 Hello, hi everyone. Welcome to the Virtual North Shore Garden Tour. I'm Lynn Brockington, Community Experience Coordinator at West Vancouver Memorial Library. Tonight, as part of our Fall Garden Series, four local gardeners are going to share with us their beautiful gardens. Our first garden, created by Laura Marie, is an example of urban permaculture in West Vancouver. Laura has her certificate in permaculture design and has studied its subsets of regenerative agriculture, rewilding, civil pasture, horse farming, and mushroom farming. Laura's lifelong passions of culinary anthropology and growing and preserving food inspired her to interpret and reimagine permaculture principles for urban environments in an effort to become more resilient and self-sufficient herself and to inspire as many people as possible to grow, eat, and preserve sustainably. So Laura's going to come on now, she's going to join us and if you, hi Laura, hi. Hi, thank you and welcome to my urban permaculture garden. Permaculture is a kind of complicated idea, but I've simplified it for myself and for you into a design system for sustainable living and land use that adheres to natural logic. It was, it applies primarily to rural environments and it is centered on three governing ethics, which are earth care, people care, and fair share. So if we look after the earth and people and share what we have, that will help us move through the 12, the 12 principles, which you can learn more about if you wish. They're listed here for feature reference, but they start with observation and move through, I can't see because my picture is over top of this, conservation, integration, and observation, and adaptation. That's it. Okay. Urban permaculture, this I can talk about forever. I believe it is a way forward for all of us. It's for the masses, for people who live in cities and the millions, hundreds of millions of people who live in urban environments. It offers something for everyone and it embraces the ethos and ethics of permaculture. My favorite part is it is as much about art and intuition as it is about science and structure. My favorite advice that I give people is not to worry about following the rules to just imagine and implement as many permaculture principles as you can and you are permitted to live beautifully, righteously, and sustainably. This is why. So here on the right, this is our home site. It is a drone shot taken in August of our home as it is now. It was built 72 years ago. Up until six months ago, our front yard was just a big grass field and we did all of our living in the back. On that left pointy end, we grew vegetables and fruit. We lived there. We had a naturalized garden. Very beautiful. On the left, you'll see the permaculture, the rural permaculture zone ideals. This would be any property, a big property, rural property, whose owner would have lived there and observed it for a year or more, sited their homestead and then built their installations out in concentric circles based on hydrology, wind, water, weather systems, animal, pasturing, and different things. Had we purchased our property as an empty lot, we would have done the same thing, starting in the middle and working out. But because we moved into our house, I guess 21 years ago, 20 years ago, it came with all sorts of foibles and we had, what do you call those things? We had utilities, hardscaping, roads, neighbors, all kinds of rules and bylaws. Of course, it doesn't work out that way and it never does in urban environments. It actually worked out like this, which is fine and normal and typical of an urban environment. And that leads me to my next point, which is just do your best. If you're into permaculture and what it stands for, then you just learn and follow the principles, you garden organically, you design intuitively, you create and respect habitat and you waste nothing. So, and this is going to be a shocker based on the photo you saw. This was our front yard in March. A big, flat, empty space that was full of possibilities. When we moved into the property, we were surrounded by trees. We had a beautiful microclimate, lots of privacy and things changed in the last six years where we lost a lot of the trees. We got a lot of wind, a lot of runoff, water runoff. But nonetheless, we had this beautiful blank slate, a healthy soil. The leafletter was always left, leafletter. Sorry, it fed the soil biology. We had good drainage. We had beautiful 72-year-old hedge outside the fence. We had nice boxwoods. And behind us, we had some mature conifers, maple and a beautiful wisteria standard and some paving, a small greenhouse and in-ground irrigation. So, a nice blank canvas. We had some ideas. COVID hit and we went into lockdown and we also got very busy. And five months later, this is what we had. A really beautiful lush urban permaculture, almost farm. We had no-dig raised beds, nine of them. We had a mini fruit orchard, fruit and nut orchard. We had a food forest running the perimeter of our property under a trellis. We'd started converting the lawn into a pollinator, like a pollinator turf kind of a thing. We'd built privacy and wind barriers. We had in-ground worm composting. We'd rewilded to some extent. And we had some water management, some permaculture water management tools in place. We were planning for 12-month food production. And we had already tested and cited some spots for mushroom garden, a sod-covered root cellar and a keyhole garden. So, we'll just go through a couple more views here. You can see it's quite pretty. All in five months, believe it or not. That's permaculture for you. So, starting with the beds. So, we have the beds are four by eight by 20 inches or two by eight by 20. They were lasagna layered. So, I used composted sod on the bottom. I dug up 500 square feet of sod last year and I left them to compost. So, I laid cardboard over that and put organic compost on top. I treated the wood organically. It's no dig, so there are no weeds. The soil is very healthy. It's full of organic nutrients, lots of microbes, and a very healthy mycorrhizal fungi network, which we'll see a little bit later. And the beds are oriented west to east and that's just what I thought intuitively would work and it actually does. So, you can see on the top left there's a couple of beds just getting top dressed with some more compost. The soil is very healthy. The mushrooms kind of are an indicator of that. We have a raised bed on the bottom middle picture there. That's an old iron bed that's got about, it gets about four hours of sun a day. So, it's really good for greens. They don't get burned. They don't bolt. And the smaller beds we use for tomatoes and potatoes. And in the back, the picture in the middle is a raised bed, one of several we have around the back. And that's how I garden for years. They're aluminum feed troughs, animal feed troughs, and they're on casters and I can move them in and out of the sun, in and out of the rain. Works really well. Worm composting is kind of fundamental to the urban permaculture garden. You can see a black in the foreground on the bottom right. There's a black, it's about 24 inches deep worm compost. It is black plastic, quarter inch holes drilled all around. We compost our kitchen waste in there, eggshells, coffee grounds. We supplement with brown paper or leaves, a little bit of hardwood ash. And we populated it with some neighbors red wiggler worms. And soon enough, there were just, there's like, I don't know how many, I'd say millions. It seems like millions. There are a lot. And they go in and out of there. They eat, they come back into the dirt and poop, which is great. And we keep, the trick is, of course, is to keep it well watered, keep the ants out, produce the compost tea, and keep it littered and submerged below the soil level other than the lid, just to keep the bears away. You can see the little guys there on the left. The compost are a really great way of keeping the garden clean and just making life easy. When I'm cleaning the beds, I just toss the yucky bits into the worm compost. And when I'm cleaning the root veg, I do it there in a bucket. I pour everything then back into the compost. So you have a compost tea going into a worm compost tea and everybody's happy. An herb spiral. This is a very popular permaculture installation. It is typically situated within 10 feet of a kitchen door. Mine is 75 feet from the front door. Not ideal, but that's what worked. That's where the