 My name is Larry Foster, and I'm filling in for Mark's Claw for this episode of Law Across the Sea. Today, we're going out into the Pacific Islands. My guest is Manara Mordecai, who is the director of special projects at the University of Hawaii's William S. Richardson School of Law. One of her special projects is to coordinate a legal training program the law school puts on for Pacific Island judges. The trainers are lawyers and law professors and judges from Hawaii. The law school first started training programs for Pacific Island judges from the federated states of Micronesia some 30 years ago. That earlier program was funded by the federal judiciary in the federated states, then headed by Judge Ed King. The coordinator of that program was Addison Bowman, professor of law at the law school. At that time, most if not all of the state court judges were not law trained. The goal of that program was to bring those judges to the level of a second year law student. So, Manara, Aloha, welcome to ThinkDec. Aloha, Larry. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk about this program with you today. So, what Pacific Island jurisdictions are included in this program? So the jurisdictions include American Samoa, federated states of Micronesia, which includes the states of Koshra, Yap, Juke, and Ponope, and Republican Marshall Islands, and Palau. Those are the four jurisdictions. That's a pretty broad swath of jurisdictions. What kind of legal systems do those nations have? So, most of—actually, all of the jurisdictions are based on U.S. constitution. So they have some form of Western court system, but they also have traditional court systems as well. So, we have a lot of judges who are actually set on traditional courts, and they hear cases related to customs traditions and land cases as well. So you have—the judges are lay judges, as you mentioned, they're non-law trained. And they have—FSN, for example, has part of their constitution that gives authority to traditional common law. So they are elders in their communities. Some of them have been in the legislature, elected officials, and now they've become appointed as judges. As I recall, the Chief Justice in the Federated States of Micronesia is a U.S. law graduate. Is that correct? Yes, it is. Dennis Yamase is a 1982 graduate of Richardson Law School. Last time—our last session was actually in Ponope, and he hosted us. His courtroom was in Ponope, so he hosted us on the islands. It was very welcoming. We had a reception with Sakao, which is their word for Ava. So there's a lot of— Did you try the Sakao, the Ava? I did. I did. It was quite something. We also got to see how it's made. So there's a lot of connections between the islands that we got to see and experience. So where does the funding for this particular program come from? So it's actually really interesting. The funding is coming from the federal government, but there are different sources of the funding. The U.S. federal government? The U.S. federal government. Yes, that's correct. Specifically, the Office of Insular Affairs under the Department of Interior, but different jurisdictions receive funding from different places. So for example, Republic of Marshall Islands and FSM are part of the compact of free associations. So that's where the funding is coming from that. And for Palau and American Samoa, there are different grants that sponsor those as well. The program itself is administered. The funding and the program is administered by the Ninth Circuit Pacific Islands Committee. And actually, Judge Clifton sits on that committee as well. He's a Ninth Circuit judge here in Hawaii. So we, the law school, we submitted a proposal to become the body that provides the actual training. And I collaborate closely with the Ninth Circuit Education Specialist, Russ Matheson. So we work closely together and putting together this program. Excellent. What is the purpose of the program? I think I mentioned earlier the original program some 30 years ago was to sort of raise the level of these late judges to that roughly of a second year lost in, is it? What's the purpose of the current program? So as I mentioned, they have no legal training. So our goal is to provide substantive and procedural legal skills, such as courtroom management, decision making, and the role of customary law. We also teach communication in being able to advocate for—not advocate, but become neutral arbiters in their courtrooms and being able to communicate and explain their decision making, why the decision had come out a certain way. So some of the sessions that we focus on are very practical for those purposes. So this particular institute, this iteration of the institute, we're teaching courses in decision making, judicial ethics, evidence, criminal law, and property rights. How long is a program typically run, a week or a few days? Yeah, so the way we structure the program and our original proposal was to have two years of sessions that are spread out over a two-year period. There'd be five sessions, and each session would last four or five days, about six hours each day. So it's pretty intense, and because they have to—they cannot take extensive amount of time from their work, their concentrate, their training within a one-week period. So Monday through Friday, they're in a classroom for six hours, and it's one week, and we have about two sessions per year that we try to schedule. And they take place in different locations around the Pacific? Yes, that's correct. It varies. One of the reasons why we were selected actually for this—to administer this program is because of our proximity, geographic proximity to the island, so it makes it convenient for judges to come and be in Honolulu, and we also take some of the sessions to the islands as well. So it changes between Micronesian region. So in the past, we've had sessions in Palau, in the Marshall Islands. We also held a session in