 Welcome welcome welcome. I've been sort of pukey all day so hopefully uh hopefully this will go smooth. I think not so made it safe to Oregon last night but he's not back yet. Or maybe he is. Maybe he's gonna pop in. I don't know I haven't talked to him today. Well maybe he'll pop up. Hopefully he will. But soon we will have Chimera from Chimera Seeds. Legend of the BC scene. So yeah I'm just getting everything ready. What's a good sight? Let's see. Let me see. Let's try. Let's see. I want to try to find a good sight for for tests to go over and I brought my tablet out just to do that but I have no fucking clue where the internet even is on this tablet. There it is. What do you guys think is a good sight like SE labs or something? I've tried to think of a few different ones. I don't know. Let me see if we can find him yet. If you're in here come here. Just raise your hand. Did I hear yet? Okay. Wait a little bit more. My nose recover from yesterday. What did I do yesterday? Oh the scent stuff. I had a headache for a while. The whole house smelled like um like artificial grape all night. Yeah that was fun though. It was very interesting and informative. Did any of you guys pick up a kit after to try it? I really want to do another episode where a bunch of us have kits and we can all do it so you guys can all type in here like what's going on which are smelling etc. and get a good handle on it. How much are they? The kits. He's seriously having a look. Whatever they are they're probably worth it you know because they're they're pretty fun. Yeah we could do a group workshop over on discord as well. Not so he's in travel mode. As far as I know I haven't talked to him. He may pop up for all I know but I haven't heard from him to know. Hey bitters is not so home yet you know? 175 for the advanced kit. Yeah it's about right. Makes sense. The site was um it's a long long site. Parafinaliassocial.com so you have to know how to spell paraphernalia but social.com. Okay I'm gonna start out. No actually I already did yesterday. I gotta read this thing again. Once Kymyra gets here so I can be pro-fesh. You guys like my pro-fesh? Fucking mode. The 2.0. Who'd win in a cage match? Me or henna? Come on. Come on don't be silly. Don't be silly. I don't go beating up on Chad's. I don't do that shit. That's mean. I don't even dislike in-house that much. I just I don't like how that situation went. I really don't. I don't have any respect for him for it. The terms. Which terms? The terms. The Terps? The terms. Sorry we're just waiting. I want to get the the crowd up a little bit. I know Saturdays are weird for us. Sorry I didn't watch the fights earlier too. I was sick. I didn't even realize they were on so early but it was a London show. Looks like Patty Pimlet. Fucking choked that dude out and gust us and lost. It sucks. I like Gus. Who's the guy that commented and had you change the trademark? I don't remember the name dude. It was in an old... you could probably find the post still on Instagram because it was done in a... unless it's gotten reported because all my shit got reported for a while. But yeah. I can't remember the name. The dude did end up being nice like at the end of the conversation. They're very long and along the thread. We were laughing at each other but yeah. I started out a little contentious. Nothing yet? Nothing yet? Nothing yet. I'm sure you guys love staring at my ugly fucking head right now. That's what we all want to see. What's up? You guys got any questions in the meantime till we get started? So we can kill some time? Any comments? Questions? Concerns? Questions about UFOs? Questions about fucking serial killers? Questions about whatever? I don't know. Anything you guys got questions about? I'll take them. Oh thank you. I try to have the most beautiful nog impossible but you know. I get sick of staring at my fucking head. I'm staying sober for this one too because Camara talks way over my head. The guy is brilliant and when it comes to science it's really hard to find anyone who is as competent with science and breeding science when it comes to that as him. So I'm trying to try to keep my shit together today. I have not tested out the Purple Pro yet. I know CSI got one but I don't know if I don't think he's had even time to touch it or use it or do anything with it yet. Is the S or C silent in the word scent? That's a good one. All the BB stuff you've done, anything with outcast cut from nugs and jug days? I have not. No one ever passed it. Why didn't you stick your pinky out when you sip your tea? This is coffee. It's actually half-calf coffee because yesterday I drink full-calf coffee and was up all night. Steep pill labs, do cannabinoid interpret testing? I don't know much about any of the labs which is a reason why we're doing the show. Hopefully Kymer remembers it's on this account and not the other one. Let's see if I can send an invitation to him somehow. Let's see, breeding cannabis. Okay, make sure I got them on the right one. There he is, Mr. America. Oh wait, no he's not from America. So welcome, let me get it going, from Kymer Seeds in a few minutes. There he is. Mr. Nacho of America. How you doing dude? Not bad how you guys doing? All right, it's good to see you. Not so may or may not show up at some point but we're gonna get started without him. All good. All right, so I got to read this up. I'm trying to make it more professional because we're doing the 2.0 breeder syndicate and everything so I have to read this thing and then we'll get jamming. Gotcha. Welcome to breeder syndicate where we explore the history of a clandestine scene through the eyes of the folks who lived it. I'm Matt, the owner of Riot Seeds. This is Kymyra, owner of Kymyra Seeds. Yeah, welcome to the underground. Is there a good place to look up the labs aspect, like different labs that I could put, I have my tablet right here. Yeah, I'm wondering the best way to do this. You know what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna send you a text message with a sample, okay, a report format that I will do with designing the way it is really we can use anything right. The important thing is that we go through a lab report and show people what are the things to look at. What can you like obviously in a lab report there's all this built-in information, right. Yeah. How can you take that information and essentially infer things about the results or see if you can identify problems with what the lab has done. Yeah. And so you know what you sent me the other day and I think you got this posted on your IG or something. Yeah, yeah they're posted on the IG. Yeah, so people can check those out either now or later but you know like I said one of the things I said to you back then was that it wasn't really like that was those were results that somebody had cut and pasted into a spreadsheet. Yes, yeah. So that's an opportunity for like anybody to manipulate. Yeah, yeah anybody can fuck with it at that point. Yeah. A legal document in a way. Yeah. Oh they are legal documents? Yeah. I didn't know that. It's especially when it comes to like you know obviously there's all this environmental testing that needs to be done but yes in the context of regulations like these are legal documents that certify something for the purpose of regulation. Yeah. So that has done to like a good standard, right? Yeah. I don't know why I'm not having a moneyluck sending this thing over. Let's do it this way. All right, so that'll bring up a picture and you might want to actually go in and copy the link from the picture but this lab report is called the Phytofax. Okay. Phytofax was developed by Napro. It's actually it's an image search. I don't know what comes up for you but it's the top left picture on that. Okay, one sec. I got to switch off here because it'll it'll pause me for a second. One sec. There we go. You looked really crazy when you were frozen. Like you had a really bizarre look. There we go. I don't know if it'll even let me show pictures on here now. You might just have to copy and paste the link in or you know what we'll put it up on our IG after so people. Yeah let's put it up on IG after. Yeah so essentially like look when you get back when most places give you back a lab report. I mean we're looking at even if we're just talking cannabinoids you're looking at like minimum 12 chemicals. Okay because like I guess it's probably important to talk like a little bit about lab testing. There's various ways there's different assays that you can do so there's different tests that you can run to try and determine the cannabinoid content of a sample. Right? Yeah. If you put it into a GC a GC has got something it called a what is it called the injection port on a GC. It's like putting what you do is you take up you take think about you like you got your bite you put it in some alcohol or some ethanol or something that's going to extract catamabinoids. You more or less shake it up and then you take like one microliter of the liquid that has now dissolved so you got your ethanol but now you've got all the stuff that came off the plant. Yes. Right in that liquid and so what we want to do is we take we take a small sample of that liquid I'll call it like a thousandth of a millilitre milliliter and that gets injected into this injection port of the of the gas chromatic. Okay and so what that does is it takes the liquid that we have with all of our stuff inside it and makes it into a vapor that that injection port is heated like 300 degrees. Yeah. They are 350 degrees Celsius or whatever. So the point is is when you put that shit in in the liquid or sorry that liquid into the injector and it becomes a vapor it automatically decarboxylates. Yeah. Right so you don't you no longer have because the cannabis plant doesn't make THC it makes THC acid. Yeah. We really want to be able to detect the compounds as they were in the plant. Right. Yeah. Because what happens is when stuff gets decarboxylated a certain percentage of it like gets destroyed in the conversion process and just yeah right. So it's like if you start with like a hundred percent of THC acid or a hundred molecules of THC acid and say you lose 20 percent of those molecules as it gets converted into THC. Yeah. When you get a report at the end that shows 80 milligrams of you know THC or 80 units of THC that's not what was actually in the sample. Right. Our testing method has destroyed part of the sample. And so if you go back and look at like all the cannabinoid testing that's been done you know in the scientific literature 60 70s 80s most of it was done on DC. Right. So the numbers that we see are going to be lower than really what was in the plant. And so call it like that's interesting. Roughly after 2000 sometime it might have been like late 90s. People started realizing hey no we need to do this in what's called an HPLC or a high pressure liquid chromatograph chromatograph. And the liquid chromatograph doesn't do that initial decarboxylation step. Right. Because your sample it gets rather than going into injection in an injection port your micro micro leader of liquid sample that we use to extract you know our extraction buffer from the plant. Yeah. That gets injected into like a stream of other liquid that runs through the machine at like 25 27 30 degrees. Right. Maybe. So that's not a big deal. That's not decarboxylating anything. So the chemicals that are in that in the HPLC and the liquid chromatograph they don't change. Right. So what we're getting if we use that method is an accurate representation of what's in the what's in the sample. Okay. And so it's a much better technique for using for cannabinoids. Is that what they use now. Not all labs are the same. Right. So this is kind of the way here's the thing is the lab the regulations usually say you have to develop a test that will accurately quantify cannabinoids. Yeah. And that test must be what's called validation and validated just means like you run a set of experiments using your your your protocol to show that your protocol is actually measuring what you say it's measuring. Yeah. Right. It's like it's like calibrating your ruler. It's like proving that your ruler is calibrated. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. You're not saying stuff 12 inches and really it's like you know eight and a half inches or whatever. Right. It's the same kind of thing. Yeah. Validation is. And so the regulations say you have to develop a validated method. But they don't tell you you have to use this exact method with this machine in this column and this solvent and this extraction buffer. Right. And so yeah what ends up happening is every lab develops and you'll see if you go and ask them about their methods. A lot of them will come back and say well that's for pride there we can't disclose to you the way. Right. Yeah. A red flag like if I'm yeah labs you know like I'm not a one off like we do it in house because it gets too expensive that it to do it as a third party. But if I am working with a third party lab we're not just running one or two tests like we're going to be running hundreds of tests. Right. Yeah. And so we're essentially paying them to generate data for us. Right. So I need to be sure that the test that you guys are running actually measures what it says. So I'll go in to a lab and say show me all your validation documents. Yeah. They won't let you photocopy them take them with you that you can certainly sit down in their office and read through their method. Yeah. Right. And we've done this like when I was working at Napier we did this with multiple different labs because Napier was a research lab and we had dispensary clients that were so you know growers that we represented would grow the samples we would analyze the results they go off to the lab or they go off to the dispensary but the dispensary would be using like one or two or three of the biggest labs in California for the same samples. Right. We had our data that we knew was damn solid and we've published the method so anybody can go and check out why it's all but it's like we had real confidence in that our results were right. But we would what would happen is because our client would send off the same sample that we had data for to multiple labs. We would get back that are essentially duplicate copies of the same results. Yeah. But with somebody else's lab right. So it was generated by something else and you'd see oh this lab can identify terpenaline or this lab is confusing CBD and CBG. Oh wow. Right. And like those are pretty big deals. Right. Yeah. That's a big deal. Well again like 99.9% of the samples they see are THC only so it doesn't really matter whether that tiny little blip is CBD or CBG. Yeah. Again like if we're saying that this is a legal document that supports the regulations that have been created to protect cannabis like it's kind of an important thing. Yeah. Yeah. You'd think so. So yeah. And so in the in the gas chromatography when they do that kind of sample with the ethanol is that little tiny one milliliter that they are point whatever milliliters is