 The ruling all-progressive Congress APC accuses the People's Democratic Party PDP of playing dangerous politics with banditry. And on the issue of rejection of the Electoral Act Amendment Bill, the Senate holds action to override President Mohamed al-Bahari. This is Plus Politics. I am Mary Anna Cullen. The all-progressive Congress APC has accused the People's Democratic Party PDP of playing dangerous politics with banditry. APC in a statement by the National Secretary of its Caretaker of Extraordinary Convention Planning Committee Senator John Abbanudaira noted that suggestions by the PDP that President Mohamed al-Bahari's administration was insensitive to the activities of bandits in the part of the country should be seen as politically motivated, callous and insensitive to victims and troops. The ruling party stated that the facts that the PDP was playing politics with the activities of bandits and insurgents which had their formative stages during the PDP's reign exposes the party as unpatrotic. Now, earlier in the week, we noticed that the PDP had accused the APC of being insensitive to the plight of Nigerians. So joining us at this cost is a legal practitioner of Costa Abdul Amid, Tunji Abdul Amid. Thank you very much, Tunji, for joining us. Thank you very much. Yes. Tunji, this back and forth between the APC and the PDP has been ongoing. Now, I don't know if you have been following the news of the protests that have been going on in the North just a few days ago. What am I saying? Just yesterday, Mr. President was in Borneo just before he got there. There was an explosion. And we've seen a line up of these activities happening back and forth. Let's leave the APC and the PDP out of it. Just look at the administration and how they've handled the issue of banditry or even fighting terrorism in the country. What's your score? I think I was called the government 20%. It done badly and poorly in terms of security. They promised lots, but they delivered it. I have not seen what they have done in terms of security. That's what I'm concerned. Once the government fails in terms of security, it has failed in totality. There's nothing to get involved. When the government came in, we have only one security, is it Boko Haram or something? When they came, we have so many of them now. We have banditry, we have Estmen, we have this and that, and they are just growing from one in confidence in our world. They are growing in confidence because they are now attacked with the life. You can see yesterday, the president was in Borneo streets and before his face, they did their acts. I think the government has performed badly in terms of security. Talking about the politicisation of this issue, because of course it's the he said, you said, she said, you know, pointing of fingers between the APT and the PDP. But let's look at the politicisation of this issue. Now, when banditry began, the government refused at some point to deal with it head on. But then, of course, we saw reactions at different points. I remember when the governor of Ondo state said that they put a ban on open grazing, especially on government grazing areas for these so-called bandits at the time. And they were saying, and then the government reacted. We also saw pockets of these violence and people were asking that the government took a stand of sorts at the time to deal with the issue. But then nothing was really done. But then it was also an opportunity for the PDP to look good in the eyes of the average Nigerian. So if the APT is saying that the PDP is politicising the issue, can the same be said about the APC? I don't understand what they mean by politicising the issue. Because if there is no opportunity for them to criticize or play politics, the home plate, if they have been proactive in terms of providing security, if they have been proactive in terms of doing the needful, if they have been proactive in terms of what you call, in quotes, what you call, what's it called? Banditry. I don't know what is Banditry. I don't know what those are, they are all criminal, father and consign. In fact, I want to believe that what we call Banditry today are probably the former Boko Harams or some of them that transform into this Banditry or what are called. They give them that Banditry name in an attempt to civilise what they are doing. So I don't, it's usually not bad, the government will have sympathy for those committing crimes. What can you say that means they are compromised as far as I'm concerned? Because we have seen the situation whereby a governor will come and give excuses why people are committing crimes. We have seen the situation whereby members of the cabinet or the president will give excuses of why they are committing crimes. Even the president has given excuses as to why people are committing crimes. So if you can be doing that, what is we call it? We call it sympathy for those who are committing crimes. So as far as I'm concerned, whether they are playing politics or not, the question is, is there insecurity? Yes, as far as I'm concerned. Has the government done enough to curtail this insecurity? No, as far as I'm concerned. So if you say that, how are you playing politics? Just like Erdogan said that time, don't give us a room to play politics, fix the insecurity. When you fix insecurity, we will not play a game with