 Hi, I'm Mary Harrell for tan books. There's no question that the sacrament of matrimony is under attack You may now kiss the bride has become hey We'll just get in the nulman if it doesn't work out, right? And while it's easy to blame the outside culture for the Disrespective marriage and the demise of it We've got to look at what's been happening inside the church as well And that's just what author John Clark is doing with his new book be trade without a kiss defending marriage After years of failed leadership in the church John is both an author and a speechwriter He has authored two previous books on fatherhood and written hundreds of articles about Catholic family life and apologetics For the National Catholic Register Seaton magazine and Catholic Digest John and his wife Lisa know just a little bit about marriage and family life They have nine children and have been married going on three decades. My goodness John kick things off for us with that title It takes some guts to say that the church has failed at any topic, but especially at defending marriage. Why do you make that claim? so It is it's off title, but I thought it was appropriate and you know I came with a title and a friend mentioned to me said boy, that's that's pretty rough And I thought yeah, maybe something about that but the more the research that I did the more I thought that title was warranted The problem is is that We ultimately the argument I make in the book is this That there are seven sacraments But only one of them stands under what I call unrelenting scrutiny so None of us is ever really called upon to prove the validity of his baptism, right? I mean, I've never heard of that or Prove confirmation was correct or for that matter. How about a penance 20 years ago? It was invalid and yet for matrimony We're constantly trying to defend it And I thought you know the church in some sense the church is a primordial sacrament and We the church needs to respect the fact that you know, it has to uphold marriages not not find ways and I'll give you a quick example. I'm sure we'll get to this but So let's say that my wife and I after 30 we you know 30 31 years of marriage Talk to a priest and say, you know father I don't know if our marriage is valid or we're thinking about it a moment is impossible a Standard response and I don't know how many what percentage of these responses would go this way but the standard responses Well, let's get it a brochure about anomalies. Let's see if you can check any of these boxes That's a standard response it's not reconciliation and Yeah, it's pretty big problem So I'll give you an example so years ago wasn't wasn't too long maybe four or five years ago But there was a priest. I want to say on Arizona, but I'm not sure The the place doesn't actually matter, but there was a priest who Had been baptizing with a formula. We baptize you we baptize you now That's invalid because it's I because the I meaning Jesus, right? So when the bishop found out that the priest had been doing this for apparently years, he sent out almost almost frantically sent out a An email or some, you know directive from from his office and said look if you've been baptized to buy This priest come in and you know, let us know we'll set something up because you need to be validly baptized In other words, it's pretty big deal to get the sacraments, right, right? so Why is a matrimony treated differently? So if the same thing it happens so if the same thing happens with couples Why are we pulling out? Anomaly brochures in the first place does that make sense? Yeah, like it's a vacation at Costco just here. See if this fits your lifestyle Yeah, it's really sad and in the back of you know, sometimes these are in the back of You know, you see this brochures in the back of churches and I'll say there's there's a brochure that one of the dioceses has It's called select it says on the front selecting the grounds as Though we're picking out coffee Selecting the grounds like so many boxes we can check and some of these brochures are pretty bad So they'll say well, you know back when you got married. What was your state of mind? What about this? What about that? Seriously 30 heart 31 years ago. That's a long time and some people have their marriages annulled well beyond that that that time frame So my argument to begin with is look what happened to reconciliation? What happened to saying, okay? If your marriage weren't valid, but if you have some doubt about that, well, let's you know, let's let's you know fix that You know, there's a procedure for doing that But I think that that that is why I say That that the betrayed without a kiss is is appropriate. It I do I like saying that I do not I am a I go to daily mass I mean, I'm in Florida. So unless there's a hurricane or at least and I are a daily mass So yeah, that's what I want I just simply want to see that that matrimony treated as a sacrament and I think that it's we've we've we've largely failed the leadership of the church not that every member of the leadership of course, but The leadership of the church has largely failed in the respect to protect the sacrament of matrimony John, where did you see or could you pinpoint maybe it just in the timeline in the last 60 years, maybe where did you see this change? Either in your own experience or in interviews that annulments almost like like abortion on the Democratic platform safe legal and rare, right? annulments used to be that sort of what we don't like them, but they're there and Yet now they are part of mainstream conversations about marriage in the Catholic Church Where did you see this sea change the shift in attitudes towards their frequency? Well, that's really the question, right? So it's great question So in the late 1960s There were approximately per year about 350 annulments, you know as an annual number 350 Wow By the late 80s it had grown to 70,000 annually So you're talking about a number going from 350 to 70,000 within basically 30 years, right? Or I'm sorry less than I'd be even it'd be less than that it'd be more like two decades, right