 Missing mother, Sandra Eckert is back in the news, and there's even a special about her on Paramount Plus, so we decided to revisit our take on what happened. So here we go. West says his mother recently passed away, and he and Sandra got in a fight over his mother's will. Sandra threatened to leave. She comes down with a coat on and says, the last thing she said is you'll hear from my lawyer out of the corner of my eye, see her car keys. So I grab them, and there was no scuffle. I convinced her to go upstairs to bed. It's no secret, we didn't get along too well, but you live together and you run a family, and it's terrible for my kids. West says when he woke up the next morning, Sandra was gone, and so was his car. A 2005 Dodge Stratus, neither have been found. She had extra key for my car, I didn't know it. I'm gonna go first on this one. All right, I think this is classic embedded confession, almost everything he says is an embedded confession. The last thing she said when she came downstairs, and then he describes what she did after that, after they went to bed. Number two, number one, who keeps their coat upstairs? And they're in Wisconsin. She comes down with a coat on. Nobody comes downstairs with a coat on, you come downstairs, you get your coat and you leave. You do whatever, he says there was no scuffle. And there was no scuffle. Now let's just know there was a scuffle. There was a problem there. Why would he even bring that up? Why would he even say that? Then he says, I noticed, I looked down and saw her keys in her hand. I saw that out of the corner of my eye. Out of the corner of my eye, I see her car keys. So I grab them. You kidding me? Then he realizes what he's done, and then he says at the end there, I didn't know she had an extra pair of keys. He said a key's in my car, really, really fast. She had an extra key for my car, I didn't know it. These are all classic embedded confessions, right? All that make up an embedded confession. This should be studied, I think, because it's so classic. Maybe he hasn't been caught yet, I don't know. But here's what I think happened. I think he killed that woman. I think she came downstairs and was yelling at him about it, they were yelling, because they didn't get along from what everybody says. He officer puts her in the car, drives it out, puts it in the water, somehow gets back to the house, but he's got the keys with him. So they're gonna wonder why he's got the keys. Maybe they haven't found him yet, apparently. Maybe they haven't, but they're going to. And they're gonna say, how did you get back? Why do you have those keys? Because you need them to get back in the house and he's used to having them. He just put them back in his pocket when he threw the car in. I bet you it's in a lake somewhere. I'm just going off on what I think's gonna happen. I'm really not, sounds crazy. Yeah, but the part where he says she had an extra key, yeah man, that's the best part for me. Mark, where do you got? Yeah, so just that hotspot of the whole story around the keys that starts, yeah. And actually, before that, the last thing she said. The last thing she said. That's a bit final, isn't it? You know, that's a bit final. Anyway, but yeah, this whole kind of story of the keys comes up. So just add to it a little bit of non-verbal to that. Is he avert's gaze on, she had an extra set of car keys and then his head comes up and he locks gaze. I think to check out, are you buying it? Are you buying that one? Because you really need to buy that story because there's a bit of a problem with the keys. So yeah, he really puts his foot in it on the keys, I would say. That's all I got on that one. You did a great job on that. Chase, anything extra on this one? Don't say that. Next time he does it, don't say anything. Let's let him go. I'll give it to you again. Chase, anything extra on this one? Yeah, I'll just add in one. I'm sorry, Scott, I know you're gonna chop off. It's totally cool. I'm not going to, I'll leave that one in. So I'll just add in one thing here. You guys got a lot of what I had here, but listen to when the pronouns go from self-reference to remove to someone else. And in psychology and persuasion, this is called a shift of a referential index. And we're saying, comes down. She says, I see, I grab, I convince. She comes down with a co-down and says, the last thing she said is, you'll hear from my lawyer. Out of the corner of my eye, I see her car keys. So I grab him. And there was no scuffle. I convinced her to go upstairs to bed. And then he says, you live together. You run a family. It's terrible. You live together and you run a family. And it's terrible for my kids. So now it's no longer him involved with that person. So it's, I think that's pretty telling, Greg. So let's go right exactly down the same path you all took, but I'm gonna change just a small touch. He changes tense when he says the last thing she ever said. He's saying, she comes downstairs. She says, he changes tense. That's a permanent shift when you go to that. Like you said, Mark, it's locked down. She comes down with a co-down and says, the last thing she said is, Also, if I convinced her to go back upstairs, don't you think there's probably a conversation going on that convinced unless you had her by the hair or something dragging her up the steps? Now that's one way of persuading. I convinced her to go upstairs to bed. He also does what I typically call trading guilt. That whole thing about everybody knows we didn't get along. It's no secret. We didn't get along too well, but he's casting that out front just so you don't go down that path and say, everybody knows you didn't get along. Well, yeah, everybody knew we didn't get along. He does something that we talk about in the true crime workshop called transfer. And you'll see, I'll bet you when you get this guy in the interrogation room, you start hammering him, he's gonna become emotionally