sun was. It's based on a natural shape found in nature, which is the Fibonacci or a snail shell, a nautilus shell. It is meant to create multiple microclimates over the various elevations. That's what I'm looking for. So there are many different drainage, soil, sunlight, shade, companion planting situations over the course of this installation. And it runs the whole gamut of like a Mediterranean dry climate in the top south to a bog or wetland environment on the bottom north. So there's actually a little watercress pond bottom north, which spills into a bog of Labrador tea. And these things are very difficult to grow under the best circumstances, but this little baby just looks after itself. I don't water it, although it gets watered with the lawn and rain, and it just percolates down and does what it needs to do naturally. How many fruit orchard? We have 18 fruit trees, fruit and nut trees, on dwarf stock. There's apples, pears, plums, cherries, and an almond, and a crab apple for cross pollination. They're planted in guilds of three, so that they're planted in guilds of three with lots of airspace in a column of the center of the trees. And that column is important that it's kept clean with no cross branches, so that air and light can get in and the trees stay disease free. They're pruned to seven feet. I'll never let them get on seven feet because I can reach seven feet. I can see aphids, I can clean them, I can prune them, I can harvest, I can do what I need to do. They're underplanted with guilds of plants that attract beneficial insects and pollinators. They mulch and keep the soil cool. They're also very pretty, and I haven't had any problems, really. Well, a few aphids, but we look after those with ladybugs. So here you can see the planting in the spring, just when we're putting in the berry patch. And on the right you can see a columnar, that is a golden, something or other apple, but it's amazing how in just three feet you can get so many apples. And it'll just get more prolific as time goes by. That's just a new tree. On the bottom center there you can see an espilier apple in a container in the backyard. And that's how we used to garden. And that is my bait tree. So I let the squirrels and raccoons go to town on that tree and they feel like they're getting something over on me. And I'm happy they do because they leave the fruit out front alone. We have a persimmon, a potted persimmon here on the left. I put it in a pot on root to wherever it was going, but then it set fruit, a ton of fruit, most of which actually fell off to the ground as the tree was self-regulating and deciding for itself how many persimmon it could support. And that looks like we'll have 12% in December, which I'm excited about. The top right photo there is of a plum, which has five varieties grafted onto it. And that was really exciting because we had yellow egg, we had damson, green gauge, quite a few actually. It was pretty fun. And the bottom, bottom middle photo, you can see that there is an almond, very healthy almond tree in the middle. And the pums are on the left. And the far right, there are three columnar cherries. And we didn't get any cherries. We had lots, but the birds ate them. And we have a small berry patch. This wasn't meant to be a permanent place for the berries. It was just meant to be a nursery bed transition. Three different kinds of gooseberries, currants, blueberries, and they are planted strategically downhill so that the blueberries on the bottom, which like the most acid, get the most acid, and the, what do you call these guys, the gooseberries at the top, get the least. And like with the apples, I forgot to mention, all of the fruit, we pick them just before they're ripe so that we don't get any bears, raccoons. They seem to know exactly when things are ripe and come in and wreak havoc, but we get, we pick before and we haven't had any problems at all. Quite a few. It was actually a very prolific, there were buckets of fruit from those tiny little plants. Bees. We have a lot of, we have, we love bees. We love native bees and non-native bees. These are native bees. They, they don't live very long. They live four to six weeks. They live in this, in this habitat, ideally under the eaves of the house with morning sun, with the access to water. You see the little water feeders with pebbles, bees drown easily, so they need feeders like that. They need access to dirt, to seal the eggs in those little tubes that you saw earlier, and they need early blooming food source. So Heather, the cornelian cherry, cornelian cherries bloom in February. It's a native plant that a lot of people, not that many people know about. And then the rest of the native bees and non-native bees love the lavender. We planted 120 heather alba plants along the lower perimeter of the fence and under the arbor. They bloom October through May, so they're great for bees. They're also extraordinarily good for bee gut health. They keep bees healthy and bee. There's been such a lack of diversity in bee habitat that populations are falling, but this is, this is a good thing anybody can do for bees, this plant, heather alba. We've got honeysuckle all over. We've got about 100 feet of it running the eaves of the house, plus a little archway in the back. And then also when my vegetables go to seed, or if I need, sometimes I just like them to go to seed, but I will cut, I'll cut the stalks and put the the flowers in a bucket and they'll stay there two or three weeks and the bees are happy and I get to move on with my planting. Speaking of bees, we are replacing our lawn with a pollinator turf. It requires much less water, it needs very little mowing, attracts pollinators, it's weed resistant, chaffer beetles hate it, and I like it because you don't have to worry about edging because it's kind of messy around the edges, but it's also very pretty, frilly and flowery and it's really lovely. I tested it in areas you can see on the left, the lower area there, that is chaffer beetle territory. I planted the top part with the turf, it takes a very long time to germinate, but once it does it's really resilient and tough and you can see the difference there very clearly. It's very pretty. And ground covers, I am very happy or very, excuse me, lucky I suppose because I love moss. I love moss, I love all kinds of tiny green wild things and I hate weeding, so I am all about letting the moss grow everywhere and all the ferns, the wild violet, the bearberry, the leading heart, more than Mary. It's not for everyone, I realize that, but I think it's quite beautiful. And we've been rewilding, so we are slowly trying to rid ourselves of plants that just take a lot of care, take resources, a lot of maintenance and give nothing back except maybe one or two days of a pretty flower, and we're replacing them with wild, wild species that are righteous, give us something back, require low input and maybe provide medicine or a food source for wild creatures. There's a list there that you can refer to later, but you can see this here and there throughout the yard in the top left we've got some goat's beard and goat's beard is beautiful in the shade. It throws a really beautiful bright white, you can see on the bottom flower that really lights up the darker areas of your garden. Top middle is a native honeysuckle, it loves deep shade, which is unusual for a honeysuckle, and it and the hummingbirds love it. And the maidenhair fern pops up all over the place. The plant on the middle bottom that looks like a maple is a high bush cranberry, and that is under planted with evergreen huckleberry, and then there's sword fern, so it looks quite beautiful I think, and it is native. And on the right we have fun carose, which is popping up all over the place. We manage pests naturally, as naturally as we can, ladybugs, they're in a little ladybug habitat. They eat aphids under our fruit trees. We gild plants, we use row cover, we use bait plants, we keep the beds as clean as we can so that slugs aren't attracted, we just use the worm compost. See ladybugs there happily munching away the aphids on the chamomile that is under planted the fruit gilds, fruit tree gilds. And the nasturtium was bait for the aphids as well. They never went to the nasturtiums, but we also didn't get an infestation of aphids this year, which was great. And the lavender, I pick some of the lavender, we have a big lavender worm, and I leave it in the tomato beds between the tomato and the