 Hello, and welcome to the digital free thought radio hour and WZO radio 103.9 LP FM here in Knoxville, Tennessee. We're recording this on Sunday morning, January 21st, 2024. I'm Larry Rhodes or DJ doubter five. And as usual, we have our co host one bad on the line with us. Hello, I'm back. It's the one bad. Staying warm. Yeah. Digital free thought radio hours to talk radio show about atheism, free thought, rational thought, humanism and the sciences. And conversely, we'll also talk about religion, religious faiths, God's holy books and superstition. And if you get the feeling that you're the only non believer in your town, well, you're just not. You're in Knoxville in the middle of the Bible belt. We have a group of over 1100 of us where the atheist society of Knoxville or ASK. And we'll tell you more about us after the mid show breaks. So be sure to stick around on that. What's our topic today? I want to talk about snowflakes today. And what better time to talk about snowflakes when our towns respectively are entirely covered with a layer of ice. How's your many states? Yeah, true, true, true. Many states, though, I think the Tennesseans and anyone below us are more prone to complain about it than anyone else. Right. How has been your winter stay? Oh, it's fine. I just feel cooped up in the house. I'm getting spring favor in the winter. 10,000 percent. My job had basically shut down because, you know, our town is, you know, fairly rural. We don't have a lot of people shaving the snow off. So our main roads are good, but all the side roads, all the suburb areas, all the back roads are completely covered in slush that quickly became compacted ice. And as a result, it was just not safe as dean by our management to go to work. So we've been home working from home for the last week. And my job is working from home. I've been doing that for a year and a half, two years to over two years now. So it didn't really affect my work schedule. You didn't affect your motorcycle expeditions or anything like that? That it did affect. OK, OK. And matter of fact, I'm a little worried about my bike. It's outside. This is the first winter I've had it outside. I've got it covered and then I'll have a tent over it. But it got down to minus three. It usually would not be subjected to that type of cold. Four cars in the show. When you say minus three, given that we are kind of a science show, is that Fahrenheit or Celsius? What are you talking about? Fahrenheit. It's OK, OK, OK. Continue. That's what that's pretty cool. Pretty cold. And all the snow built up on the tent out there and collapse the tent. So my bike is under a tent and some freezing weather. So we'll see how it works out in the spring. I don't want to do much to it in this weather. It's currently 14 degrees out there, so I'm not going out there to work with it. OK, so we've been consistently under, I would say, at least negative two Celsius. That's like a roughly 32, maybe less than that, way less than that in Fahrenheit. But though we've gone as low as negative 19 Celsius. Wow. It's been a very Celsius. Yeah, it's been a very dry cold. And I am a very social person, or at least when I'm at home when I'm at work, I can do my work solitary in my teams. But when I'm home or when I'm off work, I like to be hanging out with people. Disc golf or rock climbing or I'm making music or I like to just go out and walk. There's like a nice little group of people we can play roller hockey with. I think I'll find or those are Jim that I go to on a regular basis. There's classes I go to on a regular basis. All that shut down because we can't have any modes of travel. And I can tell you something. Being locked up has made me more appreciative of, you know, recognizing why people need a community. And typically when they find them in church to just have like people that can consistently talk with because it's not fun being cooped up. I can feel myself as a social creature reaching out. You know, well, thank goodness for the internet. I mean, we can do things like this show. Yeah. Weekly. Have a good chat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can imagine just you in a fireplace. Like so many people like up North and Canada and Alaska and stuff. You know, just I could not deal with that very long. No, it's very true. Not only that, but I found myself with more time thinking to myself. And that's, it wasn't like COVID, but like just more time cooped up. Looking at nature around me. And it's just this wide expanse. And out my window, I get little flecks of snow that hits. And some of them look like little snowflakes. And I thought, man, I forgot about snowflakes. Don't you forget about things. Like kids will be like, Hey, I'm going to draw a turkey. And they'll draw their hand. And you're like, that looks nothing like a turkey. I mean, you've seen a turkey before, but you remember you did that when you were a kid. I remember the same thing where you would fold up the paper, cut it. And then rip it out. You've done this before. And you'd be like, it's a snowflake. There's no other kid just like this. Right. As a kid, I looked at this window and I couldn't believe it because there were just these beautiful, beautiful little crystalline little specks of ice on my, on my window. All of them so intricate. All of them so beautiful. And I thought to myself, this is crazy. You're telling me all the thing, all the snow, or at least not a majority of it, but there's a, there's so many flakes that are like this beautiful thing. The list lasts for like a couple of seconds and then be gone after it won't keep melts out of nature. If I didn't know any better. And if I was prone to believe in a guy that created the universe, I would have no better evidence to present of the intentional design of the universe than looking at snowflakes. And you know what? I'd be almost hard pressed to, to deny that if I didn't have better. What do you call it? A better understanding of how. A better scientific understanding of how they occur. Yeah. Like crystallization and nuclear and stuff like that. Like nucleation is what I mean, but like be able to see if, if I didn't have that understanding, I would look at a person who said, these snowflakes are proof that a God exists. And I'd be like, man, they got a good point. What do you think? Well, yeah. If you were told from your very earliest childhood that God designed everything, then it's a given. Right. Especially if I went through the practice of actually making a snowflake myself. Like if I gave, if you gave me a piece of fold of paper and I went through the machinations of cutting it and then unfolding it and then seeing the design that I am put it and be like, this is a snowflake and that's snowflakes. Well, then clearly this looks designed and that looks designed. Right. Like I'm imitating something to the point where I can conflict the two in terms of their origin. And I don't, and you've made up, you made a good point. If you were taught like that as a kid, it's not a difficult thing to accept, but also there's a, the way how I think about this, and this is the main point I wanted to bring up. There's, there is a, there's a woeful