 Welcome to the OER by Domains 21 morning after episode. And, uh, stick with me here. And, uh, so what we have here is we have the group that worked on kind of near and dear element of the conference for me personally. OER by Domains 21 was a conference. It ran April 21st and 22nd. And the idea of this session is to kind of do a reflection and debrief on the development of the headless conference schedule site for OER by Domains 21. That was actually taking on the conceit of a 1980s will argue TV guy. So welcome Tom Woodward. Welcome Michael Branson Smith. Welcome Tim Owens. And welcome Lauren Hanks to this Reclaim Today episode. Where in we debrief about the OER by Domains 21 conference? Like it and subscribe! Or more! So anyway, um, where do we go from there? I mean, that's kind of the video. That was the marketing plan. Play the outro. Okay, so I guess it would probably be good to start with why this is the route we took maybe. What led us to kind of thinking about this and Jim Tim, I'm not sure if you all were. I've been thinking about this actually. And this is actually probably the only thing I've done for this site. So it's worth me starting and then shutting up. I was back in Fredericksburg. It kind of started talking about OER by Domains 21 and working with the great folks at all to put on this conference as an online conference. And we were talking with Brian Mathers because he's done art for both Reclaim Hosting and for OER. So we were like, we're going to work with Brian Mathers and we're going to get some of the visuals that we kind of know and love. And the idea as I was working with Tim and Reclaim Arcade, I was playing with the laser discs and I was seeing some of those like bumpers before the laser discs. That would be like, blue, selective or laser disc. And it was like boom, boom, boom. And they come in and that would be it. And then the movie would start. And I think we started chatting a little bit about we're going to use TV as the aesthetic. And it would be really cool to have some of these visual animated bumpers. And so that's kind of the first part of the discussion with Brian Mathers that ultimately I think led us to rethinking how we presented that more generally on the web. Does that make sense in terms of the early thinking, Tim and Lauren? Yeah, I think, you know, we were trying to navigate how to, I don't know, gracefully combine two different conferences. And you had these two natural tracks, but then we knew that OER was definitely going to have at least two tracks within their kind of umbrella as well. And so it wasn't a far jump to go from tracks to channels and thinking about each track being its own channel and each presentation being its own episode. And I think that guide, just the TV guide idea sort of snowballed on each other. We had taken a lot of inspiration from Digital Oceans Conference last fall as well. They had been using StreamYard and they kind of done the model where you would prerecord stuff and then the presenters could be in Discord and communicate with the audience, so to speak, while the presentation was happening. And we were like, that's a really interesting model, but even more so than that was the way they presented it. It was a single player where videos kept going through and there was little breaks between them and they would go on to the next one. And we thought, well, this is kind of a compelling way to view it. So I think the matching up of like the more practical idea of having the archive, having StreamYard, Discord back channels, along with that idea of the TV aesthetic was something really compelling for us. And we thought, what if we put that all together into some sort of like retro television aesthetic with a guide with all that kind of stuff? And it just kind of snowballed from there. And I think one of the things that happened is we were on a call with Alt, who runs the OER conference. And they were like, we've had some issues with our website, you know, and there have been some kind of questions around WordPress. And I don't even think the TV guide element came up until we talked with Tom and Mike or Michael. But I do think that we were like, uh-oh WordPress issues with sites, a lot of traffic, we're a hosting company, we're going to look like hell if this goes wrong. So what we did actually is we basically thought almost Tim and I at the same moment were like, wow, remember that headless stuff? Tom Woodward was showing us at VCU and we had already worked with Michael Branson Smith on actually developing a website for Reclaim Video. So I think it was at that point and Tim had to step away for a second, but that's at that point I turned to Tim and Lauren and I was like, we should try headless. And Tim was saying to me at the time, but there's only six weeks to the conference. What are you talking about? And I think at that point we reached out to Michael Branson Smith and Tom Woodward to see what was possible in such a short period of time. So it might be worth introducing you two and the work you have done previously with headless and web design and how that came when you heard us. What were you thinking? Did you think it was possible? You think we were out of our mind? Like I'd be very interested to get a sense of where you were at. Well, on my end, getting the data out honestly at this point is not that hard and we can do it pretty fast and build the back ends pretty fluidly. So like in the midst of this, we may have had six weeks, but I think really we had a conversation and then there was a big gap of time. And then you know what I mean? So it was not quite six weeks in my feel. And some of it was just like, to me, the hardest part is like, how did all do it before? You know, what