about 20 years So the reason that I started writing this book was is that a friend of mine was going through You know potential divorce and he started asking my advice and I said he would mention things to me like well, you know in the church You know in most dioceses you have to get I think it's every diocese actually you have to get a civil divorce Prior to an annulment hearing So you have to come in divorce civilly before you can determine if your marriage is sacramentally valid Now that's actually exactly right. It's shocked like it when he's first when he told me I didn't believe him. I said I said that that can't be right. Well, of course it is correct Where it all began was in the late 1960s. There was a petition to adopt what's called the American procedural norms and I go into detail about the book. There's there's a there's a lot of there's a lot of detail, but suffice it to say that the American procedural norm has made it easier to Have a finding of nullity Right annulment. It's not a great word actually because it finding of nullity is it's much more technically accurate so That basically did it so the so which so within a year following the adoption of the American procedural norm the numbers went up, I believe Over 5,000 in the year following so in other words you went almost immediately from 350 to over 5,000 and So that to me was the key thing But then what tends to what happened from there was they were just getting started because then as I just mentioned It rose over 70,000 in the year So you're talking about having if you think about the math there You talk about having 140 that because you have two people and marriage obviously, right? You have 140,000 people have their marriage annulment in a year That's What words should we use for that because I don't think staggering quite does it? You're talking about the numbers are there. They're frankly shocking and so What's the response been well so far? the response of Many of the bishops Has not been what's going on in other words you and I are harassing having a conversation like well, what's going on? Well, that's a really good conversation to have right and Yet, I wonder if that actually goes on and I think ultimately what happens is is that I think that you know people come into Their parish to speak to the priest and I think maybe they've had the civil divorce and then they want to go back to mass and Then it's what conversation of well, maybe we can maybe we can you know get get in an omen through I think that that's probably how many of these begin Here's the problem Matrimony, you know, we have that scene in the Gospels a recount of the Gospels where Jesus institutes the Eucharist and many people walk away and Assurance the Apostles and asks them if they're going to leave too and of course we know, you know the answer of the Apostles and Ultimately many people regarded the Eucharist as a difficult teaching. It's a hard teaching right Now the sacraments are our beautiful teaching, but they can't be hard teachings Many people don't like they don't enjoy going to confession So the idea that that is the normal way for God to forgive sins. It's a hard teaching for them It's a beautiful teaching, but it could be a hard teaching. And so the job of the leadership of the church is to stand by the sacraments and Whether that strikes one as a beautiful hard teaching because if you simply are not following the sacraments And defending them with everything you can It creates a lot of chaos So it just to put it mildly so that that's essentially a problem But I just gave you the long answer to the question But largely it was in the late 1960s I would also stress that a lot of times people sort of laid the problem at the feet of the Second Vatican Council in this particular case That is actually that actually was not the impetus for the changes. It was the American procedural norms You might say that it was you know the sort of the spirit of Vatican II But really if you're looking at the documents and I go over this in detail The second Vatican Council could have phrased things more clearly But marriage was not redefined by the second Vatican Council It was simply and so and again, you don't see the numbers go right from you know The mid 60s it was the late 60s in 1970 where we started to see the numbers increase Also, if we're if we're in the 60s, we'll stay there for a minute We'll talk about a manna vitae of course Pope all the six encyclical on human life and marriage and contraception largely and the rejection of it I had known this maybe on the periphery But reading your book really brought it into such clarity the rejection of Humana vitae came from within the church It came this came from a professor at the Catholic University of America, and it didn't it didn't stop there certainly tell us a bit about that so you had a lot of dissent but but probably the the The most vocal dissenter was named father Charles Kern taught at Catholic University, and I believe it was the day human vitae was released might have been the day after it was like 24 hours after the release of your money vitae He took objection to it called the press and said, you know, he didn't he didn't buy into it The thing we have to remember about a human vitae is is that you money vitae was simply restating what the church had taught since You know many things Since the ink was dry as Dr. William Marster puts it since the ink would before the ink was dry on the New Testament the church's help this help this and So for him to say well, I don't like what's being taught Well, his problem wasn't with you money vitae so much as it was with scripture tradition castee Kenobi You know half a dozen sego calls You know again the fathers of the church so But anyway in any case father Charles Kern took it upon himself to raise a stink when it came to dissenting with you money vitae a lot of other priests joined in The interesting thing about that for our purposes of this book here would be is that The church has consistently maintained infallibly That's the primary purpose of matrimony is the is the