 Mewn gweithgol memblu. Gweithio'n gymdeithasol. Gweithio'n gweithgol memblu. Mae'n gweithio cawn am wneud. Mae gennym ni iín amheru'n meddwl o ran gŵr i'w seith gweithio. Gweithio'n gweithio i'w seith gweithio, ac rwy'n gallu i chi'n gofydd ymgylcheddol â'i erbyn. Ond rydw i'n gweithio hynny'n gallu gyddyddol o ffordd i gyrddio gael ymddangos i gymwylliannol ar gyfer gyntaf, mewn gweithgol anabradnam yn mynd. I'm the Chair of South Cambridgeshire District Council. My Vice-Chair is Councillor Peter Fein. Peter Fein, shopper. I just want to make a few housekeeping announcements, please, including important safety information for those present in person. If you're attending the meeting in person, we ask that wherever possible you wear a face covering at all times. Please also keep the one-way system in the chamber, a sanitiser and sanitising wipes provided. Whether present in the chamber or virtually, please make sure that you only switch on your microphones when inviting. Those in the room, please note it's advisable when speaking. Can we just pause a moment while we sought out some audio gremlins? Thank you, sorry about that, Members. So please make sure that you only switch on your microphones when you're invited to speak. Those in the room, please note it's advisable when speaking into your microphone, that you speak clearly into your microphone. If you have your microphone too far away, we find it difficult to hear. So please keep your microphone close to you on the desk and speak very clearly. Those who are participating virtually, please note it's helpful if you use a microphone and also speak slowly and clearly. Please also ensure that all other devices are switched to silent or off so that they don't interrupt proceedings. And obviously, when you speak as part of the meeting, do feel free to take your mask off. Only those members present in the chamber will be able to move and second motions and vote. Members present virtually may speak in the debate. These would members who are attending virtually indicate a wish to speak through a chat message in the teams meeting. Those present in the council chamber should indicate their wish to speak by raising a hand. I will ask my vice-chair to keep a note of the order of speakers both virtually and in the room and we will try to address those all members equally. When we move to a vote on any item and there is not clear affirmation, I will state that a recorded vote is to be taken. Members in the chamber will then vote electronically by indicating your presence by pressing the button and then selecting four or four against or abstain. The result will be displayed. Those present including any members of the public observing or any public speakers are asked to note that this meeting is being filmed and live streamed. So by your presence you're deemed to have consented to be filmed and to the use of those images and sound recordings for a webcast. May I please remind members that when speaking they should not disclose any personal information of any individual as this might infringe the rights of that individual and breach the data protection act. Finally, may I remind members you are required to address the meeting through the chair. Officers have confirmed that the meeting is courate and we can proceed. So, as our microphones are on tables, standing to speak means projecting your voice rather more and in times of Covid in interests of both safety and practicality, I propose that standing order 21.2 standing to speak be suspended for the duration of the meeting. Could I have a seconder for that? I'd like a seconder for that chair. Thank you Councillor Fane. Does any member wish to vote against that? Good, I see no one objecting. Thank you very much. So then the council therefore agrees that by that motion by affirmation. So now I have the pleasure of introducing Gavin Chappell-Bates from Centre 33 who represents my chair's charity. I met Gavin a few weeks ago, had a very interesting conversation with him and I'm delighted that he's going to be with us today. He's going to give a short presentation about the work of Centre 33. Thank you. May I welcome you to this council meeting Gavin? Thank you very much. I will just bring some slides up. Hopefully the technology will work. Thank you. Wonderful. Excellent. Well, thank you very much for welcoming me today. My name is Gavin and I am the fundraising manager at Centre 33. I'm just going to take a few minutes to tell you a little bit about the charity in our work. So we are a charity that supports young people across Cambridgeshire and Peterborough and we work with young people up to the age of 25. So we provide practical and emotional support for young people and approximately each year we work directly with around two and a half thousand young people. We were founded as a charity in 1981 so for those quick off the mark that makes it our 40th birthday this year and in those four decades we have worked with approximately 40,000 young people. So I just wanted to tell you a few of the things that I think make Centre 33 quite unique and an important service for young people across the county. First of all our services are what we call open access which means they are available to all young people across the county. They are also free and confidential. Young people can self-refer into our services so they do not need a professional referral. They can get in touch with us in a number of ways whenever they want through their own volition and they do not need an appointment to call us, to text us, to email, to visit us. Now when young people get in touch with us