do we actually want to happen? Are we going to automate like getting from their other system into this system? Like that stuff was more complex honestly than getting the data out because WordPress is default. JSON endpoints are pretty good now. And with advanced custom fields, we can build like some pretty friendly data entry structures. And as we prove during this thing, change them frequently at the last minute, which we did a lot of as we discovered we needed more channels or more this or more that. So my end really was was pretty simple. And you know, it's just an amazingly powerful way to structure data input and to get it out. And then Michael had to do the hard stuff, which is visualize, interact with and construct. So like my end was pretty easy. Before we get to Michael and we will, I did ask you, Tom, could you like, if you were to be asked put on the spot, which I'm about to, like what headless is and how you structured data using, you know, apis and JSON and the whole discussion of course came up, which I have no idea what it is. Like, what is some of that stuff? And why would we even want to do it this way? Like, I think I kind of skipped over that. So could you help me here, please? Maybe like, yeah, and and and some real technical people will probably be like this guy's moron, in which case, like, send me a letter and educate me or something, you know. But I mean, like, in my head, it's like this, like, when you go to WordPress, normally, even with caching and stuff, like, often there are queries to the database. If you have a whole bunch of people all at once going to WordPress, that's noisy. It eats up processor stuff. If you have lots of people writing to WordPress, it sure has held us that as we've proven time and time again as we've crashed things. And so, and you know, caching and all that stuff helps. But still, like WordPress is just like, it's not that efficient with it. It's not that super fast with it. If you can have something that's easier to cache and give out like a big chunk of structured data, JSON in this case, then you can do really cool stuff like Michael's done, which is just right. This whole kind of JavaScript interface to the data. And so headless is essentially creating the data that just kind of like hangs out there. It's super easy to cache. There's no database query involved. It's just like, there it is. The website itself can just kind of build itself really quickly based on user interactions and whatnot. And it's just, it's fast. It's low impact on the server. And you have the flexibility to kind of do anything you want, because you're not trying to wrap it inside a WordPress. You just use WordPress to write because people are familiar with it. It's an easy place to build the writings interface. And then the reading construction thing is done by Michael. And I think that was super appealing, especially in the beginning. It's also because we were working with the Alt team. And you know, there were so many hands on deck, so many people that were adding in content. And this year in particular, I think, you know, the Alt team was using a new registration site and there was just a lot of newness. And so it felt overwhelming, this idea of bringing in a whole other platform for the conference site also. So the fact that we were able to say it's just a WordPress dashboard, we can customize the fields, you know, so any data that you all want to collect, email addresses, Twitter, user names, all that stuff, you know, we can have a place for it that not only becomes, you know, that space for displaying and delivering content during the actual site, but then it's also a nice archive of who was participating in this specific event. So it was a really easy sell on our end also when we were coordinating with the other teams and the other players that were ultimately the ones interacting with the WordPress dashboard and adding in the content. And it was trippy to have two servers, like the WordPress site on one server and then the actual HTML. And Michael never really had to jump on the WordPress server. So like Tom did his work here, Michael did his work here, and the two never would meet. And that was kind of interesting, both of them sitting there. And to your point, Tom, we had no traffic issues at all with the website. Like it was just, we didn't even have to think about it for that two and a half days, which was beautiful. And that in and of itself makes it worth it because, you know, the first thing you think in running a virtual conference, and I've, you know, I've been a participant in other virtual conferences where the sites just crash and then everybody's just sort of out of luck. And that just wasn't an option, you know, it had to work. It had to be online the whole time. Well, one thing we didn't hit was what Jim is kind of pointing out now, since we had it on two different servers, Cores comes into play, which is essentially, can this thing over here be allowed to access the data over here in a particular way? And when you're dealing with JavaScript, because of like cross-site scripting and all sorts of hacky type things, you kind of have to explicitly grant the permission. And so we had a little bit of bump around that. And I did it in like three different ways. I think Tim did it in another way. So not sure in the end which one actually worked, but it's not too bad once you turn it on, then it just works. You're muted, Tim. I thought somebody was producing this. I really thought that somebody would be muting and unmuting for me. I can't catch a break here. No, I think that's a good point. And, you know, I tried some HT access rules and then the other weird thing, it kind of gets into. Oh, no, it's