procreation and education of children So when you have an objection you money vitae you're essentially your your ultimate objection is not to an encyclical It's to the sacrament of matrimony itself and That's the key part here. So if you're not really going to going along with it There there is with the problem wise but what father current was not alone. This became a very popular opinion And when we go back to the title of my book, we might consider the fact that Father current could have been fired. In fact, I think I think if they try to fire him And then there was a student protest or something and he stayed on for teaching another 20 years or so well That's 20 years worth of heresy. How do you so how do you bounce back from that? So I think that there was a failure to police. There's a failure in the part of the the American bishops to police heretics and Sadly, it wasn't the only case But it was certainly that was that was a significant problem Johnny make a great connection in the book between Frequency disbelief and respect for all of the sacraments and that you can't have Disrespect and disbelief in one sacrament happen without a correlation with another one or with all of them and your primary ones here between the Eucharist and Marriage go into that for us So ultimately I would look at it this way. So it's very simple words matter So are we are we saying that words matter or that they do not so I Do matters this is my body matters And I think ultimately, you know right now we are seeing a Crisis and a crisis in Eucharistic belief. I think that's fair to say and So yeah, I've seen different numbers a third of you know, Catholics don't believe in the Eucharist two-thirds Don't believe in the real presence. Whatever the numbers are the numbers are if they're at all if they're there at all the numbers are high But the problem is is that When you're not defending one sacrament, you're really not defending any of the seven, right? The seven sacraments They're symbiotic they they that's that's how they're structured and so when you create a confusion At least with the sacrament of matrimony like was it valid? We don't want to leave the faithful in a position where they're asking questions like was that sacrament valid? That's very that's very bad. That's not the way that Jesus drew this up And so that creates a huge worry. It's a huge it's a huge concern for the faithful But ultimately it comes down to this one thing words matter. This is my body This is my blood those words matter and the connection between the Eucharist and by the way I I should say that I actually believe that the best part of this book is the part that I didn't write It was it was a forward written by Catherine Godfrey Howell who is a PA who is a doctorate in Canon law and she actually goes through this Very clearly very succinctly. It's a beautiful forward And she talks about this in detail the connection between the Eucharist and matrimony and it's it's you know It's beautiful and I'm hoping that the powers that we actually see that connection because I think that So right now we have a Eucharist revival going on in the church But I think that if that is not accompanied by a matrimonial revival, I don't think it bears much fruit I don't want to say that but I think that's reality and I because I think that People get that idea the problem now is of course is Not as you know, they say that there aren't as many anomalies as they used to be. Yeah, that's true They're also far fewer marriages marriages exactly and so there are fewer marriages to a no and You know at the I highlighted in the book that that you know within my lifetime or so There were over 400,000 marriages annually in the Catholic Church In the year 2020 there were less than 100,000 So you're talking about 75% fewer marriages Today or in 2020 then then there were 50 years prior That's a problem. So people say well, there are fewer in all months now Of course, I'm gonna write at a certain point. They're they're just a few or two and also it's a problem And so what does that tell me? It tells me that many people made a lady aren't even taking marriage seriously They're not taking it seriously because it didn't seem to be taken very seriously when it came to a knowing And my shot I get married if we're just gonna get the filmed anyway, and it's a problem People are getting married. So yeah, the numbers are there. Yeah, what's the point? Talking about people preparing for marriage and the so-called pre pre Kena programs across the the country I'm sure there are great ones, but there are a lot of really awful ones as well I remember the people the couple that did the pre Kena for my future husband and I Told us that we didn't have to be open to life as long as we were open to Being generous with our community and being generous in friendships, right? Isn't that really good? Yeah, really sound Warming heartwarming. Yeah, so much so much diversity so much justice so much compassion and yet no dogma Jaw-droppingly bad stuff across the country How do people like that? Find themselves in charge of pre Kena programs in our American diocese so there was a there was a I Don't know what you'd call this maybe like a trial balloon for Expanding pre Kena to like 16 months or or 18 months or something. It's pretty long But let's do a long pre Kena because it was basically the way that was marketed are at least suggested would have been that it is a Sort of a way to evangelize which I get the idea. I get the good intention but the problem is is that we people have a natural law right to marriage and I don't and I by the way I don't think that 16 months is is fair for lack of a word. I don't think it's just These are two people in love the fact of the matter is is that if the primary purpose of marriage is the procreation education of children Why are we waiting six months to begin? You know, I wrote a piece in the register some years ago and I was married. I was only 21 which I guess is I guess is young didn't feel young Honestly, I met the girl I loved and I wanted I would have gotten married at 18 but you