 The purple, yes, is a very bright, vibrant color just like our conversation will be today as we continue our conversation on Fundraising Academy and this is a cause-selling approach. We also like to extend our sincerest gratitude to our presenting sponsors. You can see their logos right in front of you on the screen, including today's guest Fundraising Academy. But many of these sponsors have been with us truly since the beginning, which has been over a year now. So thanks to Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, who had this crazy idea and said, let's do this for two weeks. I was just as crazy and said, two weeks sounds good. And then here we are, as I said earlier, a year later. So I'm always grateful to be alongside you for this journey. I'm Jared Ransome, president and CEO of the Raven Group, also known as the non-profit nerd. And Tony, I think you are a wonderful nerd colleague as well. I say that, of course, with a sincerest compliment from me to you. But Tony Bell joins us today. He is Senior Director Office of Program Administration with the National University. Welcome back, Tony. Thank you so much. And I wear that proudly. So that nerdiness, I wear it proudly. So happy to be in that camp with you. Yes, that's what it's intended for. So I'm excited. Today is another conversation as we move forward in the cost-selling education that Fundraising Academy is providing. So Julia has created this, well, not created, it's come to us really from the academy. But we've gone through the cost-selling and this is our phase two conversation. So we're going to go through step three and four, which is approach and need discovery. Yes, absolutely. It's amazing. And just to let everyone know, I mean, we archive all of these courses together. You can jump in, you can jump out. It's not one of those things. I always say it's like, you know, sometimes you'll come upon a serial on TV and you'll be like, I didn't see the beginning. So now I can never catch up. This is not that case. This is a really logical, natural process. So you can jump in, jump out, circle back, get reminded, whatever. But Tony, today, as Jared said, we're going to be talking about moving into that phase two part of cost-selling, the approach and need discovery. And so let's define approach. What does this even mean? Sure. So approach is about getting yourself ready for that positive first impression. So it is, again, just getting yourself prepped and ready before you even meet with the donor and being mindful of your nonverbal gestures and all of the things around that. So that's really what the approach is about. It's about getting yourself ready for that and ready to make that great first impression. So you talked about that, but what is the right first impression? What does that mean? What does that mean? Well, it means considering a couple of different things. So considering some of the visual factors, so things like you're grooming, making sure that whether it's in-person, face-to-face or in-person via Zoom, making sure that there aren't distractions. Even though they really make the best, sometimes distractions make the best memories. As a cat tail kind of goes across the screen, my biggest fear, the dog is just going to start barking nonstop, which is not really a visual factor. But anyway, so thinking about the visual factors, again, your body language. What are you wearing? Being well groomed. Now, that doesn't mean being anything other than you because I want to make sure that I say that. As we think about diversity and inclusion, it means showing up as your best self when we talk about the visual factors. So body language, attire, being mindful that if you're wearing something that has a logo on it, I might wear, I'm in South Florida, right? So I might have something that has the Miami Dolphins on it. Well, that could be a deal breaker for someone that's not a Miami Dolphins fan. So again, mindful of your attire. If you're going to wear something that has a logo, which I would discourage you from doing. But sometimes we, I think especially in this digital environment, we fall victim to some of the casualness that might occur. So just being mindful of all of that. So around the visual factors, then there's the professional habits to consider right around making a good first impression. So be prompt, which means be early. Thank you. Thank you. Jared Ronson taught me that the first day. She's like, sister, if you're not on 15 minutes early, you're late. I never forget that. Yeah, if you're not early, you're late. Yeah, no, absolutely. I agree with you 100%. I'd rather get there and sit and wait for a while, right? Than to have the, because there's already, I mean, we're passionate about the work that we do, right? We care deeply about the causes that we support. So there's already some level of anxiety, right? And I want you to have anxiety. The moment you no longer have anxiety, I think is when you need to question about if you're still doing what you're meant to be doing, right? And kind of questioning your continued kind of motivation to be in the space. So there's already some anxiety that exists. And I think when you're writing like right on time, you're not giving your, you know, that just creates anxiety. So get there early, give yourself a chance to take a deep breath. And again, even if it means I signed on, 10 minutes early today, you did, you know, for our, for our, yeah, for our convening, because it just, it made me feel comfortable just to sign in, sit down, take a deep breath, get my thoughts together. So yeah, so all around those professional habits. You never know what's going to happen, right? It could be digitally or, you know, in person, if you don't get a parking spot that you're looking for or something happens between the parking