Hilo, in Pontepe, and this— So why was Hilo chosen? It's an interesting location. It was time for us to host it here in Hawaii, and we decided to try a different island. And it was actually worked out really well. The session was on criminal law, and we—as part of the training, as I mentioned, they do a lot of practical hands-on training as well that are relevant for their courtroom specifically. So we were able to use a courthouse in Hilo, and Judge Marshall, who is a federal judge based out of Los Angeles, she was visiting, and she was the chair of the Committee of the Pacific Islands Committee for the Ninth Circuit. So she was in Hilo with us, and she was actually able to preside over this mock trial that we conducted. Did she bring a robe? Yes, we had the robe. This is a picture from the mock trial. You see the judges sitting here. It was quite exciting actually to see the proceedings, and she definitely was in full judicial mode. And being in Hilo and knowing some of the judges who actually have the courtrooms there, and they were very cooperative and very helpful for us to be able to reserve a courtroom and use it for a mock trial. How were the participants for the program selected? So they are lay judges, but we are looking at experience and geographic background. So for example, if people who have a little prior training will get preference. Do they apply for this? Yes. Okay. So what happens is we send out an invitation and save the date for a particular session with an explanation what the session will teach. And then participants can submit a registration form. The other decision part of actually is based on, not on us, but on their jurisdiction. So each jurisdiction has a chief justice that decides which judges would benefit the most from this particular training. Okay. So it may not be the same participants for each session. Exactly. But for the most part, within that two-year period where we have the sessions, I've seen the same judges that have been able to attend. So they're building on their previous learned skills, which has been really helpful. So I've definitely seen the trajectory with particular judges. So they come from a wide variety of jurisdictions and cultures and languages. So I assume the medium of instruction for the program is English. Yes. But I assume, do you know offhand, particularly if they're doing customary law cases, what would be the language, for example, in YAP that they would use? Do you know YAPIs? I don't know the name of the language, but they do conduct most of, in traditional courts, they would conduct it in the native language. But almost everyone is fluent in English. We've had some barriers with language with some judges, but they haven't been, it's something that we adapt to as faculty and administrators as well. So there are some things that we may take for granted, some words that we take for granted or concepts that we take for granted. And because our population in Hawaii is so unique and there's such a large population of Micronesians who are living in Hawaii, there's familiarity with different cultural norms and traditions. So our faculty are able to adapt and explain certain concepts. And then what's been really beneficial actually in what I've seen grow over the period of time that I've been doing this program is how much they're learning from each other. So for example, in the classroom, if there's a concept that someone doesn't understand, the judge sitting next to them is able to explain to them in the native language. And I've been out to the Pacific a couple of times, but you mentioned Hawaii was selected as a good venue for the organization part because of its close geographic proximity. These nations are thousands of miles apart themselves. And I think even FSM, YAP, is a thousand miles from Pompeii or something like that. Transportation must be one of your largest costs for the program. It is. It can be a barrier, but prior to having it hosted by Richardson Law School, the judges would be sent to Reno, Nevada, which has been more expensive in further travel. It actually works out really well for our partnership with the Ninth Circuit, where when we host the sessions in the Pacific Islands, the costs associated with travel is actually minimal because it would be faculty who is flying into the islands. And then we're bringing in, for example, flying from YAP to Ponipay is cheaper than flying from YAP to Hawaii or to Reno. But it is expensive and it is a challenge, but it's something that we're dealing with and the best we can. There's one airline that flies there, United Airlines. So we... Yeah, the old company on the... Yeah, exactly. So it's an island hopper plane, actually. So when we flew to Ponipay, you have to make three or four stops, which makes for a fun adventure. But we're all on the plane together, actually. We pick up people on different islands and then fly with them. So it works out and for right now, this is the best case scenario, I believe, because the islands, if in the future, for example, we decide to do some of the sessions online, the bandwidth doesn't allow for it to be as effective. And also, I believe in person, small group discussions are really valuable, which is worth that time and effort that goes into it. Yeah, it was face-to-face small group. Exactly. Okay, I think we're rapidly approaching the halftime for the program. Oh, that was fast. Very fast. So let's... When we come back, we'll continue talking about the program and get some of your insights as to how well the program is working. So see you after the break. Sounds good. Okay. Thank you. Hi, I'm Dave Stevens, the host of Cyber Underground every Friday here at 1 p.m. on ThinkTechHawaii.com. And then every episode is uploaded to the Cyber Underground. That library of shows that you can see of mine on YouTube.com. And I hope you'll join us here every Friday. We have some topical discussions about why security matters