element to this where if you are standard of how reality works is based off of something that doesn't care about how reality works, then your degree of awe when you look at reality might be the same as someone who really, really appreciates it and understands like, man, I just can't tell you how all these pressure and temperature differences and the small little contaminants in the air cause these differences in nucleation patterns that lead to all these different forms of crystallization in, in snow. And we can like even make our own snow knowing that we know how these processes work. That's how we make artificial snow. And, and like when we look at nature, we can see, yeah, there are going to be, there's going to be slight overlaps, but everything's going to be consistently different because the situations of how they were crystallizing were different. And that's kind of interesting too. And then a person who's like, oh, that's too much words for me. I just want to believe in God and say God did it. We both have the same appreciation for, ah, but I feel like it's in completely opposite different points of view because for one person, they are appreciating a, a, a really cool, testable, objective series of phenomena, physics and, and machinations that lead to like a universe that we're all relying on. Like our bodies work on the same phenomena. Like in terms of like how particles interact with each other, water physics, temperature, pressure controls. Like this is cool. Like, and we're part of this too down to like how our bodies work and how medicine works. This is amazing. I want to learn more about it. Or you can do the, but I don't want to know anything about the spiritual stuff because there's not anything testable there. But on the flip side, you have people who are like, I don't care about your science stuff. I only care about the spiritual thing because it's the nice compact answer that gives me a nice warm feeling in my heart and gives me solace for when if I die, I get to spend time with the spiritual thing even though I can't test that. After I die. You don't have your answer until after you die. Right. It kind of reminds me of like people who, who don't like each other. I mean, there's so much animosity between in my mind, those who are unwilling to change their mind on dogma versus those who are willing to be a bit more with those who aren't willing to be more empathetic and engage with people who have dogmatic points of view in a more potentially less argumentative fashion, despite the fact that they are right, the approach that they're doing it is actually causing a backfire effect for more people who have that dogma aren't willing to, you know, cross the barrier. It's not, and that's not their fault either, but it's just, it's a shame that we have so much conflict over something that we both appreciate, which is snowflakes. We both like snowflakes, right? Mm-hmm. Our reasonings might be completely different, but like, can we just agree that snowflakes are awesome? And then, can we not agree that like, if you knew how snowflakes are actually made and that we can make our own and that we can like figure out why these things exist and then we can use that same logic on other stuff too consistently to understand how other things in nature work? Like, isn't that amazing too? Yeah, and given the conditions, you know, the weather conditions and temperatures and stuff that snowflakes are inevitable. Yes. It's not like, you know, he just decides to make them and they're there. We can recreate it because we know the situations in which they are made. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like the, this is the part where I feel like Krishna would say, well, why can't scientists just appreciate the fact that God made everything? Here's the contention because if we, if we, if I think a Christian can appreciate the science behind snowflakes, along with their God belief that they want to, I don't feel like they're contradictory, but someone who's secular minded would have a problem taking on the spiritual element of the Christian's point of view. And my opinion, one of the hard parts I would have is so you're telling me God is sitting down cutting spiritual paper and making brand new snowflakes for every, every year. We're ready to get the time. Yeah. They've been in a amount of time. And I'm like, and then while he's doing that there's little notifications on his spiritual phone being like, Brandon, a three-year-old kid has cancer. It's like, I'll deal with that later. New microbe needs to be designed to kill 40,000 people. It's like, I'm not, I'm making snowflakes over here. Leave me alone, guys. It's going to land somewhere in the North Pole. It's going to be beautiful. What gets me is the sheer volume of time of the eternal creature, like even in this universe alone, if, if, if there was what, 14 and a half billion years old and humanity, even according to the Bible, have all been around for what, 7,000 years, 6,000 years. And Jesus is coming next next year, next week, next whatever. That means that the entire lifespan of humanity on Earth would only be like 8,000 years. But he has the eternity to exist before man and an eternity to exist after man. I guess he's got a lot of time to do snowflakes then. Jump forward, make a false snowflake and come back. But what a total incredible waste of time. It's a big waste of time, unless if it's sort of like a, so you were bringing this up, you brought this point up, Larry. You had mentioned this, and I think it's kind of funny. You had mentioned that if, if the heaven was real and you spend eternity there, you're going to get bored eventually. No matter what you do. I don't know what you do. Let's say you decided to perfect an instrument. Okay. The piano or guitar or whatever. Or the triangle. How long would it take you? A hundred years? A thousand? Maybe four years if it's the only thing I'm doing, right? Or maybe you wanted to listen to every piece of music ever written. How long would that take you? A thousand years? What are you going to do for your 12 billionth birthday? Make snowflakes, Larry. See? A trillionth birthday. They're different. Every single one is different, Larry. Every single one is different. You're making a brand new piece of art, and it lands in a different space, and it melts, and it's gone. It's art. It's temporary, and it's gone. That gives you a new appreciation of the length of the human life. The 80, 90 years, as compared to that unique piece of art that is a snowflake. There is a really nice collary here, or analogy here, or parallel train of thought with Santa's workshop, right? Santa gives you toys if you're good, but he doesn't make the toys. He has elves make the toys, and he's not making PlayStation 5s, right? All the toys that parents typically get their kids either have a serial number or a barcode or made in China, or some sort of tag where you can track where they came from. A receipt, if you will. If we were to believe that, okay, at least the coal that he gets has to come from somewhere, right? Well, coal is mined by people, and there's no coal up in North Pole. He's getting this stuff