you. But then there has been a lot of politicking around this issue and tiptoeing of course. Remember when we the media had been told not to call them a certain name or tag them, a certain ethnic group, which is all fair and well. But then the activities of these people were not addressed as terrorism. Now a court of competent jurisdiction has said these people have been declared terrorists. What is the government in dealing with this issue of following in that light to make sure that terrorists are being clamped down on, especially the ones that are dealing with our people and killing them, in their numbers? You see, I am not even concerned about whatever the tag them, whether they're terrorists, whether they're bandits or whatever. What I'm concerned about is about the government being active in terms of ensuring that there is security in the country. So there's nothing in the name. If you call them there, whatever you call them, I am not doing anything they can say. But I usually call them acts. It does matter, doesn't it? Because if a group of people are tagged bandits or thieves or a known gunman, they're not necessarily terrorists. So you cannot necessarily attack them as you would attack terrorists without having our soldiers or security agents tagged human rights abusers. So it does really matter if you look at it realistically, doesn't it? Yeah, I'll give it to you to an extent. But what I'm trying to say is that, look, whether or not you call them terrorists or whatever, it is what you do that matters. Since then they've been declared terrorists. What has changed? Nothing. So what is the difference? That's what I'm talking about. So it's not about, we are told that they were not being attacked by, they're not using a Tukano gear against them because they are not terrorists. Now they've been declared terrorists. We are not hearing the use of the Tukano gear on them or anybody. So we just put the Tukano gear, we just get them somewhere, they are just resting and then join themselves there. We just waste them on their thoughts and concerns. So you know what, if a government is so proactive in terms of providing security, there is nothing you can do. What I would most criticize, whether even those who are not from PDP, who are ordinary engineers wants to criticize the government. And that is the problem we are having in this country. Once the government does not want you to criticize them, but once you criticize, and the government does say criticism as qualities, there won't be a solution. Government must accept the reality that they are not doing well in terms of providing security. Once they accept that, that's when they are able to say, we have a problem here. But when the government is deceiving itself to say, we have done enough to provide security to the country, then you can't get a solution. You must tell yourself the truth, agree with what people are saying, find a way around it, look for a solution, and then move forward. But if you are denying it, there can be a solution to that, to that thing security as far as I'm concerned. It appears the government is compromising, if you are trying to give excuses for why people are committing crime. Talking about compromise, that's where the people are. But after all this, they are all criminal. Well, talking about being complicit to, you know, being part of it, this is where the PDP comes in. The PDP is saying that the silence on the part of government in terms of placing value on the lives of people who have been, the lives that have been lost over, you know, time, due to this issue of so-called banditry, government seems not to, you know, place value on those lives. He's saying that the silence seems to be some form of, you know, collaborative one. And that's why they're saying that government is complicit. Again, I mean, I want to know exactly from your, I mean, perspective, why you think there is a challenge with government dealing with this issue, because everybody is asking the same question. What do you think the challenge is? Nigeria does have great security forces. We have a great joint task force. We have a police that is questionable, but of course they try to keep the peace to some extent. But could it be political will? Could it be the lack? I don't know. I'm trying to understand. What do you think the challenge is? This is Christmas Eve. We're still talking about the level of insecurity. A bomb went off yesterday, almost before the president landed in Borneo State. And we're celebrating Christmas. How safe are we in this country, really? It might not necessarily be those of us who are in Lagos or in Abuja. But what about the people who are at the lines, you know, where these banditries or whatever, these terrorist activities are taking place? You see, like I said, they are political, which is one of the reasons. Ethnic sentiments, religious sentiment and other sentiments are part of the reasons. Because, you know, the political will is in a sense that look, all this is why people are killing people. And we have been told people are being directed. And we have not seen anybody in court or being punished or facing criminal charges in court. You see, we are doing the same thing the same way and we are expecting different results. There's no way to have a different result. One, there's no political will. Two, we are