basil, and it keeps the insects away. It looks really pretty. I've never had any issues with tomatoes in 10 years. And then the copper mesh you see there in the green in the bed, the spinach with the spinach. I'm not sure what happens with the slugs. Something happens when the slime meets the copper, and it must hurt because the slugs don't bother my greens at all. Mushrooms, we have identified, we'll just go ahead here, an area at the back of the garden on the north end, you see the log there on the left, and an area where we can see go back here. I put a big leaf maple log in that, slice a log in that spot over the winter to see what would happen, and it grew some turkey tail mushrooms, which told me that that was a great spot to start mushroom gardening. So shiitake logs, lion's mane there in the middle, lots of deep, beautiful woody ground, not very much wind, a little bit of morning sun. So we'll experiment with that next year. I put a couple of photos of some indoor mushroom farming that my daughter and I did. We didn't really know what we were doing, but we inoculated some pasteurized and inoculated some straw with some green spawn oyster mushrooms. We did pretty well with that. Stored heat, this is a great permaculture tool to use thermal mass to store energy, solar energy during the day to release it at night slowly and to reflect the heat off vertical surfaces that store heat also like homes. This little covered outdoor area in the back, we have 18 trellis tomatoes here and those tomatoes throw fruit right through November, well past first frost. It's open on two sides, it's an L shape, it's covered with an open glass cover and you can see in the bottom middle there that the plant is long past dead and the fruit is still ripening. It's a great trick, not unlike the lavender against the thermal mass of the brick or in a concrete planter. So finally, that went by quickly, I just want to bring the chat back around to habitat and to permaculture and permaculture as a way to live your life, to manage your life, manage your land and just follow nature's logic and to think about our planet as a sentient being that knows what it's doing and will keep us all safe and regulated and support life if we kind of leave it alone, which we haven't done, we've actually caused quite a lot of damage and but we can fix it all of us and millions of people living in cities and that's where urban permaculture comes in. If we create a tiny habitat, just a tiny habitat on our windowsill or a balcony or front yard, we can make a big dent in the universe and live forever. That's it. Thank you very much. Thank you. Wow. I honestly can't believe this garden of yours is in West Vancouver. It looks like it's in, I don't know, like Langley or like it looks like you have acres and acres. I know it's surprising. Permaculture is crazy. It's like magical if you just get it right. Yeah. Yeah, you've done so much and I mean, I know you probably do have a fair to large lot, but you've done so much. Fabulous. So Laura, there are some questions and I'll just start in the chat. So Midge is asking, how does no dig translate to no weeds? Okay. Well, I started with organic compost. So it's well composted. The weed seeds are dead. So weeds only happen when you disturb the soil and they don't happen. If you don't disturb the soil, you will not get weeds. They mean the odd sunflower seed is planted by a steller jay or something and I'll pick that out, but there are no weeds at kids. You're not. If you plant in organic compost and you only compost from the top, you leave the roots of the plants in instead of pulling the plant out and just topdress with compost, there will be no weeds. I promise. Wow. Wonderful. Wow. Okay. Judith is asking what the plant was that blooms all winter. Heather Elba? Heather Elba. It's actually a heath, I think. There's heaths and heathers. Yeah, Heather Elba. It's white. Okay. So where did you have that planted? Was that... Where was it planted? It was planted. I mean, they're all over. I've got them around the perimeters of the bed, but also around the perimeter of the fence. Okay. So they're very bright white, so it helps light up the darker, the shadier areas, but yeah. And what was the hedge tree that you had growing? What was that? Was it you? You had your head? Laurel. There's a 10-foot deep Laurel hedge that's been here since I think the house was built. Wow. And the fence is on the inside of that and the trellis is attached to it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Jillian is asking what plants do you use under fruit trees? I use borage or borage and chamomile and chives. You can use mint as a good one, fennel as a good one, but I use those three because I just like the architecture of how they spill from the center. And the plants that you put under those fruit trees is to track insects, right? Yes. And to mulch the soil. Right. And pollinators, attract pollinators. Yeah. Okay. Another question from Judith is, what does it mean to guild plant? Guild, like a group, a grouping. In permaculture we talk about guilds. Sorry, that's my dog. I knew that was going to happen. Yeah, you plant in guilds and that's one of the principles is to integrate, not segregate. And things want to be together. They feed each other and they help each other just like people do. So we plant in guilds always. Okay. Okay. So please tell us more about the ladybugs. How do you encourage them to live in your garden? Do you introduce them as eggs? No, I actually, I got them online. You can attract ladybugs if you have a real strong biodiversity, you will attract ladybugs. But because I started so quickly, what I did was I did two things. I bought a ladybug habitat, which is a little ladybug house which I put on the fence by the fruit trees. But then I did some research on ladybug habitat and I just built one in the ground between the companion plants under the trees. And the ladybugs, when they arrived in the little bags in the mail, I put them into the habitat and they just loved it. They just stayed there. And they are still using it. They're still using it. They're, I don't know. I think I'm not smart or great or brilliant. Honestly, I just looked up ladybug habitat and built one. Okay, good. And finally, oh no, two more. Okay, Eve is asking why don't you put coffee grounds in your worm compost? Why? Is it acid? It's a little bit of everything. It's like putting carbon, brown paper or leaves and brown leaves for brown, green acid. Ash, I also put wood ash from the hardwood burnt in the fireplace. But you can't put too much because you don't want it to become too acid. Just a little bit. So you put some coffee grounds in, right? I put some in. Not a dairy ghost. You know, no, I don't. Like I have the green, the bucket under the sink and I probably put 25% of the coffee grounds into it. I don't know if that's the right ratio, but it works for me. Yeah, yeah. You know something I was wondering about with your composters because they were sunk into the ground, right? So how do you get the compost out? You know what, it just keeps going down. Okay, okay, I get it. So there's no bottom to the... There is a bottom, but the worms, they just eat it and it turns into soil and it goes out the sides and out the holes in the bottom into the garden. So I mean it could be full and then I'll come back and it's gone down and I'll fill it up and it goes down. It's like a perfect little system. Wow, that's great. So because I have the standing one, right? It's got the little drawer at the bottom and you open that up and pull up your compost. I am not that clever to get that ratio right. I have never figured that out actually. But you were saying the reason you sunk them is because of bears. Yes, yeah, we have bears, you know, up where we are. We have bear issues and the last thing I want to do is get a bear killed because I invited them into my yard. Yeah, yeah. Have you had any bears in your yard yet? Not because of any permaculture thing or fruit or vegetable problem. I mean bears are always around here and they do come in. I mean we're gated but they'll come over the eight foot fence and snoop around and but they don't go after any anything I've grown. Wow, well you were saying yeah you pick the berries before they're really ripe and yeah that seems really smart. Okay, now why can't you put onion or garlic in the compost? So that may... Well apparently worm, everything I've read and what I've been told is that compost