's very funny because we as artists, especially here in the Netherlands this this image of that we're like, it's like also we are like this extra wheel on the on the car you know, that's the image of the now right cabinet and that's that's their image. Yeah, but you know, in the quarantine time, the biggest proof is like, who, who could get like through those harsh time being inside without art. Really like without watching a movie without listening to a song, or I don't know like whatever. So that was a very big and it got me the power to be able to put to protect it in fight for that spot because I know like what we do is very necessary. I think like the answer to that to your question would be, I'm not going to do theater outside. I'm not all those stuff, but I just realized for me personally that I, I've been through these things and I have to dedicate my life to just entertain people just bring them new ideas that's that's that's going to be my my that's my narrative, you know, my whole thing. I hope is, I hope that's, I don't know that's that's that makes, makes a lot of sense. So the play you created a place at the table. Did you was it a collective work that as you said did you, the rehearsal process was, was it with the theater and you had a space for to go or do you, how did you create it. I was like, I created. I knew that I felt like anger about in racism it was loud December, I think it was like five, five years ago. I knew for sure I have to do it's my duty to do something about racism because I've been through it so long. So that and I was surrounded by great people because I wasn't as good as I am right now so I got very good help by name on my heart. I just all direct that people were like really helping us and watching us but the my into I had this intuition and it was I have to do something about this. And I had my friends. There were two black actors in my street I knew, and I knew I would. I want those guys and I was this white guy from Belgium and he had this real compassion when you talk about racism. And I picked them on base of those conversation I had with them. And then we were going to going to use this a book called the black man with a white heart. It's a very beautiful book about these two princes, first princess from Ghana that were brought in the Netherlands in 1837, I think. You know, just to get the knowledge and then one day go back to Africa so that they could help their own people, and these people actually existed so I wanted to use that part for for the seat at the table but it just didn't work and then we came to the whole But we did a lot of. I had this big interview, and we were like, eight of us he had the actors, and then you had this guy, you run the month was like, was this, it was a white young director and he was just going to help us. And that was very, very interesting because that first clash we had was on that table. And that was the banner my friend he was from Suriname is a black guy. He told about, I'm sorry, I'm this shit. And I'm never going to be a going on the way on the street. No, I'm going to bump your shoulder and he was very angry. And then you see like you ruin the wife, the white guy and he was like, Hey, but I don't get it. Why is he so angry. And then I understood like, All right. All right, there's a lot of anger but my only job is just how to like, make the audience understand where this pain is coming from. And I wanted to do it with balls, you know, I didn't want to go white walk on my toes. I want to just be, and it's funny because the one of the lines in the first scene is, I hit him because he was white. You want to hear that. And then he would just monologue about like, that how being discriminated to him it lets to be a racist also you know, and with a lot of conversation and then we came up with a line. That's the moment the important moment was that when we knew it's going to be about this fear to bring a black child on the road, then things started to roll and then the whole thing started. And of course, you know, I had like this, you know, sometimes you have to do research for for work and my life was research and the life of all the actors and the writers who are joining us. It was, I think like one of the reasons it was successful, it was really honest. Everyone who made that was like fed up with his whole racism thing. And that was the big power. That's the, that's, that was the reason that as a small group, we were able to sell out like the Amsterdam theater, like where 700 people come without a lot of promotions. But it was like the story was so important for the time we lived it. And that works very good. Yeah, we didn't really hear about it in the US. We should have we just have such a tunnel vision. We don't really know so much. It's a big island, but still it's an island. And this is an important contribution you made from your story and your artistic engagement and also to channel those. Yeah, sorry. Go ahead. No, no, no, no, go ahead. It's really, it's really one of my dreams that to especially that play like see that a table that we would like play this for for companies and we are trying for companies in the Netherlands. You know, like even working with a government because like a lot of people working every government institution. Everyone says we need more diversity when we look up at the places like they make the decisions. All whites. So that's a real problem and I hope like we could use this I honestly believe that we could like hold our hands together like with governments and artists and work at some really important social issues that we have. And it's one of my dreams also I don't know if the play will work in London or New York or a place like that. I would like do it for free just to try it out. Let's see we'll try to find something we'll try to find something for you and to see how people would react and see it. Yeah, yeah, that would be great. Why not, you know, the time I would love to do it like with with actors from there to tell their stories just have this the line of the lawyer and then just make the play. Again, that was like a dream. So it's kind of a testimonial documentary theater in a way where you then switch it, you know, with some narrative of that of the lawyer's story which you connected to it and it should be a universal story. So the idea