 Hey Judy. Good morning. Good morning. How are you doing? Good. Well, let me grab my tea cup I'll do better in a minute. Cool. How is it in Portland today? It's been like rainy foggy kind of hockey yellow Last couple days and in the foreseeable future, so we have arrived at rainy Portland Is this a portion of your normal season? Yeah, pretty much It gets rainy and then and then what happens is there's a period where it's rainy, but But not awful. It's just like it rains and it clears up. It rains and it clears up it rains and it clears up So we're kind of there. So my forecast is for two days of sunshine in the next Two days of sunshine in the next week or nine days Okay Hey everybody Or some of my favorite people doing Jerry's in the Matrix, you know, I don't know where everybody else is. What's that logo? Is that think that's the Kiko labs logo, Charles? It is indeed. Nice. All right. So you're you're in the lab. That's great. Oh We're totally in the lab. Yeah, lots of bubbling test tubes and Petra dishes and Yeah, nice nice Yeah, so let's get it. Let's get ourselves organized Okay, what it what where do we want to start? Just want to see who's here. Okay. Good morning Morning Lauren, I guess it's good evening where you are, but It's afternoon, it's for Quite a manageable time. When does evening when does evening start is four o'clock the beginning of evening? Well now it's getting dark 530 ish so it's kind of shifted a bit. Yeah Um, I just want to say Pete. I'm excited about CSC collective sense commons and I feel like that's really relevant here. So just want to state that in a broad way Thanks. I'm resonating And I'm probably late on that Pete. What's that? What's that all about? I CSC is collective sense commons and the idea is that I feel like there's The idea is kind of a communications and informations commons for For organizations like OGM or a Kiko lab that are involved in collective sense making So I'm I've set up and then torn down and we'll set up again And and actually get it out a Matter-most server which is like sock, but open source and a media wiki Kind of for everybody you do use together is the idea nice Some of that stuff. I don't know what it means, but that's fine. I Think that's that's part of the joy here All right, do you um, Jerry, do you know if we're expecting anybody else? I Don't remember or know who was on Hanks Invite list because what the people are who are on this call had asked to participate in The organizing structuring part. I think it was Hank in Hamilton. Maybe yeah, and I know both of them are in a in a session today so I Think Hank might be able to join in 30 minutes, but I know Hamilton is out. He has Sold his soul to one of our clients for the for the time being Which I I guess is okay because they're they're paying for me to be here. So that's a good thing Very good so, yeah, I think again just in terms of getting organized and I point to the CSC but also just in general repositories and and various channels and platforms and forums and kind of getting a More of a sense of coherence and accessibility and discoverability within all that Yeah, and you know, I think that's I think that's right and The last conversation on Thursday and maybe you know part of being organized is also You know naming what we're what we're trying to organize, right? And there's a couple of things that and I'd love to just test this with you guys that And and I had to jump off so I don't know where you guys ended the Thursday, you know Thursday call but You know, there's this notion of Potentially that we have teams of people that are working on various projects or quests out in the out in the world, right? I think You know claws. This is like the perfect example here is You know the effort that you're you know that you're pursuing in terms of soil health and the food system and those sorts of things That's that's a intervention point That you believe is important that OGM and what OGM can be could potentially be a Resource to that intervention point whether it's providing You know any number of things, but that's but it but a quest is like an intervention into Into kind of the world as it exists today then we have, you know You know, maybe Peter we can define kind of this collective sense comments You know, that's something that you're building in the lab, right? If you will right it's in the it's in the laboratory And that's collective sense commons as a as a as a thing that you're building is something that Could be used on any number of quests, right? And as quests are happening and they realize that they need x y and z from something like, you know, CSC you know, they're communicating with that lab to And the lab is updating updating that kind of that shared You know the shared tools and infrastructure and I want to make sure that the lab as we talk about it is not only kind of technical software You know hardware systems those sorts of things, but it also could be um human software Right, and I think this is where we can you know, the lab could say here are the methodologies we use to Think about and create memes could be something that we do, right? Because the ability to create memes could be used on any number of quests. So Labs are for things that can be leveraged into generically into quests right Is kind of the way there and then You know Charles to connect to what you were talking about and what I think this group ultimately about is Is to establish the nervous system right the way in which quests and labs and members of the ogm community or the network of ogm can Have interoperability right because I think the nervous system is all about the interoperability of the pieces and ensuring and ensuring sort of You know that interoperability and then interoperability is everything from some sort of governance to talking about business models to talking about You know the system of ethics that I know that You know neil is on or this manifesto or you know charter So I think I think there's that piece. So you kind of have You know and I and I skipped over one of them or I kind of alluded to one of them Which is the network itself Right and the network could be made up of members You know like we're members partners People that are you know, we know we have an active relationship with such as Kiko lab could be a partner collective necks could be a partner Even though matt is a member and lauren you're a member kind of thing and then neighboring communities Right neighboring communities are other other communities that Well, they may not be directly involved in the stewardship Or the promotion of ogm. There are people that we want to be connected to so you have quests You have labs you have our network And then those things are held together by a nervous system That we have to design and implement and that nervous system has a lot of pieces. So let me pause Does that mental architecture give us some shape? Am I missing something? How do you guys think about it? So let me let me step back And I think we don't have to race p we can I mean, I'll acknowledge you I what I don't want this place to facilitate it, right? I think Um, we also have to think about our operating stuff. But yes, please um, I I like the general architecture. I I I think I maybe call things differently and think of things a little bit differently And so maybe maybe a place to start is thinking about When the ogm network, um Has uh 5,000 people in it 1,000 5,000 10,000. Yep. Um Uh Where you see quests, I I actually see pretty much organizations actually an organization is going to be doing a quest So for me csc feels like an an organization a sister organization to ogm and to keekalab and and All the members are intermembers of each other probably And you know, there would be members of ogm who aren't members of keekalab members of ogm who aren't members of csc members of csc who aren't members of ogm um Can I can I just quickly interject just because In regard to the word members and I just