gone. Unbelievable. He's not meant to. There we go. This is, you know, when you give people power and this is what happens. It's a very dangerous slippery road that I've been on. I wonder if you guys can guess who's producing evil. Evil stuff. No, but watch our networks. Jim is just the man on the switch. That's right. Exactly. This is the man behind the curtain. You know, it gets into the weeds, but we even found like, we just wanted to like wild card. Like, yeah, any website can access this because we're not too concerned about security. And then Safari was like, yeah, we don't respect that rule. Like we're not going to, you know, it's always like just for that browser, it wouldn't even allow a wild card. Like you had to specify each domain. And so, yeah, just weird, weird stuff like that to work through. Yeah, because that's one part where I heard you all talking about cores. And I was like, wow, I have no, I have like, what is that? And I didn't take the time or really have the interest to find out to be clear. But that was a point where I was like, that's, that's cool. Because I was just watching from after we had the idea, I was kind of watching you all work. Right. Like that was kind of a beautiful thing to see. You know, obviously we've worked with Tom and Michael before in different projects and DS 106 is always a common thread. But the fact that you all just took the assignment, you know, you chose to take it and you kind of nailed it. You know, I mean, I think Michael, we didn't talk specifically about the development process, but it would be interesting to hear, you know, you were brave enough to take this thing on on top of your day job. Why? Well, because I ignored my day job for a good two weeks. And also, it also forced me to stop working on my my duck on rebuild. But, but I think I think the thing is like I kind of approach it the way that one of those people who's watched a few too many home improvement videos and YouTube videos and says like, I think I can redo the plumbing in my bathroom. You know, I think I could do that now. I've got some tools. I've got I've got okay skills, you know, which leads to just you just approach it like part by part and you're like, wow, okay, I actually have to pull the sink out, you know, now and, and I was sure I knew how to put off the plumbing but man now there's a big hole in the wall that I wasn't expecting to have to rebuild. So I think a lot of this was to a certain extent like this it's like, I approached it as like one problem at a time that first one I was most scared of was how is I going to build the player right because the player was going to be this, you know, tool that smartly responded to whether the presentation was live or pre recorded. And, and we wanted to embed the chat the live YouTube chat versus the discord chat which the only way to embed it out there was this group called Titan that had built like basically a beta in the way I looked at it ultimately I look I realized that they were Titan is a discord server and all our discord feeds were going through their server to allow us to do this and they had just built the embed tools for they made a connection with their API to that stuff in particular. So that was cool and making edits and so you're just like tinkering and tinkering and tinkering. I was pretty satisfying, but ultimately the most satisfying was when we started to finally work on the listings pages, like the player itself was had a certain amount of problems that I can speak about specifically. But the listings pages is where it was really interacting with Tom data. And there's a lot of cool stuff that's possible once you start working with you build a design so the design as you remember I just would. I mean the cool thing about the TV guide and the way I was thinking about it is like a TV guide an old TV guide with this paper page flipper that would display, you know, dozens of channels and hundreds of television shows across like five pages, like if you think about it and so a pre a conference like this in a sense wasn't unlike that but they're so economical with that presentation of data. Right. So they give you the bare minimum, a bit of detail in the beginning. And so then you'd go watch the show and see who liked it. And so the cool thing is with us is we could give this title and the speakers and maybe a bare minimum of detail and that was it. And you could see the with CSS you literally can chunk off and you get the dot the ellipses the dot dot dot that's actually done with CSS you know the full the full text is there in the HTML the CSS is just not allowing you to see it. All right. And so you would just but the cool thing is then since it's the web and you know pages are free, you would just click on it and you get this pop up window and you get to see the full presentation information right and as well as the link to the watch button. And so that was really satisfying way to allow someone to, you know, preview all of this data very quickly about all the presentations and say, recognize like a speaker by name or portions of a title that was interesting to them, or even track the channels. It's like, Oh, that Jim groom guy I'm avoiding him. I'm just going to look at the OER one and OER two channels like because I always snuck in on that one. Damn it. So he just kept showing up here and there but for the most part if you wanted to avoid him you just go to OER channel OER one channel. And I think though also, you know, I'll say, you know, as part of this design that we really didn't get into but it had the ability to do we just for for part for time, but also I think just for part for interest, like if we had wanted a speaker page that would have been negligible to add right