worms do not like alien, they don't like at all. But I do have, having said that, I have a worm compost in a bed that was planted with leeks and those worms are really damn happy. Like so I don't know the logic. Maybe leeks are sweeter than most onions and garlic. Actually there was garlic in that bed too but it didn't bother the worms but that's the rule anyway. Okay, I'm going to do one more question for you before we get to our next presenter and so this one is about raised beds. What would you recommend filling new raised beds with? Many topsoil sold at garden centers seem to be a mix of sand and compost missing silk clay. You know what, I would look for a municipal source of organic compost. There I would, I would do the lasagna layering too. I'd put some sod at the bottom or any kind of green scrap, a layer of... I just stopped you share. Someone asked, I think they couldn't see us very well so. Okay, so yeah a layer of cardboard and then I would ask for organic compost to be delivered or you can you pick it up and or veggie mix. There's something called veggie mix that you can get through. I know you can get it in Vancouver. I'm not sure about the North Shore but it's similar and that's what I would use. I definitely would as opposed to... I'm not that familiar with the packaged products but I'm sure there's somebody out there that is. It's just not me. Yeah, yeah and it's because it's probably at this point you're not buying soil anymore right? You... No, although you know it will sink some more because they're new beds. I will probably be buying another dump truck load in the spring. Okay, okay, okay. Well gosh that was so so so interesting. There are a few more things in the, in the chat, excellent presentation, great inspiration. That's nice to hear. That's lovely. But we can we can have a few more questions at the very end. So thank you. Thank you so much Laura. As one of our attendees said inspiring and that's that's for sure is really wonderful to hear about. Thank you so much. I enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Good, so I'm going to now introduce our next speaker which is Nora Gambioli and Nora and sure many of you know because she is a municipal counselor. She's been a counselor since 2011 and Nora is a fourth generation West Vancouverite and she got me a horseshoe bay where her Italian father a very large fruit and vegetable garden and I know this because I live next door to it. It was absolutely fabulous, very productive and now Nora has her own garden where she feeds birds and bees and and her family and educates the local community. So I'll just ask Nora to join us now. Hello Nora. Hi. Hello there. Hello. So I'm going to turn it over to you. All right. Is that working for everybody? For most people? Nora it looks great. Looks wonderful. Okay, great. Well thanks for the invitation Lynn and I clearly need to take a permaculture course. That's going to be my next career. I don't have quite as many gorgeous photos as as Laura but I will do my best. So this is a picture of the front of our place. We bought our property four years ago and so we are still in the planning stages of the garden. The house is built in 1938 and has had several owners and so the garden is not super well planned and it's a bit all over the place but what we are trying to do is similar to Laura try to plant as many native plants as we can and to help the birds and the bees and grow food for ourselves and benefit the neighborhood and the community and help to educate people a little bit if possible. So I'll start with the birds and I have a picture here. Here's a picture at the back of our property. If you look way up at the top you can see there is a nest and that is a woodpecker nest and we've had that woodpecker nest for 10 years. We brought it from our other property and various and sundry squirrels have been nesting in it but this past year we finally had flickers and they finally had babies and so that was very heartening and at the end of my presentation I'm going to give 10 points to whoever can guess or who knows what these long tall plants are on either side in the foreground of the the woodpecker nest. I won't tell you right now but we'll see if anybody can guess what those are. So we help out other birds. We've had several chickadee families in a couple of different chickadee nests and of course as with Laura we're trying to always help hummingbirds. We're pretty sure we have at least one or two pairs nesting next door in Hay Park and so the hummingbirds are around all year so we've got one fuchsia around and of course we've also got honeysuckle and a plant that I recently Laura would know this I suppose or other experienced gardeners would know this but I just recently learned that this what I call the snowball bush has little tiny tiny pink flowers in the spring and through the summer and it is absolutely adored by hummingbirds and of course it's a native plant and it is adored by all types of bees, native bees and honeybees as well so I love this plant and I highly recommend this one. So speaking of bees of course we have the requisite plants that will make honeybees happy. We've tried honeybees on three different years now but we've never managed to make them live allow them to help them live through the winter so we keep trying but we also have the usual other bee attractants I love echinacea of course we've got different kinds of lavender and catmint and salvia around and similar to Laura one of our favorites is the evergreen huckleberry. This in the spring provides great little flowers for the native bees the honeybees and bumblebees and of course provides food for birds and squirrels at the moment and us if we care to pick them so this evergreen huckleberry I love this plant and here's a new one that landed in our garden a couple years ago I did not plant this and from the research that I've done some of you might know better than me but the research that we've done indicates that it's a plant called hisop and it seems to look a little bit like catmint or lavender but it's taller and all of the native bees especially bumblebees absolutely are crazy for this plant and it flowers with these purple flowers from probably the middle of May until the end of August it's absolutely fantastic in fact we cut some of the branches off and put them in a vase on our picnic table and the bees came and enjoyed it as the centerpiece of our table on many occasions and they would join us for our meals so that's fun and of course as Laura pointed out the humble mason bee this is one of our mason bee hives with the tubes at the end of the summer in fact I just finished cleaning all the tubes last night but the mason bees of course pollinate our apple trees we have three different apple trees I'm not as fancy as Laura so I got the apple trees before they invented the columnar apple trees so anyway but the mason bees of course helped with the apples they helped with the plum tree that we have the cherries and they helped with this one which some of you may recognize as a peach tree unfortunately some local rodents got a hold of all of the young peaches and we didn't get to eat any peaches but the mason bees also helped to pollinate the neighboring nectarine tree and for some some reason the rodents didn't see the nectarines so we were really lucky in getting probably about 40 nectarines off one large branch of this particular tree this summer so I was pretty happy with the nectarines so other food that we like to grow for ourselves I'm a big fan of rhubarb because of course it takes up a lot of space it makes you look like a really expert gardener without having to do much because of my Italian heritage of course I have to grow grapes and figs as well these grapes of course were ravaged by the local raccoons and so what we do is we put small brown paper lunch bags on top of the groups of grapes and tie them at the top and once the birds and raccoons can't see the grapes they usually leave them alone and then they can ripen on their own inside the bags because the grapes don't actually need the sun to ripen they just need the sun on their leaves so we were able to salvage a lot of grapes this year with that methodology and of course we have the requisite tomatoes and other traditional vegetables that my family likes to enjoy peas cucumbers beans asparagus herbs etc but not in quite such an organized fashion as Laura's garden other food sources I have found out recently that this