was looking at this in some new work that learn and I are putting together And that could have different meanings. I just want to say it could be form relatively formal or relatively not so formal So please go ahead Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense I think so the um Uh, for me, it's interesting that you make a distinction between quests and labs. Um, I I'm not sure what I think about that, but I've been thinking of csc as a project or a quest essentially Um, there there does seem to be there There there's certainly a difference. So projects and quests. Um, I've been talking with other people. Those are like action groups Um, and then technology groups are doing it or or human facilitation when I say technology I'm you know, completely happy to include human process as a technology um And it is its poor step sibling which gets all the credit, but none of the joy um But so action quests or action projects and infrastructure quests or projects um For better or for worse the way ogm the organization has has Has been moving itself. It feels like an infrastructure project to me where We've been super good at at connecting organizations connecting people and things like that Um, and as yet, we're not super good at at an action being an action network And I think that's fine. I'm not saying anything is good or bad, right? um But I would love to see a quest or an action project around soil regeneration um, and I feel like that's Better for everybody if that's not an I mean that's you know, soil regeneration Project the quest should be an ogm member and there should be lots of cross fertilization But I think it's actually better if it's outside the outside You know calling it an ogm quest I think it's within the federation of So then I go into federation on all these things are federated, right? So a thousand people federated in loosely federated in groups of you know, 2050 something like that um, I think When I think of ogm I the other things I've said about ogm is it's a protocol. It's a verb It's you know our gift to the world. Here's how you work together. Here's how you federate Here are the things that that federation means, you know, we kind of have this loose definition of of membership So ogm has a fuzzy, you know definition membership kegelab does csc does but you're also When I think of collective sense commons, I want the people in it or actually ogm and ogm marketplace um You you kind of need to be a member So signing up to be a member has some loose things, you know, I'm I'm responsible to the group I I affirm that I've I'm of good intent. I'm willing to listen to other people I'm willing to change my mind those kinds of things kind of define membership Right, and if you can't do that about the ogm ideals or the csc ideals or the soil regeneration ideals Maybe you're a friend, but you're not a member, right? I would just add this is great. This is really right on time to what we've been talking about also in in the session yesterday um But just to add the piece about engagement So I think you're right and we we've learned and I again came to this point about commitment responsibility Defining those things But also in this kind of liminal time of onboarding and just getting attention, you know And hoping, you know trying for engagement then the engagement itself actually puts a Another kind of definition or or detail As to the type of membership so just to say that the engagement help help me understand what you Charles what when you say like Give me a specific there because I think I understand what you're saying. I just want to make sure We're using okay. Well, we couldn't certainly go into that if you want to hear a little bit We we went into it quite a bit last night and this is in general like relating to our knowledge repository and the kind of roles and tasks involved in just growing that knowledge garden and keeping it up and You know, it's this lot of kind of busy work in a sense grant work that is detail-oriented And involves exactly, you know making the recordings through the transcripts highlighting editing mapping All that stuff for the knowledge repository Primarily, there's more but yeah Can I rephrase that or just getting super specific about what roles we think we need and Kiko lab network and who like basically put bounties on them and put up very very specific about the design considerations and what we decided Is that working the design? Well the currency or point system is just basically a simple bounty system with points attached to each to roles we decide are important and we're designing this around innovation diffusion and kind of um Encouraging each other to try each other's stuff. So it's basically encouraging people to um try things So it's like giving incentive to the kind of like the the first followers We're designing we're designing like a process to take people through who have Big visions, but don't know exactly How to go about actually accomplishing them because they don't have, you know For a lot of these things you need You know business you need to be like an expert in business flow and a designer and Charismatic speaker and a presenter and just you know very few people are that so we're going to try to take Yet expertise and in our network and try to get people to be able to present their ideas much more clearly and Get plans that are clear and um basically have testable prototypes way Earlier than they think they should uh via uh Pete's suggestion and and Judy's so Yeah, and and I also want to say just ogm. I think is doing a great job uh connecting people because You know, I know we um We wouldn't be where we are right now without uh ogm and You know just getting to know like amazing people through through the call. So I think it's working um Two brief things and then I'll pass it to Judy real quick Uh, one is that I think we're envisioning quests as being temporary Like a quest is like a bad analogy crusade that that The quest is is out to try to achieve something and once it's achieved Then its work has turned into new assets has turned into new organizations and relationships other kinds of things but but questing Should feel like a mission Not in the sense of the organization's mission, but rather being on a mission together being on a quest together So that there's a sense of oh, we're aiming to to complete this thing over here And then that particular quest might be done um And then also that other pieces I'm I'm sort of seeing them as kind of free floating our dna Some of which gets absorbed into uh ogm and becomes uh the mitochondria For example, so so mitochondria little energy engines in in ourselves They used to be like external bacteria and we assimilated them symbiotically They just climbed on board and became a part of human self That's how human cells make energy for muscles and for thinking for everything else And so I see I see sort of snippets of code and process and method as being Free floating dna that we're just like that We would like to use and do and we absorb it and it becomes central to Our infrastructure our nervous system. I'm not sure exactly what you know what part of that language to use there And then there's a whole bunch of partner organizations We hope I mean the the quest into food system regenerative ag soil fertility could involve if we're really lucky Hundreds of partners because a piece of what I think ogm would be good at doing Is is bringing together convening connecting Gluing together a bunch of things so that a lot of disparate efforts can remain With their disparate identities don't get homogenized But rather are starting to work together in sync And are starting to connect up to cause a larger shift Of consciousness, which I think I think ogm is is in some measure Out to change how humans see the world in one another so that they'll make more positive change in the world Which would include Being able to talk to people who are really different from us or have like