that homogenous enough when they pull it to be a great average of the sample that they're taking is that is it. Is that how that works. Yeah. And it's like that's a very good question. So the sampling of the one micro liter thing like you can you can imagine that like every step along that process from taking the flower it's actually goes back. It's like it starts with the sampling procedure. How did you get the bud out of the bag that it was grown in or out of the lot that it was grown in. Okay. And so very often what happens is this is like listen everybody found all sorts of ways to game the system because the consumer is so THC driven. Yeah. Everybody is trying to work every single angle. Right. So for example growers will go and cherry pick all the biggest nicest beautiful buds out of the thing. The biggest buds are the top of the plant they get. Yeah. Of course. They're going to have a lot of chemical content. Right. And so if you want a real number of the batch we developed a sampling method where you know you take one bud this big and one bud this big and then one bud this big and they all get combined together or you know so many grams of each the whole gets blended up and homogenized and then you use that homogenized sample to do your extraction. Right. People don't do it like if you're showing up at SC labs and you're trying to like you got a feed company you're trying to sell a million seeds they go on they chop off the top top is nice biggest buds they trim all the like the green leafy parts off so there's yeah absolutely nothing but resin. Yeah. And then those pristine beautiful baby labs go off the samples go off to the left you're going to get a higher number. Yeah. That's obvious but these are the games that end up getting played because the more THC you got in your sample the better the distributors and the retailers and everybody is you know anybody that's THC focused they're going to get bamboo from that kind of stuff right. Yeah. And so like you said there's that's just sampling the flower now goes to the lab like maybe the labs like getting paid a decent fee and they like put like an extra you know point five or five percent extra flower on the scale when they go to do the extraction buffer like there's there's a million ways between the plants and getting you know that that injection going into the injection port ways to manipulate the sample. Yeah. Forget like intentionally manipulating it there's also like natural variation and like experimental error that happens that is going to allow that is going to have an allowed variation and so one thing we were talking about the other day is that like for example in Canada the regulation says that the THC content in the flower must be whatever's labeled on the on the bag or the box however it's labeled for THC content that has to be within plus or minus 15 percent of the actual amount well so that's like if it's 20 percent and it's actual 20 percent 50 percent of 20 is three so that means that like 23 to 17 or 17 to 23 is actually like that plus or minus 15 percent window on either side of 20 right. Yeah. So like it's important for people to understand that like with a loud error that's to be expected there's really no difference between 17 percent and 23 percent and then and again that would apply like between 30 and 24 right like well yeah as you go up like yeah 30 now yeah you know but 50 percent of 30 is four and a half percent right so you've got like 34 percent down to like what is it 26 five and a half right 25 and a half yeah yeah so like that's a huge rocket right yeah as you get higher it gets total wider yeah and listen that is cannabinoids are typically regulated by regulation like the regulator whoever makes the rules for the you know to set up a legal program says hey cannabinoid lab tests have to be with plus or minus within plus or minus 15 percent that's what that's going to be our loud range so your your assay that are that protocol that your lab designs to generate this thing it has to hit between these two ago well like for example turbs aren't regulated in canada right so they're turbs are considered cannabinoids no they're not cannabinoids okay they're cannabinoids they're cannabinoids are a specific class that bind to the cannabinoid receptor and it's arguably like only beta carry-off and binds to cannabinoids except so but there are there are different chemical class but like you know all of us all the producers and retailers they want that terpene info on the label right yeah because it is somewhat informative to the consumer so it's another it's another way that you can differentiate your product say hey mine's different because this is the chemical well yeah turpinoids or terpenes aren't regulated in the system like there is no requirement to analyze and disclose the amount of terpene content on a flower it's like it's purely an extra thing yeah so because they're not regulated molecules there's no fucking regulations that says hey it has to be within 15 percent allowable range limit so in canada and i'm sure it's i don't i don't know exactly what it is it probably varies by district in the state but at least in canada because they're not regulated labs set their own allowable acceptable range so ooh i validated one labs method and i was reading through they're described allowable range is 30 plus or minus jesus so you've got like let's call it like well let's call it six percent terps yeah a third is like two out of those six so that's essentially saying like you know two percent on either side of six that's like from four to eight percent range yeah the lab can't really differentiate between the difference between those things right yeah um like that's a bomb that's a huge bummer i don't think people understand that because you know when some of these labs publish the results they're like oh you have like 3.479 milligrams of terpene or 3.579 um percent mere scene yeah right well it's like dude if it's 30 percent off why the hell are we measuring it down to three decimals yeah that's true that's wild yeah it's it's something to think right it's like you just it's so dumb but again you have to realize there's a difference between accurately labelling the information on a product versus how can you stick information on a label of a product to sway a consumer's buying process right yeah um and clearly those aren't the same thing no so it not at all it's kind of it i think it's really well for anybody watching like if you're just basing things on tc numbers you're getting fooled like you're getting bamboozled right yeah um you're getting you're having your marketing emotions played with right and this is this is what companies do um so understanding that all in context maybe let's think about going back and looking at like a laboratory right and so yeah for in the in the numbers that you sent me one of the things i found really interesting was you know whenever i look at a lab report my first thing is i don't even like everybody goes to straight to tac or straight to terpene content or whatever yeah i don't know i go who who's the lab yeah right who's the lab are these guys trustworthy or not and you have to like a thousand lab reports or two thousand lab reports you start to say hey these guys always have like you know like all of the rows of alts are like 33 to 38 percent thc like yeah really yeah i find that same logic rare things or to seed companies you know like i see them working with things like 40 different things that have been non-existent for 40 years and i'm like okay well full of shit you know yeah yeah and it's marketing right and the thing is too like the other thing you got to keep in mind too it's like when we see these huge thc scars like 30 plus percent thc acid that's a huge amount yeah there really is like a fucking massive amount for a plant to produce that was one flower on one run right yeah that's really what was set sampled if you follow that cultivar back through 510 cycles like you'll see 28 26 i'm sure yeah the more that always appears on the seed bank package says it's 34 percent oh yeah yeah right so like people got to realize that like when you're being fed one of these numbers especially if it doesn't come on that certified letterhead legal document and they're fine at the bottom like if you go down and look at it it's signed by the laboratory manager right because again that's part of this chain of custody thing that happens with regulated shit right yeah so um yeah so check out the lab okay yeah secondly look before even looking at the numbers like i always like you know i always want to say before i can put any confidence in these numbers i need to try and figure out how those numbers were generated yes and so a lab report should say cannabinoids were analyzed by hplc sometimes get a laboratory back and it says cannabinoids were analyzed by gc well it's like right there i'm like okay well the cannabinoid numbers could be off by 30 yeah right because we've done those experiments and you can burn up to 30 or 30 percent of the total cannabinoid content in an injection port of the gc inject like gcs are not a great instrument for measuring cannabinoids even though all the analysis college like up to the mid 90s was done that way right yeah but for terpenes for example it's actually a great way to do it and so a lot of very good labs what they'll do is they'll do it you'll do your you know you put your bod dried it up the homogenize it take your sample put in your ethanol or methanol or whatever your extraction buffer is strip out the contents separate out the solid material now you've got your little liquid yeah with all your goodies in it right that often gets split into two different samples or you will sample two different one microliter amounts from there one goes gets injected into an hplc for cannabinoids a separate one goes into an hpl or sorry a gc for terpenine or terpenine okay okay we actually used to do two different things when we sent the one off to the the hplc we would take your sample out and then we would take one raw sample out of that sub sample and the other would get diluted by a factor of 10 so you have nine parts nine microliters of the solid mixed in so now what you do is you have a diluted sample and a concentrated sample and so the concentrated sample is good for all the very small components that exist like you know cbc cbg whatever the little blip cannabinoids are essentially you've got one that's like really it's like being able to do that on those with a magnifying glass yeah your diluted sample for the molecules that are there in abundance right because if you try to often if you try to cram those like thc like a type one plant that's full of thc you cram that through your hplc and it just it overloads the detector okay so you wanted to so as you can see all these places are opportunity for error yeah if you do them very very carefully you can actually get incredibly incredibly accurate results now if you're like running a thousand two thousand samples a week that come into your commercial laboratory in california that's like three throughput yeah so it's like you're you're essentially breaking down how many can i do in a day okay well if i'm doing that many a day maybe i don't have the ability to do it quite as accurately yeah right and so these are the decisions that get made in the labs no one's thinking about everybody just thinks you drop down your 120 bucks or 150 bucks and you get a bunch of numbers back and it's proof of yeah you just toss in the machine bam yeah it's not like that right so it's just important for people to understand the context right so do um did you want to go over the standard what the standard is how it works yeah so a chemical so any machine has to be calibrated right um and that has the best way to explain it when we take you got your so you got your bud okay you get your bud call us our extraction buffer you put a flower in there you put in your ethanol and shake it around blah blah blah sit at the flower sit at the flower i just threw a sample all over the ground you sit about the flower and you got your your your leftover what we've got is ethanol or methanol whatever it doesn't matter you're solvent with all the chemicals that we were able to strip out of the cannabis plant material so you got turf got all the different cannabinoids a standard like but we don't know how much of everything is in that sample like it's an unknown amount of unknown chemicals in this sample right and what we need to do is compare it to a known sample and so you can actually order pure txt from a lab synthesis company and these synthesis companies that are allowed to have you know they get a dea license so that like the cops can have and they'll they'll sell they'll get a dea license so they can synthesize thc and make what are what are known as like a chemical standard which is usually one milligram of thc into one milliliter of methanol yeah methanol is an alcohol but it's not like ethanol it's poisonous make it go blind so the idea of people won't consume it so it's it's so weird that anybody would like consider the idea to go get thc standard ethanol and like fucking shoot it or whatever they're doing and do with it it's wild yeah but this is with the dea the context of the dea thinking in progress right like yeah go over thc and someone's gonna try and get high a milligram like dude really yeah you know like even like a 20 but is like 200 milligrams yeah right so it's like really you're gonna try to anyway of course you don't but that's the theory behind it but one milligram in one milliliter of ethanol is legal it's legal for people to buy and trade it without having licenses so now you have your one milligram milliliter you can essentially treat that like your extraction buffer extract the cannabis plant you can take like one microliter out of that milliliter injected into your hplc and you get a peak of a known amount and you can say okay this peak is i know that it's this known amount we're putting in boom you know now i can when i run another sample and it has a peak of the same size i know that it had the equivalent amount of thc so it's a way that you can calibrate your machines okay got it and good labs will do what are called check standards like you run your calibration curve you get the machine all calibrated and then like call it every three or five or maybe ten runs rather than running a sample you run your standard through yeah standard mix of terpene standards and cannabinoid standards and what that should do is that like now you have throughout your day you've got your hundred samples that are going through the lab say every ten you've got like a snapshot of the machine in calibration yeah and if it's out you can see oh hey we caught it while it was getting out of calibration let's recalibrate it all right that makes sense it's an important it's for any analytical endeavor where you're trying to figure out like hey what's the exact amount of compound in a plant or in a substance you want to have the ability to combat or to validate that number