 First time on the show, Kip Winger. Yeah, wow, seven. Welcome. How are you guys doing? Thanks for having me. Great, great new album. Seven going to be released May the 5th on Frontiers Music SRL. Glad to have you, my friend. Thank you, man. Cool, well, I'm going to say it. And that's it. Thank you. Goodbye. That's the interview. OK, cool. I mean, I'm excited about this new record. This is the first record in nine years. I guess the obvious question is, and I'm aware of what you've done, get Jack and things like that in between. But the obvious question is, why nine years? Why not four years? Five years? This time got away from us, man. I'm just getting to it. Well, Reb was working heavily in Whitesnake all that time. And as you know, I've got a lot of other projects going, classical music and get Jack. And quite a few solo shows. A lot of, actually, I wrote a lot of solo music that has yet to be released. But super busy, and time just got away from us. We actually started this album in 2019, but then COVID hit and kind of wiped everybody out. So it might have been out a little earlier, but basically because we were both too busy to get it together. Right, right. Well, I'm loving the record. As I've done, you had about a week. I only had about a week. So just been kind of trying to digest it in as quickly as possible. It's, I mean, comparing it to the last one, this seems a little more progressive. I liken this a little bit more to the four album. Cool, I appreciate that. Not many people notice the four, a winger four. That's one of my favorites. That's my, that is my favorite winger album. Oh, there you go. Thank you very much. I mean, I always play that to people. I play that album when people say, oh, winger, that, they're like a hand metal. They're like poison, right? I'm like, hang on, hang on a minute. You got it all wrong. I go try this and put on winger four. And I'm telling you, every single time without fail, people go, that's winger? You're kidding me, right? Wow. And it starts this whole thing, I go, check out Paul and then all these other records, and they're like, they're fans. I appreciate that very much, man. We're very misunderstood band. And in the early 90s, stuff didn't help us at all. When all that kind of stuff went down with grunge and all that's beavis and blood head and all that stuff, it really was kind of a nail in the coffin for a lot of people to just keep an open mind about who we actually are, you know? Part of it's our fault because we, I was not savvy about marketing and stuff like that. So I was, when Reb and I were writing the first album, we're like watching MTV and there's Bon Jovi and White Snake and Poison and Def Leppard and so it's, what are we gonna wear? Well, let's just do that kind of thing. We didn't have a, we were so focused on the music and if the solo is cool and if the riff is cool, that we didn't, we kind of just, well, like, we didn't like go, well, wait a minute, let's not dress up that much. Cause we were, you know, it's funny, I talked to Steve Vai about this and he's like, cause Steve's a very literate classical composer, but he's also like, hey man, I'm a ham. I like to dress up weird and do all kinds of weird stuff. And so we were a bit of Hamish, you know? And that didn't help us too much, but people like yourself get it. So you can't imagine how much I appreciate that cause Winger 4 was a very important record for me personally. It was like, I was right in the midst of this huge composition explosion in my mind and I applied pretty much all of it on that album. Well, I thought this was a brilliant comeback. Hear the songs that I really dig because I find that they're more, when you take them apart, there's a lot more complexity in the vocal lines or just in the music itself. Of course, proud to Sprada, which was your first single, tears of blood, broken glass. It all comes back around the do or die. Like I find that especially it all comes back. You know, there's a little more of the complex vocal lines and I'm even sure what the time signature is on that song. I mean, if you could tell me what the time signature is, I like it. It's a four four, but I do whole thing. Tricky stuff, yeah, yeah. I mean, I do a lot of kind of things that might make it trick your mind, you know. Not to trick your mind intentionally, but just to, you know, do the unexpected. Yeah, yeah, well, it works, it works, you know. So what did you do different on this album? Then the last album, which was a while ago. You know what? It's funny from the very first album, Reb and I sat down with a drum machine and we write a riff and then we write a melody and we carve out the arrangement. And, you know, it all develops like that. And I've been very loyal to the formula. If you kind of call it a formula, we start with that. And so every single record we go, okay. I like, Reb comes in, I'm like, show me a riff. What do you got? You know? And we'll just, you know, I don't try to finish a song right on the spot necessarily, but we'll, all right, cool, let's jam on that. Let's jam on