seemingly impenetrable ideas which is An interesting feeling these days yesterday having read a bunch of reports from nurses In er's reporting that There are people dying of covet who will not In any way admit that they've got covet that it didn't that it even exists Which is like that that feels like an impenetrable reality barrier But I think that's a piece of ogm's mission is how do we how do we dissolve even things like that? So judy Well, this is this is the epitome of snarky Because I think what what it seems to me is we're talking on many different levels and it might be helpful To identify levels and then subsets of levels just in a conceptual framework Because I think I'm starting to draw lots of arrows and stuff between all the different connecting things on the notes. I'm taking and There are common themes That I think are the overarching ones But then there's they split very rapidly into subsets within those themes and I guess I saw I see ogm in the simplest possible way As the big umbrella Is a collection of connections Of a lot of different types And then I would suggest that we consider How those connections work As entities differently than how they work as processes because I think There's going to be an array of processes available available to a group and different Groups that will want to connect with each other who will need to merge processes And so I sort of see it as a human toolbox in terms of intellectual assets and Connective assets and knowledge content that all operates Sort of on a needs-based way So I can imagine a small community saying we need to set up a food shelf. How can we do that the most effective way? And the kind of processes they will need is different than what the un would need for a global issue And we're going to have everything in between and part of our complexity right now is Where do we want to start? because That's going to determine how we evolve to a certain extent, but there'll be a lot of intervention and branching points And briefly before handing to Klaus part of the reason we could be useful to a food bank and to the un Is that I think our approach is pretty meta. It's like how do we collect up? When ways of conquering all these different issues, whether it's bridging the cultural divide or Allocating food equitably in a neighborhood or addressing, you know different kinds of things and and as we remain meta we get useful to everybody Rather than suddenly having too many relationships to manage I think I think the key here is to not try to be everything for everyone And suddenly behold, you know juggling 4 000 malls, but rather to be useful to everyone Such that they can come in feed at the trough yet exactly what they need go find connections go find people Go change the world for the better some more Go ahead Klaus. Yeah, I'm thinking about this connective tissue but what What comes to mind is the is the spider dynamics Approach where they're talking about a v meme, right? So there's a small v attached to a large meme and In a in a sense that that v functions like the rudder on the ship Now it it provides direction. It steers So that's a value Proposition when you think about the food system, for example That value proposition would be soil hills or the restoration of the ecology Which really begins with soil And then out of that we can spin particular memes that that Function at different levels Like it could be in a community food system or it could be the united nations The declaration of larger larger events And then What what I what I perceive as An opportunity in the market In in terms of information to to to provide The market with support and material There are An endless array of support systems in place already Many of them operating on a national level who are not necessarily connected I mean, first of all, they operate independent of one another And they don't they don't they don't act in concerts when they come to a specific community Um, and then many of them are specialized for specific types of community No, you may have for example a black community. You may have a rural community in a city community and so on And And and I actually saw that It slipped by yesterday Where one group was talking about taking community level assessments And I saw so you you assess a a given community based on The resources they already have available But they may be disconnected and the individual Resources they have could be connected to a national infrastructure And and And so so you could look at this like in like in march like a modular format where You can we can interact with one community and then say assess that Here are resources that could be available to you To act like a poker in this in this sense. I think that could be within The range of our capacity also I think, you know, claus the piece that I um I hear what you're saying and I'm like, yes, and then I think at a kind of try to push to that more meta level and um There's so many of these things That are kind of Tracks of Opportunity and this group has um a wide Variety and difference of opinion of what is the right answer? What is the right thing to invest in right? and I'm wondering if the if Where where we were going, you know p what you were saying about How do you federate? How do we federate at a global scale? right, how do we Create a collection of open connections That can be applied to and it's almost like um, you know, the anarchist playbook Where you know claus you're going to say Hey, this is what I want to this is the quest that I want to go on who's with me And the net you paying the network and the bigger the network is the more opportunity And and that verified that that network is the more opportunity that you're going to find people that are going to say Yes, claus i'm going to work with you for the next whatever it is and we're going to start moving something at the same time you know Lauren might say this is what I want to be working on or neil says this is what I want to be working on and It is in that collection of connections and and judy. I think that that's You know sort of right now what the beauty of ogm is. I think the part of the challenge is I I think we're all still having a little bit up a hard time accessing And coalescing Around you know these things. I've got a lot of really great connections. My brain is opening I'm thinking differently, but if I say I need this project and I need to get it up off the ground It things can potentially break, you know, maybe break down so I I don't know how we stay open versus lock on Picking one thing or or or another thing, right? I think that's what I meant by the different tiers within the conceptual structure because in the sense of ogm as a knowledge content of facts movements people processes as as sort of a A mega encyclopedic information connection device That's going to keep growing Because all of the groups that participate that's going to be backflow of knowledge and additional processes and content another thing To make it very very organic so from one sense, I see the The implementation is a different aspect of ogm and it would be worthy to talk about ogm as as the collective knowledge content entity And the scope and type of collective knowledge And the process part of it is not only the framework of processes But the actual process of distribution of that knowledge and content because it's going to become a pull rather than a push very quickly And that's what we would want But we want the wisdom of that pull to come back into the larger knowledge whole So that it's an even better resource to the future groups that want to use it Charles then Neil I just want to give major props to p for in general kind of documenting and harvesting links and One email recently in particular was a wonderful summary of what's happening in the discourse forum And this is like incredibly valuable and awesome and I think really speaks to to the The specific ways that we can know what's happening