from somewhere. He has people helping them. He has elves helping them. What are the elves doing all year round? They're making the wooden toys that kids are like, okay, well, thanks. I appreciate that. Where's my next Apple app or tablet? They're mining the coal. They're getting Santa Claus the stuff to make Santa be Santa, right? They're feeding the reindeer. They're doing the same task. So when you're in heaven, what if it was like a toy factory situation? God's the face of the company, right? But he needs people answering the phones or not answering the phones, or he needs people like maintaining the IT department. He needs people fixing the blessings and making those tokens. Exactly. It's all departments in a giant building, a corporation. And if you're like, you know what? I don't want to smite anybody today. I don't want to help a boxer win a blood fight. Or even combat. Can I just do a nice easy job? It's like, yeah. Snowflake department. It's on the 300,000 floor. So Santa has his elves and God has his angels for producing whatever he wants produced. Correct. It's not going to work. It makes sense that Santa Claus and his elves and stuff are like training wheels for kids for later on when they switch their belief to a more powerful being. Father figure. If anything, the Santa Claus story should be awareness to kids that parents will lie to you out of the sake of tradition and you can either continue to lie and give it to your kids as part of a tradition or you can recognize that people in authority, despite having your best interest in their heart, don't necessarily practice it in the most. What makes you wonder also how long they would hold on to that God. Santa belief. If nobody told him it wasn't true. Correct. Because they usually get that information around age seven or so somebody other kids or whatever the parents will tell them it's not true, but not the case in the not the case in religion. Right. They don't come by and get that information later on generally. And the weird thing is it becomes culturally acceptable. Like if you were a 30 year old person who still believed in Santa you'd be mocked for it. Right. But if you're four years old, it almost be something enshrined and protected. Parents would get angry if you try to tell the kid who's five years old. Hey, there's no Santa. But if you're 25 years old, it's like hey, there's no Santa. What do you mean? It's like you should have known that. Yeah. But culturally, we've made a decision though, however implicit it has been that there is a point where we can make fun of you for believing this because it's now a point of harm for you to continue to maintain this belief right though we've never done the same thing with religion or at least with a lot of dogmatic points of view and certainly not here in America. Not here in America. Definitely other countries. That's absolutely true though. I have seen this happen. If I was a kid who learned at seven years old or five or really young age that Santa Claus wasn't real, I wouldn't be inherently disappointed. In fact, I figured that out myself. Like I someone said, Santa visits you in your chimney and I'm like, our house doesn't have a chimney. We're poor. We have like a main line heater. But if you're telling me Santa Claus is visiting us, let me just put some paper in front of the heater. And if I see footprints in it tomorrow after Christmas Eve, I'll know whether Santa Claus visited us or not. And then my mom said Santa Claus came and I'm like, I don't see footprints on the main line heater. I've made the connection, but I'm all right because I still got the walkie talkies I wanted. It's all fine with me. It's gravy. I don't need a Santa Claus if he's not actually giving me stuff. It's all good. So that was my whole loop and it wasn't harmful. I just moved on with the rest of my life. But I feel like with Christianity, what happens is you don't have that opportunity to move on with the rest of your life. You're constantly changing your paradigm from how snowflakes look to how why trees exist to why certain people exist in certain parts of the world, why you're better than other people, why you are the chosen, why your family decided to marry these people, why you decided to marry this person. Everything in your life has been dictated, whether you recognize it or not, by this mindset that you've had that you never had the opportunity to just be like, whoa, I've invested so much in this that I can't just move on with the rest of my life because my life now is this. I've committed so much that it's painful. It causes me hurt or like anxiety or stress just to try a different trend of life. And it's so culturally focused here that like other people in other countries when they hear us talk about this one, John Richards here just talk about why you guys, why are there so many Christians in America? It's like because it's this whole echo chamber that we are visibly trying to break down step by step and it goes all the way down to how we look at snowflakes. And so that's why, you know, it's important that we speak up on things like this and recognize that there's no fiction that will be greater than the fact of how objective reality works. And like when you come to an appreciation of like how mechanics work in science and then go back to a narrative of like, well, that God created everything, you realize there's a difference between an answer and an explanation and once you have an explanation, you're like, oh, but this, once you can appreciate an explanation, that's when you start saying to yourself, I can't go back to the God thing. It's not as satisfying. It doesn't explain things as well. It's just an answer. It's like having, you know, and have faith is just a statement to get you to stop questioning. Yes. It doesn't give you answers. But you can believe anything on faith, any religion on faith. So when they say just have faith, that just means stop questioning. Yes. I found, yeah, and it's so scary that a Christian could hear that and be like, well, it's not like the Bible says that. It's like, no, the Bible does say that. Jesus says that. Like you're supposed to believe like a child. You're literally supposed to be a sheep. Blessed are those who don't question. Blessed are those who don't test. Like the guy who came when Jesus returned is like, hey guys, I'm back. And one of the followers was like, I don't, I mean, can I at least even see your hands? I saw you nailed on a cross. You're telling me that to you? Like, it's like, well, blessed are the people who don't have to see my hands. He's like, someone write that down. 400 years later, you guys are all illiterate. It's where I should have gotten some literate people illiterate fishermen. Oh, well, yeah. And what's funny in the story of Thomas in the Bible, you know, when he, Thomas says, you know, he doesn't believe it. He wants to feel the the wounds. Yeah. Jesus basically shames him into not feeling the wounds. Oh, yeah. He never does actually feel the wounds. Yeah. Downing Thomas is a whole point of ridicule for people because a guy wanted to ask some questions. It went from, you know, that's actually legitimately good