not doing enough in time of providing adequate facilities for those or even welfare for those who are fighting the war. In other words, the ministries that are fighting the war or in court are complaining about their welfare. If you don't take care of those who are fighting, there's no way they will give their full or all to the fight. We are not having enough, we don't have enough, what's it called, personnel. And the little we have are being used in a different, in a way that will not help the society. For instance, now, we have insecurity in the country where so many people are looking for us, people that will give them security. There we have over 100 armed policemen and the, what's it called, mobile policemen in Margaret Street, sitting for four days. They are sitting there doing nothing. And we have areas where they need security and they are there doing civil matter and civil thing and same things. So when we start to do things the same way, we can't get results. And like I said earlier on the game, until government realizes the fact and accept the fact that look, we are not doing well. We are failing this responsibility and think otherwise we may not move forward. Because the government is deceiving itself. Because the time they say, the banditry or whatever has been designated, they've killed them, they've attacked them, they've sent them away. I think, I'm sure they have not done anything. They, those who are committed, they kind of change their tactics, but the government is not changing its tactics. Talking about that, the governor of Kaduna stage recently was in the news talking about the fact that there are no repentant terrorists. That the only way they can repent is when they go to their creator, obviously, after they've been killed. And a lot of, you resonated with most people, even though some people were criticized it. But then there are people who also sympathize with these bandits, like the likes of Sheikh Gumi who has been taking healthcare, who's been taking education to these bandits. And every time I talk about this, it makes me wonder how he's able to quickly get access to them. But our security agents are unable to reach these people and decimate them. He's making a case for them. The last time I spoke with him, he said that these people, they rose up as a result of poverty, lack of education. They've been abandoned by the government. So really, and the government here might not necessarily be just the Buhari administration. We're talking about, you know, subsequent governments we've had in this country. Should the government not be starting at the root cause of this problem instead of, you know, putting a plaster on the cancer? Yeah, that's exactly the point I was making, that as long as we allow sentiment and illegal sentiment as other sentiments to be clawed our responsibility, we may not get it anyway. It's a situation whereby you see people killing people, that have killed so many people, they are arrested and you are told they are being considered for honesty. They are being considered for, what's it called? Motifation or give them something, allowances or something for them to recede to life. And those who have been killed or those whose family, the relative of those who have been killed are still languishing with what they call IDP and then nothing else is being done to them. I don't know the difference between whether those who are committed crime are more for the family, more than those who are victim of even their acts, because as it is today, they consider they are applied more than that of those who are not even a criminal. They're victim, you see, that is a situation where we find ourselves. So until those areas are corrected, we may not be able to get it anyway. Again, those areas corrected, how do we force the hand? I really don't want to use that word, but how do we really force the hand of this government? Because we keep talking about lack of political will, but there is political will. To do with other issues that benefit our leaders directly, especially the politicians. Why is there no political will to deal with issues that are killing Nigerians in their numbers? The numbers have become just numbers these days, no more value added, it's just become normal headlines on our national dailies. So where do we go from here? The point is that, look, it's our political way. You and I cannot go on then and start taking decisions against those who are killing. Those in government that want to take action, and they're not willing to do that. What do we do? We have to put pressure on them, even when you put pressure on them, and nothing's been done, because when a country whereby those in government see them as a semi-go, and they are half-anomical, the concerns are second to none, and they have the power to do and undo. We are in this country where people, or are all entitled to civil contracts by borrowing money from banks, who have been harassed, and why those who are, and their name being published by the fact of a name ashamed, but those who are committed crime, the afternoon federation is telling us they can't publish their name because it will be contracted to the law. You can see the contradiction that they got. So if you are protecting the criminals, you are giving them more courage to do more. And that's why we are where we are today. So