and and just have the possibility of awareness and then to be able to connect and get involved and so forth And again, just you know fundamentally we always talk about processes and and connecting and collaborating and all this it's kind of very lofty and abstract without the communication Fundamentally you need those channels clear established and flowing Forgive me for dropping in late Picking up a few key word picking up a few key words here flow estuary keeping channels flowing Unravelling and an analogy that came to me today with regard to another project My father used to take me fishing in a very small boat And because we didn't go off and enough part of my role was that after every third cast When the line got tangled I would be sitting behind him unraveling the tangled line While he kept his linear fishing line in the water to make sure that we didn't waste the time on the water to actually catch something So the linear project flow is once you've got your bait on the hook Or once you actually got a specific idea of what you're going to do It's in the water But somebody in the background is actually unraveling the line Recognizing the thread keeping it flowing as Pete does here Right holding the space for the next Piece of bait or the next project and there's multiple roles that are being played in this group part of it's the exploratory role You know when ants are looking for food they zigzag Once they found that it becomes a linear progression back to the most efficient and effective way to get the food back to the colony And I know gerry views the leaf cutter ants Even once they get there they then foster fungal growth rather than eat the plants themselves. So To me there's a common pool of resources which we are co-creating There are stocks and flows of information knowledge wisdom, but there are different roles In terms of who's holding the stock who's holding the flow who's holding the process who's holding the project And again, I think there's multiple horizontal levels At which we can get off if the sufficient critical mass to go there the group doesn't have to agree That we're all going to do this particular project However, I think we do have an obligation to settle a level of strategic ethical principles With which every project will be tested to see whether or not it is worth doing Right. So yes, the group agrees. This is a project worth doing now when you find the resources to do that You know Feel free. I mean you can draw on and you can draw on the information We've got to do that whenever you like, but don't expect us all to jump onto your boat or your project. Thanks Go ahead class My buzzard just went off. I'm baking bread, but you can sit for another minute Life goes on Yeah, life goes on What what occurred to me, I mean I retired in 2012, you know from from my corporate life And I tried to work as a consultant and every contract I got was like universal studio spacing and Motion gate Dubai and stuff like there was all theme park work And I was like sick of it because I had really started focusing on food systems and I participated in a competition that was organized by interventions it's a online group For the AARP and it was called the elimination of food deserts I had no idea what a food desert was at the time and I never heard of it And I had just come back from 10 years overseas working in asia and in europe I was headquartered the last five years in Düsseldorf and working international in 30 countries looking at it as a Corporate of target group marketing looking at food systems. I would do operations audits, you know in in Russia in india in Pakistan and stuff and So I come back and I realized that this american food system is a complete fiasco. I mean, it's a disaster, right? So I tried to engage from a consulting perspective and it was like zero interest I mean no one even wanted to talk about it until I started going into the NGO world now and then so I started working With a variety of NGOs and sort of worked my way up into, you know, national Court team positions, mr. Sierra Club, citizen climate lobby, business climate leaders now But what you realize is that the world the part of society that needs the most help has absolutely zero resources focusing on it. So when when I'm talking about these multiple support structures that are available Virtually all of them are focused on low income environments Needy population coops and so on and they have like zero skills I mean, you're dealing with a group of people who are highly motivated. They're wonderful people They have no idea how to organize anything. I mean, they're really working Very hands-on And oftentimes with very limited resources so the But some of them Have developed a pretty decent platform I mean when you think about double your food buck, for example, you know, there's one organization that focuses on Getting getting a community to raise money Which is coming through a variety of sources from the hospital insurance companies banks, you know the individual donors And then anybody who has who is entitled to food stamps Can go and cash in their voucher And get double the money for it So you can go to the farmers market and you have 10 dollars food stamps now you can buy 20 dollars worth of product That idea It's well fleshed out. I mean, they're really making have done a good job in explaining it But there is really no push behind it, you know to hold that out nationwide to Make communities aware of it who had no idea this is happening and then expand on the idea, you know Bring local merchants into it Bring csa's into it, you know Advocacy to reach that this can take So that you have local money starting to spin in the local community into dedicated targets So there there are so many of these opportunities Available, but it's in the low income sector. These are not people who have the capacity to pay consulting fees So the money to do this will have to come from other sources Which are also readily available and I need to take my bread out of the often So a couple things I'm I'm Taking seriously Pete's suggestion That ogm is a verb and trying to play out what that means And so to a standard way of describing an organization would be Here is who is in core staff and is on salary, etc. Etc. And I'm starting to play out like Maybe what this means is we describe we have a way of describing every entity that is in the the estuary kind of And one of the dimensions of that description is how ogm is this Right, and if it's extremely ogm, it's like this is fantastic But we may not have any any proximity to them or any any connection to them We may not have built a bridge to them or anything like that. So a second dimension might be Go ahead. Is it a verb or is it adjective? Well To ogm is a process, but it also becomes an adjective because yeah It becomes a measure or a quality Or an intention That you can hold things up to and the way we understand what the intention is is by having these conversations By sort of mixing this through and then by reifying or Or or creating models that let us explain our intention to one another Which is partly the intent of the pattern language that we're hoping to present to ogm Because a pattern language is a nice way of distilling How we do things more verby than The nouny And so for me to come back to the pattern language, but please go on. Yeah, exactly So for example thinking about ogming as verb That there's an entity out there called game b and The only proximity we have to is that we have a couple members who've heard of it or might be members of game b But we've done anything to reach out. So so on ogme. It's like very ogme But on how close are they it's like they're still pretty far away Some things that are floating around are so good. It's so ogme And we've already built the bridge and absorbed them that they are an internal part of our bna So their their closeness rating would be a 10 because they become a part of how we work They become a part