 A very good evening to you and thank you for joining us on Y254. My name is Patricia Murioki and tonight we're talking about overcoming the challenges of mentorship. We know that when we talk about mentorship, it's something that every person probably desires to have such guidance in their life so that they're able to know when to make certain decisions and why they are making those decisions. And mentorship is a guidance provided by a mentor, especially an experienced person in a company or educational institution or any other aspect of life. Mentorship are key drivers of success. These personal connections lead to opportunities and promotions that are crucial for career development. Today we choose to focus on the challenges faced through this process and try to find solutions to address the loopholes that are there. To help us talk about this topic tonight, we have Sara Muni, who is a life coach and Gideon Makumi is a vice president youth mentorship foundation, talked to us across our social media platforms. That is at Y254 channel you can also reach me at Patricia Murioki. How are you people? You fine? Yes, we are. We're doing well. You're well? Thank you. It's warm in here. It is good since the weather outside is really not the best. When we talk about mentorship, most of the times people talk about the impact of mentorship. Most of the times we talk about how has that journey been for you? What are some of the things that you've been able to get from that relationship that you've had? But there are these other things that people really don't talk about. And for me to feel that let us address this, it is because I also have experiences that I feel if I was to get certain guidance, I would have done better. And there's also something, some information that lacks in between, which now creates a disconnect between people trying to really identify mentors. And to start our discussion tonight, I'd like to start with you, Sara. When you talk about identifying mentors, how are we supposed to do that? And as I said, should I go and ask, let's say I've seen Gideon, he's in the line of work that I'm doing, and I like his work a bit, I like his values, I like literally how he carries himself around that. Should I go and tell him, Gideon, please mentor me? Should I do that? As I identify mentors in life. Thank you. That's a very important question. It's out of the norm. Yes, but when you identify somebody who you'd like to mentor or somebody who really envisions, I mean, embodies what you want to achieve in your line of career or business, the one thing I'd want to say is if you can or if you in a position get involved in their programs, they must be somewhere possibly running programs or somewhere, because this is what happens. Anybody who is successful, they want to help. They want to reach out, they want to help. So if there's any mechanism or a platform that they mentor people, find out how you can be involved and engaged. The thing is that if you have identified that person, many other people have. So, but many people do that, but they don't really want, they don't want to take part in possibly what they are doing, volunteer in programs or organizations that they run, that's one way. The other thing is possibly if you meet them in a networking event, it's okay, you can let them know what you're doing, what you're passionate about and let them also know that you'd want them to mentor you and which is the best way that you can work towards them mentoring you. This is what I'd like to say at this point. The best mentorship is mentorship that is paid for. Mentorship should not be for free. People don't appreciate, they don't appreciate. This is what happens. I'll find a mentor or somebody who I'd want to mentor and then possibly because they are out there, you know, but we only go when we want to be fixed, when things have happened, things have gone south and then you want to be fixed. It's consultancy, pay for it. If mentorship is a process, subscribe, pay for it, then you'll appreciate it. First of all, because when Sarah said that mentorship, the best mentorship is one that you pay for, you give good. Why? Do you have a different opinion about that? I think people appreciate it. What do you feel when she said that? Well, I agree with her. People don't value free things. Mentorship in itself, it's an investment that one has to make. Nevertheless, on the other hand, I also think it depends with who you're approaching and why and even the background. I understand there are those levels, mentorship, and especially for someone like us, if I needed a mentor, it makes sense if I went and invested in that. But on the other hand, we have that young man, say Korogosho, someone in high school. We may not ask them to pay for the mentorship. So I think it all depends with who is your audience, who is that person seeking mentorship. Are they in that position? Because for example, in my case, I started being mentored from high school. That time I wouldn't have afforded mentorship. But today, where I am, gladly, I'll be able to go and pay my... If I found someone and there's something they have, which I need, most of them out here, you're paying for them. To even be in those sessions, you're paying for them. So I think it depends with the level at which a person is seeking that mentorship. OK. So yes and no. OK. Because I also kind of like have some been... I think differently when it comes to saying that people should pay for like the best is on that has been paid for. And when I was doing research for this topic, I came across a mentor who said that like they were giving a talk and she said that the best mentorship for them is where you also have to realize as a mentor, you also have to bring in... At some point there has to be sponsorship. In terms of you're mentoring this person and when you get to hear