we need to, the government needs, it's based on the government, the security is on the head and the government should do more. There's nothing we can do then to talk and put pressure on the government. And so that's the lesson we can do, except if we, I'm very sure that when a country whereby government don't, those in government don't design, those in government don't, those, the National Assembly or National Assembly don't impeach governor or president for violating the criminal, because as far as I'm concerned, like the insecurity of this country is violation of the constitution because the basic responsibility of government is welfare and security. Section 14 is very clear in that regard. And that is a big priority as it is today. And even in a civilized country, the president will have a design or will have an impeach. But in our own country, it's excuse, excuse, excuse, excuse for them. Finally, before I let you go, yes, you said in civilized country, and we're in 2021, these leaders visit these so-called civilized and progressive countries and they speak and talk tough and they sound all grand and dandy, but they come back here and do the same old, same old. I don't know, you're a lawyer. Some people complain about the slow delivery of justice by our judicial processes in Nigeria. There are also people who say that even the instruments of democracy have been clamped down upon. So it puts the hand of the average Nigerian behind their backs, sometimes even maybe cuffed. And so it looks like we're unevenly able to put pressure on our government. So how do we even start? Where do we even start to do it? That's the point. We can't even put all the blame on the judiciary. It seems judiciary has been controlled by the secretary. It seems the same judiciary has been victimized by the secretary. It seems the same judiciary has been harassed by the secretary. So we are in the mess of the country in all aspects. The justice system is not working because there is no independent might. Justice system is not working because you are not free to do what you want to do. Because the secretary controls security agencies in the country. And they use it to harass other people who are trying to check them. If you are a member of the NSEP and you are trying to say the government is not doing this well, you're not doing that well, the next thing you will see is that you see an EFCC or other agency of government looking at whether it's running after you, rightly or wrongly. Should that not make our politicians have their hands clean? Because there is that saying that those who have to come to equity have to come with clean hands. So if the EFCC or whatever is released on them, they should make sure that they have no skeletons. Before you point a finger, you should be ready for the aftermath. So should that also, the owners not be on our politicians to have a clean slate? I'm not saying they can't pursue that. What I see most times is that it's only when you criticize the government or when you talk against the government that they go after you. And at the end of the day, nothing will come out of the case. Did you know Melae, they went after him so many times. Salahki was went after him so many times. So many of them like that. They are all free now because they are nothing against him. So I'm telling you, they may not have something, but when you are in government and when you are enjoying the government, you do not think you can't do anything wrong. As far as they see you as a member of the party and a member of their caucus and then they protect you. So in a situation where we have inequality and the laws have been applied in differently, then that society cannot grow. We cannot survive this situation. So what we need to do is to apply the law the way it should be applied. We need to do things the way it should be done. Because you see what we say usually is that the everything is not about usually. For usually to give a deliver judgment on the part and do justice in matter. The prosecutor, I parallel in criminal matter, the prosecutor who is under the executive must present proper case. Are they doing that? Are they giving us, are they doing proper investigation? Are they presenting a solid case before the court? For the court not to, for the accused not to have a way to escape? Sometimes when they grab that charge, you see the charge with no post. Sometimes I think it's deliberate to give room for that person to escape. Sometimes it's incompetent but nobody will be punished. So if you are not punished for wrongdoing, you continue to do it. So when a country will be able to condone everything and that's what I mean. When somebody say the government is condoning a community, I will not blame that person. You are right to say it because it appears so. Because you are not doing it like, why can't you even think of giving a message to those people who are people? As far as I'm concerned, these are the reasons why we are not moving forward. We need to do a way with all these so that we can move forward. Well, Tundji Abdul Ahmed is a legal practitioner. We want to thank you very much and we're going to have you on our next segment. But stay tuned, everybody. We'll be right back after this break and we will be talking about the Senate's move to override President Buhari if it's a go or no go. Stay with us.