of how we do, you know How we approach the world and then as we're harvesting all this stuff We are busy curating Best the best things basically a series of stories of positive action And my own amateur theory of change is that one of the most powerful things you can do is tell stories about things that worked Let people appropriate those stories as they need help offer them help in whatever way you can whether that's Software or experts or whatever other kinds of things and that most of the problems we have in the world are not money problems Most of the problems we have in the world are not problems. It'll be solved by large amounts of money in fact That large amounts of money are honeypots for people who know how to extract large amounts of money from large system integration efforts And they work the intentions and and sort of methods of the people that are nearby Now we do need flows of money so that the people involved in the system can make a living So one of the dimensions of ogme as a verb is How are we contributing to this person's sort of well-being? Monetarily and in some cases it'll be on a quest or a project basis and then be yes Yes, yes for now and then they've stepped outside and they're sort of waiting to To find another engagement or role or paid gig In other cases, there'll be people who are busy building Sort of in the middle of it who are constantly contributing to the to the framing of ogm And so they're they're effectively on salary, I guess Um, but trying to figure out sort of how all those things play together. So off to you matt I've got um dogs howling in the background. So maybe they're They're participants in this process. I think you're under attack by vampires or werewolves. Yeah, they sound like right now any time any time a um an ambulance or Fire truck or anything with a siren goes by my dogs are also add additive to that siren. So They're really good sensors of When something's going on in the universe So I just want to use what claus said as a use case here Because I think I think this is a really Interesting thing claus proposed he He identified An intervention in the world, right? He said look there are these people They have discovered these things, but they don't have this to really help them get it get it get it to the next level right So what you would want? I what I think we would want from ogm Is that claus? There is not a time that I've heard you kind of talk to this group that you're not advocating for Doing something in the space that you're passionate about And I think hopefully you're feeling the rest of us say yes That's important stuff to do which I think is one of the reasons why you continue to show up to this group Is because we're validating the fact that you're on the right quest Right, you are on a quest right now What what I would like From ogm as a system Is that instead of you coming to this meeting at every meeting Hitting the wall saying here i'm on this quest help me help me help me and I know you came to us about You know doing some you know some graphic stuff and scott was on that and I you know it never We know I know I didn't satisfy that need for you um But what we would want is ogm to very quickly and effectively Get you to the people That help you that join you on this quest and can help get that thing up and running Whatever the thing is that you name because I trust you that you're sensing the world And identifying things that fit within the ethos the system of ethics, which we haven't fully defined yet But of ogm which we've talked about defining right and so so We need to find more people like you and we need to find More people that can help you and that's part of this Knowledge ecosystem is the knowledge of those people those individuals Who are in a position and who have the skills to be able to to support you on your quest that's part of That's part of the of the story I think the other part of the story Is that we have to design this system of ethics we have to name it we have to write it down We've have many versions of that I think you need to get that so that We can evaluate who we want to draw into this network Right in the right way, and I think drawing people into this network is a job to be done So that there are more and more resources that we're tapped into and can connect to And then we need the infrastructure You know to to collect these connections and the connections are to connections to ideas Connections to people connections to resources connections to technologies connections to processes But somebody has to you know, we have to build that infrastructure And that's what we don't have right now. So we're So we're in a you know, we're inefficient and I think that's what the You know, maybe I don't we shouldn't call it the lab, but I think that's the nervous system that isn't built yet That I think if we spent time on an internal quest to getting that Then we would be more effective in addressing your external And pita I think I think the the notion between lab and nervous system is To try to figure out. What do we call people who are Whose efforts are directly involved in building out some form of infrastructure that's going to be essential to ogm and its operations So so that's I think that's the spirit of what matt is referring to as a lab And I think that makes I think that makes a lot of sense And I I I would suggest actually And I'm not saying this in opposition to lab. I think saying lab is is very concrete and helps people Now conceptually and with some of the stuff that we've done in free jury's brain actually For me it's meta and meta meta and meta meta meta, which I know sounds crazy But um free jury's brain is actually doing some meta meta meta stuff, which is really helpful About pattern languages about Federation about you know that kind of stuff so and then that ties into I've uh Really really smart philosopher douglas hoffsetter Who says everything it gets chunked people make an analogies and that's a recursive system that goes way up and way down so as a So as a meta meta thing I think we're talking about meta and chunking and analogies From a meta perspective um the I mean talking about the the food system here the what i'm on at this point and and working with the seara club and other codes to to Make them aware of this challenge is You have a movement in the farming community and in the agricultural community To get farmers to stop using you know synthetic nitrogen and all these chemicals and And shift their their their practices. You have consumers. I mean sorry consumers. You have to public they have you have to click who Who is becoming increasingly aware of the chemical contamination of their food a nutrient deficiency in their food The the composition of foods that are actually damaging to their health So there's that and in the middle you have a supply chain That has structured itself in a way that is not makes it impossible for them to to Deal with a decentralizing agriculture with an agriculture that that wants to Regionalize its production using different seeds different types of crops different corporations and so on and so on so To to make that system see itself and make the public aware of how they're buying decisions And consumption patterns impact the capacity of the farmer to change that in itself is just information now that in itself Will will already Influence the system now and then to go in and provide um Tools you know at the community level so that The community members can now feel more empowered in influencing that food system because they may have spending they may have access, you know, so That's so what I sort of see as a meta structure And and just just thinking about the quest you're on and my interest in the quest you're on and how OGM might help the quest you're on my I come back to What ways might we help the beneficial movement toward regenerative agriculture tip which could be um making a software platform for evaluating soil fertility