this, let's jam on that. Okay, we got five riffs. Let's see what, maybe which one's the coolest? The cream rises to the top. Having said that on this album, this is the only album that every member of Winger played on every single song. So it's like the definitive, it's actually the definitive Winger album because Paul Taylor played on every song. And actually Paul has a solo on this album for the first time in our history. He played the solo on Broken Glass. And, you know, John usually has one song on there. He, John and I wrote One Light to Burn. Oh no, excuse me, one, what's it called? Yeah, One Light to Burn. And so to answer your question directly, I mean, the main difference is that it's all original guys are playing on every song. So it's really the ingredients of our whole history on every track on the album. And I tried to grab the inspiration from the first album and then combine it with the depth of the stuff that followed, you know, especially after Paul. Right, right. And you've gone back to, I don't know how many people sort of notice these things. I tend to. You've gone back to the classic Winger logo in the front cover. I just thought of that then because when you said it was a definitive Winger album, was that the reason? Yeah, totally. You know, let's bring the logo back. And it is a bit of all comes back around. It was all this kind of, it's not really like concept album or anything like that. But I was thinking, okay, this is Rod's turn 70, like three days ago. Like I'm not, if we do eight more years, like will this be our last album? I don't know, man, but, you know, I thought, wow, everything comes full circle. And then I was like, let's put the logo, let's put the original logo back, you know, to really set it apart, you know, to really, you know, make a statement. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and then again, listening to this record, and trying to internalize all of the music here, because there's a lot to kind of digest in the short time I've had the record, as I said, but there's something here for absolutely every Winger fan. I think, you know, fans of the first couple of records, you know, stick your knife in and twist and, you know, proud desperado, they could also be something off pull. But there's really all elements of Winger encompassing this. So when you said right then that this was the definitive Winger album, I tend to agree. Oh, thank you, thank you. One of those records that the more times you listen to it, I think the more rewarding it's gonna be as well. You're gonna, that's what I found with four. That's rewarding for me to hear you say that, man, because I really slaved over it, honestly. I just was really wanted every aspect of it to be right. And, you know, I worked extra hard on the singing and it's not a phoned in album. I mean, I insisted on everybody coming in and working with me on it. And you know, there's no like, let me email you my tracks or anything like that. We all, you know, everybody's in the room at some one time or another. And who will, because I feel like it's such a visceral thing. You feed off each other, especially in a band like this because it's very, you know, to do a band that's been around 35 years, especially with original members, it's a very narrow hole to get through where you have to go, okay. Everybody that knows this is gonna be expecting a certain sound because that's the sound of the band, you know. I hate the word brand, you know, but if you wanna use the word brand, but I don't like that word when it comes to art because it's, I'm first and foremost an artist. I mean, you know all this other stuff that I do. So I can't, I'm not really big on repeating myself, but having said that, it's very narrow hole that you can go through. We have to sound like the band, but you have to sound like you're pushing forward and you gotta give it something new, but it's gotta sound a little bit like the old stuff. And because people want, you know, you'll see some comments in the threads of videos and stuff, it was like, man, I really want the old stuff. The first two albums and other people will say something different. So you're kind of trying, I'm not writing for the people, but I'm trying to say with this band, who are we, what have we done? Where have we been and where are we going? You know, that's kind of how the equation that I try to put in there. So I appreciate you saying that. Yeah. You know what always perplexed me was the whole Beavis and Butthead that you spoke about just quickly at the beginning. I'll never understand it because when you guys first came out, all my musician friends were always sort of like, they always found you guys interesting and you're always sort of like, you're a musician's musicians kind of bad back then. If I could put that in the right context. Yeah. And Steve Grimit, who's been on the show many times and sadly passed away, Beavis and Butthead actually helped him, right? The ridicule actually propelled them into the masses in a sense, right? Whereas Beavis and Butthead sort of like, I'm