confirm that the amount that you're measuring is actually what you're measuring right yeah um so it's a great question because like when our my friend Arnold has camped is a Dutch research scientist that was involved in setting up the Dutch system and he's a real plant nerd guy and he started doing all this research and he wanted to to check to see if the standards from the chemical company or for are what they were you know they're supposed to be one milligram per milliliter while he did a whole bunch of tests and showed that the standard but that was actually 88 or 0.88 milligrams oh yeah so the the the substance that the guys are selling to all the labs wasn't properly calibrated that means everybody in the industry is off right or everybody that's from those guys is off like this is we're talking you know I think this is like 20 2009 but two years ago in Canada the same thing happened right like somebody had defied that hey you know the res-tech sample that was res-tech as a supplier for standards the res-tech samples that everybody uses to calibrate or half the industry uses to calibrate they've been wrong for eight months man they kept that quiet it comes up in the circles but it that's it like yeah it does come up if you if you're it listen when that happens they have to like they're legally to send that required and again you're the support industry for a regulated system yeah you fucked up that's affecting everybody how they're complying with the regulations it's like they have to close right so it does it does become known amongst labs but again it's the type of thing that like the labs might they're not required to disclose to the public yeah yeah right they probably should disclose to their clients but often they don't right yeah um or it can happen that they don't so anyway like yeah that's a chemical standard and you buy a chemical essentially if you're calibrating for cannabinoids like you know i was just on the sc lab website reading over through some of their stuff they they test for 39 terpenoids and terpenoids so they either have a standard mix that a chemical supplier supplies or they buy individually all of those individual terpenoids and create their own standard mix that they used to to calibrate the machine so you're not only calibrating for thc you're calibrating for terps if you're on the test for every individual terpene wow yeah and like i said some now they've gotten to the point where i spent like uh you know say res-tac or someone one of these terpene or these supply chemical supply companies that services the medical cannabis industry they might say hey we've done the mix for you here's 15 terpenes you know all the majors or whatever mere yeah the pioneers terpenaline blah blah blah and you'll buy a premixed one of those so that you don't have to individually go in create the standard to put it to calibrate your gc yeah um but again anytime you're buying a compound that you're not making and you're not quantifying your say itself is a potential source of error yeah absolutely so yeah it's a bit of a deal so wow so when we started looking at your results i started going through them i realized whoever was generating those results for one it like again it was data pasted into a excel spreadsheet yeah it wasn't even a lab report so it's like one like we're all about like how much i'm not saying it was the numbers were wrong but if somebody gave it to me my red flags would be like okay something could be up here yeah the second thing i went through and i started looking at what's the ratio of thc um in the plant versus thc acid in the plant as you probably know cannabis doesn't produce thc it produces the form thc acid and so it right right right away if you get a lab report back and there's a junk thc in there like i'm talking more than really a percent yeah it's probably been run through a gc uh so it's like okay if the thc numbers are coming out like you know 20 percent thc 25 whatever that's yeah you should see 25 percent thc acid yeah you shouldn't see 25 percent thc so that's right there again like just by that one number you can see oh they measure the whether or not they measure the cannabinoids through htlc or through gc if it's through gc the number is probably wrong yeah because again we know that it's a bunch of it gets destroyed in the injector right so there's things that you can like right off the top look at you know most people are looking at this they they grab a lab report they go straight to the thc number and they're like 32 i'm the best yeah right and it's like that's you shouldn't be doing that right yeah looking at the context of what that number means is all the information in this lab report consistent right and internally consistent like yeah between each other yeah like between itself does it make sense and so that was one of the things that that tweaked me a little bit when i first saw yours it was like they had clearly run in hplc and gc which is fine i mean yeah if you're using it for the Terps the gc is fine but they were probably it looked like they were collecting that cannabinoid data as they were doing the terpene run as well uh okay so it's like you know in my mind i'm like looking at i'm like ignore that yeah don't even look at that don't even put any credence into it because it's just it's weird well and with me like when i see something off like that and like when it comes to Terps and and lab reports the reason i sent it to you of course when we talked i was like i don't know like i have no fun clue you can read this but what is it but like yeah i i i i'm like anybody else you know like i i see that and i'm like wow thc number wow cool hi terp numbers what's this mean ask me about a year ago ryan when you start getting a skeptical about a lab report and i said when somebody says to me i have a lab report for you to see right you should already be skeptical the results and that's okay like it's not like you're trying to hate on somebody's report card no but you should be yeah you have to be yeah like that is the mentality that you have to have are these numbers that i'm looking at really real yeah right yes because like again like you know you hear i hear for a while in in washington they're calling them thc scores it's not a fucking score like you didn't win a race you know this is an analysis of what's in the flower that you grew yeah and like yeah you played a role in that but it's mostly genetics right like you know anyway it's just funny like you know in this world that we're in like there's so much grower's ego right or it's like oh yeah you know and it's like i really like let's try to tease those two things part right even how awesome you are from the weed to be grew i'm like all four telling people they grow great weed you know great flower i mean i'm always i don't care who it is yeah it's like if you're truly producing the finest that's great like people like that in my opinion help in the world right but if you're just growing like looking for lab course you can run around the world telling how everybody out there you are it's like yeah it doesn't press me like i've seen enough lab reports that like i don't like who cares great you got a big one it's like great you know what i mean like yeah we if you've grown up plants especially from seed you're going to find some big ones yeah right big big plants and big big high numbers so anyway that's like a good thing to look at look at the cannabinoids are you know are you seeing neutral cannabinoids or acidic cannabinoids or both right you want to be seen and you want your neutrals like thc cbd cbg you want those numbers to be really low yeah um because that's an indicator that your lab report is good and now you sent me like for example so you sent me one one had like i think there was like three and a three and a four percent or turf wise yes they're like i mean those are we had a we had we called the swag flag and it's really like under one percent so we would just discard anything that was under one percent terpene content yeah because they're they're not like they're 80s weed it's not that they're bad yeah it's just not the oiliest dankest like super drippy oily weed right yeah um and so we would just automatically meaning under it doesn't even get considered for the for you know quality and then we started you know this is a few years ago but we were you know getting into the four five percent range and through breeding the highest terpenoid producing plants we were able to get some like outliers that were up to like even seven percent or even eight yeah which is like ridiculously oily yeah um so you you know you can do that but again like you really want to have confidence in the lab that you're dealing exactly and it as a as a breeder like a home breeder it gets really fucking expensive to use 30 party third-party labs because it sure does you're growing 100 plants like that's like a $10,000 analytical bill yeah yeah in most cases like even if you were to turn around and sell every gram of that crop you're not getting like yeah you know unless you're growing huge plants you're not getting that 10 grand back yeah right so um doing that kind of breeding has to be funded by people with buckets or somebody that has an understanding that hey i'm going to make an investment in this and the result that comes out of the end is going to have value yeah right and and so nowadays like you'll see those plants that are like up into the five percent like five percent i'm not going to say it's a maxima in the market but like yeah when i see someone with a five percenter even when i consider it might be 30 percent inflated i'm like my good job you grew that well yeah um when i see eights i'm really skeptical yeah again they're not possible i know that they're possible because we've made them yeah but when it's such an anomaly got like six lines and all of them are eight percenters yeah that's kind of like oh yeah you won like five billion dollar lotteries in a row like the probability of that is really fucking low right and so when the probability is really low something shifty is probably going on right yeah again right like this isn't about calling anybody out or saying whatever your shit stuff yeah yeah like you know somebody show the uh 38 percent labs that flower the 38 percent total cannabinoids um which is like exceptionally high and it was pretty lab-important i called up josh you know i know josh and uh and alex from there they're two of the owners i called up alex and i said dude like what's up with this number like people are showing this all over ig and sending it to me tell me what's going on with the sample and he's like yeah he says when we get a number over you know i think it was 32 or whatever whatever but when they when they have a number that hits certain thing it go back to the sample start from the beginning again and yeah whole process reanalyze they call it a reprep run a reprep on that sample and they did and it came back like you know within the same small window that it was like yeah it's a real number wow so you can have like these massive fucking numbers where it's like all the stars aligned and the plants treated perfectly and it's the most banging genetic and the the dry and everything is done perfectly and you preserve that beautiful specimen and get it yeah um so when you when you show be your samples and you have that one that was higher yeah and all i can tell you is the seams high doesn't mean it's wrong yeah but it's one to look at it's anomalous and it's anomalous yeah and there's two anomalies in those three samples well yeah so so even if it was just based on the numbers i would be like yeah that doesn't mean that they're wrong yeah no lab for no signature it's not even on a lab report you know yeah no no lab never saw anything it's like all those things combined it's like red flag red flag red flag right so absolutely yeah and like i said you know the only way to really know these things is to run that sample that that plant to five different grows and analyze it that that makes you kind of see what's the range of what that plant does um yeah i mean i guess it could be an anomalous it could be an anomalous anomalously good grow just that one round and that's that the only time you'll ever see it yeah then i i think like i think that we can still say that like nobody really knows all the secret little switches and bells and whitton switches to give a plant to make it produce at its optimum optimum production every single time like sure you know you hit it or you don't and sometimes yeah like there's a lot of clouds or sometimes it's shitty weather and you get you know like whatever it is like yeah nothing goes perfectly the air conditioner goes down who knows right yeah a ton of things that can go wrong um so again in the context of like a thing i like consumers to know is that like it's just to understand that context is because it's like you know like i'm not in the market you're out in the market we're trying to sell seeds we're trying to provide good products from people and you got some junk that's been growing for like seven years and they've got an instagram page with other their crosses and like everything's you know i you know my results range from like 30 to 40 percent thc yeah the reason i want to have these conversations in public is so that like the consumers that are watching us they can become informed and then when they see the used car sales and seed pushers that like are everywhere in this fucking market every left turn like every second account that follows me is something genetics or something labs yeah right and it's like you know you're a lab already you've got like a tenth yeah um it's all about it it's all about marketing it's all about trying to fucking make money right yeah and you know i'd like making a living out of the cannabis would be nice for everybody but you know i really have taken this to like a stupid level of passion yeah in-depthness that it's like when i have to stand beside like Joe Blow that's like spelt nonsense it's like i just you know and i'm not competing not even competing for an audience but it's like i'm at a conference i'm speaking on a panel besides some dude that's like spelt nonsense dude it's like Jesus christ man yeah it's hard it's hard when you love something that much and you fit that many that many years into it and and just to watch you get bastardized super fast around you well yes and the only way to do that is to like you know it's to try to explain to people why your shit's different yeah like what you see like all this time and energy that i put into learning and understanding all this stuff like why it makes a difference in our our seeds yeah and you know it's it's demoralizing demoralizing to have to to sit there and do that and the but the only way to really have people recognized is to like educate all of our consumers right yeah so that people can be informed and people can like not get caught in the carnival get caught up with the carnival burgers yeah right so it's abundant well they're everywhere it's like you know