lot to where you're meeting them. So really just making sure that you have plenty of time for those uh-oh or those what ifs that you didn't plan for. Absolutely. And here in South Florida, between the bridges and the train tracks, like a commute that would normally take you 10 minutes could take you 30 if you catch both of them, right? So, so that's a really valid point is, I guess, you know, be prepared for the unknown. That's right. That's right. So yeah, so we, so again, it's, you know, it's about visual factors. It's about professional habits around building rapport. So Julia, you know, you're going to laugh at me, you know, pronouncing names correctly, you know, as part of the building rapport, using their name, you know, throughout the conversation. Again, all of that helps build relationships. If you pay, you know, if you pay someone a compliment, mean it, right? Like I was saying, as we started, Jared looks amazing today with her hair pulled. I'm like, just amazing. You know, and I meant that. There was no reason for me to make up a compliment, right? We've got a great relationship. So, so just, you know, you know, being meaningful about that and looking for common ground. And I'll probably, you know, lean into this a little more too as we move through today's conversation. But whether you're meeting with them in their office, like real face to face or even on Zoom, if they're not using a virtual background, there's a lot you can learn about your potential donor by looking around at what's behind them. And maybe there's an award or maybe there's a picture of a celebrity or maybe there's a book that you've read, right? That you have in common. Maybe there's a picture of, you know, the donor's children or family behind them. I mean, there's so many things that you can learn about the donor in this kind of environment where you can like lean in and start a conversation around that. Absolutely. I love that point. And that has been really big, of course, you know, during the last 12, 13 months, Tony, because it is so nice to see like, oh, is that, you know, what's, what's the weather like? That's the simplest thing, you know, if you're meeting in different geographic locations, but also just kind of noticing something, you know, and being astute and just in tune to the surroundings, not just yours, but theirs. And how might you use that to relate with one another? Absolutely. And then kind of the, you know, there's really four kind of pillars I was talking about around the right first impression, right? Your visual factors, your professional habits, building rapport, and then physical actions. And what that means is, you know, chewing gum, you know, you might not want to chew gum. Just don't chew gum. Just don't do it. Just don't do it. So, you know, and then things like, you know, offensive language, like, you know, we may say what, you know, what the H and that's easy for us. And that rolls off our tongue or I don't give a D about, you know, whatever. And so, you know, just again, being mindful of some of those. And really regardless of how well you may think you know the donor, if you've had a few interactions before kind of this, you know, getting prepped for this more formal one, really keep it very professional because you're entering a relationship, right, with the potential donor, but they're an investor in your cause. And you would want to treat them, you know, like an investor for any Fortune 500 company and give them that professional courtesy. I like that. The way I hear it, Tony, is to not become too comfortable, right? Don't become too comfortable to wear. As you said, you are no longer treating them like an investor. Yeah, I think it's really important. I think it's a great way to frame up your whole day or your meeting. I mean, you're, you know, it's a great way to put everything into perspective as you, you know, begin this journey. And again, I'm like you said, an investor in a cause, that's just the most basic thing. One of the other things you talk about is nailing the greeting. And I think you have some really interesting things. I really want to know what that rule of 10 is. I want to know you have be confident. Okay, we get that. Because people love winners and people want to, you know, invest in something they feel like is a good thing. But they do also say be different. And so I'm so curious to see how this works out. So start with the rule of 10. Yeah, so the rule of 10 basically means that when, you know, your first 10 words to the donor should include some form of thanks, right? So when you start the meeting, you know, your first 10 words, something in there should show gratitude. And I would expand upon that and also say should exude some empathy. So thank you so much for investing time in our conversation today. Hope you're doing well and that your family's doing well. And I'm just so excited that we're going to have a chance to have this conversation. Right. So so again, just leading into the gratitude, leaning into to the empathy, because folks are going, folks go through stuff all the time. Right. So just recognizing that there, you know, there may be something going on that might prohibit them from being here right now in this conversation. So you acknowledge that. And then you get their full attention. Love it. I love it. Yeah. So that's what you know, that's what the rule of 10 is. So being confident. Julia, I think you said that beautifully, right? Just, just, you know, know your mission, know the value of your cause. Know, know why it is that you're, you know, you're engaging with this potential donor, why they're, you know, potentially a good fit for your organization. So just be, be confident. Don't let any of the little voices in your head get in the way of having a meaningful conversation