because all the data Tom I correct me if I'm wrong. All the data was in the WordPress site they were added as speakers anyway so I know like sked.com is a very popular sort of online scheduler for conferences and there's a lot of those things where it's like show me all the presentations that Jim's on or show me a speaker list with all of the various presenters in it and then you know or all of them on this particular track or all of them on this tag. There would have been ways where if we had wanted to filter the TV guide, we could have if we wanted to in the future say only show me the domains track stuff or only show me stuff from these presenters and we could have done things like that to the data itself I think becomes really malleable in that in that context. Yeah, you're right we definitely there was a lot of filtering that was I mean there's I mean it's definitely one of my things that I think it's a lot of fun to play with it's like once you have all this data that has attributes that you can interact with, then you can start to write all of these methods to sort it and filter it right you know and so for this one the biggest filter tool was time right and so that was my I think favorite part about it was the idea that you you entered as a you know user of the WordPress site that that time built, and you had to enter a date and it was one of the two dates the 21st of the 22nd and then a specific time. And since the conference was hosted by all to their in London, all the initial scheduling time was based on London time which is British summertime right. And so the cool thing is you take that time. And then there you use a library that like I use called Luxon and you would pick that time assign that time to Luxon to British time but then it's a universal time it's literally a time that exists in a moment on the planet and it will never come back and it will never come to be there again it's an exact amount of time. And then with Luxons library you could do all sorts of interesting things like you could convert that time all the way down to milliseconds and sort data based on milliseconds and then more importantly what we was what was most satisfying while watching the conference is people we can have it automatically adjust to people time zone so when you when you see something on your computer that displays your clock it's actually looking at your computer's clock setting so you can go into your time settings of like a Mac and get into the preferences and change time zones and if you do that you can refresh the page and you'll see the time in the time zone that you set your computer at right so whatever clock your computer is set to it would automatically adjust the time. And so and it would always display like things like at the top gmp plus two so that's basically that's my time is right now yeah exactly. Right which I think is probably the feature that everybody loved them I mean they love the design there's so many aspects of it love but there was like an outcry of support for this because obviously when you have an international conference with people across so many different time zones that becomes really hard and I think in previous so we are conferences what I remember is that sort of they use they use their time zone and then there was a button you could click to go to like time dot com where we converted to whatever you want it and you'd have to select you know your particular time zone and so every single session you're having to go what time is that in my time where is this it was just it just worked which you know it was amazing to see like to not even have to think about it is incredible. And the whole idea that there's a GMT and a BST is still pissing me off like I'm still angry about that like I thought they were the same. They're not BST is GMT plus one. Yes. And after you miss a couple of meetings because of those you learn quickly. One of the things that I wanted to talk about and I think this really does involve everyone's work is kind of the how how the the videos were sort of held behind start times, which is data that we obviously put into the headless WordPress dashboard, you know to kind of say presentations are going to start at X time BST right so we did have to use that one sort of standard time zone in the background in order to have a proper schedule but then once that was set up. Michael you had a way to essentially play things at a certain time, you know as they were kind of coming live on the schedule and then I think there was also some other work that was done with YouTube. Directly to you know play things on time for the pre recorded sessions and I thought that just amplified the experience so much and did you know regardless of pre recorded versus live. You had this countdown and it just sort of made you feel more immersed in the conference to be able to say okay. This isn't a button that I can click an hour beforehand and just oh watch it whenever I want that you know I'm joining the conference and it is starting at this time. And it makes it synchronous right which is what you want with the conference like this is like you want that synchronous aspect where everybody's consuming the same thing at the same time it can have a conversation about it and yeah I think originally our thought was that we would have the videos sort of play at the same time and obviously that gets questionable about like. Is it playing for everybody at the right time and then what we had found was that with YouTube if it's a live video and someone plays the video ahead of time. It just says this this video will start at x date at x time it just sits there right and it'll do a countdown or whatever like starting in 15 minutes or