it's like trying to walk across a field like avoiding cow paddies there's a loose bunch of stuff on labs i don't know what other stuff you want to cover or what there's questions from the audience or stuff that we want yeah someone someone asked are inaccurate percentages fabricated by by a false standards when using the gc uh what do you mean a standard like so i know yeah like i think the answer is yes lab results can be falsified they can also be there are all the time as we've explained with that 15 percent thing if you didn't understand to see that go back and watch it yeah there is an inherent amount of normal variation and acceptable laboratory error that influences the and results right so like when you put in the flower and you get back that lab report that didn't come from god right yeah like i don't believe god that didn't somebody didn't hand that down to the divine and say this is the divine ultimate truth right like yeah it's like hey we measured your shit this is the this is the measurement that we got here's the number and by the way what you should understand is that that number is like has an acceptable variation like on the other side of the question do people manipulate these laboratories yes absolutely in every district there have been laboratories that have had their bombs bank because like it's like if you take like you know there was somebody they in a leafy article somebody did this and laid out like a thousand lab reports they took all the statistical averages of all these different labs and every labs statistical average went on on a graph with a different color curve right oh wow you see like everybody is all lined over this one specific area and then you got one lab that's like shifted to the right their whole curve is like shifted to the right and it's like okay well what the fuck are these guys doing wrong yeah right and the truth is it happens in every district higher lab results get more sales of course therefore there's an incentive for labs to give higher results because they're a profit for profit service yeah and there's a benefit for growers to seek those labs out and maybe pay a little bit more for a higher number and so i think that's a bad design yeah i think the answer you can't go back to that question do do labs manipulate let's not say all labs but say a percentage of labs do manipulate and that can be done intentionally or unintentionally yeah the the way it setups right for corruption if if one wants to be corrupt it's you have to it again it's about this passion thing that we were talking about what are you seeking are you speaking to market and product or are you seeking the ultimate truth yeah are you seeking answers cannabis understanding right and like if you're controlling that agenda you're getting played by it right so if you're a consumer that's true unless you know like say for example like you know i go through all the stuff and you say to me you know dude i really want to be like kai integrity seed bank we're gonna do everything the right way and you show what you're doing at the right way i'm gonna have more faith in you yeah um and then if like i resonate with that kind of thing and i say hey matt's doing all the thing look he's demonstrating that like hey i got this lab report but maybe it was a little high i don't know like something's questionable that shows you got integrity if i'm a customer i'm gonna support that yeah right um but these are again that's like a value judgment something that i value the other might not value those things right like as you can see it like a lot of other people are like well fuck that the jungle boys is the hottest shit i'm gonna go grab whatever they got you know what i mean yeah they don't the value system is not the same so anyway next question and the education system is not the same i mean like that what we've been trying to do with the whole breeder syndicate thing has been it's been tough because we decided a long time ago the only way to combat disinformation and misinformation is to educate but you can't force people to want to educate themselves no you can't all you can do is lay it out for the people that want to know yeah and i'm pushing this ball of bill for a long time um more people are getting to the point where they want to know yeah right um and it's changing right i mean just it's changing over time but it takes yeah it takes time and you know it's like everything it's like you know what you and i consider good music that ain't what's on the top 40 right and the cannabis industry is going to be no different like there's going to people that really understand they're really passionate they really want to have some beautiful things and then there's like the 90 that are going to listen to Justin Bieber yeah right and smoke beaver butt so i have some i have some questions i want to run through uh it refers to testing but it it refers to genetic testing uh are you with that yeah sure okay um this is kind of a i don't know i mean i don't know if there's an answer to it necessarily but do you know how far we are in mapping the cannabis genome as far as are we able to tell real genetic relation as far as like s1 variation and and parental lines father cousin sister is that even something in cannabis that you could do yeah you can do it i can't go and like seek that information out it's one of the weird things with the phyllis with phyllis is going on you know they were doing the round around trying to get samples and they obviously approached me at one point in time i was like not interested yeah but what i will do is i said hey i've got all these self-populations why don't i help why don't we look at like 50 individuals from the self-population and then explore the variation so then now i've got like we've we've shown hey here's like the parental clone here's the heterozygosity by sequencing yeah growing a hundred offspring of the selves do the same thing they didn't want to do that shit yeah um it seemed like that was the most like what people went to phyllis for was that information more so than anything else they were just weird they had a because the pitch was great it was like collect your star on the galaxy yeah right like and it was like it's kind of like that whole like we can show you your name it'll be up in lights yeah you know like it's fucking nonsense but that's it people fall in fall for that show right yeah so um when we when i don't mean we but i mean when humanity first did the human genome project it was like oh my god we're going to know everything we've got the whole genomes and that would be able to treat disease and it's like wait a second it's like you've got one white guy yeah right like do you think that that encompasses the genetic variation that exists in like the jewish or the or the african or the african population or like the north african population in south africa or like asia versus you know like wherever right and so the next evolution that came out of that was called the thousand genomes project right and it's like once you got a thousand genomes now you can start looking at all the different genes and seeing okay here's kind of like a catalog of the in of the genomic variation that exists in the species or like at least it gives us a look at hey there's way more variation right and so we're not at the point with cannabis yeah so there are you know folks like medicinal genomics and some other groups i think medicinal genomics probably have like i would say they've been doing it a lot i think they've been doing it like more or less the longest and they so they've started to get like yeah you can go in and you're one of their clients and you paid out your checklist you can compare you know your snips versus other essentially snips or genetics misspelling is in a word right yeah you can and because these things are repeated over time if you have a like a genetic misspelling that happens in skunk and then you cross it in the scum northern lights in skunk haze skunk haze any like you have a probability of finding that misspelling in all of those different lines right yeah so over time you can use those to build like a family tree um but what we haven't really done a good job of at this point yet is saying this small genetic change results in x so like we've got a bunch of dna letters and we can see a variation of these dna letters but it's like okay what does that correlate to in a plant we don't know yeah right and that's the hard work is correlating the phenotypic data with the genetic data that makes sense and that is going to take time yeah that's got to be years away yeah but it's gonna it's always going to be an ongoing process right yeah and with corn they've done it they've got a pretty good job of it now and like listen we've got like we've got what's called an annotated genome which means you can look up hey you want to look up like the fatty acid de-saturated gene that is involved in like you know plant cells what happens when plants get really cold they need oil content and the cell membranes and there's a gene involved in that right so yeah like I can look up that gene and actually now go and find out exactly where it is mechanical because they've said hey this small suction of the the chromosome matches up with this gene and all of the plants this is the gene that does this in cancer right so but like again it's like you know that that gene that segment of the next thing that's there do we know what every variant that exists for that gene and the result of those variants are no we don't know that very interesting so we're starting to build that knowledge like one of the things you know mcernan medicinal genomics mcernan's no dummy you know he looked at he was like oh we're going to start looking at the cannabinoid synthase genes like that's going to be one of the first things so you know they sequence all genome but the first thing that they do they take the microscope that's not a microscope or a magnifying glass but it's an analogy you take the magnifying glass and go and you look at that region of the genome that has those genes involved in cannabinoid production hey this one's got a break in the gene or this one has two copies of the gene right and so they they're starting to tease it apart for like some of the major genes of interest yeah but because they don't grow plants and they don't do those correlational studies between genetic data and phenotypes they can't generate that kind of data yeah right it was it was slow build it was interesting going back and forth with phyloce at the very end before they shut their doors and giving them known parents and the known children cuts and watching them come back and say there is no relation it was really interesting watching that and they they put their their whole reputation on the line to do it on top of that well it makes you wonder what's going on because i mean you know they are so it's like did they fuck up the sample lab are they not just not running them and taking your money and telling you right like that could be too right you have no way of knowing you have no way of knowing and and when we pointed it out they shut the doors so i guess i i don't know i i'd like to see how long their data stays up online their data sets because knowing that i i would think that if the more that gets out the more likely people are to start asking questions i i had like listen when they first started coming out with the things i talked to you know i was they offered me a job at one point in time yeah when i left napro came back to Canada they were like more come work for less napro and just are at phyloce and you know just give us give me like two of your cbg seeds yeah no i was you know i the legalization was happening in Canada i was over living out of freaking hotels in the skates yeah and uh i just i didn't i didn't value it i didn't i there was too many red flags yeah right and um so like the way that they were going at collecting their data was wrong right and just because of you know not who i am but because of like the position i was in with knowing a lot of people on the internet yeah yeah and having access to like you know all the known stuff i was like guys like i'll just get you all the shit yeah and then it's verified cuts and you know when you're doing a kam tonic that came from the guy that read kam tonic right like yeah yeah exactly you know and they were like well we don't want to do that they didn't want real legacy you know we got that's like well why not that's like oh you want to take people's money to give them an answer right because they were running tests their cost was 30 a hundred bucks or whatever it was and they're charging people hundreds of dollars right so yeah they're just turning them burn it um and in the meantime they're learning all this stuff because they see everybody's samples or like the guy that faced the test you only see your sample right yeah you understand your genetic data to whatever degree it let you can say oh look there's my star on the galaxy yeah right it's kind of like buying an anchor on the moon right yeah like you can see with the telescope because it's like fucking useless right like it doesn't yeah dude um so but anyway you know anyway it's one of those things where it's like i don't know your soft red tom Sawyer but it's like there's a point in time he has to paint white wash the stupid that's and everybody's like yeah yeah hey tom can i give you my like apple if you let me wipe wash some of your friends that's kind of what phylos was doing with the cannabis industry right everybody was lining up like suckers to be i remember it all turned like because of i did that breeding work from napro then there was the patent that came from it like a lot of people i'll dent out of shape and it was like you're fucking phylos you're working with phylos and patenting all the stuff and i was like wait a second all you dumbasses fell into the fucking phylos trap you actively paid to give away your fucking information to some big genetics company and you're pissed off at me yeah you mad at me like you fell into the trap dude right um so i don't know the cannabis you know community is funny with that stuff because it's like you know like the patents already freaked out about the patents and now i think everybody wants a patent right yeah there's absolutely everyone yeah and like i think if you truly bred something and you created something new then you can get intellectual property protection by way of a patent like a plant patent in the states fucking get on with your bad self now now why not now it's got to now it's got to the point of where you almost have to if you want to stay competitive because the legal market's coming and if you don't patent it someone else will it just it's gonna happen well they can't nobody can so somebody can't come along to patent your shit um they can patent something that is the same as your ship if you didn't get to it in time yeah sure right but yeah really like what a patent business saying hey this this is the unique thing that i developed was mine and yeah this