plant little ground cover the humble wintergreen is actually a very delicious berry and it tastes a little like spearmint it's a lovely berry and perhaps a lot of you already know this but I didn't know what was edible until recently and a new plant I don't know I hate I hesitate to call it an edible because I'm not quite sure yet how edible it is but I will chalk this up to my husband's idea so yes we did have one cannabis plant in the backyard this year for the first time um so moving on this is the front of our property now this is the boulevard so the last part of what I'm going to show you is is the public part of our property this is the the sort of community part of my presentation so this was our front yard of the east no sorry west side of our front yard 18 months ago ravaged by a chaffer beetle so we took chunks one foot chunks of turf out and flipped it upside down and took out the chaffer beetles and threw the chaffer beetles on the road for the crows and proceeded from west to east along this boulevard for about a total of about two months my husband and I did it all together and this is looking west at that section of the yard 18 months ago and now that same section of the yard looking east looks like or looked like this about uh six weeks ago so we were pleased with uh with that improvement and hopefully the birds and bees were pleased as well um and on the east side of the front boulevard here's a picture of my husband uh we're working as I said west to east so we're getting close to finishing all of the turf there in that picture but by now we have really befriended the crows and every day we would come out for an hour or two and as soon as we arrived a family of three crows would descend with us expecting their chaffer beetle food uh and after we had finished the entire process of course they would come back every time we then came out to do any kind of planting or watering and they would scream at us because we were no longer feeding them but anyway so now we we have definitely crow friends uh at the front of the property so now um the front boulevard looks like this on the east side I just took this picture two days ago so some things have already grown and died off for the season but anyway this is what it looks like at the beginning of October so we've got some out on the boulevard there we've got some brussel sprouts we've got some leeks we've got some uh red currants we've got quite uh a few blueberries and we have one of my new favorite plants in the whole wide world to eat uh yellow raspberries so these are ever-bearing raspberries they're still growing I just had some today and they are amazing and I would argue they actually taste better than regular red raspberries so when the yellow and the blue uh blueberries are um growing together this is what we get bowls and bowls of yellow raspberries and blueberries so my kids are happy also on the boulevard we planted a few pumpkin plants they didn't grow super well this year but that pumpkin there in August turned into this pumpkin there I took that picture this morning so uh that's uh the um the kids uh who walk by are often interested in what's growing in the garden so I thought I would grow some pumpkins this year for them we also have a couple of artichoke plants that we tried for the first time this year and they are just stunning and of course the bees really loved those as well I'm very fond of little wild strawberries and I planted those along the boulevard but very few people seem to know what they are or that they're edible or perhaps people were too shy to take any so I actually had to stick uh little signs in the ground uh that you can see say strawberries to eat and so now the kids walk by and uh some adults too of course and they pick the strawberries um and in amongst them we finally realized we have a an albino wild strawberry plant that only produces white wild strawberries we finally realized they were never getting ripe and then my kids tried them and they said oh they taste really good mummy so I researched it and apparently you can have albino strawberries so we have an albino strawberry plant that that just created itself uh which is kind of fun and the other thing I like to do for the rest of the community is when I buy new plants and plant them I keep the tag with the plant for six months or a year so that people walking by who are interested in gardening can see uh what it is and how it grows and when it blooms and uh so people seem to be quite thankful uh those who are interested and uh then I can remember what I planted as well and finally I like to entertain the community when I can so we have a little painted bunny and the kids walk by and pat the bunny and we created uh an inuksuk that you can see in the bottom right here this summer from stones that we brought from Shushuap Lake and finally we we want to attract uh you know wildlife and last sunday I was having breakfast and we did have a visitor but fortunately we had picked all the apples off the tree the main tree and uh our friend here didn't actually notice the one remaining apple tree that was in the far corner that uh has apples that are not ripe yet so um he didn't he or she didn't notice those ones anyways but um didn't really mean to attract this type of wildlife but it does happen very rarely in fact it's the first time in four years that we've actually seen a bear anyway so that wraps up um everything I was going to say and show you and getting back to that slide from the beginning I don't know that's right what that long and tall plant is yeah let I'm gonna look in the chat and see if anyone has uh dared to answer and don't think so but there is a question in the chat so we oh someone says sun choke oh that right that is right sun chokes yes absolutely that's the correct answer so well ten points I was out for dinner last night and um someone I was with ordered a dish with had sun chokes in it so where do they grow are they is it a root the sun choke that you eat the apple part so it is yeah it's a root and it's a little bit the plant is a bit like a potato so you can pull up that whole plant and it will have like half a dozen or more um of the okay okay well okay very good so shall we go to some questions now um let's see so Nora Sally's asking will evergreen huckleberry thrive in a pot hmm that's a good question well I don't see why not um I imagine they like quite acidic soil but uh I don't I don't I can't see why not yeah okay yeah I think it probably could they seem very they seem very easy to grow and my experience is that if they're in the shade they will definitely grow but they won't produce much fruit but if they're in the sun uh uh they produce a lot of fruit okay okay um Judith is asking what was the name of the plant with white berries that bees love uh that well I call it as a snowball um bush but uh you know Laura might know or someone else might know better than me it's a native plant and um you'll see it in um some forested areas uh it was it was already on the property so I didn't buy it but uh it's uh it's got it the photo that I showed I just took today so it's got little white um snowballs on it at this time of year and in the spring it's got little tiny tiny pink uh flowers right yeah well maybe if someone does know what it's called they can they can let us know um question about the mason bee tubes how do you clean them oh that's a great question yeah depends what type of tubes you have but in general you um take the tube apart you can cut it with an exacto knife um or sometimes you don't even have to have a a hard tube you can just roll um um brown paper and use that as your tube so you open up the tube and you basically just take out the mason bee cocoons that are in good shape and then you wash them very quickly and uh dry them and then you put them in your fridge for the rest of the winter and um in the spring you can put them back outside in the um mason bee house and they will start hatching in um the middle of april or sooner if it's um between 10 and 14 degrees they will start hatching so it depends on the temperature but usually around the middle of april or beginning to middle of april do they sound like there'd be that's pretty easy to host in a garden unlike the honeybees they are that's very very easy to host honeybees really complicated yeah yeah i'm sorry to hear yours didn't make it i know of course my dad had bees for 40 years you'd think i would have learned something but no you will