unavailable. That crying is emotional unavailability and he gets away from you. That's a good way to break eye contact and we'll see it again. You could break eye contact, good way to get away. He uses guilty words. Scott, you hit it dead on. Who says scuffle? Hey, we had a scuffle yesterday. That's not a typical word that people use, but when you think about crimes, a lot of people say it was a scuffle at the scene. So you get that immediately. The other one he does, I call that rational actor speak. She had extra key for my car, I didn't know it. That's rational actor speak to me. He's trying to figure out why that thing that's going to come up, what he's doing, we have a thing we call the liar's loop and that's a trigger. That's fabrication and de-conflict, pitch and defend. What's happened is he has gotten this whole thing together and he's ready to pitch it and he's throwing out and anything he's thought of, he's gonna give you that data so he doesn't have to do it again later. Hey, she must have a second set of keys. Last thing she said, all those things are his story. If this guy's not guilty, he sure is doing a lot of things that cause me to wanna dig into him a lot more. Could he be innocent? Sure, he could feel guilty because of. But these things like, last thing she said and then he talks about after. These things like, she must have a second set of keys. All of that points to something wrong in the story. By the way, if you don't know this, they've seized his antique car, that a dog alerted on and they've taken his computers and cell phones. Exhibiting, somehow that car is involved in then. That before he got rid of that car, that's how he got back or something. I don't know how he got two cars out there. I'm just like, Who knows? Who knows? But yeah, but you know what? I got another hundred bucks that says within 90 minutes, you could break this guy, box him in easily. Cause we're not dealing with the damn intellectual King Kong here. This guy, I think it'd be easy. I think it'd be easy. Well, I think the problem is the more you put your story together before your first contact, the more you're married to that story. We all know every one of us here talk to a guy who's got the perfect story and this is the Colombo approach. We go in and say, well, okay. But one last thing and then everything starts to come apart. Those keys, that second set of keys are 20 years old. They came with the car, that kind of thing. You just gotta come and find a reason why. And the story then starts to unravel. It's usually a small detail. It's not a big deal that takes it apart because he's thought of all the big stuff. It's a little stuff that gets in. Reverse timelines, those kinds of things, right? Yeah. Wes says his mother recently passed away and he and Sandra got in a fight over his mother's will. Sandra threatened to leave. She comes down with a co-down and says, the last thing she said is, you'll hear from my lawyer. Out of the corner of my eye, I see her car keys. So I grab them. And there was no scuffle. I convinced her to go upstairs to bed. It's no secret, we didn't get along too well, but you live together and you run a family. And it's terrible for my kids. Wes says when he woke up the next morning, Sandra was gone and so was his car. A 2005 Dodge Stratus. Neither have been found. She had extra key for my car, I didn't know it. She had extra key for my car, I didn't know it. The car was last spotted around 3 a.m., March 27th by a Muskego police officer. Sandra's cell phone, social media and bank accounts have been inactive since she was last seen. Her four children and their families offering a $10,000 reward for any information. Now that's what I don't understand. A grandma wouldn't leave her kids. That's the question. Yeah. That's the question and at first, I thought she's teaching me a bad lesson. What are you telling your kids right now? Well, they're nice to me, but at the same time, it comes out once in a while. You killed, you killed Bob. And it's not the case, but I am the low-hanging fruit. Yeah, it is. All right, Chase, what do you got? Well, let's first make the offer. I can teach these reporters how to take a screenshot of a photo instead of an entire web page that has a photo on it. Because it looks like somebody just Googled the car and then screenshotted the entire cell phone screen. And then they showed the whole cell phone screen on the news. That could have been cropped as well. Just sloppy. Having to do more with less, Chase. Nothing deceptive, nothing deceptive about that. So I think when he's saying the words killed and mom, we're seeing a little bit of body rigidity here, not definitive deception. And his head shake and his emotion when he's making denials is actually perfectly timed. So it's maybe a point in his favor. There is some stuff there where he's at first unwilling to disparage the victim, which I think is an honesty indicator. But then he says, well, that's the question about her. Maybe she did do those things. And maybe she was trying to teach me a bad lesson. That's what I don't understand. A grandma wouldn't leave her grandkids. That's the question. Yeah. That's the question. And at first I thought she's teaching me a bad lesson. Not sure what that means, but the reporter for some reason interrupts him in the middle of his answer to her question while he was going on and providing a detailed answer. She stops him and asks a completely different question. I would have loved to see the rest of his answer because I think that would have been a little more revealing. Greg, what do you got? So when I look at, yeah, that's the question. There's a little to it. That's the question. Which I would not expect. I would think that when you're talking about an emotional thing, it's down, not little thing. Yeah, that's the question. And then he kind of breaks eye contact. When he starts here, when he is talking about her doing whatever the bad lesson