 on the other, you know, when they could have done it, you know. I do. Objection. What's that? I need something. I need to make that known. One test to the other. How's it going? So this coming Friday, they did an echocardiogram a week with the subspecies. I saw them before that. You know, they didn't tell us anything. Now they want to do it. So they're testing. They can always, real small. Normal size. I guess the guy didn't look at it. So, but I hopefully, they will then tell us what it is. Because he's got the most progress. He senses surgery. He's got lip pressure. He can get it for the morning. 160 over 108 over 10. Wait over 10. Do you see it? Are we seeing that? Can we see it? Get in there. I'll go to the doctor. They're not the same. They're normal size. That is a little how he's, that ain't going to work. He fell off the cliff, so I've sitting in there and I'm like, okay, so he had surgery December, December the 14th, but before he had surgery, he forgot to. She had surgery? That's a lot of pain, but yeah, it's like. He was telling us about that. He was leaving us with that. He swears out half the sepsis. We don't know what he's covering for this, so it sounds like you're doing. Yeah, I'll take mine as a win. She's doing well. So what, her blood pressures are running pretty good? Yeah, it's stable. I miss last month, we have a family trip out to Maui. Okay, okay. Oh my gosh. That is wonderful. And the key is to stabilize his blood pressure. Yes, you get it. Do you guys ever seen to Michigan? Yes. What's that? When I went outside, it was going to be snowing. Was there not a shot? Yeah, that area too. I think it's going to be good. It's not that much of it. Can you imagine that crowd? Can you imagine them getting on a bus? No. That's what I'm saying. I want to say that, but nobody on the bus is going to be riding on that bus. That's right. I said to say that. They might take you away from them. They're talking about the bus. They're talking about running a bus. They're talking about running a bus. Look around and find it. So anyway, I think that's what we're going to do. I think we can get that. Turning lanes. I really think it's happening now. But it means to be. I don't think I did think that. That was a good point, because at some point, I'm just going to be at the community. That's right. Well, you do hear what Mr. Jokes said. He said, nobody has really addressed it, but it will definitely be that. I hope we're in the ground now. That was a good point about the turn. Look, you have noticed that we start waiting. Look, especially to you. Let me see what the crowd is going to say. Okay. I'll have to do it. Maybe she didn't do it. Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's probably where. I'll give it to the chair. Oh, yeah. I mean, I just among 54, I've seen too many idiots out there. But I have to be sometimes I feel like I don't go ahead. But you know what? When she was talking about the clean, not hate, clean cuts. Well, I'm telling you, you probably don't really know where to turn to go home anymore. That's how much of this stuff is here. I did turn once you drive through the medicine. And then discovered they hadn't finished really putting the final layer of paper on the road. So I was going along dodging all these little manholes. Well, look, I tell you, there is nothing going to be left to develop downtown and in south door. One thing, the last property that's supposed to be has never been resumed. Oh, yeah. Where is it? It's on the luggage case. Oh, you're talking about the one that... Yeah, thank you. From the gas house? Yeah, well, not the gas house. But this is dying on the crossfit because the gas house is lower than mine. Well, I'm looking for you. Oh, yeah. Look, look, look, look, look, look, look. I'm here. I'm here. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'll do better, I'll do better. Wait, wait, wait, you have to... I didn't hear him change the... Yeah, it's... I was going to talk about the... I just read a study that Raleigh's millennial population is on a down swing and they're having issues with all those... But Durham, that's supposed to be the top place. Raleigh was the top place six years ago. Raleigh was the top place for millennial six years ago. But Durham is the top place right now. Yeah, and now Raleigh's on the better place. Because they don't... They're not lifers like us. You know, if we move to a town, we would... We would probably... Who's microphone listening? Thank you. Thanks for your patience. We are back in action. We will move to our second zoning hearing in case of the evening. This is the 1900 Hillendale 2 case. This is case number Z1700049. And we will start with the staff report. And again, if you are interested in signing up to speak during the public hearing, please sign up to my left. Jacob Wiggins of the Plain Department has come to my attention that the applicant for this case, I would like to request a continuance to the June 12th hearing. So if the commission would be willing, I would recommend turning it over to the applicant at this point. Thank you. We will welcome the applicant to speak. If you can come up to the microphone, please. Hello, I'm Jim Anthony, and you all may recall this case from about a year ago, and we were trying to create a parking lot. And we took you at your word and went home and came back with a townhouse project that we've been working diligently with the neighbors to reach agreement. We have done that, but we had so many tweaks that we made to it over the last couple of weeks that now it's really a new submittal. And Jacob has made it clear that due process must be followed. And so we are asking for a continuance so that the new plan that goes with the rezoning request has all of those committed elements that we have agreed to with the neighbors. So that document will be in your hands before we meet next. And so we'll see you in two months, assuming you grant our continuance. Thank you. Great. Thank you very much. And I will say, I think on behalf of the planning commission, we appreciate that you are going to take the time and bring back a proposal that has everything in writing. So we have time to deliberate as well. So the request is a continuance for two cycles. Are there any questions or comments before we move forward with entertaining that motion? Maybe. I think I said the same thing last time with the Rollingdale. I noticed there's some neighbors in the audience that may want to speak to this, and I would hate that. They agreed to it. I think they did, but I want to make sure that's the case. That's a fair question. If there are any neighbors who would like to speak this evening, why don't we... We've not opened the public hearing, so I'm not sure that we... We've got to see if you're going to continue it. Yeah, we will open the public comment period. And actually, why don't we bring up the signup sheet as well, and we can just give anyone the opportunity to speak this evening. Thank you. I'm Olivia Moore. 2104 Dartmouth Drive. And we have worked diligently for the last couple of weeks with Jim talking about height, building materials, types of construction that's there, setbacks, buffers. And he has met with us a couple of times, and we have come to an agreement. We have development comments that he was going to present tonight that we have agreed to as the neighbors. So we'd love to see it in writing. And we have no problem with the continuance. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you very much. If you don't mind, we could have you sign in as well. Marked it through when he said we'll do that. Oh, you're on here. Never mind. We've got it. We've got it. Thank you very much. I'll second that motion to continue. Do we have a... We do not have a motion yet. I'll make a motion to continue for two cycles. I'll second that. I properly moved by commissioner Gauch and seconded by commissioner Satterfield, but we want to hear from the staff. Can we make that a date certain? That date certain is the June 12th Planning Commission here. June meeting. June 12th. Amend the motion as such. Great. And seconded as such. So the motion now has been properly moved and seconded for a continuance to the June 12th Planning Commission meeting. All those in favor, please raise your right hand. Any opposed? Great. That is unanimous. Thank you. We'll see you in June. A reminder that the next item on the agenda has been moved to next month, the Chin Page Road case. And so that will be back next month. And the final zoning map change this evening is the JC Electric initial case. This is case Z18 quadruple 04A. And we'll start with the staff report. Good evening, Jacob Wiggins with the Planning Department. Some of you are the majority of you were on the commission last year when we had a request from property in Orange County petitioning for annexation into the city of Durham. We have a very similar case here this evening. Mr. Chad, how fine is the applicant representing the applicant in this case? Again, this is a request with an pending annexation. The property is currently zoned in Orange County. This is within the city of Durham's interlocal agreement with Orange County to provide utility services. The city requires an annexation petition for any new connections. The applicant is doing construction, requires water. So they have petitioned for annexation. In order for the city to annex the property, a zoning designation must be applied. So the request before you this evening is a recommendation as to the industrial light zoning category for these two parcels of land. The subject site is highlighted in red in front of you. The little circles you may have noticed in your packet, we did some staff photos. So those are referenced on attachment 2A. The site is south of I-85, just north of Hillsborough Road, US 70, and straddles the Durham Orange County line. Some of the photos, again, these are attachment 2 and 2A in your packet, kind of giving you a fill of the area. The first photo looks north of Orangewood Drive, which is, let me show you. On the aerial map on your screen, Orangewood is a street in the city of Durham immediately east of this site. It's a single family residential street. The second photo is a kind of an industrial flex space located at the intersection of Hillsborough Road and Orangewood. The third is a view further west into Orange County along Hillsborough. Picture number four looks at, from here, looking at the existing structure, which would be annexed, an existing industrial flex space. And the fifth image is an image taken from Orangewood looking east into the subject site. You can maybe make out a car that's parked and the buildings are behind the tree line. So hopefully it gives you a little bit of a sense of the immediate surrounding area. In terms of zoning, the requested district is Industrial Light, which is the most analogous to the Orange County designation. And it is a designation that is also found in this area to wit the, some of you all may recall the Jacobs Glass site last year. Very similar set of circumstances, proposing development in Orange County, but asking for annexation into the city of Durham. The Future Land Use Map, as you can see, given that this is in the interlocal agreement and the city of Durham does have the authority to annex properties in this area, we've already applied our Future Land Use Map designation. As you can see, the majority of this site is designated as industrial on the Future Land Use Map. There's a small little portion adjacent to I-85, which is residential. The Future Land Use Map is not proposed to change through this action. And that is by the ordinance, does not require an initial zoning designation such as this to necessarily adhere to the Future Land Use Map. Some I-L zoning standards, these are also in your staff report. Generally, you're looking at a side area of 25,000 square feet with appropriate lot widths and street yards to hopefully buffer any uses that will be found there. So in summary, staff determines that this request is consistent with the comprehensive plan and applicable policies. Again, this is just a request to apply a zoning designation, the city standards, and this, along with the associated annexation petition, will be considered by city council after this body makes a recommendation. And I'll be happy to answer any questions the council, or I'm sorry, the commission may have at this time. Thank you. I'll actually move to the public hearing and we'll open the public hearing. I have one individual signed up to speak for the proposal, Chad Huffine. Thank you, Commissioner Busby. My name's Chad Huffine, 505 East Davis Street. So close. Burlington, North Carolina, 27215. We appreciate being seen tonight. We're bringing an exciting opportunity to grow the city of Durham. We're in Orange County, Orange County proper, and this is a case that's necessitated by the extension of water and sewer through your utility extension agreement. State requires, I'll just add to what Jacob said, the state of North Carolina requires that you apply zoning to a piece of property as it's annexed, and so that's the meat and potatoes of this case tonight. I'm here, Jacob's here to answer any specific questions that you may have for us going forward and again, appreciate the opportunity to come in. Thank you. Thank you very much. Is there anyone else who would like to speak? If not, we will move to close the public comment hearing and open it up for any commissioners. Any commissioner comments or questions? Commissioner Goesch. Thank you, Chair Busby. Question for staff, a couple questions, and I apologize in advance, because I'm not sure how to articulate them. So when the Jacobs class annexation came through, I don't know, last year, there was mention of some special provision in the interlocal agreement, whereby maybe the city could extend utilities without the property being annexed. And I never did understand that, and I wonder if you guys could provide some insight on that. Sure, Jacob Liggins of the planning department in the city code of ordinances. There are some potential exemptions for this area. It's a certain set of criteria that one has to meet. I mean, it has been determined that this project requires annexation. Okay, and I know this annexation is being sought to extend the public utilities that way. You pointed to that one parcel to the south, that I guess is Jacobs class. I didn't recognize that initially, but I'm wondering if this parcel is in between. Do they fall into this agreement? Could they potentially be annexed? Yeah, Jacob Liggins again. So anything identified on our future land use map in this area is subject to the annexation agreement. The applicant, annexations are voluntary, so an applicant would have to commission for such. I will say that the city does already have some utilities in this area. So actually, Mr, the site actually has an existing water connection. It's just they're requiring a second connection, which are these annexation requirements. Okay. Thank you. That's all. And I'm inclined to support this application. Just had those technical questions. Any other questions or comments? Commissioner Miller. So I have a bunch of questions. I can't tell from the map, but it looks like I went out there and went to the end of the residential street where Bird hits. And the property drops down fairly dramatically. Is there a jurisdictional stream in there? And is there a stream buffer? Require. I think it was the plan apartment. I'm not aware of a, I'm not aware of a jurisdictional stream in that area. If there is one, I don't see, I don't see it here on our content. But if there is one, it would certainly be subject to any buffering requirements. When I look at the zoning context map that's provided in the report, I see one, but it looks like it. So if you can you see that there is a dotted line