of an opportunity, you're finding ways like how can this person probably improving on a certain skill? What are your thoughts on that and how can mentors? Because some of the mentors we have, they only text them and you're like, OK, I achieved this, I'm struggling with this and they will really not throw out opportunities. There are people who are like that. What advice do you have for such mentors? Yes. I think as a mentor, your role is to really help somebody be able to up-level where they are, to expose them to opportunities. And the thing is, even for you, it's a win for you when you see this person growing. It's a win for you because you can be able to, when you look back and say, oh, I've been able to help one or two people this far, you feel achieved and happy and fulfilled as a person. So I think that's really the role. So any opportunities... And this is what happens to anybody who is growing or when you reach somewhere in your career, you find very many opportunities around you. They don't all belong to you. They belong to people who are in your space. They belong to people, possibly who you're mentoring your mentees. So that's their approach. And so what really depends on, what it depends on is also how passionate is this mentee? Yes, because there's also, I've spoken of the aspect of paying for mentorship, structured mentorship, which actually you pay, but also as we're beginning and as he was saying, it's good, your passion is what really takes you there. How passionate are you? And also, how available are you? How mentable are you? Because you can only also mentor somebody to the level they're willing to submit to you. So how mentable are you as well? So, I mean, that's the thing when it comes to mentorship. It's looking for opportunities here and there where you can be able to help people, assist people, but also you need to show passion. You need to show interest. You need to push. You need to be present. For mentorship, you have to be present. Yeah, so if somebody is always looking for you, if you're my mentor, for example, and I'm the only one, and I'm the one who, if you're my mentor and you're the one looking for me all the time, all the time there's this opportunity, all the time there's this opportunity, all the time I'll feel like I'm also pushing, you'll feel like you're also pushing me too much and you know, you start. So because I'm the one who is in need, I'm the one to keep coming to, coming to, because there are many people who are also looking for you. So it's up to me to really show the interest and then also whichever opportunities you have as the mentor, you can throw them around. Okay. Yes. Let us to talk about the value of mentorship. Gideon, there is someone out there watching us tonight and they have done their best. They have shown passion and they have literally done everything that probably Sarah has talked about in terms of how you get to identify a mentor and they're not, they're not lucky. They're still out there doing things all by themselves and they've sat down and told themselves, I'm gonna do this by myself, I will learn from myself because I have done my best in looking for this person but I cannot find them. What is the value of mentorship? Now when it's coming, when you have that one-on-one person who's gonna reach out, who's gonna call, when they see you doing things the wrong and they're like, Patricia, I think you need to up your game. You need to go back to the drawing board. What's the, what value does mentorship bring in? Thank you, Patricia. What I think, as far as the value of mentorship is concerned, first, it's very important for anyone seeking mentorship to understand that mentorship is not the only thing that will get you to where your goals are. What mentorship does, it accelerates that journey from where you are to where you want to go because what happens is that your mentor can only do so much. I think 80% is you. The 80% is how much you even listen to this person who is holding your hand. Actually, mentorship is a journey where someone is holding your hand to help you get there but this person may not always be there. Sometimes it is even through an email. You told ABCD, other times, and the best is when someone shares their experiences. So I think for one to get that value, you have to do more than just the face value of it where you are looking at myself and I'm looking at Patricia as the person who will get me to become who I want to become. Let's take mentorship as a place where I'm taking someone as a role model but I'm not taking, it is not their responsibility to make me succeed. It is my responsibility to pick lessons from them which will help me succeed. So it ends at the point of you can do this. Actually, how I look at it is a mentor gives you suggestions and like a coach, a coach will give you instructions. ABCD, a mentor will give you suggestions that if you did this, you're likely to get there. If you avoided this, you're likely to achieve this. So you have to, you can choose whether you pick the lesson or not. So at the point you're getting frustrated, you're saying now I want to do it on my own, probably there's something you're not doing right. But if you follow the suggestions you're getting from your mentor, you stand a chance of getting where you're going faster. Okay. Sarah, before we get to talk about, you get to tell us the difference between a coach and a mentor. This is some, I put this out on my social media and this is what one person said. The problem for me is a lack of mentors. Mentors who really work the journey with you. They feel that's the problem. Do you feel we lack mentors that we're living in an era whereby there are people willing to be mentored but we don't have mentors who are really willing to work that journey with you? I think mentorship these days in the 21st century is a big