with the potential donor. So I mean, that's, that's pretty general. There are all kinds of things within the curriculum where we take a little bit of a deeper dive and, and to, you know, being confident. But, but again, just basically just own the fact that you know, your organization, you're knowledgeable about the great work that your organization is doing. And, and don't let, again, don't let the little voices get in the way. I love that. I love that you said that because, you know, this is such a risk for certain people. You know, there are a lot of people, and Jared and I have talked about this, you know, a lot of times that relationship that you have with money and what you think about is, you know, talking to somebody who might have pulled up in a car that literally costs more than your home. Right. You know, or talking about this, this immense financial gift that is so hard to conceive of with, with your life, you know, it takes confidence. And don't be intimidated by titles. You know, I think that that's the other thing too. I think, you know, Julie, the example of the car is a beautiful example of a way that you might immediately feel intimidated, you know, by, by the, you know, the potential donor. But, you know, and I share some of this because I struggled with this early on in my career, you know, early when I first started doing fundraising. And oh, well, this person, you know, a C-suite individual, I'm not a C-suite right at that point. I was a fundraising associate. So, you know, I was pretty, pretty low on the ladder when I, you know, first starting my fundraising career, but don't let the title get in the way. And again, don't let it create little voices in your head. This is about relationship-driven fundraising. This is building a relationship with an individual that gets up every morning like you do. You know what I mean? You have so many more things in common with this potential donor than, than not. And just realizing that. So, so don't let job titles intimidate you as you prepare for, for your first, your first meeting. And I think to the confidence, I always like to have the reminder and it's a reminder to myself is that if someone asks you something and you truly don't know the answer, it's okay to say let me get back to you on that. You know, that to me also expresses confidence of saying, you know, I know my limits and I know what I know, but I'm not fully, you know, comfortable sharing an answer on that. I feel like I need to, you know, to do a little bit more research or conversations within my team. So, I will definitely get back to you on that and then get back to them on that. Well, and it also underscores one of the main pillars of, of, you know, running a successful nonprofit and that's transparency. Right. And, and so by saying, you know, I'm not really, I don't really have an answer for that, but let me find out and get back to you. So that demonstrates transparency and you're building trust. Right. Because you're, you're letting the potential donor know, you know, right away that you're not going to, you're not going to make stuff up that they can, they can really, again, trust the information that you're sharing with them. 100%. But then do make sure you get back. Oh, right. Absolutely. Yes, they can fulfill your promises for sure. Right. I promise. Absolutely. Because I will do the opposite of what, what you intend to do. Talk about being different. How does that, like, how do you stand out? Because as we talk about competition in the sector, you know, we always say, well, I don't know the number now, but we reference 1.8 million nonprofits, you know, registered nonprofits in the U.S. And those are just the nonprofits, right? Registered nonprofits. But then when we talk about the employment, I think I just saw the other day that nonprofits is like the second or third largest industry. 11 million, you know, the labor department says there are 11 million Americans that work for a nonprofit. Wow. So how are we different? How do we stand out and be different? So, you know, the first thing I would say is be you. Yeah. You are unique in, you know, just being you. So I think that that means, you know, that right there is being different. Don't feel like, again, you're meeting with a C-suite individual. It doesn't mean you have to wear a blue suit. I mean, it just doesn't. So, you know, so being, so that's, you know, that's the main thing I want to say about, you know, about being different is embracing who you are and showing up as your authentic self. You can be different by being, you know, just peppy, right? I mean, so just, you know, sometime, and again, it's a business meeting, but that doesn't mean that you can't bring a lot of joy to the interaction. If you have done, you know, research, this is a little bit of a risk, but I have done this. And in this, you know, in this more digital climate, where I've done research on an individual and, you know, I looked at their LinkedIn and I saw, you know, a hobby that they might have, or, you know, on Facebook, a hobby that they might have, or music that they love. So I had a meeting where my backdrop was ABBA. So I was sitting in the middle of the group, ABBA, and it was a great icebreaker. And the first thing she said was, oh my gosh, I love ABBA, you know, and it's because I had done those other steps of the process, right, where I have learned about my potential donor, come across this interesting fact about them and incorporated that. So again, those are, those are just some really simple, you know, that's a simple example of how to be different, you know, compared to everyone else. But I think most importantly is really to lean into who you are and to be your genuine authentic self. And that alone makes you different because we're all unique. Now, I