stream that runs through the yellows, and then it runs along with the black dotted line, which would be the current city limit line. And then it emerges from that to the west, and then rejoins it. And so, but you don't know whether or not that actually imposes a buffer required. No, so my apologies. I was not looking at the correct map. There, yes, that is a, since it's on our map, it is a regulated stream that, so it's going to be at least a 50. Depending on intermittent or perennial, it could be 50 or 100 feet. Yeah, but at least a 50. Yes, it's intermittent. A minimum of 50 feet. Yes, sir. All right, that helps. My biggest concern with this rezoning application, there's no development plan. We're proposing to put into light industrial next to a single family residential neighborhood. And when I think that when we do that, we should have a development plan that has some fairly extraordinary or some additional protections in there. And we don't have one. What is the buffer without a development plan requiring a particular kind of buffer? What is the minimum that would be required under the IEL zoning? IEL adjacent to RS 20, it's probably going to be a 0.8 opacity buffer in this area. And what's the minimum width? I realize that can vary depending upon what we put in. I believe it's 50 feet. I'm going to put that on that for you. Thank you, Jacob. And I've, well, Jacob, you're probably the only one that would know this too. I will say that I tried to look up EDE 1 and EDE 2 and was not very successful. I'm sure that it was my lack of skill and not Chapel Hill's lack of transparency. So I'd also kind of want to know what are those zones and what goes in them. Their titles do not suggest intensities to me. I'm not an expert on Orange County's zoning designations. Based on my conversations with them, my understanding of the allowable uses in the EDE districts that it is most analogous to our industrial light district. The range of uses are similar between the two districts. Unusually, we have a site plan here, but it's very small detail. I mean, it's just, it's small. So I had a hard time reading some of it. And I realized that they can change the site plan. This is currently what they propose. It's an administrative process. It does not show a connection. At least I don't think it shows a connection to bird, but there is nothing that would prevent this property from having a connection to bird if it was owned industrial, light industrial. Is that correct? Unless there is a physical feature there that's prohibiting that connection, then I would assume that the applicant could make a connection. And that does not state that that is a required connection. So all of these things add up to me are a concern. I, when we put commercial or industrial zoning next to single family home zoning, I like there to be some of an effective buffer there. This would be hard to make an effective buffer here because the backyards of the houses on orangewood drop down. And then they begin to rise gently on the other side. So if you were even to put a planted buffer in there, everybody would be able to look right over the top of it. And much of it, at least at the, at that northern end is fairly clear. It's harder to, harder to get access and see how the, how the topography performs further south in the property without you kind of have to look through the houses. So that's my concern. I would like to have a commitment that there would be no connection to the residential streets. I would like there to be a commitment to a effective and sound buffers in there. And then because there's no development plan, I can't have those things. And for those reasons, I would like to vote against this reason. I think Mr. Miller just confirmed from earlier that that would be a required 50 foot buffer. 50 foot buffer for this point, 0.8 opacity. Okay. Thanks. And other questions or comments from commissioners. Yes, one question is, I'm just curious for the, for the developer, since this is near a residential community, are there any objections from members of the community? And to my knowledge, our office has not been contacted by any neighbors with any opposition. I'll ask Jacob if he's received any. I'm Jacob is a play apartment. I have not received any phone calls regarding this request. Okay. But the notification went, you know, to those residents. That is correct. And is it not a normal part of your process to hold some sort of meeting with members of the community? Not, not for this particular case. This space. Okay. Not at this case. Okay. But it was. Well, and nobody's objected. Okay. Thank you. All right. Now you're acting like commissioners commissioner Satterfield. Thank you, chair. Recognizing that what we're looking at in the packet isn't. Site development plan, but theory. What would be taking place in the outdoor aerial park area and the aerial park building. And again, it's, you know, that's, there's no guarantee that that's what would end up happening on the site. But presumably some thought went into at least this concept. Commissioner chairman, just as a point of order, Matt, may I continue to take the questions from the members. I've got a list running and I'll address them all and try to alleviate the concerns you have. And then you can fire back at me again. If that, if that would be proper or I need to address each individual. If it's possible to address the questions as they come to you, that that would be ideal because the specific commissioner who has the floor may have a follow up question that either for you or for staff. And so thank you for that clarification. I miss Satterfield. I'll start with you and answer your question. And then if I may, I'll go back to Mr. Miller. Okay. Miss Satterfield, thank you. The outdoor aerial parks, climbing ropes, course zip lines, that sort of thing on the outside portion on the inside portion. You have trampolines and activities consistent with gymnastics or just recreational fun time. Thank you. You're welcome. And you may address any follow up to commissioner Miller statements. Okay. And Miss Hyman, then I'll come back to yours too. Mr. Miller, on the east side of the property, there is no current connection to Orange Wood or Bird. The low lying topography, the possibility of stream crossing, the just the simple desire to keep residential on one side of the creek. So wonderful natural boundary from the industrial uses to the West. In addition to that, there's approximately 200 feet of distance between those residential uses in the actual activity portion of the site. So well in excess of the required buffer between the residential and the industrial light use. And I'm not sure if you had one more question or comment, but I hope that that alleviates those two. Vice chair, we actually have had conversations with our neighbors to the West, which are adjacent to the property line and the access road. And they're in support of this activity. I'm sorry, I didn't follow the proper order. Thank you, sir. That's not a problem. We're making it work. Commissioner Johnson. So I was just curious and obviously there's a cost to it. But is there a reason why a site plan was not submitted with the actual programmatic development plan for this to come along with this year, given some of the concerns that have been raised, you know, that would have been a great opportunity to, you know, ward off some of the concerns. I'll answer your question. We simply were not required to. We're in the process of site planning and annexation and rezoning, especially use permitting all at the same time. Yeah. So all of those items are going through staff, council and planning. And you do have the basic concept, I think, in your packets, which is what is the proposal. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Commissioner Williams and then commissioner Gibbs. Upon receiving further explanation about the proposed use for this site, I can see how it would be beneficial to the community, but I also have concerns with most of these facilities with use inside and outside. First being the amount of noise that it will generate to the neighbors and also the amount of traffic when you have indoor facilities, such as these where you have indoor soccer, indoor hockey, indoor volleyball that occur in these specific uses. Having participated in several of these, I find that the biggest issue is the amount of traffic that's generated and the amount of inadequate parking. And without a proposed development plan, I'm sure that you'll allocate what the UDO says is required as far as parking spaces are concerned, but developing a plan that addresses these issues because it's not necessarily secluded for this outdoor recreation. There are neighbors to consider and there's also other impacts because I would assume that this particular recreational development would extend into the later evening hours where most people in this area are returning home and it's also adjacent to 85 and surrounding neighborhoods. So I have sufficient concerns about the use of this and though a development plan isn't required, it definitely would have been helpful in determining whether or not this rezoning is adequate. I know there's also no text commitments either. If I may, Commissioner Williams tried to address that. So the couple of things, as no development plan was required and this is not a rezoning, this is an initial designation. The use on the site plan could change if it stays. The applicant is going to have to go through the minor special use permit process, which is a quasi-judicial hearing. In that hearing in front of the board of adjustment, they will have to provide factual evidence that the use and proposal will not have any negative impact on surrounding property owners. Operates very similar to a court proceeding and that's what the applicant will have. They'll have to provide factual evidence to show that during that hearing. That was helpful. Thank you very much. And I do apologize for miss speaking about the rezoning. Thank you. Commissioner Gibbs. I've gotten a bit confused. This is a proposed plan for the development of this site or is this existing on this plot plan? Commissioner Gibbs, I'm going to hop in and answer that because I don't think Mr. Huffine can see what you're referring to. You have a site plan in front of you. Part of that is existing structure. The northern part is proposed new assuming the property gets annexed and the request receives a minor special use permit from the Durham Board of Adjustment. So this layout in this site plan, are you are familiar with this site plan? I may approach. You may. Okay. My question is, is this the proposed development plan for this site? Yes. And I refuse to get out three magnifying glasses to try to read it. That's why I'm asking. Okay. This is the new part. Thank you. Mr. Huffine, if you don't mind actually just, if you could verbally in the microphone to sort of walk through what you were just describing to Commissioner Gibbs just so that we have it for the public record. I think it may be what Mr. Wiggins had just walked through as well, but we'd appreciate that. Sure. Thank you. So we discussed the two pieces of property. The southern piece of property is currently developed with the existing JC Electric building. The northern piece of property is the proposed development area. Both of those properties are being initially applied as the IL zoning as part of the annexation process. Thank you. Thank you. Any additional comments or questions? Commissioner Miller? I do actually have one. You raised a good point and it may change my viewpoint on this. Is this, because there's an annexation application in, is this rezoning one that, I mean, the staff report describes Mr. Huffine as the applicant. Is he the applicant or is this a city initial rezoning? Is the city the applicant? Is he paid a fee? He has paid an annexation fee. The zoning application, hypertechnically, the city is the applicant for the initial zoning designation. So if the city is the applicant, there can't be a development plan because the city can't impose a development plan on a property owner. Is that correct? That would be correct. All right. That does change my view and I'll vote for this. Great. Thank you. I think at this point it's appropriate for a motion. I will accept a motion. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman. I move that we send case Z184A forward to the city council with a favorable recommendation. I'll second something. Properly moved and seconded. I think Vice Chair Hyman got in first with the second. All those in favor, please raise your right hand. Any in opposition? Motion carries 14-0. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you all. The final official item on tonight's agenda is reviewing the fiscal year 19 work plan to start with a staff report and a microphone adjustment. We against. Old lady with arthritis. Not the first time they sent it to us like an email. May this be the hardest part of your presentation. I just have really strong muscles. Let's note that for the record, shall we? All right. Sarah Young with the Durham city planning department. The item before you tonight is the annual proposal for the department's work program. This would be for the fiscal year that begins July 1 and runs through June 30th of 2019. And as most of you that have been here for a while know, the interlocal agreement that created the planning department between the city and the county requires that every year we submit to the joint city county planning committee. The planning commission and both governing bodies are proposed work program for the coming fiscal year. So this year I want to run through, as I always do, kind of the highlights and remind you a little bit of how the work that the department does is structured. And basically we do three types of things in the department. We do ongoing legally required items like, you know, process rezonings and process site plans and sort of adjustment cases and certificates of appropriateness and all those things. We also have ongoing processes that are basically mandated by city, county or departmental policy. For instance, the vast majority of our customer service functions, right? We don't have to be nice to people and kind of hold their hand and walk them through the process. But by policy we elect to do so. So that's an example. We always get questions like, what do you mean by that? That's what I mean by that. There's a lot of things that we don't legally have to do. But if we want to be any sort of quality department, we absolutely have to do. And that's what those things are. And then the third group of items are really where the discretion comes along. And those are typically our long range planning projects. And that's part of what I want to talk to you about tonight. So in the memo that was in your packet on page two, it highlights basically four substantial projects that are new being proposed to be added to the work program for next year. The first is a project called Expanding Housing Choice. And the purpose of this project is really to look at other options as opposed to the recent project for an interim affordable housing bonus or any future project for more permanent affordable housing bonuses associated with our compact neighborhoods or other special areas. This is a broad based look through the entire ordinance to look at ways that we can streamline, make easier, incentivize, encourage more affordable housing throughout the community. And I say affordable housing, not capital affordable housing, but just housing that is less expensive. So just to note that difference. We hear from our customers all the time that are trying to do innovative things that there's some obstacle in the ordinance that's keeping them from being able to develop a property in a certain way in terms of making it a market affordable unit