world. And like I was saying, anyone who is successful out there, they want to help. And if you find somebody who's really successful, they are very mean, they don't want to help, they are not successful. So I think it's a matter of you positioning yourself and exposing yourself to maybe networking opportunities because I can assure you whether it's in the STEM, in science and engineering or in whichever area that you are in, there's somebody who has gone ahead of you and made it, yes. So mentors are there. It's about positioning. It's about you recognizing what do I really want first of all, because not everybody can mentor you. In which area do you need mentorship first of all? Who are people playing in that space? Make it your business to know your business and to know your industry. Who are the people making it in that industry? Who are the dons in that industry? Make it your business to know that. And also, where do they go? Which clubs do they go to? Are they part of like lottery clubs? Are they part of, make it your business to know where they go. And these days it's very simple. You just need to go to somebody's Facebook page to know maybe what event they will be in. Or I mean you can always find that Twitter, go to LinkedIn. These days you can even speak to Bill Gates on LinkedIn. They are there. They are there personally. Not even just they are technical teams. They are usually there. You can follow somebody. You can know what they are working on and be part of what they are doing. So that's mentors are there. That's I think the first thing I want to assure anybody who thinks there are no mentors around them. Mentors are there. Position yourself. Identify what exactly you need and also reach out. Be mentorable. Be mentorable. And like you are saying, in one of the challenges you find in mentors, I don't know of somebody who's always there. You know, it's not really the business of your mentor to really follow you every time they are there. They are making sure that oh, you know, as if it's a responsibility really for you to really succeed. Well, they are responsible. We are part of the responsible because when they accept they want to assist you but it's you to really push and be present and be, you know, really show that passion. You know, then you be able to get there. Because like you were saying, they can only do so much. You know, the rest is really up to you. Yeah, the rest is really up to you. So what now is the difference between a coach and a mentor so that people don't get these two mixed up? Yes, I'm a coach, you know. But I'm also a mentor, you know. I think let me give this analogy. A coach is somebody you want to travel. You're okay, let's say COVID has, you know. You want to travel. You want to go to, let's say, to Uganda, possibly some exposure. You have never been out of the country as a young person. A coach will tell you exactly what you need to do together. They will not go with you. They will tell you, okay, if you want to go there two ways. You can fly or you can go by road or you can walk. So if you walk, it will take you this number of hours. You will follow this route, you will get there. That's one, that's higher. Then they'll also tell you. You can also use, you can go to Simba Quartz. You can go to Guardian, those buses. You will pay this much. And by 10 hours, you'll be in Kampala. They'll also tell you, if you go, and if you do that, you'll actually get there. They'll also tell you, or they'll tell you, okay, you can go to Kenya Airways, I mean, at the airport. Just board a plane, you pay this much and in about an hour, you'll be in Kampala. If you do that, you will get there. A mentor is somebody who will actually tell you, okay, you want to go to Uganda, you want to go to Kampala, they will actually go with you. They'll tell you, okay, we have this route, we can go there, we have this another one. They will actually go with you. They are tour guides. Coaches are travel agents. Let me say that. Actually they let you know, you got it out for yourself. But you will get there. But mentors, they are tour guides. They'll tell you, okay, you can go by bus, you can go by bus. It's like this. Watch it to cool it, watch it to cool it. Yes, they'll go with you. I think that's the best analogy I can use. Okay, and I really like it. And I hope that people really get to differentiate the two. Yes, I know like a mentor, like I know most people watch football. I mean, it's all soccer stories. When we have the coaches, yeah, like Mourinho, I mean, Jose Mourinho, do they play? No, they don't. They don't play, but they're able to stand somewhere and look at, okay, who's one of these players? I'm not a football fan, I'm sorry. So I cannot help. Who's one of these players? Can you believe us? So they're able to look at a player. I think you can best play number nine. You can best play striker. They can be able to stand at a vantage point and tell you, okay, these are your strengths. Maximize on them. These are your weaknesses. You need to improve here. And right now, I need you to come back and just get some breath. Yeah, and then you go back. So they're just instructing you. They're able to stand somewhere. But then there's another person who can actually tell you, okay, let me go to the field with you and show you this is how you do the, is this a goal kick or the corner kick? What? Yeah, that's it. I hope those two analogies have helped you get the difference between a coach and a better. You need more. Okay, okay. So I think that we need to address something where people feel that is not people looking for mentors. There is this organization. You want to be mentored by the CEO who comes in the office probably twice a week. And you have your head of department there who can be willing to mentor you. But because your aiming, your aim is up there. There's no problem with