they can come and talk to us about anything and I mean literally anything so whatever it is they may have on their mind, whatever issue they may be facing they can come and talk to us and we will then provide holistic support on a range of issues to support them and we often deal with very complex needs from young people so the majority of young people that come to us come with more than one presenting need and through all of that we are aiming to provide quality and good outcomes for the young people we work with. So as I mentioned we work across the county we have five physical hubs so we were founded at our premises in Cambridge which is at 33 Clarendon streets but we also have hubs in Huntingdon, Peterborough, Wisbeach and Ely. We also run a number of specialist groups across the county, we work in quite a lot of the schools in the area and we also provide outreach support in various community locations. As well as our physical presence we also provide remote support and as I'm sure you can imagine this is predominantly how we've delivered our services over the last 18 months so young people can get in touch with us no matter where they are located without the need to physically visit us by texting calling or email and this has been really useful service over the last 18 months because it it means regardless of where you are and what your transport links might be and whatever anxieties you might have about face-to-face support it means you can access this regardless so going forward we will be providing support via virtual delivery and also face-to-face support. So as I mentioned earlier we provide practical support and we do that in a number of ways there's just some of them on the screen here but there are many more so for example we have specialist housing officers so we work with young people who might be homeless or who might be at risk of being homeless as an example. We also provide emotional and mental health support and we do this in a number of ways so we do this through our physical drop-in so when we are when we are open young people can visit us at our hubs and they can also call our helpline. On the screen here you can see some of the things that we support young people with and we also provide counselling and we do that in our hubs we've done that virtually over the last 18 months and we also provide counselling in many of the schools in the county. We also run a specialist young carers project so this is working with young people who have caring responsibilities so they may be caring for a parent or a sibling and often these caring responsibilities will have an impact on their life and potentially a negative impact on their potential opportunities so we're here to support them with that and we provide one-to-one support, we provide group support, we work in a lot of the schools and we also offer a series of respite activities and holidays for young people so there are lots of things we try and achieve as a charity but there are some sort of key outcomes that we hope for and that we're working towards when we work with young people so we want young people to be emotionally healthy, we want them to be sexually healthy, we want them to be safely housed, we want them to be in employment or meaningful education and training, we want them to have improved financial situations and we want to reduce the negative impact of those caring responsibilities I just mentioned. So we are very grateful to have been chosen the Chairs Charity which we are very grateful for so thank you very much. There are many ways in which you can support Centre 33, obviously financially that is important to us, it costs a lot of money to run our services across the county and provide the support we do and as I'm sure you can imagine the need for our services has grown over the last 18 months and often that need outstrips our capacity but there are also other ways to support us which aren't financial so it is really important to raise awareness of our services both to encourage other people to support and fund our work but also to make sure that all young people across the county are aware that this support is available to them and we also often have volunteering opportunities to help support our service delivery. So that was just a very quick whistle stop tour of who we are and what we do but if there are any questions then I'd be very happy to take them and I'd also be very happy to provide further information offline after the meeting if anyone is interested to know to know more. So thank you very much. Interesting and informative presentation and for attending our meeting. You're welcome, I'm going to ask if there are any questions but you're welcome to observe the rest of the meeting from the live stream if you wish, thank you. So has anyone got any questions? Yes Councillor Bridget Smith. Thank you, thank you chair. I don't say I'm delighted that you've chosen Centre 33 as your charity over the years you'll be aware that my little charity I run in Gamlingay is responsible for the youth work and the outreach youth work and over the years I have encouraged a number of young people some in really really dire situations to access the services of Centre 33 and I know they've saved lives basically you know they're not just improved lives they've in some cases they've saved lives so they are a really really important charity and one that deserves our support and the support of all the people in South Cambridgeshire so thank you very much. Thank you very much Councillor Smith. Do you wish to respond Gavin? Well that's obviously very heartwarming to hear so thank you