question to ask when someone who is the most important person in your life apparently shows up again and in a world where people can lie and trick other people and be like, hey, can I at least just make sure you're the person that I've dedicated my life to? Well, especially when also in the scriptures, it says none of the disciples recognize him. I know when he comes back. So he could be like his his brother. Right. You know, or something. And I just want to be completely clear. Like this was like everybody saw him die. Right. There's no internet. There's no newspaper boy being like Jesus rise is like he woke up devastated three days after the fact that his Messiah is dead and here's another guy being like, hey, by the way, I'm back and I'm your Messiah. I'm like, what? I don't believe you, dude. Let me look at this. You don't look like him. No one else recognizes it. Let me prove it. It's like, oh, we're going to make fun of you for the rest of your existence. I'm like, I don't believe you, man. I don't know about this. I really do think that it's good to ask questions goes back to like absolutely. You can look at a snowflake and say, hey, God made that or you can look at a snowflake and say, you know what? This is cool. How was it made? Right? And you can appreciate the ignorance until you get to a better understanding of how forces of nature work or you can satisfy yourself with just that answer in the back of a book. The answer in the back of the book being like a math book where it's like you just have some texts in the back of the book and you're like answer to four seven the answer to five is six and the answer to four is variable C and he's like, I know math. It's like, you don't know math. You just know a couple of answers in the back of the book. Once the questions change or if you have to go to a different field of math, you have no equipment ready to pass. You might pass this test because you had the answers in the back of a book, but you don't know math, right? In the same way you can look at a snowflake and be like, well, God made it and you move on with the rest of your life. That might get you through America, right? But when America starts dealing with more difficult questions, we'll feel involved with culture as a culture or has become more difficult questions. We understand different problems for different parts of the world or even different problems across or until you need some snow on a mountain that doesn't have snow in the winter and you have to make a snow machine. That's not going to get you there. If you have to make a snow machine for the Olympics and you're like, well, God makes snowflakes. How do we make snow? It's like someone hire an atheist. The answer is nobody can make snowflakes with God. So just give up on it. Right, right, right. You just make a snow machine. It's going to work, guys. Trust me. That should be so clear. Just looking at how we know how we can make snowflakes should be proof of enough for you to understand that this is a system that we can understand well. One point we want to make is ignorance is not to be ashamed of everybody's born into ignorance. Maintaining or willful ignorance is something to be ashamed of. Yes. If you need answers, go find the answers. Don't just accept somebody's claim, especially if it's a supernatural thing. Very true. If you were taught your entire life that Santa Claus did exist and everyone in your town made you believe that consistently, all the way until you're in your late teens, early adulthood, and then you finally moved out of that town and people are like, hey, Santa Claus doesn't exist. There might be the sense of being mocked, but honestly it's the culture that you're in is fault. And it's not you personally, unless if you aren't willing to show the evidence that's presented to you to show that perhaps you were from an environment that biased your outlook. Anyway, I think we're getting close to the bottom half. I saw you look up. He saw me look at the clock. I saw you look at the timer. I know that timer look. Yeah. Okay. This is the Digital Freethought Radio Hour and WOZO Radio 103.9 LPF. I'm here in Knoxville, Tennessee. We'll be right back after this short break. Welcome back to the second half of the digital Freethought Radio Hour. I'm doubter 5 and we're on WOZO Radio 103.9 LPF. I'm here in Knoxville, Tennessee. And with us we have the Wombat. Let's take just a moment though to talk about the Atheist Society of Knoxville. ASK was founded in 2002. We're in our 21st year now, 22nd going on. And we have over 1100 members. We have weekly in-person meetings every Tuesday evening in Knoxville's whole city at Barley's Taproom in Pizzeria. Look for us inside at the high top tables if it's cold outside or if it's warm outside on the deck. You can find us online on Facebook, meetup.com or KnoxvilleAtheist.org. It's just that easy. If you don't live in Knoxville you should still go to meet up and do a search for an Atheist group in your town. Good one. Start one. Start one. Wombat, where do you want to pick up? I saw a really cool YouTube video that I wanted to touch on. It's not about snowflakes, but it has the same nature of how we can let our initial biases color how we see things. And the more we invest in that bias the harder it is for us to let go of it. And it's such a human condition that I feel like religion is very aware or the best ones that stick around are very aware of that nature, that human nature that we have and structure themselves in such a way to make sure that people make those initial investments as early as possible as fervently as possible so that it's much harder to let go at the end of a realization point or a critical point of conscious. What I brought up was a YouTube video called, and hear me out, it's called Satan's Guide to the Bible. Let me make sure I get the right term. It's called Satan's Guide to the Bible. And the cool through line here is okay, what if we were to say, regardless of how you were brought up, let's put you in the deepest echo chamber you are possibly in and we will take the Bible as a point of fact. In fact, we will use all of the people in the Bible as objective witnesses for everything and take just this book as the only point of evidence to prove that just this book still has a significant amount of problems and then who else to present it as not an atheist presenting the information and pointing out the flaws in the Bible or a biblical scholar but in fact Satan himself or the adversary because he's like there's two different people. I'm not confusing me with two completely different people here but if you were to take the characters of Satan in the Bible and have him explain using the book as a point of source the only really the true source in the Bible that there's conflicts within how the book is structured in terms of its errancy in terms of how vile God figure is in both Old Testament which is often taken as a well of course but the fact that Old Testament God may punish you temporarily for for crime you know cut off like kill your family burn your house down turn your wife into a pillar of salt the New Testament God will literally burn you an