aiming. But I think how can we now come and create a balance in being very realistic, even the people that we want are probably to mentor us. Because I feel probably we might not find mentors because of even our approach that we have. What do you think, Gidya? I think first it has to start with the objective. Why do you need a mentor? What are you looking for in that mentor? Because you can have different types of people mentoring you. You can have someone mentoring you in career. You can have another one mentoring you in business. You can have another one mentoring you in life issues. So I think between your CEO and your HOD, what is my need? If my need is probably to get to know how I can get, raise my business through to where my CEO is, then I think my CEO becomes a better choice. But if my business is to know how do I make my leadership skills better? How do I manage even the, maybe the other HOD, how do I manage maybe another level of employment on my team? Then I think a HOD becomes better. Because that is what they are doing directly. So the need should guide their approach. What you're looking for should be the one informing you that Sarah is the one that I need. But if probably it's not that coaching I need, I need someone who will help me know how is the media world. Then Patricia becomes the best person. And I like what Sarah has said. What the analogy you gave about the difference between a mentor and a coach. I think we need to realize that whereas I need this person to work with me as a mentor, I also need to know that they have other things that they are doing. And if I know my CEO even at office, I only see her once in a week, for example, then that means she's so busy, I may not get all the time that I think I need to grow. But my HOD, they are there with me every day. So which is a prudent choice? Getting the person that I think will be available. Because going back to the question you had asked, sometimes we blame our mentors that they're not there. But in essence, they cannot be there always. So I think you have to be wise enough. And Sarah said it right, know where they are. Just know their schedule in this place. If my mentor is the kind that is not even in the country all along, then I'll blame them. Yet they are doing what they're supposed to do. But I can get another person who is another option who will also guide me in the same. So mentors are there in plenty, but we have to know what we want for us to choose the approach that we're going to use to get that person to mentor us here. Okay, and today, because you said we're talking about challenges, these are the things that people don't talk about. I was talking to a friend today who felt like was when I told her like what I'm going to be talking about tonight, and she told me, I feel that women struggle in identifying mentors more than men. What do you think, Sarah? Wow, that has not been the case for me. I think because you're driven by passion and people can see it, let me tell you, it attracts, passion attracts. Passion is attractive first of all. So how passionate are you about your goals, about what you want to achieve here? So maybe that could be a study that has been done, but in my experience, because I've also mentored women. You know, I've also mentored women. Also that women, not many women are willing to extend the mentorship and the guidance to other women. Okay, wow, wow, wow, yeah. So I'm also a beneficiary of mentorship from women, yes. And in my experience, I haven't seen a case where I approach somebody and, you know, they outrightly refused or anything. I haven't seen that. Maybe widely, well, it's there. There are ladies who don't like mentoring other ladies, but like I said, if you're really successful in an area and you don't want to mentor, you're not really successful, yeah. So for me, in my experience, I think I have seen women who have been very, very willing to assist, who have programs. You know, also, there are people who are up there, they've done some things very well, but also they don't have structures, really like a structure where they can get people together. You know, so getting this person also becomes hard, you know? Getting this person becomes a bit hard, you know? And unless you really, really follow, unless you really, really look for them, they are not, you find like, they are not there. Yeah, you find like they are not there. But I don't want to sit here and say that I've found women to not to be, you know, they don't like me. I can't really say that, I will not be fair for me because I've benefited. And I've seen many other who have benefited from other ladies. Possibly Gideon has a different view, yeah. I think, I'm of different opinion. I think it's all about, it's about the personality of the person. And I've also seen women even wanting to do more than men. Ironically, starting with my boss. I mean, our boss will be the best mentor you ever find. And I believe in that value of, a mentor is happier when they see you succeed even more than they have. Than when they see you fail or when they're the only one shining. And if I don't want anyone to go beyond where I am, I think I'm even limiting myself in the sense that I'll never get to the next level if I can't allow another person to come to where I am. I always remain where I am. So really, I need to allow myself to be useful because someone else was also useful for me to get where I am. So it's only fair to return that and do it to someone else. So women, I think they do it to more than men. It will not be just if we don't talk about this, over sharing. You have a mentor who is guiding you in your career as a journalist. Are you supposed to be going to tell this person, oh, I have this problem. Oh, my village has done. I need this, this. How much should you share with your mentor? Where do we now draw the line? Because