know, I went to college and whatever but I got married at 21 and People sometimes think well, that's really young and they'll they'll they're not shy a lot of times people are not shy about telling you But you know and then they'll say well, you know, do you have the money? Do you have this and that and ultimately What they're really objecting to I think in a way is where you might have a lot of kids I at least that's what I was hearing like you might you know, you might have a lot of children Well, Lisa and I understood Very well That the primary purpose of marriage was the procreation and education of children We understood that quite well and we wanted to get on with it and We have nine children. So I guess we did a pretty decent job But the point is is that to wait 16 months? I don't think that's fair. I don't think that follows the natural law What I would say is this I actually think and I outlined this in the book as you know That's pre cana should start in a cradle my my parents Who were married? decades There if I had to say well, who taught me pre cana was it the priest by the way, I love the priest that taught a pre cana Was it the priest that met with us three or four? Tuesdays in a row and went over some things. I think he did a great job But but primarily my pre cana was my mom and dad It was it was watching Husband and wife in love whose love brought forth children and I Probably couldn't told it told you much about matrimony when I was in my my crib But what I did see is two people to love each other that seemed very intent on caring for me and I think that so the pre cana starts very early and If our job is to teach people about marriage, I really think That that has to count from the pulpit teaching Young young men and young women. What a look for in a spouse I don't remember hearing this sermon and yet. I mean I've been going to mass a while now And I don't remember ever hearing a sermon about that. Who is what you should look for in a spouse? It seems to me that's a very fruitful sermon. I mean Especially when you know when the when the gospel is you know, the wedding feast at cana or there's something pertaining to marriage Why not have that? There's your pre cana By the way, if you're waiting till a few well 16 months is too long But typically if you're waiting, let's say six months to your pre cana You should have already known at that point. What a Suitable a good spouse looked like right, right? You found me So so I really think that in terms of saying no, no, no They're engaged now. We should wait 16 months and make sure they know their faith That should have been going on their whole lives, right? This is like this is a new thing Are we gonna teach them about marriage now? I don't think that's fair to them I think you want to teach them. How do how to be virtuous yourself in other words? If I were hearing that if I were in the pew Listen to that sermon Here's what you young lady should look for any young man. I'd want to be that young man. I Would I would feel you know compelled to like, okay? How do I live more virtually? What how do I? How do I become that I just think we should concentrate on that more so To the myriad of problems surrounding marriage annulments Marriage prep does it feel too overwhelming of a problem? For it that you to see addressed by the Episcopat in The US by the bishops by your local parish priests How do you start to fix this problem that is so just endemic and large in the culture? Well, that's the trick but but the here's what we know for sure we know for sure that sacraments don't break So that means that matrimony is not broken that we know So what does that mean? It means the system is is faulty that means somewhere along the way Something is not going the way that it should be. I think that's fair to say So there is a way to solve this this this issue in the large measure One of the things that we really need to do is get the priests more involved with With with the couples in the young married lives and that doesn't mean just meeting with them a few times before they're married I think it's great the priests meet a lot of times. They really don't or it's sort of a very informal type of thing But you know the priests have to be involved It's a great time for priests to recommend, you know that the couple go to confession It's a great time to get to know them I think they should you know, the priest should remain in their lives In the first few years to like bless their homes, you know I mentioned this in the book and I hope that people realize this is a I think there's a pretty valuable suggestion The blessing of the homes used to be it was pretty common now. It's really rare I think that should be something. I think there's that I think that You know staying with a couple and trying to help them live sacramental lives is good I think the priests the involvement is good. I mean again, look, I'm you know, I'm a solid I'm a Roman Leroy, you know, I Should say I'm a solid Catholic, you know as I mentioned we go to daily Mass. I love priests I want them more involved in in the in lives. I think that's a key part of this I think structurally and The bishops of America could take this as as a bit of a bit of a friendly challenge Please explain why it is that there is a divorce mandate I want to know why there is a civil divorce mandate prior to hearing the annulment because I'll say this How it if reconciliation is possible and I think that many times it is It strikes me that that's awfully hard after you've gotten a civil divorce for one that contends Just divorce is probably gonna run what a hundred thousand dollars. Maybe more. It's not cheap Right, especially in the in the age of you know, you're a lateral divorce and makes it trickier So there's that so there are structural things we can do Again from the pulpit key thing The There has to be some talk from the pulpit about why matrimony is good. Why it's great The fact that God loves marriage God hates divorce. We know that it's in the Bible God loves marriage. How do we know he loves marriage? Well, if you start if