and what could scare the absolute bejesus out of you. If you just try to watch my show all the way through. Hope to see you next time on Cyber Underground. Stay safe. Hey, Stan Energyman here on ThinkTechHawaii. And they won't let me do political commentary, so I'm stuck doing energy stuff. But I really like energy stuff, so I'm going to keep on doing it. So join me every Friday on Stan Energyman at lunchtime, at noon, on my lunch hour. We're going to talk about everything energy, especially if it begins with the word hydrogen. We're going to definitely be talking about it. We'll talk about how we can make Hawaii cleaner, how we can make the world a better place. Just basically save the planet. Even Miss America can't even talk about stuff like that anymore. We got it nailed down here. So we'll see you on Friday at noon with Stan Energyman. Aloha. Aloha. We're back from break. And my guest today is Manora Mordechai, who runs a very exciting program put on by the William S. Richardson School of Law, right here in Manoa Valley, at the William S. Richardson School of Law Training Program for Pacific Island judges. So the trainers, can you talk a little bit about the trainers, who they are, and how they are selected? Definitely. So I work with the Dean of the Law School, Avi Soyfer, and you know him well as your colleague. So we kind of go through the expertise, what specifically would be needed for a particular session and think about experts in Hawaii, who are not only experts in that particular field, but also have familiarity with the Pacific Island jurisdictions. So for example, we were lucky to have Julian Agon, who is a graduate of UH Law School. And he's a prominent attorney in Guam. He recently argued a case in front of NYCIRCUT actually. So our law school has a number of students in from the island. Yes, we do. So there's a close connection between the law school and the Pacific Island. So Julian actually taught a session on territorial sovereignty and insular cases, which was very relevant and to particular, like for example, for American Samoa to learn about the territorial jurisdictions and limitations. We also had Judge Clifton, who sits on the NYCIRCUT Pacific Island's committee, and he's a NYCIRCUT judge as well. I think he also served as an associate chief justice over some cases in American Samoa. So he has experience with that as well. Judge Clifton is also an experienced teacher. Yes. He taught at the law school for many years. Yes. As an adjunct professor. Yes. So that's one of the advantages of actually holding in Hawaii to have the legal experts who also have experience working in the Pacific Island jurisdiction. Sherri Broder is another one. She's a faculty at the law school and also a well-known attorney here in Hawaii as well. As you probably know, she's her and her late husband, Professor John Wendike, that a lot of cases related to Pacific Island jurisdiction. So I think they actually even drafted some of the rule of law and looked at some of the cases in the Marshall Islands. My recollection of one of your trainers, trainers is probably too low of a word to describe these excellent people, but Judge Milks, Marina Milks. Yes, Judge Milks. She's been outstanding. She taught the last session in Ponipay on judicial ethics and professional responsibility. The participants loved her. The judges loved her so much, they asked her to come back. So she's teaching our next session here in Honolulu, which will take place in January on decision-making. So again, her perspective on how the rules in the courtroom and issuing opinions, drafting opinions, all of that, she takes it from a perspective not just taken in a vacuum, but specifically how it's related to having cases and hearing cases in the Pacific Island jurisdiction. So for example, with judicial ethics, in some of these jurisdictions, it's impossible to recuse yourself from every case because you will know somehow someone related to either friends or family related to people who are in front of you in the courtroom. So she discussed how to approach judicial ethics from that perspective, where you know most of the people that are coming in front of you and how do you handle it professionally. One more question about trainers. Yes. I understand another popular trainer is Ken Lawson from the UH Law School. He is, and he's popular with the news here as well. You see him as a criminal law expert here. So he taught criminal law, and again, he was so popular, they asked him to come back for criminal procedure. He taught twice. And Ken is a good example of how not only are we building an existing relationship between Pacific Islands and Hawaii, but also we're creating future relationships. So Ken, he's never taught in the Pacific Islands before, but he's an expert in criminal law. And after he's taught that particular session, he's actually been invited back for several times. And he's a very gifted teacher as well. He is. He's been back to speak as a conference in the Pacific Islands and Guam and other places. So he is now a regular in the Pacific Island. So you've been doing yourself, organizing this program for about a year and a half now, roughly, would have been the biggest obstacles to sort of organizing this program with a lot of moving parts. Judges have been difficult at times, mainly places to stay, making sure that everyone will have appropriate accommodations. But for the most part, it's been going pretty smoothly. We do also find that some judges have more experience than others, so being able to accommodate different levels of expertise. And with each session, we learn how to do it better the next time. And we've been getting amazing evaluations, and there's definitely a feedback that we get back from the judges that tells us how to improve it for next times. And it pays off because every time we submit a new registration form for a new session, we have the classes at capacity. So our