was and you see his eyes, he's drawing her with his eyes. That is usually for me, he's concerned about what she is thinking. Pay attention to that, that pulling taffy or whatever you want to call it. When I draw you with my eyes, it's a sideways confirmation glance. And if you believe it, then I'll keep my story up. If you don't, I stop. Guys, none of this means that the person is guilty. This all means that if we were sitting across from them, they would get a lot more heat. We would go after them a lot more aggressively. She asks you a good question, but you're right. She steps on him and then doesn't allow him to continue. He's still doing the transfer. He breaks off and goes into the emotional piece and he's doing more of that little, throughout the entire thing. I don't feel sorry for him here. And Chase, you were saying it earlier. Is the story about finding the person? Is the story about something else? I don't feel any of that for him. You don't feel sorrow for him. You don't feel like something's going on. In fact, it almost feels like he's saying, well, she's off doing something. She's just off doing something. Maybe it's their relationship. Maybe we'll find out that maybe she did do that. But there's a lot of red flag in his behavior, that drawing with his eyes, and then breaking eye contact in that transfer so you can't talk to him. And it's a way to escape questions. When you think Eliar's loop and the guy's put together a question and he's put together all this information, now he's pitching it. He's fishing to see if you believe him with a lilt in his voice and in his eyes to the side. The minute you do, he moves to the next element of the story. That's a bad indicator for a person who's being truthful, typically. Scott, did you start this? No, I'll go. Scott, what do you get? All right, when she asked him that, when she says, what are you telling your children? He doesn't tell her. What are you telling your kids right now? Well, they're nice to me. Yeah, he says what they say to him, that every now and then they say, you killed mom. He can't even get that out. You killed mom. I think he knows he did it. As he's trying to get that out, his brain goes, don't say that. Don't say that. So that's why I think he's got a problem saying that. And then the rest of the time he's backing up. I mean, he almost backs out of the scene there, out of the picture there. And I agree with you, Chase. I think we're looking at, I hate to say this in case they hear it, but it's not the greatest editing in the whole world because the edit between what we're seeing there, the reason that they didn't get the rest of that question, he may have answered it, but the edit is there when that picture is up. And you can hear him almost saying something else and they stop it and then go on. At first, I thought he's teaching me a bad lesson. What are you telling your kids right now? I think that's what's happened there. Because to me, that's fairly lame. That's not a very good way to question somebody. Even for a reporter, and you know she's been doing that a long time. She must have been doing that a long time. Yeah, when he says I didn't, when he's talked about that isn't the case. It's not the case, but I am the low-hanging fruit. You don't say that. You say, no, I didn't kill her, it wasn't me. I didn't do it. And I think you'd have a lot more to say than just I'm low-hanging fruit at the end as an excuse. This is just, I don't know why this guy's out walking around. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so the one thing that hits me immediately is the redirect that he does. The journalist says, I don't understand. A grandmother does not leave her grandkids. And he says, that's the question. Well, no, that isn't a question. She just made a statement. That was all, it's not a question at all. That's the statement. And what you've done is redirected away from that statement by going, hey, that's a question that I can't answer. Nobody was asking you to answer a question. Somebody just made a statement. And what they were looking for was your reaction to that statement. And your reaction to that statement is to deflect away and to go, yeah, I mean, we're all asking that question. And nobody is asking that question. She's making a clear statement of, that is not a usual thing for somebody to do. Talk about why this is unusual, make sense of that. He's not able to make sense of that. He diverts away. And at the same time, he takes his hanky or a cloth or whatever that is. And he brings it up to his face and he does a block at that point. He puts up a barrier of some sort around then. Those two elements for me are enough for me that I'm kind of go, okay, we've got something going on here. Before we even get into the stuff that Scott was talking about there, which just nails it. So that's what I got and that one, it's a good one. Yeah. And I think what he puts that thing up to his face is as the barrier, let's stop this and let's move to the next one. That's sort of putting it into it. You're, in other words, you're blocking it off and then moving to the next thing. So that's- Watch his eyes when he's doing that. Watch his eyes. He's making contact when he's blocking. He's looking peeking around the corner. She had extra key for my car, I didn't know it. The car was last spotted around 3 a.m., March 27th by a Muskego police officer. Sandra's cell phone, social media and bank accounts have been inactive since she was last seen. Her four children and their families offering a $10,000 reward for any information. Now that's what I don't understand. A grandma wouldn't leave her kids. That's the question. Yeah. That's the question and at first I thought she's teaching me a bad lesson. What are you telling your kids right now? Well, they're nice to me, but at the same time, it comes out once in a while, you killed, you killed Bob. And it's not the case, but I am the low-hanging fruit.