internal fire for all of eternity like there's a much for the sake of torture and no remedial processes there for pain just for pain for eternity like there's a there's a whole magnitude of evil vileness in the New Testament God yeah a lot of people point to the New Testament God no it's completely opposite that this New God is had came up with a whole bunch of new fetishes he's very bad but also just the idea of like what is the messaging of this Bible and what secrets or what what deliberately overlooked parts of the Bible exists that pastors know about who go through seminary so that they don't have to be caught off guard when members of their congregation bring it up to them and how they can always work through the nature of how to present data to them in a way that's not necessarily fully I would say open with with the nature of the book it's not like they're reading one chapter at a time going all the way through the Bible they're just hitting like the greatest hits and deliberately walking away around the points where the Bible endorses slavery or the Bible talks about I can't say the word on YouTube but sexual assault and then also smashing baby's heads on rocks and then the concept of witches existing and like the fact that Israelites were basically a sect or a type of canonite which if you that doesn't blow your mind you should watch this video Satan's Guide to the Bible because it turns the entire concept of who God's chosen people are entirely on its head because now you have basically just one of many groups of different tribes that believe in various different kinds of gods now you understand why God's like there's no other gods that are conforming it's like what are the gods are you talking about God don't listen to that I'm the only God and we can't have them eating the fruit because then they will become like us who's us and punctuated throughout this entire video and this is getting to my point is these child songs these biblical songs like Bible study music and ditties that reminded me when I was in Bible study growing up and I would sing these songs like like our gods an awesome God left foot right foot my scripture is my artillery there's some songs where I'm thinking like whoa in the context of being an atheist for so long that I've been now and leaving these songs again I'm actually really creeped out that not only did I sing these songs but I didn't understand the weight behind them like the intention behind them I thought I was just having a fun time with friends and we're all having a good time just singing songs and it was great but I actually turned out that like I was being committed or I was being inculcated inculcated more or less into the system that was deliberately targeting kids in a way that made kids feel involved and accepted in a way to further perpetuate this really terrible system of false hope and man to see parents do that still even to today it hurts unquestioningly because they think they're doing the best thing but like even when you present the evidence or even when the evidence exists I mean it's been existing for a while now it's just a shame and to get to the same level in the same way we can both Christian and the sciences can look at the snow the indoctrination of children in churches and feel a sense of woe that I feel like can't be matched by someone who is in the same religion but outside of the religion would be matched so a Muslim would look at a bible study with a bunch of Christians and be like man that's terrible I can't believe they're forcing all those children to not believe in Allah but believe in Jesus Christ and I'm like I also feel woe but the Christians are looking at your bible study versions your Koran versions where they're bowing to God pointing to Mecca five times a day and they think that's a terrible thing too but we're getting to the same point from completely different journeys and I just wish we could come to the same conclusions like we both agree that some of flicks are awesome we both agree that childhood indoctrination is bad I don't think they would agree with that they would if it was a different religion that's true but they do believe in it wholeheartedly for their own religion that's the hang up that's why I say the scientific approach is better because obviously when they're pointing at a snow thing it says my God made this the Muslim guy is saying yeah my God made this and the Christians saying yeah my God made the snowflake and they can't both be right well technically since Judaism and Christianity and Islam are all based on the same religion based on the same God they just call them different things but it's all y'all way and it all comes from the ancient Jewish texts I mean they there's Jewish religion is like God 1.0 Christianity is God 2.0 and Islam is God 3.0 they just keep changing and adding to it and making it the way they want it to be and saying it's the word of God but now if you were to jump with a different religion like Hinduism or Jainism or something like that then of course it would be totally different Gods and they would still be supporting childhood indoctrination for that particular God right I'll throw this out too I agree that yeah it's all Judaism but a Hindu and a Jainist or someone with a Pasifarian point of view can all point at the same snowflake and be like it's my God that made that they can't all be right they can all be wrong and it's only the science guy who's saying actually I can just make some snowflakes for you right now would you like to see how they're made I have a whole machine that does it for it we use in the Olympics it's pretty common knowledge how these things are made and it can happen naturally too getting back to the inerrancy of the video pointing out in the errancies of the Bible did they give you any particular examples that you'd like to bring to the show yeah and I think it might be useful to bring up the example that you also had where it's like Judaism is like 1.0 Christianity is like 2.0 Islam is like 3.0 through the video I was able to come to an appreciation that Christianity as we've come to know it did not happen in a linear trajectory in fact the New Testament there's a section of the book that shows the books of the Old Testament versus the books of the New Testament and I always, I think when I was under the impression that was at least like a half and half split but it's actually it's not even close it's about 80-20 and when you think about it like that you're like whoa most of this book is this Old Testament so how did we which is the Jewish text and how did we throw all this out hahahaha for basically a couple of cover pages and like an epilogue like this seems it seems like we should be focusing more on the Old Testament stuff and people are like no no no we don't listen to that so like the issue of like inerrancy is an interesting one only and let me get to this one more point it's not 1.0 2.0, 3.0 from like Jewish Christian to Islam 1.0, 0.46 0.4614 because this bifurcated substantially so many times there are thousands of different versions of Christianity alone correct, correct much less Judaism and Islam absolutely and the scary