not sure why it kind of reversed the situation for you or maybe it just was the timing that it seemed like it did that. Can you speak to that? Well, for example, I mean, we'll take white zombie. I mean, Beavis and Butthead were like, oh, white zombie's cool. And then white zombie went triple platinum. I mean, just like overnight. You know, it was the biggest show in MTV history. So a lot of people benefited from Beavis and Butthead, but we were like on the shirt of the geeky guy who represented that. It sucked. So then. That was me, by the way. That was me too. I was like, so I could relate to that guy, you know what I mean? I was the guy with the wing, I was the guy with the winger shirt and the winger L piece. So I was like, I didn't get it. I didn't get it. That's what I'm trying to get at. Go ahead. It's is strange and there's a lot of other bands that might have been better suited for that role. I don't actually know. I did speak to Mike Judge at through email at one point and he was just kind of like it just happened to stick. But I would, there's two parts to this question. One is how did that happen? And what, you know, kind of what, how did it affect us? I think it, you know, it hurt a lot of the bands like us. And there's, you know, you have to also add in the aspect of Metallica throwing darts at my poster. So that came first, you know, and I think they inadvertently chose us because of that. But, you know, Mike Judge said it was just luck of the dry, you know, bad timing, you know. And so, it's strange as far as the 80s goes though, I don't think that the 80s would have survived much longer anyway, because I think that, you know, the Elvis, the high schoolers liked Elvis and the junior high little brothers were like, we want our own music, here come the Beatles, you know, and then there in college and the younger, their younger siblings are like, we want our own band and here comes Led Zeppelin, you know, and then the Bee Gees and then punk and, you know, it just kind of goes cyclical and 80s music was, had run its course kind of, you know, we came a little too late, I think. But having said that, I mean, I think, I don't know, you know, we fall in the cracks of this kind of band full of muso guys that kind of got lumped into that. We certainly didn't dress up as much as Poison or somebody like that, but I mean, look, it is what it is, you know, it kind of, what happened for me, it all went so wrong that I was, and I tell this story a lot, a lot of people who know my story know this. I mean, I moved out to New Mexico, I mean, we lost our record deal, our publishing, everything was gone and then my first wife passed away in a car wreck and I was like, totally like in oblivion. And that's when I started, decided to write, to start studying classical music for real, you know, because I'd always wanted to write orchestral music and never felt like it was within my reach. And I thought, you know what, fuck it, I'm just gonna go for it, you know. And I had the time because I couldn't get arrested. I mean, there was no gigs to be had, you know, for years, so the only gig that I did during that time on my first solo record was Porter's bookstore at 4 p.m. in the afternoon playing to 10 people. After a year before that, playing to, you know, headlining 75, 8,000, 10,000 people. How does the record company drop a band? Like, I hear a lot of different stories, sometimes it's just by management, other times it's a phone call. I mean, you know, they always weave it into the deal like, hey, if we don't want you anymore, bing, you're gone, you know, you can't go, no, wait a minute, you have to put our record out. They just say, you know, let's cut our losses on this, you know. And how was the original record deal that you signed? Was it, did you have an advantage? Was there leverage? Or it was just basically like all the other record deals we hear about in the 80s where there was no publishing. No, we basically got signed on a favor because Bow Hill was very, you know, had a lot of clouded Atlantic records. And Bow had helped me a lot trying to get me a record deal and stuff. And finally we, the president who signed us, Doug Morris, was kind of like, don't play us any more of that Kip Winger shit, you know. And then he was like, just listen to this. And he played him state of emergency. And, you know, this sounds pretty good. And we were just like, give us the bare bones deal, you know, no frills. And so, and we'll just prove ourselves, you know. And so we kind of took that approach. It was a terrible record deal, you know. But we sold a lot of records on the first gut time out. And the rest of the story will be in my autobiography. Hey, what's that coming out? I'm still, I got another 10 years to live before we figure that one out. It's exciting, it's exciting for me to hear that you're working on solar material. Because I love, you know, songs from the ocean floor and this conversation feels like a dream. Thank you for the song. I really like it. That's really nice of you, I appreciate that. I've got a whole