something. Same thing for a video premiere even if something's pre recorded and you upload it if you say I want to premiere it at this time it treats it kind of like a live video and that you know it will. If somebody were to play it ahead time it would say this this video starts at x date and then you know I think in two minutes beforehand it would actually start counting down to it and that allowed pretty much down to. You know maybe a second or two here and there that everybody was seeing the video at the same time that it was live for everything regardless of whether it was pre recorded or live so. That was like a 12th hour discovery. It was. Yeah that was amazing. Yeah yeah particularly for the pre recorded stuff right because yeah the live things we knew what live was going to do and things are going to be live and that would be fine. So for the pre recorded stuff it began it gets to be a lot trickier to figure out how do I make sure that every like nobody's going to hit play at the same time and you kind of hope like oh we said it's a 10 o'clock so people will go there at 10 o'clock that's not going to happen. And I even tested during the conference coming into something late and it would start where everybody else was in the video and I mean that's that that's exactly what we wanted yeah so. That was very cool. I mean because initially I had written it to that. Using time it would you could you could have the time library say hey what's time right now right right and and you would you would check it against the time of the actual presentation and say like nope. That time's not here right now so don't display the play button just play a scheduled button. So I think once you discover this alternative which was. Wow you can schedule pre recorded material and it will premiere live and that's what it effectively is it's it's actual just live to tape right so it's alive to tape that's broadcast at a particular time and everybody consumes it in that same broadcast. Time obviously we haven't mentioned that ultimately this became this amazing archive right so this is a way that you can it's a good interface to access all the presentations again right because we're all there. Without having to do anything because they're all they're all. So I like that downs. I like that downs was like well we've all been doing this forever on YouTube but it's like well actually there's something here where hundreds of videos were being live streamed to pre recorded and they're an instant archive is that what you're talking about like. No there's something to the web design and development of the actual data ahead of time that made that possible that's worth kind of reflection on. Well the experiential wrapper I think is the thing that makes it different like. I mean like that that to me is an obvious statement like we can stream video always like we've been able to do that for hundreds of years you know we just had to use horses or something you know what I mean like. You were quoting an experiential wrapper like there's a wrapper out there called experiential wrapper that you're about to quote. Yeah. I may I'm that may become my new stage name experiential wrapper but you know what I mean like that downs is sad and he wants everyone else to be sad and that's that's what we go through every time with this and that's all right. But I mean like that idea like experience like that to me I think is the important thing here like you wanted to feel you wanted to create these emotions and that the combination is like the technology much of which has existed. But to combine the things in a particular way with all these people being kind of guided both visually and and kind of in the moment through an experience like that's what makes it a thing. Like that that's how you design an experience so like I mean to say it already existed I mean come on. It was so cool to see to in the midst of talks like I remember Martha talking about in the chat while her presentation was going on and she's like saying I'm never this is how I always want to present like it'd be so awesome to have you know my presentation going on but then my ability to immediately feel that interact with the audience in a way that you know kind of it's so it's so hard to do that live like if you're presenting even to just watch the chat is very difficult when you're the person presenting because you're thinking of so many things you've got your slides you're trying to think especially if you've got multiple people talking and all that and then you forget oh I wanted to mention this link and then like you know as opposed to being able to say like oh yeah here's that resource I'm talking about right now and yeah here's what we did and somebody asked a question you can answer it while the presentation's still going on. Yeah I love it too. That was really cool and you guys obviously did I could tell did a ton of you know basic post work it was like kind of podcast edited post work where it's like okay we're just going to do these nice light edits here to keep the conversation clear that was all you Jim thank God for you Jim. Well it's also the beauty of StreamYard I think too which is what we're using now but it does allow you to sort of produce on the fly and add in those bumpers in the beginning and end to kind of bookend the session you know you can then add in logos and banners and StreamYard you know also does allow you to pull in live comments from YouTube as well so you did have that interaction with the audience even though the speakers themselves are sort of protected in this little bubble. So for me that's calm I'm not sure if that was the logo fell on anybody else but. I'm still waiting for the torrent drop of the six