gives you a stamp that says hey that you actually developed that because you have to demonstrate how you made it okay you have to like you have to say to me why cross this and this we could be selecting the whole thing like the whole description do you have to have actual proof that you crossed xyz and the proof of all this like video like do you know how it works it has to stand up in court right because it can be challenged at any point in time so if you don't do a good enough job like you might get it passed the usp to you met you might get it passed the patent examiner and he says yeah this thing appears whatever but if somebody comes along and challenges it later and they can demonstrate later that that hey you didn't document well enough and there's these things that call what you said into question that's up in front of the judge yeah who's going to make a ruling on whether you actually the patent is valid a patent is a claim right doesn't mean that you can't fit it's a claim that you own something right whether you really own it is a matter for the courts yeah right and so like any patent can be challenged um and so if you're going to go through a patent and all the effort and expense of getting a patent for something that you've created you should probably do a good job of describing every thing like all your home every last step yeah because you want to lay out the whole story so to sum because the story is what gets published in the patent somebody comes along and says yeah this doesn't make sense in your story that's ground for a challenge yeah and so that's why when you see like you know i'm not talking about plant patents but if you read some of these patents on like genes you know it's like or for example in a chemo type so it'll be like we're patenting every plant in terpenaline dominance with type 3 or type 2 you know cannabinoid profile meaning cvd and cvg and that means everything from 1 percent 2 percent 3 percent 4 percent 5 percent 6 yeah and you'll literally see that fucking list out like you know one through 40 right yeah for clarity that they say this patent claims every plant that is 1 percent 2 percent 3 percent 4 percent yeah and it's like you document it as tightly controlled as possible and the idea for that patent attorney's do is like you want to write patents that are defensible in the future so yeah you try to close every loophole that you can think of right and is in patents are different than trademarks i know archived right at trademarks yeah trademarks or something there's this a trick yeah trademark is how you sell a product okay okay look when we start talking about intellectual property on plants it's it whoever the person is watching this in the world like if you're in europe or you're in canada or you're in the united states or you're in china totally different okay yeah there's something in in the this there's a system that is like accepted all over the world called um upov and upov is essentially the union for the protection of plant varieties and and they're the guys that created this overarching system that said these are the ways that we evaluate to see who owns or develops a new plant variety yeah but it's an international treaty made by an international organization all the countries come together most of the countries in the world come together and have signed this treaty but like for example you know call it like new zealand say they signed on in like the 1970 4 edition of the treaty and the united states signed on in like a later version call it 1991 right yeah made up numbers and dates sure you're only beholden to the version of the treaty to which you signed yeah okay so and then you sign the treaty all these like for example they go home you know so there's this international treaty the united states signs on the international trade we're gonna be part of this thing now they go back to the united states and they write a set of legislation that backs up the treaty yeah well that legislation is totally unique to united states yeah right like you follow the overarching principles of the the umbrella organization that top level org but really every country is a silo with their own system yeah and so patent plant patents per se only exist in the united states in australia okay like that makes sense there's one such thing as a patent plant plant patent in canada or your yeah we use breeder's rights the breeder's rights system that's everything by upav one of the major differences between those two is that a patent you don't have to disclose or make available so for example when we talk about international registration of plant varieties for plant cultivars what that does is so so i develop whatever call it like a blueberry sweet that's called a blueberry sweet scum plant i find a blueberry sweet scum plant is totally different yeah i register it i declare the parents i do the whole spiel yeah but he says okay ryan this plant is yours we recognize that you're the developer of this plant this one plant that you selected out of this population we're going to give you a cultivar registration recognition so it's a registered cultivar what you get out of that is the right you don't get the plant yeah so it's like now that plant that i have that i that anybody that wants to grow that plant anywhere else in the world they can grow that plant but i get the royalties or you know like i have the rights to the royalties or whatever profits come from the development section of that plant what don't get to say is nobody else can use this plant in fact one of the conditions that you have to do is make your plant available to other readers oh interesting yeah and the reason is is like hey the reasoning from the top level org is hey we recognize that you develop that plant and it's special and it's awesome and it's unique and we're going to give you 17 years of economic exclusivity around that plant yeah plant genetic resources are not yours yeah the entire globe has the right everybody on the planet has the right to that plant for use in the betterment of all plants for humanity therefore the plant that you have the certification on we recognize it as yours but you have to share it with everybody off yeah right and so a lot of people can take my shit and breed it and improve it yeah if i have patent i don't have to give it up to anybody uh okay i got you right you can control who gets it right because it truly is your piece of property it's your you have ownership over that thing gotcha that makes that's that makes no sense it's kind of a weird like unique thing that happens in the states because you guys have these patents they're recognized in australia they're not recognized anywhere else in the world not even canada no that's funny yeah yeah so that's one form of patents there's other forms of patents like there's utility patents and there's all this other shit so but i think you know rather than doing a show on patents it's just good to recognize that that's kind of the way it is so yeah get it get yourself a plant you can also do cultivar and variety registrations in the united states i think with patents around why would you yeah right the thing about being in part of the international variety registration is that you you don't only have like for you if you're only growing in your clients we're only in the states fine doesn't matter get your patent in the states you're protected you you you're you're protected in the states take that plant to europe nobody recognizes your ip yeah so you know you might want if you're going to be doing business internationally you might want to get a form of intellectual property protection that is recognized internationally so we got a question for you i want to hear kai mirah talk about kaitizan jasmonic acid and salicylic acid is this something that you know a lot about i know i mean i know a little bit about it i'm not like a plant physiology guy and i have that stuff on the top of my on the top of my head i mean they're they're signaling chemicals right yeah kaitizan kaitizan is not kaitizan doesn't matter it's like what's that's the molecule that's in uh the shells of crustaceans right yeah from there's some evidence that it does stuff and plant but that's not my area of specialty um so i want to talk to you about what is kai mirah excited about genetically that's around right now something you're working on or something that maybe you saw recently that you're really stoked on that's not it might listen i i get off on the variations i like new stuff i like i like i like what our understanding grows right so it's like yeah can use it because for me in genetics it's like i you know we talked about a little bit with with kailabon the shango show the other day but yeah like when you're selfing a plant it's not just about looking for the population and saying hey oh this plant's great because of whatever i want to understand all the traits in the plant and how they're inherited right and how it's pretty it's kind of like being able to take a part machine once you can take it apart and put it back together then you can reassemble it in new ways yes right and so that's really what you know like when for example the file story came out right the the skill content yeah yeah super interesting i want to now be able to go into a reading program take a plant with files self it and see how does the like what happens in the distribution of that file expression in the offspring yeah right because when you analyze that then you can kind of get to understand then you can develop a hypothesis about how that trade is inherited yeah once now how that trade is inherited then you can bring it into any other briefing program sure right so that's like kind of what i know i'm probably going to tell right now i mean like yeah yeah that's the kind of stuff that i like so you know i don't really like there's i have favorites but you know when i look at cannabis i don't really look at it in that almost call it like a prejudicial way where we're segregating plants on quality and i only like one type you know what i mean like i've got my favorite dogs but for cannabis i see the very i see the inherent value in all yeah right that makes sense funky like reed or ala stuff with the otter flowering i mean that was like i collect that stuff you know yeah like when i'm in marocco when i was in marocco i found these plants that are there's a there's a hemp variety called panorama and essentially that the plant grows like a globe so like all the branches are completely equal so it makes like this round bush oh wow right and this hemp reader named even bush good years ago he developed a variety of it for um like as an ornamental variety it was like it was at the time it was the only ornamental cannabis variety that had been bred yeah and he thought oh yeah people planted their garden yeah with these little weird globe balls um anyway i found a plant like that in marocco and i was like fuck you want to take some seeds out of that sucker and take it home yeah right it's an oddity yeah it's an oddity it's not in the current cannabis massive gene pool as far as what's being worked with you never noticed an opera it's different like i like to dip right like i really do get off on the variation that you see in the species yeah um because i don't think anybody's done a very good job at like characterizing the variation that exists on any given set of trades right well we're at napro we did we started doing a pretty good job on terps and then once we you know what we did terps at first and then we were like you know you end up with a plant that has the same terpene terpene profile and you got two plants that are identical or that that's that look identical by lab report but you smell them they're totally different you're like okay this is clearly not the whole story we need to look at other chemicals so that you pull out the gcms and you start looking for regions between your peaks that's like what else is in there that we're like just driving over right we're looking in the analysis and then you start looking at that and then you find oh there's other scent molecules that are involved in other molecules with scent that are involved in our perception perception to smell because again it's like i've used this analogy before but it's like it's kind of like going to the orchestra and then and then turns into the guy that's never heard orchestra music and saying hey do you hear the oboe yeah right it's like yeah yeah he perceives that in the overall sound of what he's perceiving is the sound of the orchestra but he hasn't trained himself to be able to like identify that one note right yeah um and scent is an orchestra yeah it is molecules right and when we smell those molecules we get them all at once that we perceive it as one thing but really it's one thing it's like it's kind of like looking at the Mona Lisa like you can say yeah it's one painting well yeah it's one painting but it's like look at all the intricacy that exists in it right all the brush details yeah yeah and that's really the difference between that's what happens when you you know i did i missed the thing last night but i imagine it's the kind of stuff that you guys were talking about last night right yeah we went through his kit and i i i went through and smelled each individual one like the terpenes they're all in different percentages and whatnot but yeah it was fascinating there there were certain ones that i was smelling like limonene and a few others that i just it totally wasn't what i thought it would be like like oranges doesn't it's like yeah yeah there's there's a few different limonenes in there but yeah it was it was wild man he he wants to send you one of the full kits too if you ever want it cool i'll check it out for sure yeah um he he wanted to know cry baby i'm curious how soma clonal variants fit into the whole plant patents or whole patent sphere soma clonal variants okay so soma clonal variation is like let's call it it's usually referred to as the genetic variation that comes out of tissue culture but you can yeah really some a somatic cell is like any cell in your body that is not destined to become like sperm or egg okay right so like yeah uh-oh audio cut for a second oh we dropped sorry there we go you're good arms is going to keep going off um so soma clonal variation is like the variation that exists as a result of the plant growing so like the somatic cell is like any cell in your body like i was saying that doesn't become a germline cell that doesn't become again it's not going to become a gamete yeah okay in plants we talk about it from what we see the variation that exists when plants come out of tissue culture like there's a variant that we recognize as a phenotypic variant which we're noticing a change in morphology yeah um probably what's happened is the hormones that we've been using in the tissue culture processes have caused a genetic mutation that is the result of that variation right so i guess i'm just trying to like repurpose the question to say like what's the degree of natural variation that exists