vision for it. And quite a few songs done for it. But it's always, you know, my approach to a record, part of the reason it takes me a very long time to make records, also to answer the question a long time ago, your first question was that I'm like, I raise the bar so high on each record. I'm like, okay, what am I gonna like to do something that's as good or better, you know? I just really don't wanna put out anything that's mediocre, you know? I'm a really, really hard on myself in terms of what I would let myself publish, you know? And so I have to think about it for a long time, you know? I have to, and work with ideas and try to understand how this is gonna, the puzzle's gonna actually fit as a piece of art itself, and then also in my catalog of stuff, you know? And so my solo, the idea of the solo record that I've got is there's a lot of songs, but it's also, I wanna like inject a little more of, not classical stuff, but a lot of more orchestral combination. And that'll be difficult because I hate like rock band with classical. I mean, I hate it. Like, you know, live album with the orchestra, like I don't wanna pick any bands out of my head because I don't wanna diss anybody, but bands that have played with an orchestra, it always just sounds so, I just don't like it because you can't integrate those two things. It just sounds like that. Well, essentially the orchestra is just playing while the guitars are playing, they're not, it doesn't make it classical music. You got a great year, man. You got a great year. So the thing is, is there's one guy that can do that, and that's Steve Vai. Like if you listen to his story, Petra Paul, he writes for the orchestra in a way that the band is interwoven into the sound, and it's like, okay, that works, you know? It's a lot of work. But I have a, you know, as you know, if you know my solo stuff, there's a very particular frequency that I work with in that realm, you know? It's in, and so the music that I'm collecting for that all works with that. It's nothing that would go on a Winger album. Sometimes the stuff that I do solo bleeds into Winger because I'm the main guy. So, I mean, some people have said like it all comes back around, for example, has a little bit of my solo feel to it. It does. I mean, I would definitely, that was actually gonna be my next question because that's exactly what I was, you know, every Winger album post, you know, solo albums, I've heard elements of that. And one question, the song, Daniel, off this conversation feels like a dream. What does that song about? Well, people commented on that, and I've always wondered. That song is, you know, I was writing about a friend of mine who was a very well-known producer, and, you know, kind of, he was the archetype in my mind about it, but it kind of turned out that I realized that it was more autobiographical, you know. It was more about me than it was about him, where it was just kind of like, I went back into the hills of New Mexico, and when I lived in Santa Fe, it was the only time I've ever lived anywhere where I didn't miss anything, you know. And it was kind of, it turned out quite, like I said, kind of autobiographical about how you're chasing this thing, and finally, you just kind of check out altogether, you know. I'd like to know, in regards to your classical music that you were talking about, how does one make money in that world? I mean, we understand the rock music has changed, and it's not that easy to make money, you know, in hard rock, heavy metal, but in classical music, just quickly. I mean, how does somebody even make money? Is it just you're selling your pieces? Well, you get commissions, there's a fee for getting a commission, and then when they perform your music, there's a, I'm with BMI, BMI ASCAP CSEC, that one of these institutions will collect for the performance fee, and then interestingly with symphonic orchestras, they pay you to rent your score, so there's a score rental fee, and I've been very lucky. I've gotten quite a few commissions, and it's really rare for a person like myself, if I thought going into it, it was gonna be, you know, listen, I thought it was out of my reach, I mean, I just did it for the love of it, but those are the ways that you do that, so if you take a big composer of today, who's a living composer, like my composition teacher, Michael Curick or Richard Danielpore, you know, they're pieces, especially Richard, he gets a lot of pieces played, so if you, even though it's not so much money, if it's a lot of performances, it starts to add up. A guy like John Adams, you know, he's got performances probably every day of the, every day of every season with multiple orchestras, so you know, it's not huge money, I would make a couple hundred grand a year, maybe more, I don't know, but it's not rock star money. I've been, I was lucky to make enough money to not have to worry so much about money, I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but to be very clear, money fucks up art, and I do not, I even feel that taking a commission is too