you go back to the old testament So when I started in this book, by the way To try to get a sense of like how God designed marriage. I thought it would be a good idea to Let's go all the way back. Let's go back to the garden, right? and God loves marriage and he's you know, adam You know feels a sense of loneliness and then and then and then eve is created So it's actually very beautiful in the sense that in a lot of ways but consider that One so one flesh becomes Becomes two and then two it becomes one. It's beautiful We have to talk about that. We have to emphasize the fact that that God loves marriage and then we go obviously adam and eve messed up pretty badly and You know creation fell But you know, it's interesting too when you read the old testament Thing that that that's that really stood out to me as I did my research is is that as bad As things were around them. I mean you want to talk about the tumultuous relationship. I mean adam and eve. I mean, that's That's pretty rough. I mean it's creation fell And but you know what's interesting is they never get divorced and they don't ever seem to have considered divorce and I say in the book I think that they always remembered how great marriage could be So we go from that story we go to the new testament The new testament The gospel of john, uh, so essentially we're opening up at our wedding scene. We have a wedding at cana We don't know the name of the couple. It's interesting um, we do know that from the beginning of The husband and wife's life together Christ was at the center. He was literally present at their wedding In the east in the eastern church at least and I were married in the eastern right and The first thing we deal with that ceremony is that we walk We put on we we put on crowns and we walk around the gospel book Literally we walk around the gospel so they got to remind us just at the very beginning The gospel is the center of our lives but We go to the the gospel of john mary says they have no wine Now mary knows something is going mary knows that If jesus begins his public life that is the beginning of his road to calvary and yet she asks him And jesus turns water into wine So we know that jesus loves marriage. We know that mary loves marriage And one of the great things that I think is so important for us to focus on particularly in age that is um It's so difficult in so many ways, but it's it's no secret that we live on a pornographic age How do you get out of it? You have an devotion to mary You you you turn to our lady. This is key. This is what we all should be doing But I think we have to remember that from the pulpit what we need to hear is god loves marriage I don't remember ever hearing and maybe I forgot that's Maybe I forgot a priest saying that I don't remember A priest ever saying god loves marriage. Why why aren't we hearing that? Why aren't we hearing that? Five or ten times a year. Why are we thinking it? Why aren't we talking about that? in the book I talk a lot about the book of tabias And uh, the book of tow that I should say and tabias and sarah and their wedding um Because that really shows us what would happen to a wedding to a marriage if You go back and look at the question What if adam had cast the serpent out? He could have done it What if adam had said no? No, no, you cannot you're not going to break our marriage up We just clearly but the serpent was trying to do the serpent was trying to break up a marriage That's that's pretty clear so so what What tabias? Is doing in that and I go into detail about the book of tabias. It's a it's a beautiful It's beautiful. Sadly, uh, the book of the book of tow. But it's not read On any sunday. I believe in the current calendar. It's read every three years And I think that's only part of it. I think part of it is is taken out. Yes, and I talk about that in the book That should be at least once a year we talk about that because because tabias essentially cast a demon out Uh that wanted to wreck his marriage And the demon never came back and they lived a happy life and it was it was great But we need we need to focus on that god loves marriage We need we need to hear that and we we we desperately need to hear the positives It's not just you know, that's one of the that's one of my my hopes for this book is that um This is not a book about annulments per se. Yes, it's in there I I go over that the longest chapter is about annulments because I think that is it's a very significant problem My my my belief though my my stance is not that No marriage should ever have resulted in a finding of nullity. Okay I I think that there were marriages out there. Yes, properly speaking. There should be a finding of nullity It shouldn't be 70 000 but my position is is that that um There are there are relationships that are reconcilable There are we need to know about the goods of marriage We need to know about the beauty of marriage and we need to hear about it from the priests We need to hear about it from the bishops and I can I can talk and you know You know talk about how great marriage is that's that's that's fine. I hope people get a lot out of that I hope I inspire people But the fact of the matter is is that if the church is going to change on this the leadership of the church is Going to change we need to hear it from the priests Precy to tell us how great marriage is they they should know this this is a sacrament I have to keep in mind this is a sacrament. So we need to hear about the beauty of the sacrament I had a reading for the book of tobit at my wedding. I am proud to say beautiful excellent excellent Again, the book is betrayed without a kiss defending marriage after years of failed leadership In the church you can find it here on tan books.com or at your local catholic bookseller john Congratulations on this powerful book very timely for our culture today I hope some of those bishops are watching this are listening and pick up some things that we are couples so desperately Need to hear today all of our families. Thank you so much for being with us Thank you. Mary. I appreciate it so much