in a cannabis plant right yeah there was a paper that was just done on this and i think there were some flaws in the paper but they they actually sequenced all these different plates like they took samples from a big mother plant called like you know it was like five or six feet tall it was actually not in the health condition which you know it was like i was like maybe that should have been documented in the study but bottom line is they took a whole bunch of genetic samples of different shoot tips bottom the plant top the plant medium middle part of the plant and lo and behold there's all this genetic mutation that exists even with just a mother plant forget tissue culture just within a mother plant now whether that is a factor of them doing a bad analysis or not let's forget that and just assume that it happens okay plants and we've seen this in trees mutations happen as plants grow right so if you got like a plant that throws off two shoots right so this is the main thing here you got two shoots coming out here when this guy has a mutation every cell that develops from that cell with a mutation is going to carry that mutation yeah right and so we've not literally got two branches on a tree that are going off in different ways but have different genotypes if that genotype happens in a gene if that mutation happens in a gene that's important you know an important trait for cannabis that could lead to like a change in the plant yeah right and so I don't know you're probably hardly out like someone's asking like a sport that's that is a sport but a sport is like a shoot of the mutation right and so for example i was just going to mention like every maybe people have heard about like pinot pinot noir is a great variety has been around for hundreds of years we actually have these new grapes that are called pinot noir or pinot blanc which means pinot white and pinot pinot gris pinot gris is actually kind of a pinky grape pinky it's actually a sport that they found on like somebody was walking through a vineyard of pinot noir and noticed that one branch on a plant had gray grapes not purple grapes like there is a mutation that happened yeah in the color gene right and maybe some other genes as well but the point is you boom you snip off that that sport or that cutting that plant is actually different enough from the registered pinot margarite that you can actually take pinot that new short the the new sport pinot gris or pinot blanc and and well maybe not patented but you can register it for life I don't know yeah patterns is a little bit different because the way they analyze the way they they kind of characterize them is a little bit different okay um but yeah it's it's like you know when you do your plant registration it's like oh yeah the grapes are purple while like you go back and it's like you got this one the grapes are purple it's obviously not the same variety yeah right or the same cultivar so you can be named as a new cultivar so um yeah truth is like these things happen they happen in plants the degree to which they happen in cannabis so I'm sure we know that they know we know that it happens I think the degree to which we know that it happens is probably still up in the air yeah so I don't know if that answered the question but uh maybe there's a little context for it yeah that's interesting um can you talk about and now we're going to to some of your strains that you've done in the past can you talk about what my favorite strain I know we've probably gone over it before but since this is a new episode mental floss like that that was one that touched me I'm a I'm a four for purples and it was one of it was made during an era where purples were pretty obscure at the time like the the purple craze had gone not many people were breeding with purples but mental floss always had this beautiful purple senescence during flower yeah can you talk about a little bit when it turns at the end it's a beautiful one like when it does one of those things I guess it's got a bunch of carotenoids in it the carotenoids like when you look at for example I don't know you you probably don't have maple trees down where you are you might have seen them in the fall they go from like green and then when the green the plant you know when the plant's going in the fall and they're about to shed their leaves they pull as much resources back out of the leaves into the trunk yeah right so they can save those those building blocks for next year and what's left of what happens is so the plants go the leaves go from green either red or yellow the reason they're red or yellow is because they've got um molecules in the leaf called carotenoids and carotenoids just comes from that yellow orangey pigment color that's why they're called that like kind of like curious right but those carotenoids kind of hide behind the chlorophyll and so with mental floss again when you when you give it a good flush at the end yeah and the plant you know candleizes all that that chlorophyll you end up with these beautiful kind of rainbow yellow and purple leaves in the back that plant is also like it makes some of my favorite hash of any cannabis that i've ever come across um super flavorful it's strong it melts like fucking hell when you uh someone's saying fuck carrots yeah fuck carrots um when you when you it melts like crazy and it's also very up like i would smoke that stuff thinking i'm gonna have another puff and go to bed and you know i got to pee or two hours later type it away you know yeah yeah like it just it gets you going and it yields like a motherfucker so it's like it's just a great plan right uh where did you source your uh stuff for the incense haze that the incense haze one of the parents of sweets because the other one is a seed that came from this dude in new york state that or but said he got out of the piff yeah um i don't know if it is or not his his name is frank so i call it frank's incense haze yeah right because it really smelled like incense um when you grew it like it was the reason i paired that one with the sweet skunk is because the two trip like very often not very often not very often you'll come across two plants that are so close to each other they could be the same plant yeah um and so sweet skunk and this plant were like in almost every sense identical to the part where like you'd walk into a room like you like when you got when you know if you have plants for like 10 15 years in your room yeah you get to learn like a little idiosyncrasy idiosyncrasy with the leaves and the way that like you know the way that the leaves come off the main front or the serration pattern or whatever it is yeah you get to know them like a parent can identify twins right yeah one of the twin and so it's the same thing like um and these plants would get confused right the people would yeah all the time because they're so close together um anyway yeah it was so when those two came together so i did you think i was self in the sweet skunk because i wanted to understand the inheritance pattern to some of the the rare volatiles that are in it and the cell although it's pure it's a little bit smaller you got a wider range of like because it's expressing all the all the the hidden variation that exists within the one you know right are those that self population but when i cross those two sister plants together when i when i do a um when i do cross using a reversal always hit the plant to itself because usually you're trying to get that pure line but i'm still always well the pollen's flying i will just make a bunch of other crosses at the same time yeah so it's you have them so it's like when you're going down a program it's like oh hey i lost a trade or this line doesn't have a trade that i want you go back to the line with the trade you've already got the hybrid that's 50 within the line you're working right so some guy did um but anyway so when you cross those two things together this the incense haze which was the simply irresistible i mean did they came out much bigger and better um and very consistent to type you know um so it kind of was the best of both worlds so when people ask me it's like you know when they're when they're sniffing around that thing i always say hey get both of them you know get the self for breeding so you got the pure stock it's a little more homozygous or a greater chance of being homozygous but yeah the hybrid performs the other one right in terms of like a grower's performance right oh sure you know it really depends on what what the customer is looking for i want to have time i really like to take my time to do a like a proper consult with someone because i'll be like hey somebody grew this stuff they have a lemon flask it's great i want to grow it and it's like what are you doing it for like what are you using it for right because i don't want you to buy the seeds that you think you want i want you to have the seeds that are going to be the best for what you're doing right yeah so yeah is there a strain that you can think of that you have have been looking for for many years or strain you'd like to encounter from the past that you have it i mean yeah again we had a straight discussion i think it would in terms of plants right like are there rare phenotypes that i've seen in the class that i don't that i'd love to see again sure i mean of course it's kind of one of those things that it's like if it comes by and passes with like grabbing a copy and then solving it like it may be gone to the wind yeah right so you got to recognize that it is but you know you're always looking for those things in the future we just i had a plant when i was relatively young and it was called luskini sweety there's an island off of uh texata bridge columbia and the straight there called luskini and it's no power it's essentially a hippie commune and you know they grow a lot of dope up there um yeah and they this one like it was before i had every i'd never even heard the island at that point in time i was quite young living on the other side of the country and a friend of mine a friend of mine so that's what we think of breeder steve yeah your questions are funny dude um anyway this this flower ended up at the end it was amazing it was like incredibly electric super strong really up and unfortunately other than the name luskini sweety i i never knew anything you know yeah i never knew what it was so it's like yeah for sure i'd love to come across those things um but it's like the beautiful girl that you dated in high school you might not find another one like it so marry her while you can yeah yeah okay well we need to get your genetics here in the states you know i know there's a lot of people who really want to grab time here is stuff is there anywhere available in the states right now that people i can't i can't sell i'm of the states unfortunately oh there is that it's difficult like i said when i work down there part of you know becoming a landed immigrant is that with your fingerprint scan or so it's like me me sending seeds into the states ain't really a great idea yeah it's probably probably not but yeah maybe someone can um work on doing some chimera genetics out here that'd be cool yeah yeah in the states retail is going to come up and get going again but they're a uk bank good so it's you know with them having done brexit it's a like it's a bit of a shit show right yeah not this it's not as easy to business out of the uk was but it's perfectly legal for us to do yeah so people that want to do that can you know get contacted me and we can hook you up to the uk um but unfortunately the way the laws are and with that whole fingerprint and having worked for the man thing it's like yeah yeah that always yeah that's where we're at um try maybe made a comment on your limoncello he said i thought the limoncello was very consistent and was an excellent breeder i know he's done some stuff with the two yeah that's right that's the that's the sweet himself it is pretty consistent smell wise there's a little bit of variation i find still in like in morphology you grow enough plants of the flower morphology and so that's just what i meant from that context like the smoking they're more less the same but they're very close they're within that type um yeah but you know i wouldn't lay down if i was going to grow an indoor set of tables i wouldn't lay down seed from those because there's just if you're trying to sell the flower there's a little for me there's a little bit too much inconsistency yeah yeah well is there anything else you want to cover before we uh rock it out seed sand have some bc locals up with seeds all of these new egenics need to suck hey man there's seeds are available yeah seeds are there everybody listen everybody's you know what it's like everybody's going from the cali stuff all right the cali cali world owned the world it you know spain on the world's 10 years ago bc owned the world 10 years before that it'll vary it'll move around morning yeah the work right they're doing the work down there's a lot of people they're growing seeds um yeah and listen that's the only way that we're going to come up with new better canvas keep growing seeds just fucking keep growing seeds as much as it's peeling and you have to grow clones for your business model you know just yeah seeds because if you don't grow these we're never going to find anything new and we're always going to be stuck with the same shit that we had five years ago it's how it goes yeah yeah right and listen sometimes the stuff from my you know it's like i i see i say i call it cannabis fashion right it's like i like to i like to hold on the old cuts because it's like they go out of favor but you bring them back like five ten years later and people are like i love that shit you know yeah like dude it's the mini skirt or the bell bottoms like they keep it back right so yeah i never thought i'd see skunk one make a comeback and it did you know a few years ago like what the fuck for the wild man i'm laughing at the skunk one if somebody actually asked me to sit in and help use genetics to help referee for this stuff because it's like you got like five guys in california that were like i've got the original skunk one that's like oh you do do you yeah do you remember sam you remember days there though you know okay well and you don't have the original yeah right it's like it's funny again it's that whole ego thing that like people want to get together and you know and be like hey i got the original i'm the man right yeah like you know don't fucking wonderful don't it's an interesting plan but it's one of those things like you know it was one of the first right the first yeah retrieving lines and they started selling them holland and then every proceed company was like well the skunk's selling we got to sell the skunk yes so it's like then dutch passion's got it and sensei's got a copy of it and then everybody's got a copy of it every fucking seed bank in the world more or less has a copy of it are they all original how much are they any like you know it'd be really interesting to have like an