love that because I think that's also going to build your confidence, you know, if you are engaging with somebody that is more true to yourself, that right there kind of breaks down some of those things. Am I doing this right? Am I, you know, am I behaving properly? You know, whatever. Yeah, I think, I think being, being genuine goes a long way. And I think when, especially if you're meeting with savvy donors, they can sense if you're not being genuine. So that's super important in my book. Yeah, I agree with you. Now, the last part of this on nailing the greeting, you say, read the room, and you can even read the virtual room. You talked about that, seeing the environment that somebody's in, you know, greeting them with empathy. But what does that mean when we really start looking at coming back into these IRL in real life meeting situations? Because the meeting rooms have changed. They're not going to be, I think they're still going to be social distancing to some effect. What does this, what does this look like to you? Yeah, that's a good question. I think reading the room could mean things like if the potential donor is spending a lot of, so you're talking to them, but they're doing a lot of this with, you know, or, you know, or the phones ringing off the hook. So reading the room also means now, how do I have to adjust my conversation or my approach so that I'm standing out amongst the competition that exists either through the phone or through technology. And part of my strategy a lot of times is just to say nothing and just sit there. Because ultimately they will catch on to the silence and then look at you to start, you know, a conversation or to say something else. So that's just been been some of my experiences around, you know, how to how to read the room when you're back and what do you call IRL back in real life? Yeah, I had a scenario that I'd love to share and I'll keep it brief, but I was meeting with a major donor. I was a full-time employee at the time and we met at a local coffee shop, which is one where a lot of people would meet. You know, it was like, if you wanted to see someone, you better get there early because guaranteed they're going to show up. At some point throughout the day, well, we had already sat down having a conversation, Tony. And then I noticed that the donor got really uncomfortable. And so I really had to read the room. And what I noticed was there was just too many people and the level of just, you know, willingness to be comfortable in the conversation shifted immensely. So it could have been that someone was sitting too close to us or someone she knew was sitting with an earshot kind of thing, you know, so knowing to read the room and just say, hey, I've noticed it's gotten a little noisy in here and a little extra crowded. Would you be comfortable if we stepped outside and continue the conversation at an outside, you know, table? She was immensely grateful for me noticing her level of, you know, comfortability. And she just said, I didn't know what to say, but I knew that I couldn't continue the conversation. And that small gesture, right? That small gesture, let her know that I was paying attention and had her best interest in mind. That's a great opportunity to read the room. Yes, great example. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, that's good. And this is such a personal situation anyway, when you're, you know, we're talking about their money. Yeah, you know, yeah, this is hard. Okay, so now we've gone through steps one, two, and three, we're on to step four, need discovery. And so I'm really interested to know more about this because you have some really interesting approaches for cause selling. And again, it's that close ended versus open ended questions. When you're trying to build rapport, but more importantly, really discover what that donor wants to do and how this might work. Yeah, absolutely. So we often refer to need discovery as the heart of the cycle, because this is, this really is where you're learning so much about your, you know, your potential donor. So, so this is pretty basic 101, right? You closed ended versus open ended. You always want to ask open ended questions, so that, you know, it continues a conversation, you want to get more out of the donor than a yes or no answer. And there are, there are certain, you know, different categories that you can look at, right? So there's the personal questions that you could ask, like, what makes you, what makes you want to give to a nonprofit organization? What are the things around contributing to nonprofits that bring you joy, right? So those types of questions, more philanthropic related around, you know, again, how does it make it, how does it make you feel when you give a donation to an organization, right? Or ask them, if you were to describe the way you feel when you give a donation in terms of a color, what color would you be? Right? And just, you know, and getting creative in that way and asking cause selling questions. What is it about our mission and the work that we do that excites you? You know, so, so again, those open ended questions that create a conversation that really allow you to learn more about your donor. I mean, the needs discovery is all about questioning, but more important, it's about listening, right? And think about, and I'm going to take it back extremely juvenile, but anyone who's ever had a conversation literally with a child about their day at school, you'll always hear the one word question or the one word response, right? And so it's how do you become creative in your questioning to really get the person to talk. So if you've ever talked to a child about their day, this is a great time to practice that. So, right? And again, I say, I'm going to take it back to a very juvenile