occur. And so this project is aimed at looking, scouring the entire ordinance looking for opportunities. The next item is called Ninth Street West Compact Design District Edition. And for those of you that were here, you will remember that when we came through a couple years ago now with the compact neighborhoods and the design district, future land use changes for all of the station areas. The Irwin station area had a piece that really was separated from the station area proper and really was contiguous with the Ninth Street existing compact design district. So we are proposing because that is kind of self contained and relatively easy. You're just adding to an existing district as opposed to trying to revamp new standards and put something in place in a completely new area. We're proposing a standalone project to handle that kind of mini compact neighborhood addition there. And then probably the biggest item is the third bullet on page two of the memo, which is a brand new comprehensive plan. Yes, the cheering to make amends. We are very excited that our outdated 2005 comprehensive plan will soon be replaced hopefully with a new up to date one that really reflects kind of where we are now as a community. In 2005 things were very different than they are now. Our comprehensive plan did a lot of good things, progressive things in terms of transportation planning. It did a lot of good things in terms of environmental planning, but it was really, really shy and very poor really in terms of infrastructure capacity planning and doing a lot of the deeper look at what it actually costs and takes to make development happen throughout the community and where is it appropriate versus not appropriate. You will see in most comprehensive plans in other places that it's very clear where we want growth to go. If you open our comprehensive plan you will find that nowhere. A current comprehensive plan is a group of policies and homework assignments for the staff and it really does not set out a vision for how and where and when we will grow. So we are very much looking forward to that. We expect that to be about a three year endeavor or less with a lot of public involvement and a lot of staff time, which is why if you were to compare our proposed FY19 plan against some prior work programs you will see that there are less projects on it because this is really going to take a lot of staff time. So putting that out there that's going to really limit our ability to take on a whole lot of other things. The last thing under the discussionary long range projects is the industrial land study update. The industrial land study was last touched I think in 2013 and there has been a lot of change in market conditions particularly in some of the areas that were previously thought of as potentially prime industrial. Then in reality there may not be. We need a fresh look at this. There is kind of limited analysis done at the time and we have better methods and techniques to discern what might be actual prime industrial now. So we would like to take a look at that again. So that's it for the long range projects. There are some process improvement related type projects that are listed that start at the bottom of page two and I'll quickly run through them. These are initiatives out of our development services center. As you know the development services center launched this year and it has a very long laundry list of things that it wants to accomplish. They are talking about creating a new optional pre-submitted type meeting for folks. Pre-submitted meetings are required for a lot of our processes but they're not for many things and people really benefit from the ability to get together staff from various departments to deal with issues before they submit. So getting, being able to assemble a cross-departmental team is no small feat and so we're trying to put in place another process to be able to do that for folks where it's not strictly required. Then there is on the top of page three zoning permits and zoning permits are a little bit of a hybrid of some of the exercises that we currently do at the development services center as part of our basic customer service functions, looking at people's zoning, verifying whether there's any outstanding violations on a property. People come to us all the time trying to do diligence and do their homework basically on what they can and can't do on a property and what may be hanging out there that they need to be aware of as they try and plan what they want to do with a piece of property. But there are a lot of instances where smaller projects, things can fall through the cracks. Particularly there's a lot of single family development, you know it doesn't require a site plan but there's still a lot of things that come into play and so we're trying to have a unified place where people can come get kind of all the boxes checked. Hey I looked at this, I looked at this, I looked at this, I'm good to go with whatever my proposed development is. It's kind of a quick, high level vetting of a piece of property for a potential applicant. And then the last thing is the small cell wireless permits. There was some changes in state law that precipitated this particular proposal but basically we have a new mandate to process these small wireless permits including a fee, graciously affordably set for us by the general assembly. But so we need a process to handle this and that's what that is. A lot of this work is also coming with a request for additional staffing. So just be aware that the memo says that this work program represents 46 full-time equivalent positions. And if we do not get the full allocation of the additional positions that we're requesting, then the work program will have to shrink accordingly. So that's kind of my disclaimer. What you see may not be what you get. We'll see what happens. So I'm glad to answer any questions. I know I rushed through that. But I know you guys probably would like to get home. So I have to take any questions. Great, thank you very much. Thank you, Sarah. I have a question about the zoning permits. A couple questions. Is this something that would only be required for projects like single family that don't require a side plan? Mostly. So what is the current FTE for the department? We are currently at 44. So we're asking for two positions. Does it sound like a lot? Mostly. However, people could use them to check on other things. And I don't have the full detail with me of what all would be covered under a zoning permit. But it would primarily be single family. There would probably be other small scale things that would be covered under this as well. Basically something that doesn't need some other type of entitlement like a site plan or whatever. We have a handful of those things. But we don't have fence permits. Other places have fence permits. You have to get a permit to put your fence because we need to verify that you put it up at the right height. We deal with it on a complaint and violation basis. Stuff like that that's in the ordinance doesn't necessarily have another process that covers it would probably be covered by this. This high level vetting of the whatever proposal of the property, is this what it is? So this is basically exhausting every in-house resource that we have. We would cross check are there streams on the property? Would you be subject to a stream buffer? Are there things that particularly that the average home owner may not be aware of or that the average small entrepreneur that's starting a little business or something on a piece of property may not necessarily be aware of. There's a bunch of things together for folks that don't necessarily know where to look. So my thought process is I'm a little unclear on what I get why it's important to check this but how is it going to affect let's say the person who doesn't need a site plan is building a single family home and they do the standing permit thing