very much for those comments and yes I mean it means a lot to hear those words and you know we do everything we can to transform lives and certainly we do see some very high-risk young people and certainly the need for the needs we're seeing coming through the door have increased quite substantially over the last year so we will continue to be there for young people whilst they need us. Thank you very much and Councillor Caffecart, did you wish to speak to you? Thank you very briefly yes and this is obviously a very worthy organisation I think it should be fully supported I'm just wondering how widely it is known out there because many young people actually are especially those of difficulties are isolated and remote from sources of communication and that's why we're in difficulties so it's just a question of how widely is it known for people who really need it. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Caffecart. Gavin. Yep so certainly I think we're probably well more well known in Cambridge and South Cambridgeshire and because historically we were founded over this side of Cambridge probably less well known towards Peterborough because we've not been there as long but we do a lot of work to make sure that all young people know who we are which is you know what we do a lot of work in schools we work with professionals we work with a lot of charities and other organisations but we are aware that there are young people who are in isolated circumstances or who might be in communities which are further from services and support so we are working to make sure that we access those young people and certainly being able to offer blended and flexible services as we're starting to do now with remote support online support as well as face to face support means our services can be more accessible so yes certainly it's that there's always work to be done I think is is the answer but we will keep doing it but certainly please do tell people about us if if they don't know. That's exactly what I was thinking that we'll do every effort have make every effort to publicise your work I certainly will and I'm sure now members are aware this is the chairman's charity I know members in the past have been extremely supportive so I hope we can be this year Gavin thank you so much for your time and as I say do feel free to stay with us or or leave if you prefer but thank you thank you very much thank you so members I invite you to join me in a few moments quiet contemplation to consider the work we're doing this afternoon thank you thank you members we move on to item one on the agenda so apologies are there any apologies for absence please yes chair apologies for absence have been received from councillors Trebona Bhattacharia, Tom Beigot, Tom Beigot um did you hear the first one's number? Trebona Bhattacharia, Tom Beigot, Mark Howell, Steve Hunt, Dawn Percival, Judith Riffer, Nick Sample and I believe councillor Nick Wright may be late, he's not here already. Thank you, thank you very much councillor Caffcott, councillor Clayton, is that right to join us yourself? I'm sorry councillor Caffcott are you who's apologies are you giving? councillor Clayton, Clayton yes councillor Clayton and uh ayden councillor Bandavalla? Uh yes so um councillor ambulance has Clair Delfield and sir Chloe sorry who who was the person you were giving apologies for? councillor clair Delfield with councillor Troy Clair right okay so item two Dyna dŵn, dw i mi gweithio'r gwahanol kidsr modulusau, dyna'r gwahanol siaradau yn y gwasanaeth o'r pryfau ar hyn… Dy fyddai'r gwahanol hynny eisiau yn y cyrraedd wedi gwneudd yn gweithio ei scherloedd, a'i gweithio'r gwahanol ni. Mae'n gweithio'r cefnodigom Bryyffordded â'i Llywodraeth a'r Tyffwyr Cymru, rwy'n gallu gwahanol hynny'n gael ei hynny yma i'w gweithio ar hynny. I'm doing it now. I'm also going to Cambridge Partnership and did Councillor Henry Batchel. Did somebody say Councillor Henry Batchel? Yes, please, Chair. Item 14A, I'm also a member of the investment partnerships for Southcance and I need to declare a non-vocunary interest afternoon. I'm sorry, Councillor Batchel, you're precisely hidden by the leader of the council. Yes, I know. I'm sorry, did we get Councillor Batchel? Thank you. So, the minutes, members. Members are asked to approve the accuracy of the minutes of the previous meetings of council on the 22nd of July in this case. Are there any matters arising? Would you just like to raise them with me? Councillor Heather Williams? Do you give us a page number? So, in response to the question asked on the OTSC mark by Councillor Batchel, he's just asked me to say that there's been a slight omission that the leader mentioned of her role as chair of the environmental committee. Which item number are you referring to, Councillor Williams? Yes, yes, which item number in the minutes? And page 5 of 11. Yes, point 11. Whereabouts on the page? 4, 5, 6, 7, 7, 1, down. Reference was made to the leader's position on the environmental committee. So he asked if I could just have that included. And then myself, it's throughout. There are occasions where it's Councillor Williams. Now, given there are three of us, it'd probably be best to have the full name whenever. I agree. Where it's used. Sorry, and I still didn't catch. What the actual point you wished to amend about, was it the... So the leader replied that there isn't the inclusion of the position the leader holds, which was referenced in the leader's response. That she's chair. Is it chair of the environmental committee? So right, let's just get clear then. It's the 1, 2, 3, 4th