would be to go. Yeah, in the Netherlands to say let me go to government institution inside factory inside companies. And that's like judges, teachers, people are working at the government decision makers, you know. The thing is, we have this, there was this thing in a paper that a judge thought that the lawyer was a criminal because it was black. Because he told the judge told him like, can you stand over there this your place and he was like, I'm like defending a guy. And like, yeah, like, I think like the image that black people can be successful. It's still not really there in subconscious of a lot of white people. And that's going to take some time. But like, I believe that we as artists, we could, we could like paint the picture that where we could go as a society, or we could paint the picture of someone's pain like layer by layer. And, and that's, we could, and then we could make great impact. When it comes to theater. Who are your heroes what inspired you. Who did you look up to as as mentors role models or artistic work writers companies in Facebook, who do you think is was important for you coming. Yeah, it's funny because, because because I'm a refugee kid, and I was, I had never, never I didn't have any dream to, to be a theater mix. I only want to be seen, you know, that's why I went through an accident. And then I realized, like, if I want to acting good stuff I have to write it myself because I'm in a white country. No, I will never get the opportunity. Sorry, I lost the question. What was the question. What, what is there a theater that inspired you are their master or company is something where you said, Hey, I want to be like this or that her or him this play or did you have a role model or make it up yourself. I didn't have my role models were like, I watched a lot of movies. So I really liked the movies were about something when I would learn something I learned a lot from movies. So I knew I could do the same but I didn't have like, I wasn't I always was struggling with the, you know, I love Shakespeare but I didn't understand like why the fuck would I do this play right now. The world is burning. So why would I do like a play from 1640 in, in Russia with, with three women who are just bored, you know, it didn't make sense to me so I directly I was like, No, I'm not going to do the old theater stuff they were living. I'm not, I want to try something new. And of course, in that way we had this this director and called Eric the fruit. I heard his name a lot because because he was like one of the first guys in the Netherlands, would actually write a play about our part in Afghanistan. We just go to Afghanistan, we six months of research, and he would write a play. And he started it and then, and I am part of a generation theater makers that we are telling our own stories. And it works very good. There's really a big hunger from it also from the audience and we had a couple of success. But to be like, having an example like a theater maker. I didn't have one I had just a lot of big great movies in my head are the movies. I discovered I love movies and I went to the IMDB and top 250. I watched all of these movies and I start from from above, like of course the Godfather Sasha redemption. And I came then I see all of those movies. But for me, I think the most important part was my inspiration was that that there was a place I could talk and I would be heard. That was the whole thing that that was really attractive to me. That was the part that you said part of it. Yeah, the part of it could like have impact that people would listen to me that part. Yeah, what you said earlier it's an hour and a half, and people have to listen there in the chair. Yeah, yeah, and that was it theater can do and. Yeah, it's always been a vehicle for me know theater is it's always been like, but here I can go to that place you know make sure that I can tell those stories. What in the time now the time now did you read or did you listen to music. You said, I realized as so many. Why are this important because it's Corona time where would we be without that. So what did you listen to what did you read what did you how did you engage what was inspiring to you. I cooked a lot. I cooked, I created a lot of food. I started to cook it and I was listening to like a lot of podcasts. And that was what I was doing, because, because I'm a musician also, when I'm making music, I don't really listen to a lot of music. And to guarantee I just started I think maybe somehow some way I wanted to get away from art also, and I just focus on the art of cooking just making stuff like understanding how that works. So, no, I didn't watch like something special like I saw this Lebanese movie coffinion. The little boy. Yes, the little boy. Yeah, that's really on his own. Yeah, yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, of course, the boy has swiveling zone. There you go. That's why it really ties me. Incredible story. Beautiful. Those stuff I think. Yeah, that's amazing. We're coming a bit closer to to the end of our talk. Let's say it's like, yeah, if you had to talk to someone, the young someone just getting into acting school and Corona would happen like or two artists or theater makers in America in Chicago or in Seattle or people who listen to us from India and South Africa, Indonesia, Hong Kong, which is in such a complicated moment also now you know what what what do you say, how do you use the time of Corona where we are in now even with the restriction and what what theater should we be doing what what is of significant what should we be focusing on. I think like to me, I would focus. I focus to stories where is, where is, where is it kind of like the urgency behind it. Like a society, let's talk about society and, and humanly. That's very important that you feel that that stories, but that stories has to be story of now, and how person and it doesn't have to be private, but it's, there has to be something personal in it for you that you wouldn't be able to to sleep if you do this story, if you wouldn't tell the story. That's very important to me, like when you also look at like movie directors who were very good in the beginning of their careers and now we just like to just telling stories and I just credit scripts. That makes a very big difference. If you want to make theater