space, but you know, it doesn't matter if it's your child, a neighbor's child, you know, family member's child, but that is a great way to practice because you want to see if your questions truly are open or closed and they will tell you. That's a really good point. It is, you know, you're always at, instead of, I know with our kids instead of saying, how was your day today? We always said, what did you have for lunch? Yes, because if you just say how was your day, they're like, okay. But if you're like, well, what did you have for lunch? And then, you know, you can elicit more things. As you said, Tony, it really keeps the conversation rolling. So, you know, what exactly about or our organization drew you closer to the mission or, you know, what of our programs, right? Or which program have you really enjoyed watching? And what are some of the successes that you've noticed? Now, Tony, would it be inappropriate to ask about other organizations that that donor has worked with? I don't think so. I think it's a great opportunity to say, you know, I'd love for you to share with me a story about another nonprofit that you've supported and what is a great experience that you've had with other organizations that you've invested in and have them share that story because that again, that's going to give you a lot of good information around how to continue to nurture and steward that relationship once you receive the gift, because they're sharing with you a positive experience that they had. So, you can mimic some of that as you move them through the cycle and ultimately receive a gift. I love it. Hey, everybody, we want to remind you that we are with Tony Bell. I have been using this name. Good job. Wrong name. I've been saying his name incorrectly now. For almost a year, I just want to witness. But anyway, hey, we are really excited that you're with us today with Fundraising Academy's Cause Selling Education. This is a very special series that we are doing. And this series, we take this to more than our general 30 minutes that we stick to. So stay with us if you can, because we'll go another 15 minutes. We have so much more to talk about. And again, this is a special thing because Jared and I, we really don't extend our time in the normal course of the nonprofit show. But we have to talk about this because I loved this statement that you made, Tony. Ask for advice and you'll get money. Yeah, so this is, yeah, well, this is another great reminder that at least in my experience and what's been proven successful through the Cause Selling cycle is, again, we're building relationships. So very, very, very rarely are we asking for a gift in this first encounter with the potential donor, right? This is a get to know me, right? That's why we said needs discovery, right? This is a get to know me opportunity. And folks have no shortage of advice. Everyone loves to give opinions, loves to share their advice. So with, and it makes their involvement in the organization more meaningful. So if you share to someone, let's say, you know, for example, you might be ultimately asking for a gift because you're going to start a new program, right? Or you're going to expand on a different or expand on an existing program with your nonprofit. So here's where you could ask them, you know, advice. Have you, have you heard of similar programs like we're getting ready to launch? And if so, what have you heard about them, either positive or negative? If you were going to launch a micro enterprise, what micro enterprise might you launch? We're considering launching this micro enterprise. Do you think that that would be successful in our market? So, you know, again, those types of open-ended questions around the work that you're doing or the work that you're looking to do, as again, you implement new programs or expand on existing ones, really helps the donor feel like a thought leader in the work that you're doing and allows them to, again, feel more engaged and invested in the outcomes and the solutions that you're looking to bring to the communities that you're serving. Right. There's this quote that I've heard. And in fact, I just shared it during a strategic planning meeting that I held last Friday. Oh, strategic planning, goosebumps everywhere. Oh, good. Me too. I knew you were a nerd right along with me. But the quote is, and I have no idea who said it. So if either of you are with our listeners do, people support that in which they help create, right? People support that in which they help create. So if you're asking for advice, right, you'll get money because people want to be a part of creating. That was my southern draw. They want to be a part of that creation. I know it comes out in the most inopportune times. But really, like we do. And so, you know, using that opportunity to have a conversation, develop rapport with these investors, i.e. supporters and donors, is a great way to get them engaged to help create the plan. Exactly. And that leans into, you know, part of why I love the fact that we use the terminology called selling. Because again, in this space, we're selling an idea, a solution to a community need. Right. So when we engage them in that kind of conversation, they're helping to build the solution. So you then talk about when you're having this engagement, and I'll call it an engagement, and you're starting to, you know, drill down, and you're looking at what the donors, if you will say their interests are. You have some really interesting ways to look at this. You know, you can ask the motivation question, because what is the personal tug? And there might be something that's really, really personal that drives somebody. And it can be tragic. True. Unfortunately, that's true. Yeah. I mean, and it can be hard to hear, and it can be hard to