 You're welcome back. We're looking right now at what has happened in Niger. Remember that there was a military takeover a few months ago, and right now Niger is removing, purging the nation of all foreign bodies, as it were. The French troops are asked to withdraw. They have begun withdrawing from Niger. Right now Niger has also asked the UN representative there in the country, the UN official, out within 72 hours, which is less now because that was from yesterday also. 72 hours. He has been asked to do everything that is possible to leave the country. So we are discussing this with Dr. Loreme for a public intellectual and policy analyst on the program this morning. Dr, good morning, and welcome to the program. Thank you, my brother. Thank you for hosting me. Okay, Niger, and not only Niger, other African countries that are thinking about a new independence, I might call it. They are calling for independence from the Western nations that seem to dictate to us the kind of things that we need to do and how we should run our country. Right now the UN representative in Niger has been asked to leave in the next less than 72 hours. Would like to get your comment on what is really happening in Niger and on the African continent. Are you on the side that says it's a renaissance of some sort or we're plunging back into the dark ages? That's a tricky question. And first I must say I'm not an apostle of military coups and the unconstitutional change of government. But again, I'm also not oblivious of the fact that in some circumstances where changes, peaceful changes, democratic changes are impossible. You know, coups may be justified in some cases. And in other words, those who make peaceful and democratic changes impossible should share in the blame for the return of the military on the African continent. We have about eight now and counting. And some countries in Africa are trying to respond in a Niger manner. You know, one vacuuming room and others trying to retire their military top address as a way of warding off the possibilities of coups in those countries. I may not be addressing the issue because the rising, the Africa rising via a coup. But I believe it's because of failure of a democracy itself. Yes, African continent, because they were African countries were majorly colonized by Britain and France. They borrowed democracy from them. But democracy in Africa has been questionable. The way a man has been practiced. In other words, it's not really the failure of democracy in Africa. It's the failure of how African leaders have carried on with democracy. You will see elections in a shoddy manner. The results are written. You will see the incumbents who changed the constitution to allow them to remain almost, you know, life of presidents. I happened there recently in Kodevoa under Quaterra. And you remember, Quaterra had to fight to come in by removing a bamboo. But the same Quaterra is the same person who has changed his country's constitution. They enable him to run for another term, possibly for life. In the case in Kemerun, even Paul Kegane or Rwanda that may be performing, it's also not a given way to democracy in his country. However, a performing president he may have been. Let me mention one thing here. One fundamental job for any leader is to groom and crew successors. So any leader that fails to groom successors that will continue from Gahi or she has actually failed as a leader. And that is what has happened in this number of countries I have mentioned. So if you bring the same thing, the same background of perspective to Pia on the Nigerian experience, you will see that General Abdurrahman Tiani and his boys are removed from a president. He cited some of these things, Gabon, all of them. These are problems in Africa. Now, coming to the Nigerian example, you asked a very fundamental question. Are we falling into the darker ages, or is this the way moving forward? Well, I don't agree with either. I don't think we are falling back into the dark ages. Neither do I believe that this is the way to really go. I believe that we should work on democracy. And what that means is that we shouldn't really encourage the return of the military. We should fight to enthrone democracy. The people must fight to enthrone democracy rather than encourage the military to return. Because military is dictatorship. That's the truth. And it means on freedom. It means the total absence of freedom. And no woman or a group of thing as a qualified equivalent, the right, democratic rights of people. It is not quite good to change the pattern. Now, having said this, it makes the grieve for me from this perspective. What the former nation's now their foreign minister, Bakari Sankari, he was the UN Secretary-General to represent Niger. And the reason is because they ousted the Zulums government also sent in a letter for representation. You know, so the United Nations was sort of caught in between both requests. The military junta sent in a rep, the Zulums government also ousted the Zulums government also sent in a request to be represented. So I don't think that Guterre, the UN Secretary-General, really aimed by not allowing any of them to be represented the issue of legitimacy, of the government of Etiani is fully established. That said, I also think that the measure to expel all, everything West, everything United Nations from Niger is a very good one. Yes, it helps to convey the impression that the Etiani government has come to state that the Etiani government is indeed in charge of Niger as a sovereign country. And therefore nobody should meddle with their internal affairs. That is what the General Etiani is trying to convey in this response. But you know, to take on United Nations is quite a big one. I don't think I should have gone that far. Yes, asking a French ambassador to leave the country, declaring him a president on grand time. Well, that he has gotten away with because Emmanuel Macron, the President of France, has withdrawn the ambassador and also withdrawn the over 1,000 French troops that we have in Niger. But, you know, the Africa as a whole is not on the table. When it comes to United Nations, why do I say so? United Nations is owned and run by the Security Council. A Security Council is run and owned by five countries holding the veto. No African country holds a veto. In other words, if UN really decides to deal with Niger for being belligerent, there will be nobody to stand up for the Etiani government. So it's all good for him. I think that was a bit overreaching. You know, because I have already told you that what the U.N. Secretary-General did was justifiable because the issue of sovereignty of Niger is not what is the problem here. The issue is legitimacy of the government of General Abdurrahman Tiani. That is what is being questioned here. And he needs time to win more confidence. The other day, I read a couple of days ago that the United States sort of tacitly has come to