you'll get there um so um question about that front boulevard area um it was do you water it we do yeah you know because the property is so old that we don't have a watering system but we just have sprinklers on it yeah we've got a complicated hose system that we set up uh just in sort of july and august and we just water it with uh with good old fashioned sprinklers okay yeah especially that first year when you've got all that those new plants so i was going to ask you that the rock wall that's there was that there when you bought the house the rock wall that's right beside the the sidewalk was there um but the rocks that were on that sort of second layer um we we brought in ourselves okay okay yeah layers yeah very nice very nice um question about your um fruit trees how do you protect the fig fruits on the tree before they ripen oh yeah that's an excellent question well our fig tree the one we have is still quite young and uh so we only had a couple of figs these this year and yeah they were both stolen by the squirrels um so i'm thinking about investing in a net this year for both my peach and my fig tree we've got a lot of squirrels because we live right next to hay park uh right yeah yeah but the bear didn't see the figs or the figs were gone the figs were already long gone uh by that time yeah okay okay so um we've had a couple of people tell us now that this snowberry that you were is the simphory simphory carpus alba okay snowberry waxberry or ghost berry no berry yeah okay all genus of about 15 species of deciduous shrubs in the honeysuckle family oh really oh yeah capri foliaceae interesting okay very good wow it's all getting quite um a lot of botany that's great wonderful former science teacher right right yeah i just go i usually just go by the common names though i'm not a good uh i'm not a good scientist on my gardening yet that's when that's my retirement yeah well that's okay that's that seems to be a whole other study is knowing the proper names well thanks so much that was wonderful to see that the the beautiful plants and it's really thriving it looks very healthy looking great um we are now going to cross the river to north Vancouver to Jackie and Jim's garden and um here's Jackie and Jim hi so um when they purchased their north Vancouver property 28 years ago it consisted of grass, gravel, fences, and a few heritage trees and shrubs since then they've transformed it into an award-winning garden noted for its design and unique features so i think they called their talk evolution of a garden so we're going to hear a little bit about how that 28 years has gone and how they planned it also thanks for coming great to see you both okay i will bow out and let you guys take over um so as has been mentioned we've lived in this small pie shaped um suburban lot here in in north Vancouver for the last 28 years and we've been trying to to you know develop this garden over all that time and uh we've been invited to share with you how things have changed over that 28 years now just to start out i'd like to say that we didn't start gardening 28 years ago we've been married for for 49 years and we've been gardening at almost every place we've been whether it was a rental or an ownership position but we had a pretty firm idea of what we wanted so to get us started let me show you first the first slide here so this is the current what we call the front or the public face of our garden in march of this year and this is the entrance down into the back garden or private part of our garden again in this year but things didn't start out anything like this at all and to give you a sense of that uh this was the back garden uh in 1993 when we actually purchased the house and what you can see is it's mostly turf and some fence the few a few shrubs and and and it's sort of broken down rockery really not very much else uh over this 28 years this this back garden from the same view has gone from this position to this position now a lot of this is hard escaping but a great deal of it is uh is plant selection and all of the things that we've already talked about this evening like bees and bee pollinators or i'm sorry pollinators uh having native plants uh having a mixture these are things that we've followed in fact we actually keep honey bees on the properties as well as lots of native bees we have many native plants now um so what we're looking for when we were looking to buy a property 28 years ago was great backyard exposure uh as you can tell from that shot in 1993 in facing west and south there are no trees to block the sun so this was key the other topics we will be dealing with today are planning to do the renovations we did the hard escaping we did and then a virtual tour so what the first thing is exposure and what most people mean by exposure is the sun but also wind and altitude are important and really we're talking about daily patterns of sun shade the way that shadows are cast by the house by nearby trees and buildings the elevation we're at 550 feet that really shapes off effectively one week off each end of the growing season compared to um uh down at sea level and also wind exposure is important now everybody shows this kind of slide but it's really important we live very far north at about 50 degrees and the point is is that in the sun the path of the sun across the sky uh is very different than in the winter in the summer it's very high in the sky at noon and the day length is about 16 hours in the winter you have much more slanted sun and the day length is only about eight hours now this has a big effect so take a house with its public garden facing the road frontage and you have a private garden in the back now if it's facing south that summer solstice at noon well there's not going to be any shadow to worry about but in winter solstice at noon these being the slanting rays of the sun you can even a small house can actually put quite a bit of area in shade this is greatly exacerbated if you have a tall multi-story house even if you're facing the other way you're facing north so that your back garden's getting the sun if you have a lot of trees well again at summer solstice that's not a bad thing you actually probably want this bit of shade in your private garden because it's probably too hot but the problem is that winter solstice those trees are going to cast a huge shadow and it's going to limit to some extent which you can grow not to say shade gardens are wonderful but you can't necessarily grow a vegetable garden there well what we found what we set out looking it took a long time this is a contemporary gurgle google earth image our house is the green roof the neighbor's house is in the gray roof to simplify this though i'll show you what it looked like this is the area of road frontage the house faces 50 degree 53 degrees east of north the house and deck and garage and driveway all here this was a very steep slope and the red line represents a long fence that went basically around the perimeter of the actual lot the end the part we ended up actually gardening is much larger than the lot as you'll see this is what we started with though basically all the areas in pale green were lawn they were turf and it had been recently put in the dark green areas were plantings with trees and shrubs and flower beds and that sort of thing and there were a couple of gravel paths and a driveway a beautiful deck this area down in the lower right was actually completely full of just random trash and the invasive plants and we'll talk more about that later if you take a section of our house you can see that at summer solstice all the all the big trees the big majestic trees we love on the north shore they're all to the north of us so no problem even in winter they don't cast any reasonable shadow on the area that we plan to do most of our gardening which is all along here so this is what we started with I should emphasize that while we're focused on the sun in the back we have from deep shade that gets half an hour of random sun to 14 hours of full sun so we've got the full gamut of planting opportunities but when we started here in the front of the house you can see there was a gravel pathway in a tiny little bed and in the right hand corner there was a supporting wall up to the street and another round a little tiny narrow bed a gravel driveway and a sloping steeply sloping bed down to the lower garden this is another on the left hand side another picture of that supporting wall and