acre and have all of them grow them all side by side just see what they're like they're probably not they're probably like not even you know they're probably not even a leg yeah i'm sure they're not and this dude that bought the seeds back in like you know 96 or whatever when he got them but you probably didn't get them from the original guy right yeah probably not is your stuff original yeah it's just it's a funny it's a funny thing i i was actually quite abused to see one of the most spread around seed varieties that existed in the last 50 years have a bunch of new people pop up and be like you know i've got the original like yeah and then and throw down big dollars even though it's never been gone you know yeah it's always available and what like what is the original like yeah right like the original was a seed it was a named population it wasn't like you know it's not like today it's like oh g kush or cookies or fucking runs or like these start as cuttings right it always makes me laugh it's like you know for example blue dream a blue dream came around it was it was one cut right more or less like they're ended up being a couple that were very similar but there was one cut and then people would come along and be like i got this blue dream Santa Cruz blue dream thing and then they'll like spank white widow on it or some og or whatever some random poll yeah and then they sell the seeds as blue dream blue dream and now people grow those seeds in a different market where they don't know what the original blue dream is they pick a mom they say it's blue dream and now you've got two plants that are being passed around the world as if they're both the original and one of them is not even the same chemical profile as the blue dream yeah not even close most like you yeah so crybabies asking how much the ancestral skunk to begin to see a fair amount like we grow a chunk it's it's interesting i mean there's some stuff in there the ancestral people i don't know what people know about the ancestral skunk yeah talk about it those were those were seeds that day when dave was moving over to holland in like early 80s he brought obviously a bunch of stuff over he brought like a case of seeds over and you know did various things with them and didn't work with them in various things he met a hemp researcher that that knew he met a hemp researcher that was essentially like he was it he was in a european country i'm not going to say which one but he was the he grew like he was known as the hemp guy right like the red hemp their their country sold hemp seed around the world and when when the police would like they'd come across a cannabis bust they'd go and get him and bring him to the site and be like is this drug cannabis or not is this hemp yeah right yeah i know black black um and um sorry someone's asking that question that's all right and uh anyway sam arranged for this guy to grow on his research field a hector of skunk yeah and and open populated so essentially like you know sam brought those seeds over and they all went in the greenhouse and so they did various things things with them yeah had a big bunch of the skunk left enough to plant like a hector and so they took them to this european company country and planted him hector in isolation and he and rob went through the uh what field and robed all the males and the off types and the the females that were not skunk like yeah but the rest of it just got like an open pocket open pollinated that is what the ancestral skunk is okay okay so it's like it's the closest thing a population could be to what was produced in california yes all the other families that came out of that population were like you know they were family line somebody went in and found two plants and they crossed them together yeah so what came out of that from those one-to-one cross is not the same as what was preserved in the overall open population right so that's what the that's what the skunk was as i said sam i was like there's all these people are you know crying and and whatever about having access to the skunk what's up on instagram um let's give them access to this so we did right and that and they have they got a low germination rate i mean they germinate yeah like that like 25 percent or maybe even a little bit less now i haven't tested them recently well they're pretty old right yeah i mean they must have been reproduced like 30 25 30 years ago yeah that's wild today pop a couple years ago sam was looking at selling his collection and i actually helped him recaddle on the entire thing and so we got to go you know we went through everything and we did a whole bunch of germination tasks and we pulled stuff out that was like 25 year old seed that had been stored as like you know four degrees celsius for 20 plus years 25 years and some of it germinated at like 80 90 percent oh so seeds if they're stored properly inconsistently they can last a long time and it's like i got i got a kind of those blueberry seeds still left from from the d-day projects and people like yeah they're all seeds but dude i can pull fucking the grapefruit sweet skunk out and pop can of them and i'll can of them yeah right like doesn't matter how long the fucking seed is if it germinates right yeah that's why obviously some people think differently but was there any skunk too in that population of uh stuff that he had saved skunk too wasn't from sam oh wasn't no you know where's that from i don't know somebody else came along and made it up i don't think he ever produced one called skunk too he um i remember there was some kind of quote somewhere about him talking about how skunk too was the the skunkier version he didn't work the skunkier version that's the thing he was like i don't like it i'm watching it with that one yeah yeah all right so i wonder where i read that i'll have to go back and look there's a lot of stuff that gets attributed to sam i mean it's like again all thing about him in b a like all this shit is attributed to him this is not even true there's little specks of like roots of truth yeah somebody took and blew up into this big weird story and and you know misinterpret this um it's because he's mr mystery i think you know like he's an enigma you're not wrong it doesn't help but again like i think after like i think if you were treated way to ease been treated in the ganas community look i mean it's like the same thing that happened with me and the my braining for that work that ended up being patented like that really fucking turns on you yeah right um and you know people like i said everywhere everywhere he went it was like the you know the whole dutch scene the reason that people started calling him dda was that he was able to come into a country that wasn't his he's not a fucking dutch he went to holland and as an american expat and was able to was able to get um now i didn't say rooting hormone i said hormones for plant tissue culture so rooting hormone's not the same um some of the the shit that they use for plant tissue culture can cause mutations but but yeah um but anyway sam was able to go into holland set up a business get a license to grow cannabis from the government nobody else could do it yeah and so of course all the dutch dudes were fucking choked right they were like how is this not this isn't fair this guy's got all this shit right i was absolutely you must have some context that we don't have what the fuck like the dda is an american organization why the hell would the dda go to the government of a different country and say hey you gotta let this american grow weed in your country that doesn't look any fucking sense like that's a poop and fucking the sub shit right but like that's the story that some dutch reporter guy came up with and he used to have a written cannabis radio show and he started them all over the airwaves and now it's fucking true for half the world right wow is that where it came from is that where all this started yeah well it started as a rumor but that's when it like got popularized yeah never ever meet and scot at one point in time shanti baba and he was like oh yeah dav was blah blah blah and i was like dude you've been fucking fed uh you you've been saying shit i was by never lies by fucking neville and all these other guys right that were jealous and haters right neville i mean neville told me directly that he knew sam's dea handler everybody knew his handler you not fucking know what you're talking about you just spent a nonsense when he came in late like i'm just gonna ignore your fucking questions so let's move on um yeah like whatever dude like yeah it's it's it's just told it is fact that's like people want to fucking question me without even knowing like an iota of the fucking truth yeah bro but didn't you know it was going to be permanent i actually didn't i was fucking making medicine for patients dumbass okay that's what i was doing that's what my intentions are the fucking company that i was working with at the time that i was employed by that were allowing me to fucking like have my dream cannabis job and build a fucking multi-million dollar laboratory plan right like yeah it's a job but it's also a job that i wanted to do one of the consequences that these guys came out and patented a bunch of uh a class of plants that didn't exist before i made them yeah so it's like how the hell people like you can complain is ridiculous like you obviously have no idea what you're talking about and are spouting an opinion of like from a place of complete ignorance so like yeah i do have to laugh and the reason i'm emotional about it i'm clearly irritated is because i fucking got death threats from people like you yeah i know right yeah i went after you i went after you you went after me i did yeah yeah i didn't have the full i didn't have the full picture and and no one did and that's that's the problem you know no no one had the full picture we just went off of uh oh my god patent this guy's fucking with the man and listen our our community was bred to believe that right yeah yeah it'd be very conspiratorial they're bad like dude i knew research scientists that worked at gw pharmaceuticals like doing petri dish work and experiments design and like these guys would have the same experiences that you and i would have taken care of mary's nephew with epilepsy down the street right they would have personal relationships with like these kids that couldn't get access to cannabis and they would come in and because of gw pharmaceuticals that was doing the work with cannabis they were allowed they were able to get access to the medicines they needed to change their life right so i like big pharma or not i can't fucking have i don't have a problem with that like if you're helping people in like a context again they're operating in a context of prohibition where like these medicines can't get to the people i made a post today about marinol right yeah somebody's chirping me about marinol like oh no it's made by an laboratory dude a molecule as a molecule as a molecule like if you're fucking starving for water you don't care whether that water was made from like burning fossil fuels or mixing hydrogen uh and oxygen in a laboratory or purifying it out of fucking shit sewer water like once it comes out at the end and it's pure fucking water it's water right so it's the same with thc and it's the same with cbd right like yeah if those medicines can go to someone that can benefit from those medicines that they couldn't access otherwise why the hell do you have a problem with it right like i don't get it right and i know that it comes because they're not in a place where it's like you feel like oh the government's not letting you you you do your art and and grow the crop that you want to grow you know what the result is dude go change the laws and like we've been fighting for that hard for fucking 30 40 plus years right but i've been involved for 30 years right and um i founded a political party in canada i was a farning member of the the the federal marijuana party in canada right i didn't know that that's pretty cool like to effectuate change so it's like i get that you're pissed off and you're scared of big pharma but you have to fucking direct that anger in a channel that's going to change things not just sit there and bitch about big business because it's boring right it's like it's boring and big business is going to happen whether we like it or not we're seeing that in the cannabis world regardless it's going to happen it happens i want to change cannabis in the few years that i have left on this fucking floating rock okay yeah so if you think i'm not going to take a job where someone pays me a decent salary and gives me like a multi-million dollar budget to fucking grow and make class that the world has never seen before yeah i'm gonna do it okay yeah you don't like it too fucking bad yeah i like seeing the passionate side yeah i can i mean i get offended by it right because it's like well yeah of course you have people that don't know what the hell they're talking about and it's like they're spouting that off as if their ignorant perspective is like like one valuable but like two supremely valuable like they think that they're righteous like dude yeah go look up the Dunning-Kruger effect okay yeah yeah you know a little bit you know a little bit and think that you know everything right probably learning a lot and then think that you know you know anyway whatever there's too much of that in the cannabis industry and you know i'm all up for raising everybody up i would love to and that's why we do these things we share perspective and we teach people because we want you all to be better so that you all can go and raise the fucking game and when we all raise the game the cannabis is better the products are better the products are safer and we're all dabbing out on the dankest fucking shit right like that's what exactly that's why i i i i find it a an honor when anybody anybody uses my stuff because it means that it was good enough in their eyes to take forward and make better and and the resulting factor that is if they make something better than i made i don't let that intimidate me i want to go work with that like that's that's exciting they truly are making it better but the thing i don't like is when people like they actually hack apart your work and then they tell everybody it's better and then they sell it as whatever your strain is and then that's that i did today contact me like hey man i want like uh i'm interested in this kind of high and i'm looking at your uh highland mexican blueberry um and i like i want to buy a hundred seeds and it's like oh you want my hundred seeds i'm not excited because he's buying a hundred seeds and it's like yeah because he wants to pop a bunch i want him it's like it's like dude if you're gonna put in a hundred grow effort or a hundred seed effort into improving the line let me help you right yeah and it's like right i would guide this line and i would you know and i'm gonna throw in this line extra so that you've got it so that as you're in breeding this one