accept the government of General Abdurrahman Tiani by asking him to rule out a transition program. You don't tell somebody you haven't accepted to rule out a transition. That means transiting from you to the order. In other words, the U.S. has admitted. So they need to build more confidence. It's not by taking on United Nations. Nobody will be there for you. Nobody. There's no country in Africa that is on the table with nobody veto. The five countries that hold the veto are the owners of United Nations. And if they turn against General Tiani, it's going to be very bad for his government and for the Nigerian people. But you've raised a very critical question. If Africa is not on the table when we talk issues about United Nations, what are we really doing in the United Nations? Because it seems as if we are just members of a club where we have to be dictated to do this and do that. Otherwise, we are going to deal with you. And it goes on and on all the time. So what's the essence of us being part of the United Nations? Is it just to get grants? That's the problem here. Africa is not yet independent. That is one thing people don't know. Africa is not yet independent. The anglophone countries, the countries that colonized by Britain, appear to be less constrained. But if you come to Francophone, that is the countries colonized by France, it's more obvious. Because their revenue, for example, is domiciled in France, in the French central bank. And they don't have access to those funds. They go for those funds as loans and they pay interest on them. What that means is that their revenues are still being collected by them and domiciled in France for the growth of France as a country. So that's a tragedy. If you come to Nigeria, we are not allowed to produce anything. We are not allowed to produce. We can't even refine our food. You can see everything about IMF, World Bank policies. All this is tailored towards keeping Africa dependent. And that is one thing these new coups are questioning. The listener bonus, the rational, why should Africa be sovereign countries? And yet they cannot decide their own future. They can decide their lives and everything. That's it. So to that extent, they are justified and a lot of people are keen into it. You see, look at the Nigerian experience. If you look at the three major policies undertaken by the Tenubu administration, they were not done to please or help Nigerians. They were done to win the confidence of the West. One is removal of all use subsidy. You know that removal of all use subsidy is essentially a policy that has been advanced by World Bank and IMF for decades. And of course, we are also forced to float on Iran at the same time. And the two-headed economic policies are totally anti-people. But the typical administration believes that it will gain them international assistance. So when Nigerians die at home and the government is accepted internationally, that makes a better sense to them. That is where we are. So if you see that kind of policy, that you are not even allowed to produce what you consume, you know, you can refine your fuel and you have to refine with them. You have to, even your cocoa, you can convert into chocolate. You have to send the cocoa raw to them and receive chocolate back from them at a cost they fix. You know, that's where we are. We made a rentier economy by these new colonial policies. And that is what is at stake here now. When you say rentier economy, you are talking to somebody like a landlord who has built it, he returns to go and receive rent. That is how Nigerian economy is. Our educational system, for example, is to pump billions into funding a British educational system because ours can work at home. I think that to answer your question, we are making up the numbers. And what you call giving a flag, you whip the flag, but you are not in charge. It is just like a married man who cannot decide the number of children he wants to have, the kind of food he needs to cook, to even run his own home. He's not determined by the parents. We see it around us. So if you use that example to look at the global politics and where Africa has found itself, you will discover that Africa needs to be independent. And being independent is not just at political independence. We have to be economically independent. We must move the continent from consumption to production. That means we must be allowed or we first our way into converting our raw materials to finish the products. But they don't want it. They want Africa to remain supplier of raw materials to Western industries. That is what this whole thing is all about. And they have been able to encourage the kind of leadership all over Africa that will make sure that this policy remains. In other words, they have allowed the kind of leaders in Africa that they would not allow in their own countries. They allow criminals to be presidents in Africa because they will do what they want them to do, but they will not allow the same kind of people to be there, to be their president in their own countries. So why are they encouraging it in Africa? They are encouraging it in Africa in exchange for keeping Africa as a renter economy, as a consumer to understand the same good point. Okay, let's just take a final thing because our time is actually up. We have like a minute more. We need this independence so far you have said that. But how do we get the independence? Do we get it through diplomacy? Or do we get it like they say the kingdom, you take it by force? Are we going to do that? Are we going to do a very radical turnaround and say we are independent? Or can we, Georgia, to have this independence, which we have been claiming all this while, that we have? Just a final, very briefly now we are wrapping up. Briefly, something that we gain new economic in, have to subtly go about it. You can't also get it by force. You can't. But you just have to keep a grooming leader who understands that Africa has to work for Africans. When you get proper leaders into places, they will know how to navigate their way around it. It's a minefield. You have to carefully tread around it. All right. Thank you very much, Dr. Law Mefo, for coming on the program. Because it's always mine. Thank you so much. We've been talking with Dr. Law Mefo on the program. We're looking at the ejection of the UN representative in Niger for so many reasons that we're outlined by that country. And we're looking at the actual independence of Africa. Are we free or are we not free? And how are we going to go about it? Getting the much needed freedom that we need in Africa so that we can blow some. Law Mefo was a very critical part of this discussion. And we thank him so much. At this point, we draw the curtain on the program this morning. It's been a pleasure being here with you. And on behalf of the entire Breakfast on PLOS TV family, we say thank you for being there. My name is Nyam Gul Agadji. Let's do it again tomorrow.