thing is the well I'd say scary but like the idea of people who look into conflicts that occur in the Bible tend to do so from a Protestant point of view the biblical scholars that exist are largely those that are just from one bifurcation of Christianity which is those who don't follow the Catholic point of view and Catholic point of view has its completely own different you know set of like skeletons of deposit and it's only for as you mentioned roughly 20% of a holy book and then in the video they also talk about the people who talk about the Old Testament and like the old Jewish scholars and you're like oh my gosh I'm only barely aware of all the problems that are in the Bible from my Protestant point of view you're telling me Catholic souls have a problem and the Jewish have a problem and like we're only talking about 20% of the book that we're largely familiar with there's a lot of problems in this book yeah to the point where like people are publishing New York Times best selling books on a regular basis there's conventions where people come together and talk about like the problems that are in this book on a yearly basis multiple years they'll have multiple throughout the entire year it's a interesting conflict specific points of inerrancy of errancy of inerrancy is that there is a oh go ahead there's no problem no mistakes so errancy is where what we're going to bring up here correct and the reason we're bringing that up is there's two points of view one is that the book of God is completely perfect and there is no error in it whatsoever and that the second point of view is that's not the correct point of view that's not true and the point of conflict that comes to the Bible is that a lot of the writing in the Bible is not consistent with people who would have been able to write that book at that point in time and so what you have is basically this concept of informed prophecies where David is explaining how things happened in his not only in this timeline but what will happen in the future and people are saying oh look at David accurately prophesizing that the Pharisees will do these certain things that these troops will move this direction that cultural move in this way and he didn't know that because he wouldn't be around for 400 years after the fact unless and this is what the counter culture says is well he didn't one he didn't write that who ever did knew that because he wrote it way after the fact and just wrote it in place of David that also brings up the problem with prophecy in the New Testament whoever who ever wrote the New Testament had the Old Testament at hand they could easily have written anything they wanted to to fulfill the prophecy of the Old Testament right and then the question becomes well how does that prove the books in area the problem is is you run into situations where you have a more easy solution to writing a prophecy which is basically just write it for someone I can write a prophecy for what happened from COVID time all the way from 9-11 to like the war in Afghanistan to desert storm I'm sorry errant what's the phrase that I'm looking for Larry sell to me one more time I'll try not to mix it up what I was just going to say inerrancy the book is inerrant right that's what if it's inerrant it means it has no errors correct that's what Christians are saying their book is saying that their book is inerrant but there's conflicts that come with how the book is written and with regard to validating that the people who wrote it actually did write it we have no idea who any of the original authors were and this is the point of inerrancy because Christians will argue their name is on the book how do you mean you don't know who wrote the book how many Luke's and John's do you have in Middle East back 2000 years ago Matthew's you have a lot of Matthew's back then not only that but like self-described fishermen who are illiterate who write not only in the who aren't writing the book in the original language of the people who spoke that language or at that time but wrote it in Greek which is in a completely different part of the world and you're telling me that these illiterate fishermen wrote in Greek yeah illiterate fisherman then moved to a completely different part of the world walked there and then wrote a book after mastering the language in Greek and then that was what was published or many years after the fact like there's points of contention when you look at the way how every single book in the bible is written and the problem is you know there's enough examples where the easier solution is other people wrote the book right and people wrote the book period just other people wrote the book and they already knew the stuff that happened in the past and then just put it in after the fact and that's why it seems like there's prophecies that's a much easier explanation doesn't necessarily mean that it's the true one but it's the one that comes with the least number of assumptions and there is a rule that I typically tend to follow and it's you might have heard as Aucum razor doesn't mean the simplest answer is the most accurate one it's the one that comes with the least number of assumptions right and so the biggest assumption is that there's a miraculous supernatural god that exists that loves us that's making snowflakes in his toy shop every day you know every single flake that falls to the ground or people after the fact wrote history put it into a holy book as if they were the actual characters at play and did so in such a poor manner that it was very easily determined that one they didn't write the letters and the books that they claim to have from their point of view and two they're writing them in different languages that you like they didn't know Greek there like you should know that you should know that and then three like in the book they say they're not literate like what's the problem the problem in the literacy here too it's Mesopotamian era bronze kids guys so it's just it's a weird problem it's a weird problem that well that's a number of issues with that's just the technical part I mean there's the logical parts of the stories themselves that make no sense like saying before the show that God wanted Pharaoh to let his people go right why does God an omniscient I'm the powerful person who created the universe and do anything he wants need Pharaoh's permission right it could have just poofed all of the Israelites from where they were poofed where he wants them you know that's it why does he need to kill people why does he need to rain down you know plagues onto the earth killing the first born sons yeah all that it's just and the thing that really gets me about that is at the point where Pharaoh was about ready to let him go yeah God hardened his heart so he wouldn't so he had to go through all this plague stuff and killing the first born and when it was not necessary at all all of these unlogical things miss miscarriages of logic you know are in the Bible and that's just one story no let me tell you something the entire Bible kind of strikes me as like the Marvel cinematic universe where at the time this was probably the coolest thing that came