narrow little bed and there was a nice little round bed under a very nice huge cypress tree in the back garden there's a south side fence which I should mention now we very quickly planted on the other side eight espaliered apple trees and two espaliered pear trees so they get absolutely full sun all day and the right hand picture is the um west side fence next to the neighbors so we soon quickly made friends with our next door neighbors and Judy and I decided we would attend the landscape gardening course taught at night school at Carson Graham high school by the very famous every now landscape gardener our landscape architect else with Bradbury and we naively thought we'd be talking about plants but that was only the last couple of classes instead we spent a great deal of time on learning what we should be thinking about and um observing in order to um make a nice landscape garden the first assignment was to pick a part of the garden we were going to work on do a scale drawing and do a pan around the picture so this picture you've already seen we didn't have a pan around the camera so we I patched together the pan around the backyard where I was going to be working on so here's some of the things that we talked about in that course just very briefly for those of you who may be considering redesigning some part of your garden Jim's already talked about exposure but I'm going to talk about a few of the other things you should be looking at in detail and the first is your soil conditions as Laura the first speaker talked about soil is vital and when you've got a house like ours which is 100 years old this year when we even when we got it the soil was very poor and depleted and probably compacted so we were going to do a series of walls and whatnot and we had to bring in a lot of good quality amended soil the other thing to consider is your source of water because even just planting new plants even though they may not need water eventually or not much that it's crucial they have quite a bit when they go in when I did the master gardener course one of the things I learned was that if you stand there with a hose and just sprinkle the water doesn't go very deep and doesn't get to the roots so you have to figure out how you're going to supply water to your plants so you may want to consider planting and the irrigation system there's a bunch of things to consider here on this list that you might want to build into your plans and one of them is what's good that you want to keep in your existing garden we had a number of heritage trees and perennials that we certainly wanted to save and then things like access if you're going to do beds or walks what materials and various other kinds of things you may wish to have including what we need for privacy then there's the uses of your garden are you going to have a place for children to play or do you have pets absolutely vital how much time do you want to spend gardening as you've seen from the previous two presentations there's never a no maintenance garden so but as that I think the florist mentioned there's many alternatives to making gardening less work and certainly you don't double dick so those things can once you learn about it you can incorporate some of those less time-consuming jobs and lastly of course you have to study your consider what your budget is so after we took this course we made a number of decisions first of all this was going to be a multi-year project in fact it turned out that the hardscape been was over 18 years and you can see the other decisions we made gray brick river rock and field stone all paths and walks to be curved so we've got a consistent hardscape feature throughout of course we are getting the irrigation system and then the joy of finding plants for the huge variety of locations we have the first thing we started with is putting in greenhouse and so this is two pictures of the early greenhouse the picture on the right shows the horrible state of the rock reed bed right below it so this is a picture of the first phase of re-landscaping the lower garden bed you'll see the pavers you'll see the curves and at this point the rock reed bed had been rebuilt here's another picture but the most important thing about this is our very lovely and wonderful stone mason's toning and hand gelo vignoli who were with us for almost all of our construction we have a number of heritage perennials we wanted to preserve and this japanese maple was one of them this is the the initial re-landscaping of the front beds and notice the walks and the curved beds and then a few years later this is how this was maturing in the front garden and then in the back garden we eventually added some more um beds and and I should mention at this point that the what looks like lawn here is alternate ground covered from west coast seeds which um Laura mentioned you know it's one of a pollinator fairly pollinator garden are lawn substitutes well just as we began to get things to working reasonably well we decided that we needed to renovate the house so we changed the external appearance of the house as you can see this is a almost intermediate before after sort of seven but the house footprint was actually unchanged so the first thing we had to do was dig up all the plantings that we've done in the front garden and relocate them so that we could plant them back after the demolition now it wasn't a total demolition but it did sort of got the center of the house and they had to dig this enormous trench at the front of the house to put in a new water line so it was kind of a demolition but again we didn't change the footprint and the 100 year old house's bones are still there by spring of 2000 though we had that finished and we put the garden back in as best we could although you know it it suffered a bit from its relocation uh there were areas of the garden this we call the side garden and I just like to point out this was an area this was an early attempt that we did of landscaping and I didn't think it worked out well it's part of the old fence the thing I'd like to say is everything to the right of this fence was just derelict a completely derelict abandoned property basically this is entirely different today but anyway an early attempt we added a water feature this is actually a shaped concrete by a company that's out of business alcohol liquid stone it's made to look like slate there's not a pool here because we didn't want to draw in raccoons and and great blue herons to be eating koi and things like that it's just it just doesn't seem like a good idea friends that have ponds usually regret it this is another view of part of that water feature area and as as this garden is starting to mature um the last major project of 2009 to 11 was on the east side of the house and quite a bit of this is really on city land now again let me just orient you this is looking straight down this is our house or a little corner of the house the driveway the dead end street the road frontage and outline in blue is the area we're talking about now these star shaped symbols were black locus trees a very bad invasive species these were horse chestnut trees again an invasive species this was an abandoned basketball hoop and even the most important thing is inside the red zone here was completely overgrown in a very mature stand of Japanese knot weed and bamboo to give you an idea of just how severe this infestation was we had to bring in a full size excavator he worked for two days to dig out the bamboo and the knot weed when we ended up this was just after we finished that's that same area now outlined in black we put in a new thing this actually has four sets of stairs in it because it's quite a steep slope this is a public walkway and people use it by the dozens every day these are walls to support the terraces and these are the terraces closer to the house so at this point we've kind of finished the hard scaping so i want to bring you back this is what we started with the house remember the dark green or the garden plantings and the light green are the lawn or turf and this area was just full of trash and invasive species and the red was the original fence well this is where we are today the red is still the original fence it's only fallen down because it hasn't fallen down because the espalier trees hold it up otherwise it would have rotted way long ago but it looks good actually all of these gray are paths you can see they're curving and you can now see that the areas