I feel some people overstep and their mentor is like, wow, I think this is not becoming too much for me and they didn't start them. So which is very okay and which is very allowed. So before you get to talk about when kind of mentee, let go of a mentor, Sarah. Yes, actually, you know, people go all the way. You know, sometimes the kind of view we have about mentorship is that, you know, mentor should do everything for me to succeed. They should give me money. I can come to his office without money and they are supposed to fix me. Please don't borrow your mentor's money. It's manalive. It's not good at all. Because, you know, and then, you know, it's not bad to share like I had this challenge and all that, but don't look needy. Don't go to them looking needy. Like you need help. I also have to ask if you're looking for sympathy. Don't, no, no, no. There's a way you can, you know, you need to be decent. You know, be decent and really just address whatever it is that, if it's assistance in business, just say this is really my need. There's no problem with you saying you have a wedding. Yeah, yeah. There's no problem. But, you know, don't look needy. How much will you contribute for me? Let them make the decision. Let me tell you, mentor, they want the best for you. They want the best way they would do anything possible. You know, to see you succeed because, you know, I mean, if somebody has really, really wants to assist you, they really want you to succeed. So, but don't look needy, first of all. Yeah, don't. Do not. Yes. Unlimited. Unlimited. Yes. In addition to that, I think it's very important for us to understand that the person I'm going to get as a mentor is not a perfect person. It's not an angel who came from heaven to come and now show me the way. This person has their own needs. They have their own issues. Probably they have even bigger, stressing issues than you do. They are also trying to continue winning whatever section they are. So, sometimes when you go to them, like begging, it's very, very unprofessional. I think what you're supposed to do from the beginning define the objective of our relationship. As we start, this is what I need and let's define how we are going to do, to work around it. Because when you do, people get pushed. Even if I had so much money, sometimes I feel so pushed back when all you do is to come and tell me the problems that you have. If I'm willing to come and assist, or if I ask you, for example, were you able to pay your rent this month and I'm willing to chip in, that's a different story. But in August, I don't have rent. In October, I don't have rent. You push me away. Not because I am not willing to help, but because I feel the objective of our relationship is not being met. Okay. As we wind up, because time is now not on our side, at what point has a mentee? Because it doesn't matter because this person is one who's up here at the other one. They're the only ones who see things the right way and all that. You can also see it some and be like, hey, by the way, it's been three months, there is no impact. This mentorship relationship is not really, it is not impacting me in any way. What point do you say, thank you? And how do we say it in respectful ways? Because we may need them 10 years down the line. Sarah, as we close up, please. And you can also actually outgrow your mentor. Yeah, it's true. But when you find such a situation, you don't go to your mentor and say, okay, thank you for your mentorship now, I'm God. Mentorship is a lifetime process. And even the person who helped you when you were in primary school, maybe they invited you, they guided you in some way and you know for sure your life is where it is because somebody back then helped you. You don't look down on them and say, okay, now they have no value, no. So just maintain that rapport and relationship, but maybe possibly at a distance, you know. Try and check up on them sometimes, you know. But don't just let it, it should not be official like now. I've gotten enough of your mentorship, see you in the next level, see you in the next life. No, no, no, you don't do that. Just maintain a good, I mean, it's wisdom. You know, it's wisdom. And if you find you're actually doing better than your mentor, but you know, don't try to show them or try to share in, to show them that you're sharing whatever, it's apply some wisdom. Just keep contact, keep a rapport with them, but also look for people who can really push you now to where you're going. Yeah, because actually you cannot grow your mentor. Okay. Gideon, I want to give you that second. What is the one thing? I just, not long story, not telling stories. What is the one thing that has helped you really maintain the best of relationship with your mentor? Because I happen to know your mentor and they don't like you have the best relationship. As you wind up. Thank you, Patricia. Special thanks to you. He's my mentor. He has helped me become, he has raised the boy in me to become a man. That says it all. I am a man from Korogo Show. It's now a man doing something better than I would have done if I wasn't having a mentor. So my mentor has really helped me become a better man. Okay. Thank you very much for finding the time to be with us tonight and share your sentiments on this topic. I hope that for people who are watching us, I hope that you've learned all I can tell you is that mentorship is really important. If you find yourself in a place where you have a mentor, do everything that you find these two people talk about. And also if you're at a position to, if you're in a position to extend the mentorship, the wisdom and the knowledge that you have, do not keep all that to yourself. Let us share because at the end of the day we all need each other. Thank you very much. My name is Patricia Muriuki. Do have yourselves a very good night.