and they say there's a stream, there's going to be a buffer. How does this affect that person's ability to build the house? Currently there are some things that are zoning permit material that are being kind of ad hoc checked in other venues. So you come in for a building permit for instance from the inspections department to build your house. By law, building inspectors and plans examiners, they only look at the building code. Guess what? We have setback requirements, right? If you're in the watershed protection overlay there's a pervious surface limit. Well that's not their purview. So it has been like I said kind of ad hoc whether those items really got checked or not, how thoroughly, how often. So we're trying to kind of tie all the pieces together for folks. So the way it works now is basically it's like hopefully someone checked this. Hopefully. And this is meant to say well we're going to make sure we check it. We are absolutely checking it, exactly. That's helpful now and then the other thing is just let's go from city of Raleigh where I've done some work and it was related to a zoning permit although it sounds like a slightly different item. So I don't know where in the sequence of approvals or reviews this zoning permit is intended but what happened in Raleigh was the site got a CO but did not get a zoning permit and then it was found out later that in fact there wasn't enough screening for non-mounted mechanicals in this case. And which created an odd scenario. There's already people living in this apartment and the property owner was getting NOVs related to not having enough screening and it was also too late to provide the additional screening. So anyway the point is I don't know how this is but I would encourage there to be some sort of checks and balances so if this is something that's going to be required it's required at the appropriate steps so that you don't get a CO before a zoning permit and then have this retroactive problem. The beauty is that the inspections department as you know is one of our partner development services department in fact they are physically located in development services with us so we feel fairly confident that that coordination piece will be able to be handled. I've been Raleigh not Durham so I have full confidence that Durham will be able to handle it. Those Raleigh guys you never know man. We make different mistakes than Raleigh. Commissioner Bryan. Thank you. I have a couple of quick questions on the ARC B page 19 of 27 item 5.2 0.8 food trucks. That is what it is. So it's like carts like the hot dog man cart it's food trucks. And then on page 22 item 5.3 0.7 I will admit being very ignorant I don't know what you mean by C-L-O-M-R clumber. It's a something letter of map revision. What is the C? Certified letter of map revision. So these are changes to the flood maps. Okay. I just think that at some point in this thing the first time you make reference to it you might want to spell it out so ignorant people like me know what you're talking about. Noted. And on the high priority projects attachment 3 on the Austin Avenue compact design district do we still have industrial zoning in that compact? Currently yes. I'm still confused about I don't want to get into it a lot but I'm still confused about how that's going to fit into a compact district. No, but when you start looking at making things more dense if you still if Dural Armageddon chemical company is still in there you're not going to want to have stuff that close to it. That's why it's proposed to change the design district. What are you going to do with the industrial stuff that's there? It's there. I will say that in that area we have a lot of we have very little of the noxious kind of heavy nuisance. We have a variety of metal scrap yards. We have a lot of auto repair. A lot. If you all need a car fixed I can tell you where to go. She wasn't here when Armageddon poured the toluene in the storm drains. Yeah. We have very few of the kind of large kind of plant operations. Okay. And then if during the next fiscal year we were to receive notification that we're not going to get any federal money at all for the proposed orange Durham rail line do the priorities of items one to four go down? That would be something that would have to be re-evaluated. I will tell you that that third attachment is just kind of the future wish list. For right now it's the parking lot. No, I understand that. We would re-evaluate that. Okay. Part of it I think would come out of the comp plan regardless of light rail or no light rail. The community is going to continue to grow. Where are those people going to go? How are we going to accommodate them? I think those are still valid questions and whether we have concentrated areas like these compact neighborhoods to incentivize densification in specific areas. That's a question for the comp plan and I think a lot of that will be resolved there. Okay. Item seven on this list the land use plan update for burdens Creek NC 55 of South Austin Avenue. I'm inclined to believe you'd be wasting your time effort and money to do anything down there. Your window of opportunity is gone. Okay. And my final question on the Durham technical community college area especially investigating potential zoning map change are you talking about both campuses? Yes. Thank you. Great. Thank you Commissioner Bryan. Commissioner Hyman. Yes. I am very excited to see the comprehensive plan and my question is similar to Commissioner Bryan's is it contingent upon the addition of the staff one question and the second part would be will this proceed with an outside consulting group or which would make more sense if it's going to go through the community and be directed by the planning department. So where are we with that? So great questions. Two positions are not for the comprehensive plan. We are gearing up to kind of if you were to compare this work program against our current year work program you will see that a lot of things have dropped off of it and have been stuck either back on the kind of hold parking lot list or have been or are slated to be completed by the end of this fiscal year. So it is anticipated that the majority of the work on the actual drafting of that plan will happen in-house and staff from the policy and urban design team which is Scott Whiteman, Lisa Miller, Hannah Jacobson, Matt Filter, Mike Stock those folks with additional resources from the rest of the department we have requested through the budget proposal to have funding for a consultant to do a fairly robust public engagement event throughout the comprehensive plan process that is not to say that staff doesn't want to do it or is incapable of doing it but we are trying to kind of get the most bang for our buck. We want to reach more people and engage more folks differently than we've been able to just with our own resources if we do not get that funding we are still doing the comp plan it will probably be a more limited comp plan in scope so that we can kind of divide the resources that we have and still do a decent job maybe not a great Cadillac version job of public engagement that we would like to do but we still need to do a good job of public engagement but it will just mean that the scope of the comprehensive plan is a little thinner and leaner. Thank you Commissioner Miller so I'm actually thrilled about the zoning permits idea everybody does it but Durham it's even contemplated in the statutes and we don't do it I do have a question about what the effect will have on vesting in other words if I come and I get a zoning permit does a clock start running so that if the rules are changed I can act on my permit or have you thought it through that far? I don't think we've thought it through that far to be honest. That's fine I realize all this is coming back this is a list and I'm also thrilled about the comp plan I want to know what's waiting for neighborhoods I heard recently