and Getting food to market or whatever like it could be finding and connecting those things to farmers maybe it could be making a better visualization and Logical explanation of why this is better for the world available to more people by tweaking the delivery mechanism by Thinking through how it's explained by enlisting children to sing it by whatever It could be and this is my this is one of my amateur hunches It could be figuring out a way a way to approach your neighbors who own the fertilizer And the john dear dealership in town And to say hey if you did this other thing for me You could still make a living and it would be really helpful because the moment they shift to natural farming They've made enemies in town from the industrial agricultural sector, which basically owns everything These are the wealthier people in their town who they go to church with every day So it also might mean creating a new religion or a church movement That's all about green evangelical something or other because there is a green evangelical movement And maybe it may be what maybe what we need to do is help green evangelicals sprout buy up am radio stations Take over the airwaves from the conservatives and get this mean so hot that everybody's like I've got to do that And that may not be on your radar class It may be because cause you're a really rational guy and I can see you saying look this is compelling Why is we just need to say this more and change it? I'm busy trying to figure out. How do we hack people's sense? People's sense of the world around them so that they start so that their intentions shift So the thing then suddenly start moving towards all the things Do you want them to do? And I make we may need to hack weird parts of the psyche to do that in really unusual ways And sometimes the more unusual the way the more it gets noticed the more you get free media because it gets retold The more it carries itself through mean propagation, which is what kiko lab is doing with memes I mean so so so i'm really interested in And then once we see some of these that work we then codify them into Our pattern language and how we work and what we do in our little arsenal of tools So that anyone can go go. Oh, how did they succeed in getting everybody to shift to natural regenerative agriculture? Oh, they did these five things that that's not exactly the same thing In mining but we need to tweak it in these ways And at the same time jerry kevin is doing trying to do the same thing in you know the financial system So you know if we say look there are these you're creating movements in the major human systems To create those movements. We need a whole bunch of quests From those quests we will learn how to do things more effectively and to Organize things and then we need to build the infrastructure to enable that stuff And some people need to really be focusing on infrastructure And some people need to be really focused on the the process of creating those movements and questing itself And I think that's the only delineation that I'm trying to make and then we need our we need our frickin, you know system of ethics pattern language, you know Magna Carta, whatever we want to call it and and then and that's how we get after this and I think Right now we're trying we're we're competing with each other for which is the most important thing versus dividing into And subdividing and building enough resources to get the whole thing up and running Neil then Charles, sorry Love the passion class I've known you for quite a while and I've seen you change significantly in that time through the conversations on linkedin and your own personal quest and education And I also still see that you have a single quest And the only way was one of the arguments you and I used to have Eight years ago the only way we're going to do this There isn't only one way there are multiple multiple multiple ways What we're talking about here is how do we create the mutually assistive community that enables you on your quest? Because the model and the pattern language behind that mutually assistive community Will be the same for kevin's quest and your quest and other quests This is where it taps into human complexity each individual human each individuals development And capacity to hold systemic thinking and capacity to be educated and access to resources The mutually assistive community that I tried to help start build about two years ago was around regenerative agriculture But recognizing that Way out there are people that are raising the consciousness of the collective for nothing who will never be resourced But in the absence of which there is no market for those people who are coming through behind them as the entrepreneurs And in the absence of a market, there is no project to actually provide the money to do the work on the ground And so this is a three-dimensional if potentially four-dimensional process of human development collective human development alignment, but within a broader meta pattern language Within which multiple nested projects can be supported And if we get the dna for the meta process, right Multiple other projects depending on their priority can rise or fall within it so To me the the meta stuff here is how do we hold the space for your project and kevin's project and everybody else's project And create the stuff which some people can't see which is the meta consciousness raising The systemic alignment to bring it into projects that can then be funded and Systematized but the first thing is the systemic and we're dealing with systemic fragmentation You know wicked problems equals social complexity times fragmentation Right, and we've got multiple socially complex individuals even in this group So to get to that alignment is really tricky. There's more I could say but I'll stop for now and I'll think about that next little bit, but That's my meta frame My role in in this in europe at the moment Is deliberately probing and being a disruption to people who think they're doing it And they nearly spit me out every time And at the same time my own team doesn't want me to say these things because it jeopardizes their role in this project If neil's seen it to be part of us and he says this thing that's going to challenge it And yet when they see the stakeholders going yeah, that's what we need they go How come we didn't get that and so In that moment that I have to create where there's a question mark in people's minds and hearts That aligns closer with the realities that we need to move towards which they feel but can't articulate That's where the learning happens Then they're looking for where the resources to learn about find out about do something with and that's where they come to OGM and others but you need the probes That open up the space and you need the mechanisms to bring it back together and some sort of mechanism for weaving and returning The efforts of that investment and engagement back to those who are doing it for nothing and The commons based approach has the the commons pool of producers and productive Product it has an entrepreneurial coalition Which looks at how to monetize that in the old sense and it has some sort of supportive body underneath that Normally a not-for-profit which holds the relationships In a way that enables the whole system to survive as a commons And that's my sense of what OGM could do because it's got all of those skills in it already Let me go to Charles But then I'd like to go back to close and just ask you class to reflect on what I said and what neil said And whether those things whether what we said makes you happy troubles you feels like progress doesn't feel like progress Just your your own visceral feel about what we've just put on the table but first to Charles Hi, I'm gonna try to do some more weaving. I've been Shuffling these pieces around on my map as the kind of going with the flow of this thread in terms of the sequence But I see the weaving Happening