that are turf and remember they're not turf they're actually this easy care lawn i mow four to five times a year and the rest of it is all in gardens of various kinds but we have lots of vegetables as well as all the other things so now we're going to take you on a virtual tour now that this is just going to be a lot of photographs i'm not going to talk during the photographs or maybe not at all might add a word or two here and there i'll only leave them up for about three or four seconds so they'll be quick and you know it's just to give you a taste of what's happened these are all seasons all times i'd also like to say that i picked these pictures to be flattering of the garden it doesn't always look perfect i've got to admit so this is front of house this is winter okay fine um finally we're just ending with a couple of three fun shots the first is since halloween's coming up there's our witches that will join in our front porch and then a couple of sunset shots this is that sort of wide angle view from the top top deck in our house and this is what it looks like when you have a big telephoto lens so thank you very much thank you indeed thank you wow wow that was so beautiful such a tonic just to look at those beautiful pictures oh lovely well are you going to do it again or i got another property in my hand because it's or i mean it looks to me like it's done like you've done everything a garden is never done we spend a lot of time settling border disputes when plants decide they're going to have to beat somebody else and i were i think i replanted three or four different vets this year it's never never done yeah i also i would also add that um when we started out we didn't do a lot of vegetable gardening here although we've done it in the past and over the last this is seven years we've just gotten deeper and deeper into vegetables and now that it's become one of the things i spend my most time doing and we use the greenhouse to start a huge number of vegetables and um and we we also grow many vegetables in what are called earth boxes on our big deck which is just an ideal place to grow tomatoes and cucumbers and things like that i mean just the output is just phenomenal that's great well you have a lot of sun right you have property well we've we've got as i said from deep shade to you know where there might be some filtered light all the way through to 14 hours a side so we grow a lot of herbs we've got a lot of lavenders and all sorts of herbs and berry bushes and stuff so you know we just indulge ourselves yeah whatever and um yeah i know it's the other thing is compost um i've got two conventional i've built in myself type compost but we take about two and a half cubic meters of compost out of the compost plows every year and that goes in and and we recycle several metric tons of material from the garden uh through that i know because i some of them i have to take to the to the uh green waste and they weigh it for me and and i know what i'm doing right and so we're talking huge amounts because this is not an easy garden to look after and let me tell you it's uh it's a bit of work yeah i know well i was i was wondering about that because judith mentioned in this sort of advice is to think about the maintenance think about how much how much time can you actually devote your garden and it looks like you both are putting in a lot of time for that garden well let me just say that for almost all of this time we were both working full time and raising a family as well because they when we moved into this house our kids were still pretty small and we didn't give them any consideration about the design of the garden that was their hard luck and now they're both gardeners oh wow wow well um i i do have a question in them the q and a for you guys um actually most of the comments have just been commending you and your beautiful garden fabulous i think people are a bit um sort of awestruck and not sure what to say but one person amber is asking she says i have quite a shady backyard yard what would you suggest me to plant so um where do you start well if you look at just our entire front garden is pretty much shade and if you looked at those pictures of shade i mean you can have so many successful and lovely things in a shade garden and um in our deep shade we've got some heritage of maples and rhododendrons and they're ever under planted with a sea of oxalis just simple oxalis and it's absolutely stunning so um you know in front of our house that is shade that's north and it's shaded completely gets a little bit about an hour east sun on a slant in the morning right and you know there's so much you can do but you can't do veggies and you can't do it right right right maybe we'll ask nora and laura to come on the video now and and they can suggest um some nice shade plants i know that in laura in your garden you had some beautiful mosses and yeah i mean that's something that does well in shade obviously and ferns and i think depends on the orientation if you can go up in the shade that beautiful native honeysuckle is so beautiful and you'll get you'll get hummingbirds and bees going in and uh it just grows so fast it's it's lovely and ferns you know i i love ferns i think i might have been a fern in a former life what's your favorite shade plant nora well i'm a i'm a huge fan of hostas my hostas grow a lot in the shade and they just take up so much space and stop the weeds so um and i love moss too whenever i can you know encourage it to grow i love the moss yeah yeah no hostas they're great they're just um they're seasonal right because they're gone gone to the winter yeah and of course it depends if it's dry shade or it's moist or it's wet right that makes a difference well gosh um there aren't any more questions um unless you wanted to ask one another something this one question for each other i think there may be some confusion about winterberry oh okay we're back to that yeah okay i believe did you see the chat could you see it um i i didn't look but the the point is is i think the the local plant that's called winterberry there are many plants called winterberry uh is actually toxic and you don't want to eat it oh i wonder if you can look that up personally because uh you know it it actually um you know a spearmint it does taste like spearmint that's not a good thing um you know mints are actually there to repel insects and they're they're often toxic alkaloids so you know you you i think you know your audience should should know that they want to be very careful about that sort of thing um if i'm missing so are you talking about that wintergreen the wintergreen yeah wintergreen so are you saying it's toxic well some winterberry some plants that go by a similar name oh okay well wintergreen is the one the one that i've got let me let me recheck for you and i don't want to make you know it norah that that looked like uh knick knicks to me no it wasn't no i've got knick knick it's definitely wintergreen well that's the tags all sad when i bought it wow well the thing about common names is they can be uh applied to a number of different plants no okay it it it should be okay don't eat it she's still here so sorry don't don't confuse it with winterberry yeah okay okay all right um did it did you have any other questions for each other anything no boy okay well thank you all so much i know that putting those presentations was a lot of work and they were just all so excellent uh the photos and all of your stories of course not as much work as the gardens themselves but um so tremendous i hope that it was a benefit to you as as much as all of us because i really enjoyed it and i know that all of our people who came tonight did as well um so um thank you again and um for sharing those really special places and um it's lovely and next week we have um someone coming to talk about seed saving um carolin harriett from uh vancouver island she used to run um seeds of victoria um for 25 years but now she lives in ladiesman still saving seeds but um not running that business anymore so that'll be next thursday the fifth date and if anyone wants to um come to it just register on the website or you can send me an email and i'll make sure you get a zoom link and that's it so thank you again and everyone have a wonderful thanksgiving um maybe there'll be some pumpkin pie if someone has sugar pumpkin from their garden good okay thanks a lot everybody have a nice evening and thank you everyone bye bye bye