that there's a neighborhood out there that's actually working on the new historic district is that so not to my knowledge okay I think there is one but I can't tell you anything about it other than that's what I heard what about another NPO is there a neighborhood out there in the queue? Not officially we have heard rumblings of other neighborhoods exploring the NPO as a possibility but again nothing is coming officially I don't even think we've had any official meetings with anyone about it it's just that's why it doesn't show in the plan very good I would like to see we've got the community section I think that's great the zoning course is great I realize that we lost our professor but we have a new professor who taught the one that was just done? Matt Filter okay Matt did it I would like to see that course beefed up and made better and offered more frequently I think that's great I would also like there to be a designated liaison from the staff to the internet council and not necessarily attend every meeting but have some sort of connection and communication so that there can be some programming and improved communication we have the this body that's been around now since gosh 1985 I think we could exploit it better I would love to see that as a line item in the work plan I will say that with regard to your issue section in the memo and I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it but this whole idea of the missing middle I find that laughable as an affordable housing idea I mean the whole concept and the term was created in order to address what its originator deemed to be as a housing need for people who were downsizing because of the aging of baby boomers and it was actually a way to maximize housing profits from that segment of the housing market and so when I see it used as an affordable housing tool I always kind of chuckle I personally don't think the economics are there you cannot liberalize the zoning code into affordable housing prices and housing go down when there are national calamities or local calamities national calamities being recessions local calamities are Detroit other than that I don't think a local zoning code can affect a national housing market in the way it responds to demand and demand is supply it comes from people who have improved incomes and can pay for housing I think sometimes in Durham we have a tendency to confuse demand with need supply does not respond to need we have that demonstrated here constantly and that but it is a but we should we should do something about need but I don't think you can do it with zoning code I think this is a really nice layout of these issues and I like the opportunity to talk about it rather than just watch a slide show so thank you Mr. Williams I'm particularly excited about the changes of trying to streamline the UDO and make it more flexible to those that are actually trying to use it to better the opportunities for development whether it's for affordable housing or if it's just for actually upgrading properties because there are certain hurdles that developers and contractors face now that if they were eliminated it would make it easily accessible for people to change their properties and without having the issues that we've had with some of the proposed boundaries that have been put in place for MPOs which make MPOs actually more of a tool for existing residents and even for future residents so I think the process of getting to the point where we can make the zoning more fine tuned and relax some restrictions that developers may have it makes it more attractive even for using existing properties so I'm definitely excited about moving that forward and trying to help in any way possible and as much input as we possibly can give to develop these standards and help the UDO be less cluttered but definitely more of a functional tool and better understood by the residents because people don't know until they get a fine and that's unfortunate. Thank you Commissioner Gibbs. In looking through this is this speaker on anyway and looking through the list of things when I ran across missing metals I was kind of excited because I think this is one of the tools that could be used for density without taking up so much footprint or ground space just one of the tools but this is not which we all know is not a new concept it's been done New Orleans Georgetown just everywhere but it's I really do think it's it's a good concept to and it has an application so I just wanted to mention that I'm not trying to start an argument with Commissioner Tom but anyway that's just okay and just folks who are still if you haven't still haven't found anything to watch on TV when it gets late we get giddy we're ready to go home right thank you thank you thanks Sarah for this presentation I guess I'd like to follow up on Commissioner Miller's last point which is sounds like a great work plan and then especially thinking about these big issues like two that stand out to me are the expanding housing choice and the comprehensive plan and I guess you're just my my and I can't speak to the commissioners but for me personally I would love to be involved in some of the processes that are a little bit you know as things are proposed or as things are as discussions are being had by planning staff so I'm not sure if there are ways to do that to make that more part of our work and again maybe that's something that we commissioners need to decide whether we want that as a body or not but I personally would like that and I would just like to propose that to the staff so I will say that we are happy to have y'all's input on anything that you want to participate in I know in the past we have had commissioners come to public meetings workshops that we've had with the public on various projects and both kind of observe and hear what people were saying and themselves kind of participate so we are more than happy to do that I will say certainly I expect a comprehensive plan and the hopeful anticipated level of engagement that we plan to have I think there will be more than ample opportunities but any project that we work on we welcome y'all's input and participation I think it's also good for the community to see you all participating with them at events and so we'll make sure to pass along every time that we have any opportunity we're doing a variety of things we do traditional workshops meetings open house style meetings we do focus groups it may be good to have some of you serve on some of our focus groups if you don't feel comfortable participating at least observing and being able to take that back to the group so we're happy to if you have particular specific ideas of how you want to be involved please send those to me we're happy to accommodate that absolutely thank you because I don't think I am aware of those workshops they're publicly available but I'm not aware of them usually so that would be great and I would also just second part of that was maybe some of our I get that we want to be efficient with our time but if there are things that we can discuss as a group in this meeting in this space I'm open to that as well but I will leave that to others as well thank you commissioner and actually you raised the point that I was going to mention as well I think knowing that this is going to be a three-year process and it's supposed to be deliberate having the public hearings and opportunities for us to be engaged in those type of events makes a lot of sense and I think it'll be important for us to help spread the word to make sure that the citizens of Durham know about it and can be engaged but it does seem like we as a working body will be available and could be helpful I don't have an idea yet or a proposal on how that might be the case but it does seem like as it moves forward this is a place where we could be a sounding board we could certainly help think through as a body some of those options especially when we have