out you know when people are like have you read the Bible it's like no I can't I can't read it's like okay I'll find something to read the Bible for you because that's the way how it mostly went so you sit down and you get this cool experience like that to you and you're like whoa and those superpowers and you try to tell your friends about it and they're like man this guy really likes the Bible like he's like almost like a Bible alive if you will and then it's the same thing with Marvel you see like the endgame Marvel's endgame you see like Thanos you're like whoa what a cool villain and then there's a period of time there's a period of time where you like think back on like the stuff that happened and you're like wait a second Thanos want to snap his fingers and kill half of half the universe why didn't he just snap his fingers and make twice as much stuff if he's worried about space more planets yeah he could have just made twice as much stuff why did he kill half as much people to take that doesn't even long-term solve the problem this is a dumb plan you can do the same thing with the Bible you're like wait a second God hardened the Pharaoh's heart God put an apple within reaching distance and Eve God like did like why didn't you just why did you just make if you wanted to have slaves why don't you just make robots that like to do work for people why didn't he put the fruit tree on the moon yeah why did you give us two nipples God why did you give man and women nipples that makes no sense if we were creating your image there's a lot of problems here is he not omniscient didn't he know what was going to happen did he allow it more like he just set a trap for humanity in the Garden of Eden correct there's also something that's a paradise if you have a trap in it but what it does speak to is poor writing because there's an oversight maybe there was a writer's revision meeting one day where you know a guy in a robe and Mesopotamia was like you know what you should come up with a reason why the Pharaoh still decided to try to get back all those slaves because it seems like he's a cool dude he seems like oh okay you know what I'm just going to let him go I'm already rich we're going to be okay let's let him leave it's like no we got it we have to come up with a reason why God would still like harden his heart right it's like okay fine we'll put this edit in it's not going to have to any problems it's still a great book we'll still make a lot of millions of rubies or whatever pebbles are lacra or whatever money they had back then but the whole idea is it's it reached to me of revisionist writing which is in the heart of how the Bible came to be right it's like oral traditions that count written down eventually but and then through committee manufacturing through through miss copying or even through intention where people literally wanted to change the word of God so that would support their views absolute and they're in the rule right and I feel like the Marvel stories even though we take them as a point of fiction are constructed in no different of a capacity like if I were to explain to you the entire MCU timeline I'm going to mess up stuff left and right I'm going to get the order of movies wrong I'm going to get the order of events wrong but if I'm one of four people that you've talked to about the MCU to the point where you documented what I say there's going to be conflicts in how we have narrated the story such that the two versions of Genesis aren't even in order with regard to how the order of the universe was created right and like the four stories of the people who apparently through their own admission like saw Jesus Christ live and die you know or and then live again and who knows what else afterwards their stories aren't even lining up and when we realize like these people who you've interviewed for the movies weren't even the people who seem and saw the movies you interviewed it like their kids or their grandkids who just heard stories maybe about their grandparents because they weren't actually there at the time movies because of COVID there's no more movie theaters anymore yeah the game telephone all over again yeah you're thinking like wait a second so you're telling me that when I finally made my final report based off the grandkids who saw the MCU movie that this final report is in is inherent it's perfect in every way there's no way in fact it's going to wreak up all these hallmarks of problems that would happen from playing a game of telephone and when we look at the Bible we see the game of telephone we see people who aren't the people writing the books we see people who couldn't possibly be in the same region or the same timeline we see conflicting stories we see people pointing at the same thing and telling completely different stories like there's not a compatibility here and yet when you bring that up to seminaries or what you go to and in Satan's Guide to the Bible in seminary schools they have a means of dealing with those conflicts which is ignore them and it's a concerted effort on their part to say you either believe it or you don't believe it and if you don't believe it you're reading the Bible wrong in fact they say like right-minded people read the Bible rightly and if you if you don't you're wrong and I'm like put that burden on me even though I'm pointing out a doubt that's so messed up and if the listening would like to get some more details and a lot of the problems with the Bible I would recommend a book called Miss Quoting Jesus by Bert Ehrman that's E-H-R-M-A-N Bart excellent book he also has put out like a dozen other books that's a good one to get started on anyway and Ehrman's also featured not as a main point of citation but as like featured in the video that we're referring to Satan's Guide to the Bible and you'll be like who's Bert Ehrman you'll find out by the end of the video it's actually really really good watch I highly recommend it and the cool thing is it stays compacted it's not pulling any sources from anywhere else it's just saying listen if we took this book for what it is let's just read it I'm a character from the Bible I'm not even looking at this objectively outside if we are in this Bible locked in there's still problems there's still a lot of logic of it all right right this doesn't look like a perfect story if you want a perfect story if you want a perfect story let's see what's a perfect story Larry would you say your book is perfect I know it may have some perfect ones in it but okay I don't think there's anything ever written a perfect story but I'm trying to think but nothing's coming to me yeah like any points of literature that I would recommend is like a better I can definitely think of better books I would almost say Romeo and Juliet comes to mind Romeo and Juliet that was pretty good okay okay I don't see many logical flaws in that one all right all right I mean I can definitely recommend some good comic books I think like Batman Year One works as a good book if you just want to see like or Hawkeye the I think 2017 version of Hawkeye from beginning to end that's a very nice compact story that like is drawn so cinematically