paragraph up from the bottom. That says the leader explained that the council was still waiting for further details from the government on what the project would entail. Is that it? No? Chair, I should reflect the leader. The leader seems to want to... Sorry, yes. Just a... Yes, to go ahead. A point of clarification. I'm not the chair of the environment working group. That is what I am the lead member of the environment on the Oxford Cambridge Arc. So the lead leader, the lead member, but I'm not the chair. That's fine. I'm trying to find out precisely where in the minutes we're trying to correct the minutes. Oh, I see. Okay. Are democratic services clear where that needs to be? No, we're not clear where it needs to be added in. Do you mind me, sir? Would you clarify? Physically point to it. That might be quicker. Well, just tell us what... If we take the top part paragraph as one and we count down which paragraph are you trying to talk about? Evan. One that starts counselling Nick Wright. Okay. And whereabouts? What line number are you saying should be added in? I suppose the second one. So the leader replied that she was the lead member of the environment, whatever the leader just said her title. So you'd like an insertion. After the first sentence, counselling Nick Wright asked what the council's vision was for the ox can are? Well, I can't remember whether I said it or not. So I don't know, but I don't care because it's true, but I can't remember whether I said it or not. Unless anybody else can. Are we confident that this is an accurate record of the meeting? Can we check the recording? Yes, there's a recording. So if it says that in the recording, I'm sure Democratic Services will happily insert the reference that you're referring to the counsellor. I'm sure counsellor Wright will be fine with that. Thank you very much. Okay. Were there any other adjustments, counsellor Sollum? Thank you, chair. Hopefully a simpler one. At the top of page 12, I made reference to the cost of the borough of not carrying through the... At the top of page 12, I've got... Yes. What paragraph? The second paragraph, or the first full paragraph. The point was taken with one... Right, counsellor Dr Sollum. Yes? In the second line of the paragraph at the top there, the cost was $6 million. I think you'd all like it if the cost of reversing the universal credit cut was $6 million. So the point you're making is that the cost was $6 billion, not $6 million. That's correct. And despite this, it was affordable. Yes, okay. Yes, okay. And counsellor Batchelor, did you have something on the minute? Yeah, thank you. Again, a straightforward one point of pedantry. In page 1, counsellor Handley, as Marks has been present as well, has given apologies. So I'm good. It's a lot of doing more than one place at one time. Can I try that? I know you're impressive Bill, but not that pretty. So counsellor Handley, could you advise us? Can you remember whether you were here or somewhere else? Chair, I was present. Lovely. Thank you. So you were present. So can we amend the minutes to remove him from the list of those who've given their apologies? Lovely. Thank you. Is that all for the minutes? Okay, super. So, right. So with those amendments, are we happy to approve the minutes by affirmation? Is that agreed? Lovely. Thank you very much. So the council therefore agrees the approval of the minutes as amended as a correct record by affirmation. Thank you. So moving on, announcements. Firstly, I'm going to invite announcements from the leader and then the head of paid service and then I have one of my own. Thank you. Leader. No announcements. Thank you. No announcements. Thank you chair. Thank you very much. So, Members, there are two public speakers in relation to the item on the making of Foxton neighbourhood plan who have asked that they may speak on that item at an early point in the meeting as they have work and childcare commitments. I therefore move that the order of business in the agenda be changed to allow item 10 to be considered immediately after this item. In other words, before item 6. Can I have a seconder? Thank you, Councillor Roberts. Thank you for seconding it. So, are we all agreed, Members, by affirmation that I should move that item? Thank you very much. The council therefore agrees the motion by affirmation. Are there any other announcements? No? Right. So, with that, we bring forward the item on the making of Foxton neighbourhood plan and thank you for being there and being patient with us. May I invite, so this item, folks, is on pages 161 to 170 of our agendas if you wish to turn to that. May I invite Catherine Kerns, the chair of the Foxton neighbourhood plan steering group and Councillor Simon Buggy, chair of Foxton Parish Council to speak. Do go ahead. You have three minutes. Are you okay with the IT? Yep, I'm here. I believe you're going to share the three minutes. We are indeed. Go ahead. Thank you, right. I'm Simon Buggy, the chair of Foxton Parish Council. The council was delighted that the neighbourhood plan was so well supported at the referendum in July. We had an impressive 32% turnout, with 96% of voters supporting the plan. The main plan is already proving a great value to the parish council and the community. We have been through several local consultations to gather evidence and feedback. By taking the community with us on this journey, considering all their views and their comments and keeping them updated on the plan's progress, that has been a vital part of the process. I would like to thank the council for its support. I would like to thank the council for its support. I would like to thank the council for its support. By taking the community with us on this journey, considering all their views and their comments and keeping them updated on the plan's progress, that has been vital in reaching the successful conclusion and the overwhelming support we have got in the referendum. We are truly grateful for everyone in the community who has contributed towards this plan. This has been a great example of community collaboration. I will now ask Catherine to add a few words. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Catherine Jones and I chaired the working group that's worked to the parish council to coordinate the preparation of the neighbourhood plan. I think I'd first like to sort of have a reality check and emphasise just how much work it took. I think the process was far more complex and time consuming than we anticipated. I mean, it took us five and a half years to get from start to where we are today. ond wewyr o'r ffordd o'r cyfrifysgol yn llwyddo i'r cyfrifysgol a'r ffordd yn gyffredinol. We also benefited greatly from successfully applying for different pots of grant aid to buying specialist planning advice, specialist landscape consultancy, because we prepared a Landscape Character Assessment as part of the process. These are specialist skills which would have been far beyond the scope of volunteers, felly mae'n fawr i'n fwyaf fwyaf y gyrdd, mae'n fawr i'n fawr i'n fawr i'w pwysig, yn ddegyfodol, rwy'n fawr i'n fawr i'w pwysig yma, rwy'n fawr i'w pwysig yma, a'r gwybodol i Eimpol, i gael eu bod yn ddweud o'r adegiau ac i gael eu ddweud o'r ddweud o gydag, allan yn gwybodol, ac yn ddweud o'r ddweud o'r adegiau. Cynllun, dr Timmy Holkins, byddai'n gwybod a'r ystod y gweithio? Maes y cyhoedd, i'n fawr, nid i fawr yn angen i chi'n gwybod a'i gweld y fawr o'r cyffredinol o'r fawr o'r hynny o'r gweithio fawr o'r fawr o'r llun o'r llun i gael, a'r hyn yn bod yw'r gweithio, mae'n fawr i'n gweithio, ddod y cyfnod. The area was first designated back, I think, in 2015. So, yes, it's been a long journey, but they're here now. And I want to find them for, again, sort of like showing the weary as to what can be done when community comes together. Obviously, also, our officer, Alison Turkey, who has been like a rock helping communities to come up with their neighbourhood plans. I'm sure that the local member would want to have a word as well, so I will wrap up here and just say thank you, and I'm glad that we are able to make this neighbourhood plan and recommend that we make it as on page 161. Thank you very much. I'd like to invite Councillor Deborah Roberts as local member to speak on this. Thank you very much, Chairman, and to my colleagues on the Parish Council and to Catherine, a great word of thanks and congratulations. It's not been an easy road, it's taken over five years, and lesser beings would have given up well before the eventual success, but these people haven't done. Catherine and her team, including Parish Councillor Caroline Iolott, have really worked so hard and been so determined to get it right and get it through, and it has received a great deal of support from our Foxton residents, who really have appreciated, I believe, what has been done to help and protect their village now and in future years and decades and for future generations, so thank you very much to the Parish Council who have been very committed to this, and thank you to Catherine and her team, and to the South Cam Officer who has helped them so much. Well done everybody, you deserve a large champagne, thank you. Councillor Roberts, and remember that this decision was actually made by the chief executive who took the decision to make the neighbourhood plan in August 2021 because the timeframe required that, and we are simply noting that decision, which is on page 161 at the bottom of the page, for A and for B and for C. Councillor Williams, did you wish to speak? Yes, thank you, Chair. I'll try not to repeat what others have said, but I think we all know from the experience on planning committees, local members, how much effort goes in, so it really is a great job all round. And I think this is for Boxham particularly, it was referenced about the things that are coming in the future, and this hopefully won't be just used, or vitally it will be used by the planning committee, but also those of us should be listening very carefully, that sit on the Greater Cambridge Partnership Assembly and indeed the Board as things move forward, and I'm sure we'll find a lot of support through the hard work that's been put in. Thank you, so members, we're asked to note the recommendations that are set out on page 161 and 162, and I think we've done that. So we now turn back to, thank you very much to you both for joining us and presenting, and congratulations on the hard work that you've put into your neighbourhood plan. I know how much work is involved, so thank you so much indeed for your assistance. Thank you, thank you very much. So, we move on to questions from the public. These are on page little three of the agenda pack. Are they? No? The supplementary pack, sorry, page three. We've received three public questions, I apologise, members. We had received one from Mr Daniel Fulton, but that question has been withdrawn. So, we move on to question the second, which is from Mrs Linda Miller, Clark to Swayvesey Parish Council, to ask her question. I think it's a traditional ask her question. So, Mrs Linda Miller, are you here? Is that you? I am, thank you very much. Good afternoon and thank you for allowing the question to be put