I think it's like find, find what's your fascination and make sure that you go through like a personal experience but you always tell something that's universally so that's, you know, you don't get any private. That's what I was saying and, and I think like, if you like, you look like me if you like from you have a migration background is. I think like the moment you realize the impact you actually have for just being someone with the color and just staying on a stage and doing like a play of a guy who's empowered. That thing with role in 30 years some child has seen that and it's going to affect him you know because when I grew up all my, all my people I would look up to in the media they were all black because there weren't a lot of people with who look like me you know. So I love like Chris Tucker like all this black dancer wash out all these black actors, though those those guys were my examples you know, and I think like tell your own story. You know, prove someone else to tell his and so we all would engage more. Yeah, that's very, very, very good to twice and to tell your own story. As you said earlier to a play that's needed now, you know, and not something that perhaps was right centuries ago and don't do karaoke where you just we sing something but it's not an original and most probably not even as good as the original. But they are sometimes they are better and it happens but what is of important than to be to be visible and I like the idea. Say you know people will have to listen to you. And if you also tell a serious story a painful story but also as you said there's a humor which might be, you know, we hear a lot whether it's Indonesia or India is it's from South Africa where we heard from that. Basil John the years of the apartheid you know he was able to get away with things you know from censorship with this topic that we normally couldn't. So, and they said how significant the contribution of the arts was to change you are part of that worldwide community of artists who so painful personal experience but you channel that your anger and you said I'll find a way to do it and to tell it. So people understand for a moment where it comes from. So this is a very, very strong and powerful story. Let's see if you should find a way to get you here once things open. And it's a great story and it was, you know, people listen it in the Netherlands. And so it should be enough reasons for us to also to be interested and open to so really thank you for sharing. Of course. In the time and maybe look up what the Segal Center is and maybe other talks on how around we did. We have coming to an end of the week, you know, and we are just finished the lineup for next week. We have Muriel Miguel and Gloria Miguel from the growing spider women's theater the Native American indigenous theater company that for decades in New York twice to do work. Don't have their own theater. They should. There should be a place for them and maybe the time of Corona and the revelation will help to get theaters like them and what they represent more listen to. We have a Danieli Francisco from the Caribbean for Martinique. He will tell us what's happening in the Caribbean and in Martinique what it means to be an artist. They are the time of Corona, the great, great Eugene Barba from the Odin Theater National Treasure, a living legend in his work since the 60s and 70s and 80s who has defined also what we think about theater and as a point of reference like in the ship and you look at the stars where you navigate wherever you go away from it or to it but he is one of those those great lights and and Paul Price and American actor and film actor and director. We'll talk about his experience as an actor going through Corona and what theater making makes for him and how the system feels him I liked also what you said you know it's a white country there. I will never get a role so of course I have to do my own. I'm very different you know to to everybody else but for you to say now of course it's a how would I get a role and we heard that from Woody King who runs the federal city said when I was a young black actor. No I wouldn't get a role I wouldn't also get in I was black it was impossible and and like as we said to say to a fish say you and water the fish will say what's water. No you're in water. And David said that so famously and and then we have a Liva. Yassi a great playwright poet also and a documentary filmmaker from Syria she lives in Berlin. And she will tell about her her experience of trying also to bridge identities as someone does so someone again thank you so much. Thank you guys so much howl around for having us another week. G. J. V. J. and thea and and to our single team and the son young and to you the listeners really for taking time out. There is a lot of thank you very busy busy in these days strangely enough and also so many keep on working also from home. There's a lot to us that we have audiences such a diverse audience such audience from all the states in the US and so many international countries and that is something we need to listen to voices of artists they have been on the right side of history on the right side on that complex struggle for freedom and liberties. And and we are making a great contribution and again the day to day commemorating that change is possible to think about this happening. Jun teams is an important day and and also a reminder of why why we do art and why it is significant I like what you said everybody who is at home now can go out. It's a great way to listen to music looks at looks at films or theater recording it's so strongly connected so it is a clearer than ever and even so we also being told we are non essential and we can go out. So thank you so much as someone and all of you guys listening. We are the mask. Take your distancing we do not know what will happen with this virus only 1% has immunity in the moment 70% would be needed for herd immunity. So it is still out there and I think a virus doesn't care but Trump or other say now it's okay you open up. It's no longer dangerous it's not true we still have to behave but if we are careful. Nothing bad will happen and we follow those simple rules so thank you very much and bye bye in Saman have a great dinner in the Netherlands and really thank you and to Alessandra for connecting.