upcoming session in January is at capacity already. Excellent. Hey, has there been any—well, have you been out to the Pacific, well, other than Hawaii? Have you been out beyond Hawaii in the Pacific before this program? Not before this program. So it really opened up opportunities for me to be able to learn about the cultures and being able to actually visit their courtrooms in the specific jurisdictions. Was there anything that surprised you over the last 18 months in running this program? You mentioned that they're spread out thousands of miles. The surprising part is how—the commonalities that I've seen across different islands. And as you know, Hawaii—some of the cultural traditions here have been revived through some of the knowledge that was still existing in YAP and other— Right, the Great Navigator. Exactly. Yeah. So to see—so, for example, I weave Lao Hala, and to see some of the Lao Hala weavers in Ponapé and Marshall Islands, and to see—to witness that cultural connection has been very special. And then to see how the judges interact with each other and learn from each other, a lot of the issues they deal with, even though they're spread out thousands of miles, the cases are very similar, whether it's land cases or customary and traditional rights cases. So they teach each other just as much as they learn from our faculty. So how do you gauge the success of a program like this? Are they taking examination at the end, or how does that work? The success, for me, lies in evaluations to see the feedback, because a lot of that learning is voluntary. It's not forced. There's no grades assigned. So the judges are eager and willing to learn. And then to see them discuss some of the issues that they learn during lunch, during dinner, that shows to me that there's a level of engagement that whatever we attempted to do is staying there, it's sticking there. So that's how I define success. There's no examination, and then return, you know, people who return for more, to me, that says a lot as well. One of my recollections of the program is run by Ed King and Addison Bowman. And this is a role that Addie Bowman played. Some of the Pacific Island nations like Beetle Nut, and he would take the judges down to Chinatown and buy Beetle Nut, so that they would not be too homesick there. I know you brought some photographs with you. Maybe we can go through some of the photographs and sort of explain what's going on in the photo. Yes, so this is actually one of the sessions here. In Honolulu, we had a private tour arranged for them in the Hamilton Library, and they got to see some of the original documents. For example, the first Bible that was written in Samoan in our library has it. So it was really interesting to see that for me, and definitely for the judges who participated. And then next picture, this is one of the sessions that we have. I do enjoy having the diversity of perspective, not just simply from different jurisdictions, but also from women judges as well. Not a majority, but a number of women judges who come back to attend these sessions. So let's talk about diversity in Pacific Island judges. Any sense of the percentage of women judges versus male judges? This predominantly male profession, as it stands, but from what I've heard from judges talking about it, and they brought it up several times and it's changing. There are more women who are on the court in the FSM and other places as well. As I recall, out in the Pacific 30 years ago, I don't recall a female judge. So progress is being made out there. Let's go back to the photos. So this is actually Dean Soyfer. That's at the law school during one of our certificate ceremonies. So they receive a certificate of completion after attending each session. And a female judge. Yes, exactly. Excellent. So that's Professor Linda Krieger. This was in the Marshall Islands. Another certificate ceremony that we held. And actually another connection, Professor Calvin Pang at the law school, knew Judge Nick Johnny that you see on the picture here from his days as a clerk in FSM. So Judge Calvin, I mean, Professor Calvin Pang was a clerk in FSM. He knew Judge Johnny from back then. Excellent. I know. Excellent, yeah. So this was at the law library here at UH Manoa. We actually host a reception for them every year that they come to Hawaii. And this year we will host one of the law libraries as well. And I'm really excited about what we're going to do this year. The law library will bring out some of the papers by John Van Dyke and other original documents. And we wanted to record and have an oral history of how the Constitution of some of the jurisdictions has evolved and the original construction of Constitution and how it remains relevant now. So we ran out of photos. Oh, okay. So let me ask you another question. When you call a presenter to please come and be a presenter or a trainer. Yes. Are people happy to do it, bothered to do it? They love it, especially the ones who have taught already. So, for example, Ken Lawson, he's taught criminal law and was happy to come back to teach criminal procedure. Judge Milks, the same way. I think there's just something special about the bond that you create over that five-day period because they're not just students. They're practitioners. They're elders in their communities. I feel like the faculty, our faculty, learn from them as well. And they learn to become better teachers as well. So our presenters, we had, who was it? Dean Soiffer actually did a session on constitutional law and he was able to learn from them and how the Constitution here in the United States has been adapted into the various jurisdictions. So we're running out of time very quickly. I still have another page of questions. So we'll have to do this again sometime. Definitely. I'd love to. Thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you. Good luck on the future of the program. Thank you. Aloha. Aloha.