cumbersome for me to even write music because it's got like, okay, they're paying me to write this piece, it's like, oh my God. You can send this check, the check over here, though. Okay, yeah. It's all right, just. Yeah, I'm starting, I'm getting used to that. I know, I know exactly what you're saying. I know what you're saying. You know what I'm saying? Like in my mind, money fucks up art, period. But sometimes it creates art as well, right? The arguments, the dynamics, the hunger, I need money, so I gotta do this sometimes. Absolutely, absolutely. I'm just saying if artists that become really successful and then like, well, I'm not gonna do it if you don't pay me a certain amount of money. Or even albums like rock bands, like why should we make an album? No one buys them. What's the point? And I disagree with that philosophically entirely because I feel like writing music, well, I mean, it is the very fiber of my being to compose music. But I feel like what it is, it's an emotional connection to the people that have been on your journey. That's what it's all about. It's like, it's not about anything else. It's all about the fact that basically we're all the same. And so I just happen to have this gift that I feel like if I don't use it, it's kind of a sin. And the point is not to make money. The point is to connect with whoever connects to the particular gift that I have. That's totally where I live in my philosophy. I mean, I 100% agree. That is something that I find so strange when bands say, well, what's the point? No one buys them. Well, how do you know a hundred years from now there won't be a million people listening to it? Totally, and even if it's one, I learned that when my career went to shit and I was playing to 10 people in Borders Books, those 10 people were like, God, this is amazing. And I worked it back one person at a time. And I learned that if you just connect to one person, that's enough, you know? Because it kind of energetically, it exponentially goes out into the universe, you know? I mean, I know this all sounds kind of esoteric, but these are things that I really believe. Well, D Purple, I think it was Ian Gillin, he said, I went to a reporter asked him, well, why do you still make albums? Nobody buys it. Well, that's what we do. We make music. We make albums and I don't care if one person buys it or a thousand people are 10,000. That's what our essence is. That's what we do. Exactly. Yeah, so hats off to you on that. Yeah, thanks. The last real musician. Well, I mean, there's a lot of guys out there and guys and gals. I mean, I don't mean to be saying that, you know, there's a lot of artists that, you know, the thing about being an artist is like, you can't not do it, you know? And I always say that to people, man, of like, if you can do something else and just do it, because the only reason to do art is if you can't not do it, you know? It's one of those things where, I mean, it even affects my psyche and my mood. I'm not great to be around unless I've worked on something that's, you know, working out a section of, like I'm writing a violin concerto right now and I'm like really stuck on something. And if I work for a day and like make a breakthrough, I'll be in a great mood. You know, it's all very cathartic and that's just the journey of an artist. I mean, I'm no different than, you know, probably a billion people out there that do art on any level, painting, sculpting, anything. And, you know, I'm no different than any of them. Do you have any regrets that you said of what I could have shut up? But I mean, you didn't, you know, I wish I would have done it this way, either in the music, hard rock or classical, you know, your sort of timeline. I don't, I don't. I feel like I would have liked to remix the second album. That's the only thing. But actually when I listened to it, it's pretty good. There's some stuff that I would change, you know, and I have the masters I would like to go back and remix them just for people to hear without like the 80s snare samples and stuff, just the raw tracks of the band, you know. I think it'd be very interesting for people to hear that. But I really don't have any regrets. I do have a kind of a melancholic sadness about the fact that the band got the shit kicked out of them and what could have been with this band, you know, because we were really on the verge of being bonafide headliners and we, with production and all that stuff. I mean, what could have been, I do have some remorse about that, but that was not in my control. That wasn't a decision that I made. Yeah, you can never control these things. You never know what's gonna happen in life. And it could go both ways. Like you didn't know the first album was gonna take off just as much as you didn't know, later on, things wouldn't work out, right? Totally. Thank you, Kip, for being on the show. Love to do this again in the near future. And everybody out there, May the 5th, 7, Winger's new album on Frontier's music. Thank you guys, appreciate it very much. Thank you very much, Kip. You take care.