hour video conversation with Boone Gruggers where he goes off on that mulling wig. A gorgeous cut. I tell you. Well and I think he left most like let's be clear most of what Jim left on the cutting floor was himself I think. Cutting himself out of the videos. It's true with like Mike and Tom like Mike West and Tom Woodward did one and I it was like you know 30 something minutes and when I cut myself out it was 20. So there you have it but one of the ideas so a couple of like fun ideas that I had talked with I think Tom I talked with you about it wherever you are there you are and I think I talked with Brian Lam like I wanted to do I had over books so we had too many already. But I wanted to do a couple of fake sessions where I would have someone who I was chatting with whatever and then all of a sudden like if they live there would be a break in the TV like someone had jammed the TV and came in it was like Tom I think your character was going to say like if you're not using all open source you know hardware you know you're living a lie and that was. The opening of it's like yeah what is it escape from New York when when the she's on the cockpit recorder saying we have control. Your capitalist society is going down and I wanted to do like little break ins but then I was like what if we did that to pre existing talks like we came in and had people come in and break the kind of but I that's probably not ethical but I got the same point I do think it would be interesting to kind of to to play a little bit more with it like I had fun with it even what we did at blast. But now with all the data and the API's may we could maybe do a randomizer you know that literally interjects things like that if we had like a you know we have this archive of random clips. Could we insert them over the top or even you know do like a Paul's JavaScript event on the thing. Like all the videos have time stamps and if you go to the YouTube I mean every we go we the cool thing is we have one of the most important piece of data is the unique YouTube ID for every video so that's that and that's bear alone right. So with you probably have to use the YouTube API to do it so that because assigning time stamps in opening the URL isn't elegant but to do a bunch of switching where it because the YouTube API almost positive you can tell how long the video is right and so then you could generate a random time stamp within the length of the video and then remix the crap out of it. That would be actually and you maybe could do like supercuts of all the times like people say something you get a supercut in that like the things people said like open like all the different ways people said open in a context of what two or three words were before and behind it would be hysterical. That's that's more work. Yeah, okay, sorry. I mean, I do know that one be like now he's asking me to maybe poor foundation and I don't think I'm ready to do that. I mean the whole house has to sit on that thing. So maybe it's good to get a professional for that part. So let me ask you this Michael and this is kind of this got into the fact that we came too late and ask too much, which you shouldn't be surprised of what would have had taken to make it possible to switch between tracks. Oh, that was the thing. Yeah, that was the one one thing that I wish I'd had the time it would have taken only another day to be honest another couple days, because I'm pretty sure I mean I'm not worried about like building the interactive tool. I would have changed channels like that would have taken some time to just sort out the best way to do that. But the idea is the player one of the things about the players the player was not actually interacting with Tom's endpoint right. It was actually taking when the constructed URL to the player just worked with old PHP get request and it sent all the data in the URL so the URL was this big sloppy strip of information like it had all the names of the speakers. It had the channel and at the title, all that data was in the URL. And so it wasn't making the player wasn't making requests to the endpoint that being said you easily could have had it making requests to the endpoint. And you would have to have some sort of every time you you click change the channel. There's two events you have to track changes of the channel, which is that's not too hard. But the other one was going to be when the event ends right and so. Yeah, because because the events weren't timed so strictly like in a TV studio, there would have to be some sort of query that happens like so hey is it over five seconds later hey is it over. And that wouldn't necessarily be that much of a lift on the computer if it was not like you're making that request every like 10 milliseconds or something like that you just make it every like three or four or five seconds. And so if it was over it would automatically just say like oh that one's done. Then let's play the next one and then and it would probably require getting into the YouTube API that would be even the better way to do it so if something ends it would automatically like switch to the next one. But I don't know I mean it definitely would have been possible it would have been cool to sort out how to solve it. I think it's to be continued. I do want to revisit some of this was I think it's a cool enough platform that you guys created that we could revisit it and have a little fun with it not only with some of the stuff you're talking about remixing. But even like another event taking what you've built on that foundation because I do think it's foundational and actually like you know giving you the time and energy to put some stuff on top of it so I'm very interested in that person. I also