that you feel like you're watching the movie but the it's character driven throughout the entire time and using a lesser known character so they can do a lot of flexibility with how everything is written but there's books that I'd recommend there's games that I'd recommend that all have better narratives are they perfect no but the flaws are what make them interesting and none of them advocate for slavery none of them advocate to indoctrinate your children and make them believe that snowflakes are for hobby projects by a supernatural God yeah one of the biggest things problems I have with Christianity is that the way that the followers always say that God is love I mean have they read the Bible I mean it's like all he does is think of things that would to kill us or give us plagues or I mean his most common interaction with humanity is to give us plagues he's passionate Larry that's what they mean by love love is passion haven't you ever been given a plague by the love of your life no no thank you okay but I can see where that might happen sure sure sure but I mean in one part and actually about three different passages he says that the Bible tells you that if you don't follow the exact words that are in the Bible God will force bring you so low you will eat your children I mean what kind of a loving God would even think about doing that much less bring it to fruition right it almost I mean in this grander context it just feels like God is just one of a bunch of evil gods that were worshiped wasn't actually real and he rules through fear and he was successful enough to get a bunch of people to believe in him and follow his will which was enacted by assuming that they were good and forcing very medieval justice on other people to the point where we are still suffering for it even up to today so if that was the great plan of the God it's it has to be an evil plan because it's only the forces of good science medicine that are understanding compassion empathy that are blocking and inhibiting this being right it's it's none of the none of the eel wills that Christians claim that are like or there are people who run to their gods like slavery misjustice tribalism or just rude people whatever whatever Christians don't like isn't what's being advocated in their book in fact if anything everything that they dislike is presented in their book as one of the hallmarks of how to behave or act don't harm people every single commandment in the book is broken in the book by the God by either by the God or by people who claim to speak or act for the God it's just an insane degree of juxtaposition and hypocrisy and so why do we put up with it and the question is we don't have to or the answer is we don't have to we have a better explanation for how things come better answers and we have better wings of conduct thankfully that our laws are governed by and even though Christians are trying to twist it back we are consistently progressively moving forward though we just wish we didn't have as much inhibition or deep dragging because we can all benefit from the advancements of society in this capacity and my main takeaway is snowflakes are beautiful go go look at them and understand why they are beautiful don't just take them for granted right yeah understand them get a basic understanding of how they how they form where they temperatures you have to have what kind of nucleus you have to have to get the crystals to form it's easy I mean it's one of the easiest things you can do you can buy a snow machine that makes snowflakes like you can buy this thing we know how these are made so like the same tools that we're using to make them is the same stuff that exists out of nature because at the end of the day we're just parts of nature just trying to figure out how it works that's it and one of the best quotes of us Carl Sagan is that we don't have to believe anymore we can we are at a point in humanity where we can understand and religion stops you from making that leap from belief to understand right it's like thanks for all the fish but we're good yeah do you have any listener comments may have come up no listener comments but I do recommend that anyone check out Satan's guys the Bible it's a really good book that I can't give to my I can't send the link to my mom because she would flip and it'd be like a whole four hour conversation oh really well maybe that conversation worth having bring some coffee with you oh my gosh like the four I know you have to pick your battles I gotta pick your battles Larry yeah but if you are free minded highly recommend you check it out there's some really cool stuff here wouldn't recommend using an argument but it's good stuff to know because it's good to know stuff period yeah and it's good to understand your the world that you're living in it causes less pain and more profit as it were this guy gave me a comment on my Pascal's wager video on YouTube I have a video called Pascal's wager is invalid anyway he said oh it's what if the God what if you get to the pearly gates and instead of finding Saint Peter you you find Thargrad the party demon and he asks you and not if you've been good but did you have a good time yeah I thought that was pretty fun hell yeah but that's part of Pascal's wager you know given the fact that you die and you have a soul and it goes somewhere after you die which is quite a stretch but I mean you can get to heaven and maybe you see Egyptian gods you know what was the name of that God again nobody knows oh he just made up a name called Thargrad that's a God that I can stand behind he's like did you have a good time yeah the Romans had a party God what was his name the God of wine and good time it starts with a D God our listeners will answer it in the comments Dionysus yeah that was pretty good the God of grapes and wine and parties that's what I was thinking yeah same God different names and to speak of conflicts throughout history look at the Roman Pantheon and the fact that Roman Pantheon affects how we live our lives as Christians that we have days of the week named after Roman gods and we have more and Nordic gods and our planets are named after it's such a bizarre hodgepodge it doesn't look like a perfect book it just looks like a bunch of people playing telephone that's it Larry we are so over time we got to close out now go ahead and tell us what we can do to find your works I'm on YouTube you can find me on let's chat on YouTube and I got a bunch of old school assy videos and I have a bunch of new podcasts just check them out if you want to and if not check out Satan's Guide to the Bible it's a really good video worth your an hour you'll be in you'll be indoctrinated a new level of understanding you can find my stuff online at digitalfreethought.com be sure to click on the blog button I have a book on Amazon called atheism what's it all about remember everybody is going to somebody else's hell the time to worry about is when they prove that heavens and hells and souls are real until then don't sweat it enjoy your life and we'll see you next Wednesday night at 7 o'clock here on the WOZO radio say bye everybody bye everybody and that's a wrap