certainly network weaving Collaboratory weaving is something that we're very interested in in terms of interoperability Project and organization weaving of course an idea and solution weaving. So I just Noting these different kind of weavings happening at different levels And then actually I um just to jump over to to claus as one of the sort of use cases as matt put it a bit today and Um Kind of within another frame jerry that you mentioned I think not in one of the main calls, but the idea of convergence and divergence and this came up in kiko lab a bit and just in terms of like the The real estate of the synchronous calls And then the other channels and communication Places and forums in terms of attention spreading and energy and action over time. I don't know if that's making much sense but this is where I'm I'm feeling this kind of dance between the convergence and divergence and just choices within The the ecosystem that it's before us with with ogm pattern languages so Here again, I think ogm and kiko lab are reaching toward making pattern languages probably multiple ones the one that I'm Kind of feeling most in the center Of and with this is the interoperability flow, which I think relates a lot to what we're talking about with with mark and time Just to throw this in also impact measurement. I don't know. We didn't really I think that's that's something a kind of big elephant in the room That relates on a lot of levels in terms of workflows protocols and so forth and lastly Back to the network weaving. It may not be a big leap to just connect with michael dowd this Eco evangelist that I haven't connected with directly but he's he's connected with tom atley and this project around rise adaptation and a pattern language there And I think it also points to and probably there are already existing pattern languages around regenerative agriculture But to the extent that they're not or that there are gaps, you know, kind of plug into existing Efforts and pattern sets meta tools and resources and so forth. I think that's that's also all in the wheelhouse of ogm But but clouse, I guess you're pretty involved in that stuff and would know exactly what I mean there So I hope that was the additive and I think that's enough from my side. Thanks Thank you terms Yeah responding to to your question that's right But but my my my perception is that Um The most fertile grounds to a to approach right now You know, are these disengaged voters, you know, who who are hanging on trump and who are hanging on Someone's promise to help them and and deal with their situation And that's clearly not going to happen. Um, I mean, they're clearly being deceived and being used and so on But but they're in a in a mental state that is just very fragile and very Very vulnerable here Here is a point of engagement that makes so much sense from so many levels They live in food deserts You know, they don't know how to support themselves. There is that there is really There may many of them don't even have internet access. You know, so there's there's a long distance here At the same time They are funding mechanisms out there. I mean, they are they are They are trust funds and and people with money who want to intervene. They want to see an intervention there But they're dealing with individual entities who Who may have like one channel that they're focused on so to to approach this From an umbrella perspective Now saying looking at As we mentioned before from a community perspective, you know, what is unique in this community? What do they already have in resources? What resources could we bring to them? And have some funding where you may be able to send someone out there To to engage with the community and start connecting the dots and developing um with a system of relationships, you know with organizations that are already out there, but do not have the resources to to Go out and propagate themselves. I think that that sort of seems to make sense. Yeah And I think that's completely within our reach So it would require for us to have a mission statement That is sufficiently detailed to go to a funding source You know and say look here is the range of talents that we do have Here is a plan on how we see ourselves engage We need some funding for this. We have volunteers as part of the program We have some people who need to make a living as part of the program Um, I think that could that could gain traction Who is the we that you're talking about when you say we who is the we that you're talking about? OGM But so you're but again, I I want to just play this tension here You're referring to ogm as a group of people that are committed to The quest that you're on Right and and you're saying look we're getting funding. We're getting resources. We're going after food. I think that that's great That they're that ogm can be a source of that stuff I I'm I find it problematic though that we're not equally going after Education the financial system the health system all of these other systems And that ogm is a platform for people that are working in all of those human systems to transform them simultaneously And so I think the the we of ogm is not the not those people who are in The quest but are those people that are enabling whatever the noble quests are to happen in a way That is most effective Um, that's the piece that I'm pushing on. Yeah. Yeah, don't misunderstand me here. I'm not I'm not singularly focused on food. You know, I'm I'm focused on the system that enabled soil restoration Right and that system involves a whole lot of things. I mean kevin, for example Could be a a highly valuable A component of this service that we stitch together because you need local financing and he's he he has Developed something that's very narrowly focused right now, but that could be blown up Into a whole lot more ideas education There is a vital component of the training rural communities towards A more enlightened future. So so I I see this as a systemic intervention So so class I want to go back to the question. I asked you though Because I I was basically riffing on a whole variety of ways of possibly changing minds and hearts to to shift their intentions You've just described a particular plan that could work in a particular set of parties to activate Which makes sense to me because the question I typed in the chat that I I'm going to put in now is like What experiment could we run to test your hypothesis about this engaged voters? Being a great vector for a shift to regenerative agriculture correct me if I've misstated your your thesis, but I'm also interested in because because When you step in you step in with a plan I'm trying to figure out how permeable are you to alternate solutions to to experimenting your way toward your results But but with other people's notions of what you know Hey cos if I went and created four videos that and that were memes Would you help us propagate those memes even though propagating mean videos is not on your agenda right now Does that work for you and then meal is sort of talking about the meta status of the system and how that works how Does what meal and I added tried to add to your quest Make you comfortable or uncomfortable How permeable are you to other sort of Approaches to trying to solve I think your same intentions same goals Yeah, I'm slow, you know, I mean I'm free throw I mean Neil said he's Neil said that he's he's been having this wrestle with you for eight years Right. Yeah, I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out how to how to achieve your ends While opening up a much broader spectrum of experimentation One of which is exactly the plan you just presented, but there might be a dozen And and Matt and I would love to have a dozen experiments going in education in local finance in whatever We're we're the one experiment we think is like awesome that we're trying to fulfill is is the person who is leading the quest Inside of ogm whatever even inside of means so you