think it could have been cool one of the things I found myself wanting throughout those two days was a way to come to the site and see OK take me to what's playing live right now. Versus you know having to navigate times and kind of sift through the site a little bit more which again not a huge deal because the time converting piece was so helpful. But being able to say OK you know what's playing live in domains right now you know what's playing live and we are one or two and just kind of highlighting that section through the TV guide or something. We're fading out other pieces like just some sort of. I think you could have had the guide as the guide and then the TV as the TV and three channels to change between and that TV is always on with the various chats. Like you could actually have the guide and the TV. And so and in some ways you know the the discord would be like the living room furniture that you're chatting in. But like those are the two guide and the TV. That is kind of a cool idea because I think that was one of the and that's something I could obviously argue. I think on either side of because I sort of liked that you had to go in a separate window for the presentation. That you wanted to watch and you know and then you kind of navigated back to find the next one. But to automate some of that also to kind of say you know let's just switch the panel. But I wanted more eyeballs like I wanted to get someone in the stream and then not feel like they could leave. Like I really wanted to trap them like they would watch and then they would see a commercial and then they would get a bumper and then the next thing would start and then they would be like. Because I feel like the way in which the web is designed we're not doing that well enough with Facebook and Instagram. We need to do it more and better. Screen time has never been higher. I think I would argue. I think what Jim's getting at is this even more passive experience. Which is like you're just interacting not at all. At a certain point you're just like just take me on a ride. I like this channel. I want to be here. I don't have to touch anything. I'll be here for a while. That's cool. It's funny because I have the same where I'm coding at night and doing stuff. I go back to watch broadcast television and there's this network called me TV. Starting at 11 30. Perry Mason comes on. I love Perry Mason. It's just a great classic legal thriller where someone always cops to the murder which is the best. Never would happen in real world. But there's all the commercials still there and there are all these commercials for people that are like my age and older. Which sounds like crap. I'm hitting the demographic. And then the Twilight Zone comes on. And then like another effort. It's just amazing to just be like this is fine. Let me just watch this for a while. And I'll deal with the commercials. They're legalizing marijuana. Network television like this is all right. It's not all bad. Well I think we did it again. We did it. I won't. I will. But any of the last points I think we kind of we we covered it pretty well and even link towards future steps. But anything else around. Yes Tom. I think my comment is like the reason I think interesting things keep happening with this particular group of people maybe is because we try and do things that are interesting anyway. You know what I mean. Like I feel like if you always say like we'll do that when we have enough time let's just do the standard thing again. I mean then that you're just in that loop for forever. If you don't throw it out there and be like well come hell or high water this better work then I think things don't get done. And if you don't have interesting goals to begin with things never change for you. So I mean like I think there's something to be said there and you see it in lots of things. So I mean like I don't think that can be overstated. Yeah. And I know like you know when Jim proposed the idea early on I mean it's like I forget what he said but he had said like a few words and I immediately knew where he was going to go with this headless word press TV guide all this stuff like I knew his whole vision. Like right from the get go and then he was going to pull in you and you and Michael and I was I was just sort of like yes but like I was like I was the butt person like I was the butt. And I had to break in the other tech survivalist. That's what I had to do. And mostly just because I was like okay but we have like three four weeks left before the conference begins. And I didn't want to pull other people in and they'd be like hey we've got this really awesome idea and we've got like three weeks to build it. But I'm glad we did and I'm glad that you all were game for it for sure. Yeah the most harrowing part ultimately was like so hey yeah the data needs to be in there. I need the real data. And that was also super challenging because you know we had it was sort of conceptual for the longest time and you couldn't have the site the display site without the content to go there. And we didn't have the content until you know a very quick it was very very soon before the conference before that data actually came in because we were still working with the speakers and going through edits and things which I'm sure the all team can speak more intelligently about. But you know it was sort of it was like building the ship as we were sailing it you know we really didn't get those final pieces until the end and then of course you're training the speakers and getting them sort of acclimated in the system. And then they would make changes to their presentation which of course made changes for how we were displaying it and so I needed you know more