meetings like next month where it sounds like we have one agenda item we'll have months like that where we may be able to utilize our time and offer our input in a way that may help advance some of the public meetings and other events as well I'd be interested at some point I know the staff has so much free time but it would actually fall under this work plan of a comprehensive plan it'd be interesting to find out of other communities engage the planning commission beyond just we show up with the public but is there a way that we can be engaged as a deliberative body and I think that's what I hear you saying as well and I see a lot of heads nodding I think we'd be interested in exploring how we could be helpful Commissioner Miller just to point out an example although I was not sitting as a commission member last month when this body considered the Old West Durham neighborhood protection overlay change I was struck by what Mr. Brian had said after the vote was is that the planning commission in connection with the consideration for the Tuscaloosa Lakewood NPO has actually been given before the public hearing had been given a kind of a briefing somewhere in the process as it was being developed rather than just seeing it for the first time I was struck by the fact that I believe that the quality of this body's deliberation on the Old West NPO would have been improved had there been some sort of opportunity that wasn't provided between proponents and opponents where there was real engagement about how it was going to work and as we do some of these other things in here like look at these special project things I would like to have briefings along the way added to our agenda we meet every month I'm retired I actually do this for fun and but it does matter and I sometimes feel like when especially when big projects where staff is devoted a lot of time when we come in at the end and vote I feel like gosh I would have liked to have steered this a little earlier so that we're not throwing out everything simply because I might have been able to shape it or be involved so adding briefings at the appropriate stage and development to our agenda on these six or seven projects that you've identified here especially like design district changes and I would love that so that when it came and we deliberated and we voted that I didn't feel like I had to get it all out of a staff report especially one that was this thing that we had been brought along with the project this is tough stuff you guys are in the trenches you are intensely familiar with issues because you're developing them as they happen they get dumped on our plate at the end and I'm not sure that we have the nuanced understanding of how things got to where they were and sometimes I worry about making wrong decisions because I don't get it I would like to spend more time along the way on the big projects especially those where there's a lot of community engagement and intensity of community feeling if I'm going to vote against somebody in the community wants I want it to be a thoughtful decision rather than a mistake any staff response and I think we'll have a motion on this item I was going to say that we're happy to do that we actually used to do that more and I'm not sure why we've kind of fallen off the bandwagon but our practice used to be to try and bring large projects here kind of imid-ish way through and give you all a preview so A you weren't surprised B you could if there was further stuff that needed to be looked at if there was insight that you could give us early on that would aid the project so I will have a chat with my folks and we'll see if we can get back into that good habit that's wonderful Commissioner Satterfield thank you I was just going to lend another voice of support for that concept I think it'd be great I think we would end up with a lot more positive outcomes great this is this is a really great plan I will be ready to approve it once there is a motion Mr. Chairman I move that we send the fiscal year 19 2019 work plan forward to the city council with a favorable recommendation however I would like to add to it that we get a line item in there about liaison with the internet group council yeah include the county also it does I'm sorry to the governing bodies there is a motion I have not heard a second second all right properly motion by Commissioner Miller seconded by Commissioner Miller I ask for some time staff did you capture the motion okay all those in favor please say aye aye any opposed that is a unanimous approval before we adjourn I know that Miss Smith wanted to just talk to us briefly about the planning commission training and I did have one or two quick additional updates as well so just wanted to make sure everyone the training on April 26th. We have confirmed it. You will be receiving an outlook invite. April what? April 26th. It's the, I think the only person I had that responded that they cannot attend is Mr. Bryan. Everyone else with the exception of maybe one or two if you have responded, so. What time? From nine to 12. And so I will send an outlook invite so you can add it into your calendars. And that was really all I had to share other than the one item we'll come back next month for your. Great. And where will it take place? So it will be where we were last year? It will. All of the details will be in that look invite. So it's gonna be the same room in the planning department. Everything will be the same, but I'll make sure all of that's in the email too. Great. So yeah, it'll be Thursday, April 26th, from 9 a.m. until noon. It'll be in this building, but on the ground floor. And as usual, there will be parking passes available for parking. I would advise you that a lot across the street is often full by 9 a.m. So get here early or just be ready to walk a couple of blocks. That's a very popular spot. And we are not providing lunch. So just letting you know, but we will have you out in time to go to lunch. We may have some like very, very like refreshments, but we're not having lunch, so. I live in the doughnut part of town. I'll bring some doughnuts, I'll be great. Perfect. And David Owen from the School of Government is joining us? Yes, he is. Fantastic. Thank you for setting that up. Yes, no problem. So just be on the lookout. Probably tomorrow afternoon sometime you'll receive an official invite to put on your calendars. And that was really all I had. Great. I just wanted to say, I know it's a small thing, but I appreciate the pictures that are in the staff reports now that's new. And I noticed that was consistent. I like it. It just adds a little, I know we all drive out and check things out, but it's nice, I think from the public's perspective, it gives a lot more context, so keep that up. Sure, because the staff reports are posted on the website. So a lot of people read the staff reports in addition to the commissioners. And we may change the format a little bit here and there. Over the next month or two, we're kind of tweaking exactly how we want to do this. If you have any feedback, let us know, but we think we've got it down to where we like it. There might just be some minor changes. I will say, I would like to have the PDR density figure shown on the zoning context maps. So we have a range, so you don't prefer the range, you want that? No, I would prefer the actual density figure. So much fighting is done around between four and eight. It helps to know. If you can do it, if you can't, you just want to have it. We'll look into that. You know, the devil's always in the details. I realize if you can't do it, you can't do it. But we'll definitely see what we can do about that. Anything else? This meeting's adjourned. Thank you. This program is pretty good. Which thing? It was. Oh, yeah. I thought it was. I thought it started off with a little fin, but it got better. It got better. I was concerned. It was. I was going to get the whole movie going in class.