you should put a little bit of this back into it so that you know you don't you don't stop re-inbreeding depression and if they've got yeah the same traits and it's got some nice flavor stuff so you know in the end you'll be you'll be able to build it better i love that i'm stoked on that right yes absolutely buying a five pack and then knocking off open pollination of five seeds to me because it's like you're not i went to a lot of work to create that population and now you've essentially put it through a bottle rack and you're selling it the same thing that's fucked up right like yeah so please do take my shit make it better like you make better i will support you if you take my yeah and you fucking knock it into crap then i'm not going to be happy yeah right like that's the way i feel about it it's like i look at them like my kids you know what i mean yeah of course you know you you want your babies to go off to good homes yeah um and have happy marriages and all that kind of shit so yeah i totally agree on that can you tell us a little bit about the highland mexican too since you just bought that up these were old seeds that came to me three rabbit legends actually someone shipped them to him and it was some old dude that was like yeah i i'm old i've been growing for years and years i collected these things in the 60s and 70s and i don't know you know i don't know what skin i don't i don't i don't i know i don't have the ability to do something with him can you please give him something to do and so we got from it i grew a whole bunch and found a really interesting plan yeah and i had one i was like i'm gonna take this one plant and put it in the flowering room and it was you know it was like a real equatorial right so yeah you put it in and you get to like a foot tall you're like oh this thing is gonna really stretch so you cut it down and make four or four shoots and yeah this thing dude it was like twice as tall and wide as any other plant in the room and it must have produced like i don't know isn't it we're in like the many thousands of fees like it was like you know probably i bet because the whole thing just like the whole it was these long you know the old kind of like long spear flowers that you'd see in the 70s not too thick but like really yeah long running it was like that just chocked full of seeds and uh it had a nice high effect it was like we weren't analyzing turrets back then but i remember i would say that it's probably like a limaning turpent or limaning piney plant which is oh interesting it's kind of rare in today's turpent for a while world yeah i think that's what was really associated with a lot of the old days and it's just nice but it was nice classic non like it was not popular but so when i released those dj joint projects yeah i put some of those out there and i don't think we sold a pack for like 18 months because they were like oh you know they wanted the grapefruit blueberry and the mental floss and all the the parts that were like getting yield and finally somebody decided to grow a couple of those like in an in an equatorial climate and ordered some of those and grew them and they were just i mean they're they have the the ugliest phenotype flower feed oh i'm sure yeah like long spindly weird like you know like buds that have like they look like they got like five or six fox tails covered out of just two calories stacked right and they'd look you would look like a finger it wouldn't look like a hand with a bunch of things i've never seen them yeah yeah and you can take them like just rip off calyx and essentially fold a paper around it right yeah right but there was a great nice effect in doing those crosses and actually in growing dj stuff like i don't i'm not i don't have proof that this is the way it is but it's definitely my very strong feeling is that all those introspective and like i don't say up but like cerebral kind of highs that you get from thc and this is largely from running all dj stuff through that really expensive lab that we built yeah like in population most of it's in the eight to twelve percent range yeah right it's not fucking 25 five yeah exactly low cannabinoid production or what we would call today low cannabinoid production plan but when you whack up 30 percent to like 28 25 28 30 percent thc you start to really get that stone kind of lethargic kind of dull effect like all the chain has been taken off of like a high and you just kind of feel it in your head and you're just like kind of whacked in stone that's yeah thc right yeah and if you take a marinal pill you actually feel the same way i bet right it kind of feels like somebody thought it went ahead with something you know like wow yeah um and you don't get that from those 12 percenters or those 10 percenters no you kind of get a nice floaty buzz but it's like it's enough that you're affected but you're just kind of in a different headspace and yeah i i clearheaded high well and for you know like the folks in rob's generation dave's generation that's i'm not saying rob and dave in particular but like people of that age that's what cannabis was when they were growing up and what they had access to right that was yeah he didn't come across like a cookie back in the 70s it didn't exist no no of course not so um you'd be but you'd be buzzed right but it's a different headspace and so that whole generation not that whole generation but the majority of that generation fell in love with that experience and then indica and 20 plus percent cannabis came along it was too much for them because it didn't do that same thing that they wanted yeah and i you know when someone was talking a little in the baskets full stuff with thga you're kind of right but it's like you know dj for example like you live with lsd right and so maybe the basket's not full with you don't want to fill the basket with thc because when you're putting lsd and thc in it together in moderate amounts like it's a more pleasant effect at least for him personally for him yeah this is all about perception so um it's just you know i it's an interesting thing because essentially what's happened now is that like the market would have 10 percent or a 12 percent flower good fucking luck yeah the market consumers retailers distributors are all gonna laugh at you yeah totally arguably there's a whole class of people out there that would like that oh for sure right for sure it's kind of like saying hey we're gonna have liquor stores we're only going to sell things that are like 25 and above percent alcohol i'll get through them all beer all wine all you know like coolers and all that kind of stuff that's a huge amount of like alcohol consumers or the people that like those products that may they don't want to sit down on the bottle of whiskey and like do shots or chugs or get exactly right so in a way we're doing the market of the service and we're doing consumers of the service what's up vessel um yeah so i don't know like i don't you know 20 people would go to 10 percent 12 percent bud this guy likes 12 percent bud what a pussy you know yeah hey man like not everybody's like you like some people want to drink like beer right yeah i don't like getting baked stoned at all i just don't i like to be able to if i have to react to something i want to be able to react as fast as possible you know what i mean at any point yeah yeah well when people are saying it's like you know not everybody wants that some people don't want older weed older people usually and it's true but maybe like you know we could teach people how to use cannabis in a way that some people might not want uh like even if you're a teenager right yeah and dude i've seen it with friends like i've seen them friends that like they start smoking a little bit of weed and they're like yeah it's fun and then they get into it and they start smoking more and they're fucking way too dry right and it doesn't like it impacts their life in a negative way yeah right so and so i want more people using cannabis if they got to smoke something that's like you know half cbd and half thc or even just most of cbd with a little bit of thc in it like you know five percent of thc i don't care like i think that we should make cannabis for all people um i do too markets when we've got the market that is this way it just it's not a good thing for the for it's not a good thing for consumers you know there there are scientific studies that show like mass consumption of thc for at least some people it's not a good thing yeah and so what do we say oh sorry you guys you don't get to just you just you're not allowed to benefit from this plan yeah doesn't make sense right it's like well hey how about i can make you something that does benefit i was like it's not a variety that i developed out of napro for the with the beta carotene and the cbdv right it was like i was like that plant had no recreational potential at all like it was no fun for anybody right but it was going to make a difference in some three-year-old's life right and his mom is not going to be able to like give him this shit and he's not going to have like 10 seasons today that felt really fucking good right being able to make that plant it felt really really really good like i can't tell you the way i can imagine i was more proud of that plant in a way than any high thc plant that i've ever made that like has like a thousand more people using it or yeah like 10,000 people smoking it right um so yeah i'm all about making all types of candidates for all types of people and uh just because it's the one that like the majority people doesn't like that doesn't mean that it's not an amazing thing right so we gotta we gotta make those plants right which is yeah somebody was saying about like oh we have to work for this company big bad company man i'm not trying to help fucking rich people get richer right i'm gonna fucking make medicines for patients or provide plants for for patients to change people's lives yeah you either get it or you don't right but that's the way i look at it and everybody's gonna you know people are gonna look at what i'm saying from another perspective and say maybe it's bullshit so whatever all i can tell you is my treat yeah well i just want to thank you because you know you guys like you red dj are all major major factors in in the path of my career as a seed maker and the few breedings i've done you know so thank you guys for for establishing that that path you know before me to try to try to push the boundaries with blueberry and and i still love your guys's stuff it still holds its own to today even with all the stuff around the market but i mean i grew some of that shit ever since everybody's good as a lot of the other stuff i could give a fuck about the market i mean especially right now i mean the seed markets crashed uh cannabis markets crashed like right now the people that are gonna stick through it or the people that were always gonna stick through it whether they were making money or not so i'm looking forward to that at least shaking out some of the fucking shit and that's about all the good that's going to come from it but well i gotta leave you with something that Dave said you know Dave Watson Sam says it's like we all scan the shoulders of giants right um all of us everybody that works with cannabis we all got those seeds from somewhere except for the cannabis so that's the difference yeah we we got to respect the people that we got things from and you know all all of us in our germ pleasant that we have in our hands it all came from somewhere right and sure maybe yeah maybe we refined it a little bit maybe we found some better plants and we propagated and changed around but all of us are beholden to the people that came before us absolutely absolutely well i want to thank you for stopping by thank you for eliminating us on uh the testing stuff i learned a lot myself like i that is something i've been very ignorant in is when it comes to testing and lab testing and stuff so i really appreciate your time and thank you and i can't have you back on my pleasure thanks for having me and and listen if there's more questions that we didn't answer about lab testing hit up matter hit up myself and we'll address it on ig or we'll do it again or yeah we'll do it again clutch it up so is there anything um you want to you want to say before we go like as far as to where to get your seeds for people in canada anything like that breeders retail unfortunately even canada is a shit show for seeds because the legalization so breeders retail if you want our seeds reach out to me and i'll hook you up with the breeders retail boys and we'll get you taken care of and uh yeah keep growing seeds support people like matt support the real ones in the industry you know we we got to eat too right yeah and it's like it's not like i'm choosing new leather for the Lamborghini you know and even like really like the seed industry is not what it was everybody in the seed business is uh is hurting in a way that i don't think people really understand so definitely support those dudes that you can someone's asking on cunning folk company i i sold them seeds they bought seeds for me so they're good folks good deal and the stock is all it's and let's throw a shout out to red because that guy's fucking amazing i love that you listen red is one of the realest fucking people i've ever met in my life he is 20 years and he is one of the most high integrity individuals that i've ever met in my life and he is absolutely a real one so uh yeah he's got a new project out of Victoria Bridge Columbia on the island and they got to grow there and so i think they're gonna hopefully they'll be doing some of your stuff yeah yeah and yeah we got some good things lined up for them so is anybody in the industry that's one of the good guys support them it's like you know we run businesses i i think sure there's some people driving Lamborghinis but the the truth is that the vast majority of us aren't and it's like we're you know we're just trying to get by like everybody else so definitely please grow seeds and support the people in the industry that you that you like their content and that you know you respect their ethic so and i gotta tell you one thing that's live it's like you know matt mentioned that uh we had a little bit of a falling out or a rough patch over the patent thing i respect matt you know we he came to me i explained to him my position on the whole thing and he recognized that you know he didn't have the story right and he's been like more than uh forthcoming about that and to me like that's all you can do like look we're humans we're gonna make mistakes everybody's gonna make mistakes recognizing the mistakes and coming and saying hey i did the wrong thing to me that means everything and he's a he's a bro for life because of it right so yeah same here man yeah so yeah well i i love having you man yeah thanks for having me absolute pleasure i'll talk to you soon and and thank you for stopping by yeah much love to your viewers you guys all have a good evening peace all right cheers guys