fields from Tom and we had to rethink things with Michael. And so it just there was definitely a few days towards the end where it was like can you just do this oh and this and this also. It's always a point though it was so smooth because I wanted to see things go bad and be like irresponsible assholes. Yeah this is always Jim Jim's philosophy is always just compliment the shit out of them and then ask for a bunch of crap. Oh my God you're so great. How do you think reclaimed hosting was built. I love you but I need this. Yes some of those ass early on we're like in this website like you solve world hunger and say we like spin a server up and offer it up to people with hosting. It was a cool project though and I mean it's kind of going back to times when I think like the tools that we used were enough it's nothing new it's just putting them together in such a way that made for a really elegant experience and for folks that did kind of want an overview of the tools that we use that was probably kind of glazed over and we could have covered that more in the beginning of this. Session but we had you know Tim you did a lot of work in the beginning also a single sign on to kind of protect the site for just the participants the folks registered in the conference and now I believe it is available for everyone to see. But that was a really important piece as well to know that okay the folks logging in and interacting seeing the discord chat and the YouTube chats and all of that. It was just the audience of the conference right and then we had you know StreamYard was how we were scheduling out these presentations for live speakers and StreamYard had unique URLs that then led to unique YouTube IDs and that's how we were pulling in everything into the headless site and then the really important distinguish distinguishing factor with the chats of course would be the YouTube chats for how we were interacting for live presentations and discord became the chat for pre recorded presentations. So there was that distinction but of course for participants we really wanted we didn't want to have to explain that or you know say to folks this is StreamYard and YouTube and over here this is discord and here's where you go for this one but over here you have to go over here you know we just wanted it to. Seamlessly embed across the board and so that's kind of where the conference display site I think really took shape and became the home base and that's kind of how we refer to it and a lot of the support resources is regardless of your technical experience all you need to do is log in with your you know your you know your registrant credentials and you'll see everything you need to see and if you want more experience if you want to engage more you know we do have this discord space over here that you can install if you want you know but Twitter's still going to work you know YouTube's still going to work it's all just going to be embedded right there so I think just like that seamless mesh is one of my favorite parts. I agree and I really loved the the idea of the the guide being the visual presence of it like all those other pieces you to work beautifully discord work beautifully StreamYard work beautifully but like no one really needed to understand that as the icon as well as the player like that could be us and I think that could only be done by us and I love that we did it because I feel like it's so quick to offload to sked or offload these other things and you just have this cookie cutter experience whereas I feel like when people came to the website and their first experience of it was like wow that's pretty crazy whether they got the reference or not I do think it was different and I want to actually print out on paper high grade paper the actual thing with the OER guide thing and kind of create like a framed thing to put on the I love me wall. Like I want that because I think it's such a beautiful like thing like I think it stood my joke with Lauren as we were preparing for this was like you know even if the conference doesn't work it's kind of look good. Yeah, I mean I will say jokes aside the artwork you know is probably some of the best was some of my favorite stuff that Brian has ever done and maybe you know deserves its own conversation and on podcast because his bumpers were just dream worthy you know they were so cool and just all the different versions of the logos the media badges you know just so many different mediums and elements that kind of came together to make this metaphor happen and I even still have my little tote bag back here. But I want my flag by the way I need some OER X domains television stickers. That's fine. Yeah, I should send it to everybody and I will I actually also want to I got to talk to Tim because he's going to say no. But because that's how he is. But I actually wouldn't mind getting some momentum. I want to see if someone could print out the guy. And if we can design it for layout that's not hard. If you could do that let me know because then you can do all the work. So it's not really like a present. I mean, here's the thing you want to print it out so it's actually like a foldable TV guy wanted to be framed. So you want to be like the ages. Yeah, the poster. Yeah, that's no problem. If you could have that by next Friday that'd be the situation. Yeah, one thing great work Michael big fan. I read all your tweets. You guys were amazing though. I mean I really had a blast working with you. I'm glad it worked out so well. I don't think anyone I don't think there were any freakouts. I think we got along pretty cleanly and it was fun and it was awesome. So big fan literally. Anything else? Are we done here? Is this thing over? Are we done?