would be like our point person For for heading after reforming the food system and shifting to regenerative agriculture And we have a lot of pull across ogm members for that thing I would love to participate But I'm trying to figure out how do we create a broader sort of front of experimentation Toward that goal while still fueling the initiative you have in mind But but you keep coming back to the initiative you have in mind and I'm trying to I'm trying to open that So so yeah, maybe I'm not doing such a great job Can I offer super quick and matt's gotta leave the call out a second Super quick because because claus I heard you're doing a great job in one way which which was kind of just in passing Which is you were responding to matt Relate really regarding the human the various other human systems that needed to be transformed transformed simultaneously, right? And then you were kind of literally seeing through your lens and you were responding pointing to kevin And his local financing model that could be blown up education as a vital component and so forth I think that that lens and that almost like List laundry list addressing the other human systems as a as a way to translate and to invite in I just wanted to flash on that because go go ahead, please I I explained some sometime back my professional backgrounds working for disney embedded within the imaginary team Right. So anything that disney touches involves food in some form or shape, right? I mean it may be a cotton candy or it may be club 33 five five star restaurant And that's the same thing here, you know everything we touch involves food in some form or shape Because it's the the foundational need But i'm thought i'm totally aware that you know, I don't know what kevin is doing I mean, I know what kevin is doing, but I couldn't be doing it. So I see myself more embedded within You know a system that needs to reform itself and part of the critical part of that reformation is the food system Does that does that make more sense? So i'm i don't see myself dominating Or or guiding or leading I see myself embedded within And we can we pause this can we jump to judy and then go to pete because judy I know you've been very patient trying to jump in here And I know pete wants to wrap it and I do want to get off at 1115 Yeah, I understand we're all under time constraints I just think we need to segregate zones of the conversation and commit to discussing a zone carefully Because we're talking about what is ogm, which is a noun But it's also a verb And it's an ethos And it's a cultural modifier And how you would do those different roles fulfill those roles Are different because of the means and mechanisms of doing that And that's part of what I see creating the richness that will allow Clouse to choose those pieces that help his motion Most effectively and engage people in movement, which is what we want to do for everybody But we have to have the complexity of the whole in a systematic way That allows it to work equally well for the modification of a health care system Or the modification of k12 education or a changing of the mechanism of higher learning To truly learning and peer learning and all of those sorts of things And I get excited about that really big picture But then I also want to drive down vertically and make sure it works in As many different models as we could hold simultaneously or be a resource to Simultaneously So that's just a framing construct And I'll stop there. Thank you, Judy. Okay. Do you want to jump in and Take us home? I'd love to So In in my tribes, um, I'm a software developer agile software developer So we have a ceremony tradition traditional ceremony Um that we do Every day usually so regularly Sometimes you do them every week and I've seen this done in software development and other things too. So It's not like I'm bringing something crazy to ojim. Um, I think it's just a good way to work And I think you all probably know check-ins too. So I'm I'm kind of, you know, explaining something obvious But anyway So You have a regular meeting part of it is important that it's regular You go around the table and everybody checks in. Here's what I'm doing. Here's the help I need. Here's how I got stuck I need, you know, you and you and you to have a one-on-one later And you try to keep it super quick It's called a stand-up because originally it was literally people standing around a table not sitting down so that they would be Encouraged to get the heck out and go do work instead of having a meeting. So I've got um usually Most people do this verbally. I I have a productive Variant of it, which is I'd rather see everybody typing into the same document and and when I get that going in a group What happens is everybody's essentially done their check-in By the time, you know, the second person is started talking about it. So you can just say My bullets um and also I need, you know, and keep going so you can do it very quick I'm just going to dump a couple bullets in the chat These are the kinds of things that I would kind of catch up everybody on I'm also doing something which I think is cool, which is talking about action stuff you know, these are actually quests that have goals and Success or failure and things like that. I'm not even going to read them because Because you all can read them There you go Great wrap Pete. Yeah, thank you. Um This feels like a good place probably to end this call because everybody's got to get back to their Their work, but that was really useful. Neil you want the Just one quick observation. Pete. I love what you're doing and that works for those people who are currently working on a project But when it's co-design emergent processes, that's a different mechanism. So I think this is a front end But there's also Where's the play space? Where's you know, and what are the tools for the play for the playground? Yeah, thanks Yeah Pete your audio suddenly cut out. I have at least one playground or two The bullets that I didn't include because they're not But yes, please we need space more spaces for those two And I'm trying to figure out how my daily I mean anybody who's using Trello to do a personal cam ban or a team cam ban has these sorts of things kind of up and in front of them Alright, so so how might my now page function as a Check-in board as well function as a and when I'm not on a project function as a broadcast of my interests and superpowers Right so that so that I can be picked up by a team that says hey, hey, that's great We're looking for somebody who really knows how to run page maker. Anybody remember page maker Vince Vincent and I are all over that So we we would love to see more now things and project directories and things like that I I also kind of acknowledge that there's a human thing and a attention thing Getting together regularly and kind of committing to each other. Here's the stuff that I did here's the stuff I'm going to do here the problems. I have it's it's there's a synchronous person to person thing that that needs to happen as well cool I'm just going to offer that Medecogs as a group a kind of amorphous Collective is is quite open to all this kind of stuff and it's relevant and so those two stay Evening europe time Sessions could be useful for this kind of kind of discussion as well. Cool. I agree charles. I was thinking the same thing Yeah, it's open open space. Sorry. I miss I missed that point charles. Can you just repeat that? I'm not sure if I missed something. There's a there's a group called metacogs. You might be familiar with but you'd be certainly Welcome to to check it out and we we meet nine nine o'clock on tuesday evenings in europe and uh, there's it's metacogs Let's see a ugs.org You can check out the stuff there Thanks cool Um, we're probably central european time Thank you everybody. Let's let's wrap today's call, but that was really super useful. I'll post the video as usual Beautiful everyone Great Have a great day. Bye. Bye