manage. Right. So the motivation question is, you know, are things like, you know, why are you passionate about the work that our organization is doing? Why are you passionate about this space? This space just meaning, why are you passionate about supporting nonprofits in general? You know, again, what motivates you to want to invest in a nonprofit organization? It's really a fascinating thing, because I think that sometimes you might not be ready for what somebody says. Right. And I think that's kind of interesting. I think the next thing you talked about is the success question. And I would love for you to talk about that, because that's something that I don't know if we drill down enough. Yeah. So the success question are things like asking the donor, what do you want to achieve through your investment with our organization? What do you consider a good return on investment? Yeah. For you, again, as an investor in our cause and as an investor in the solutions that we're bringing to the community that we serve. So that's really what the success question is all about is, again, what do you want to achieve? How do you measure success in the organizations that you support? And I think what's interesting about that is that as somebody who's trying to build this relationship, it will give you a framework with which to communicate, to know how to get back to that donor to say, I know this was important to you. This is what's happening. This is where we're going. But then you say, ask them what frustrates them as well. I think that's interesting. Yeah. So the frustration really is more around, what do you want to change? Right? As a donor, as a philanthropist, what do you want to change? So that's what the frustration means. What is it that has frustrated you so much that you want to invest in our organization to affect this change? And it may go back, it may tie into the motivation question. I had a family member with a health condition. As I look for support from them, I noticed a gap in services. And that frustrated me because my loved one needed something that wasn't being fulfilled in the current structure. And so it's that frustration that is motivating me to be successful. I mean, it's also tied together in donating to your cause. Right. I had a conversation yesterday with someone who's actually started a nonprofit but as I go through these first three questions here in front of us on the slide, Tony, in our conversation, she told me what she was frustrated about, right? The how many children are in foster care and the adoption process in particular in my state. She told me why she was motivated by this because she herself was a foster child that became adopted, right, at 16. She was adopted at the age of 16. And then she also told me what success looked like of what she thought the system could do differently. So that right there, it was a conversation. But as I'm looking at these questions, I'm now looking with a new lens, Tony, through this cause selling approach truly to say, okay, in this conversation, can I answer these five questions, right? From this brief conversation with this individual, can I do I have the answers for these? Yeah. Exactly. That was great. Talk to me about the right fit and the commitment because I wonder if I can check those boxes too. So the right fit, of course, is, you know, how do you how do you choose what nonprofits you you like to support? So ask you the potential donor, you know, how do you make this decision? How do you determine whether or not an organization is the right fit for you and and and be prepared for all kinds of different answers, right? And and it could be around it. It could be I know if they're a right fit because I like the annual report that's delivered every year. So I really get to see, you know, that the fiscal management of the of the organization, a right fit question might be, you know, I, I support the the level of diversity and inclusion that exists within your organization. I respect the diversity and inclusion that exists on your board of directors, right? So it's those, it's, it's kind of, you know, those right fit questions. You know, and then the commitment question is really around, you know, what level of engagement do you like to have with the organizations that that you invest in? Do you like to, you know, Julia, like you were saying, do you like to visit the facility? Do you want, you know, above and beyond your incredible investment financially? Do you want volunteer opportunities? Do you want to serve on a task force? You know, so just really getting to, you know, do you want to host a table for our gala? You know, so just really asking questions about how do you want to be involved? How do you want to be engaged with the organization? What level of commitment do you want to have? It's really interesting because I would imagine that a lot of these questions are something, for some donors, they're going to have to ponder them. You know, they're, they're, depending on what their experience has been with other organizations, how much they know you. Again, from the get go, you, you talk to us about this. This is about building a relationship and trying to determine how you're going to go forward. Not just for one time, but, you know, for a sustained period of time, maybe even multi-generational. Without a doubt. That's like the really where we want to get to. So I'm so fascinated by that and how you really try and draw that out. But more importantly, you say something as we finish up our time today and it's gone by so ding dang quickly. It always does. It's such a pleasure to be with both of you all the time. I mean, I know, you know, we could sit back for hours and just go on and on and on and on. One day we will. I guarantee you. I know. We'll talk about this because we want to kind of wrap this up today with like almost to me, we should have in some way started because it's listening is a critical skill and cause selling. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, when we started talking about the needs discovery, you know, I said needs discovery is really about questioning and listening, but more so about listening. So we've talked about, you know, some of the great questions that you can ask so that you're getting really good information about the about the donor. So listening is really critical. And so listening means truly not forming an answer before they're done. Right. Listen all the way tell, you know, all the way till you get to the punctuation, whether it's a period of question mark or an exclamation point, right? Just listen to the entire the entire thought that's being shared with you by the potential donor. So avoid prejudices, you know, avoid prejudgment around what you're hearing. Be patient. Right. I mean, if they're going, you know, if the donor is going on and on, that's great. Let them go on and on. So so be patient. Even if you ask a question, and there's moments of silence, embrace the moments of silence, don't feel like you have to fill that void. Right. Embrace the moments of silence. So be patient. Take notes. And one of the reasons why it's important to take notes, not only for your future follow up, but for the moment that's happening right now in this conversation, so that you can reiterate or reinforce what's being said, which proves to the potential donor that you've been listening. Right. I was going to ask you about that because I was wondering if that's like, does that seem too invasive? If somebody's taking notes or like what that might seem like, because it doesn't seem as though it's as conversational. Well, I think it's how you frame the activity. So I'll often say, oh my gosh, what you're sharing with me is so good. I don't want to forget any piece of it. So I'm just going to make a couple of notes so that I don't forget, you know, the great information that you're sharing, especially if you're asking them, you know, those questions around, you know, what do you consider to be successful or, you know, how can my organization be better? You're going to want to say, this is really great, great information. So, you know, forgive me, I just want to take some notes because I don't want to forget any of what you're saying. I love it. And going back to if there's anything that you need to deliver after the meeting, that too is something you want to write down so you don't forget it. Without a doubt. And when I do those follow-ups, I always kind of lead into them with saying something like as promised. Right. Blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm a big advocate of the as promised. That's a great, that's a great thing to remember. Well, I'm just thrilled. And again, I learned so much from you. And you've really made me see how I've done things incorrectly over the years of asking for money on behalf of the organizations, not as a professional, but just as a board member or somebody out in the community. It has just put me on a new way of thinking. And so I'm going to put up this iconography for the cause selling wheel, as I like to call it, really is eight steps. Today, we've gone through step three and four. We started with step one and two. And so really, as we were talking, you can jump in, you can jump out. It's all about building those relationships. You can find all of Tony Bell's amazing work on our Roku channel and also on our website in our archives. We are lumping all of these amazing cause selling series together so that you or your team can look at these, you know, in the logical order or where you might find that you're needing some extra help, as we like to say. So what an amazing thing. Again, I'm Julia Patrick. I've been joined by the non-profit nurture self, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven group. But more importantly, we've had Tony Bell here with National University and the fundraising academy. Wow. What a game changer for our sector to have a logical process that is natural, that builds confidence, not only with the asker, but the donor. I'm really, really impressed. It's the right way, I think, Tony, to be building a stronger future for all of our non-profits. And Jared and I talk about this all the time is, Jared has this amazing thing, the ROR, return on the relationship. Where you're going and how you're getting there. So fundraising academy, now we're doing this twice a month. So you will see us again in April. We're doing this on Tuesdays. So Jeff, definitely check your calendar and watch for our notices because you don't want to miss these next phases and steps that are coming up. Again, we want to thank our presenting sponsors without you. We would not be here having this robust conversation. And wow. Now, Tony, I want to go out and ask for some money for some, for one of my organizations I support. Okay. Well, again, it's such an honor to be with both of you. I'm very passionate about our cost selling process. And it's just an honor and privilege to share it with the both of you and with our viewers. So thank you for the opportunity. Thank you. It's amazing. It's a game changer. And what could be better than making our non-profits stronger? I mean, this to me is like the work of the angels. So I'm so appreciative. As we end every show, we like to remind everybody to stay well. So you can do well. And doing well is part of cost selling. If you don't mind me saying so. Anyway, thanks so much. I hope you all have a great day. Thanks for sticking with us on this extra special series from the fundraising academy and the nonprofit show. Have a great day, everybody. We'll see you here tomorrow.