from Swayvesey Parish Council. On behalf of the council, I want to ask the following question to Councillor Tumie Hawkins, as a lead Cabinet member for Planning, Policy and Delivery. Swayvesey Parish Council asks, when will South Cams Planning Committee be held in an open format with all attendees attending in person, councils, officers and members of the public, in particular with officers attending in person? A Swayvesey Parish Council is concerned that although the use of virtual attendants has been necessary and has enabled meetings to continue, technology does not always work and feels that it reduces the ability to interact fully in meetings. Thank you, Mrs Miller. We seem to be having some of that with us today, even though we're in the room. Councillor, Dr Tumie Hawkins, can you answer the question? Thank you, Chair. Meetings of the council, cabinet and committees, including Planning Committee, have been held in person and in open format since 7 May 2021, in accordance with the legal requirement to do so. From that time, all members of the public wishing to participate have been informed that they may do so either in person or remotely. Following the litany of most national restrictions on 19 July, government advice has been to remain cautious. This is still the case and the government's coronavirus home page states, and I quote, coronavirus remains a serious health risk. You should stay cautious to help protect yourself and others, unquote. South Cams Council Chamber, as you can see, is a dedicated room set up for council and committee meetings, which, in normal times, provides a highly suitable venue for meetings of the Planning Committee. However, this chamber is not naturally ventilated, but it is mechanically ventilated. The council monitors the CO2 levels in the chamber, which are well within the levels which indicate that the space is well ventilated. However, the fact that the room relies on mechanical ventilation means that other mitigations, such as minimising the number of attendees, if their physical presence is not required, should continue. This is again in line with the government guidance that goes on to say that if you can't improve ventilation in poorly ventilated spaces, consider whether it is safe to restrict the number of people in these spaces or stop using them if possible. The chief exec as head of paid service has a duty of care to officers to ensure a safe working environment, and is therefore taking account of these guidance in respect of the attendance of officers. As you can see, the council has installed the technology to permit remote participation at physical meetings in the chamber. The meeting of the annual council had to be held off-site at the larger venue on the 20th of May, because the government timetable for COVID restrictions prior to 21st of June required that events indoors could only be held in venues where 50% capacity was not exceeded. Of course, this was not possible in the chamber. Since then, meetings have been held in the chamber, utilising technology which we are using today, which has been installed and which has worked consistently well for the majority of the 25 meetings held in the chamber today. Just to end with this, that we have received much positive feedback about the fact that this council has equipped itself to enable people to attend meetings of committees remotely. Of it, there was frustration from parish councils and speakers who often had to sit through long meetings to wait for their turn. The ability for people to take part remotely has helped to remove most of this problem, and we have seen participation increase, especially from groups that were previously excluded because they could not attend physically. Increasing access in this way has been one of the positive legacies of the pandemic. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Dr Tim Hawkins. Mrs Miller, do you have any supplementary question? Thank you. Thank you. Yes, just one. Council would also like to know if planning committee members are visiting application sites yet, prior to committee meetings to talk about applications. Council, could you turn your microphone off please? Thank you. Council, Dr Tim Hawkins. Thank you, Chair. We are not yet visiting sites. Again, we are taking account of the coronavirus recommendations, guidelines, and it's something that we will look at being able to implement as soon as we possibly can. Thank you very much. We're happy to keep them updated as of when that happens. Thank you very much for your questions, Mrs Miller. Thank you for taking part in the meeting. I now invite Mrs Margaret Starkey to ask her question. Is Mrs Margaret Starkey in the room or remotely? Do we have Mrs Margaret Starkey on the remote connection? Mrs Margaret Starkey, we can neither hear you nor see you. Can you hear me now, Chair? Yes, we can hear you now. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Do you go ahead with your question, Mrs Starkey? My question is to the whole council. Given South Council's commitment to its zero carbon strategy, will the council take responsibility for monitoring the combined carbon footprint of both North East Cambridge Area Action Plan project and Cambridge Wastewater Treatment Plant Relocation project? Currently, Anglian Water takes responsibility for the carbon footprint of the proposed construction at the new site should it pass the DCO. But Anglian Water has stated that the developers will be responsible for the carbon footprint associated with the decontaminating the site at Cowley Road. The carbon footprint produced by decommissioning and decontamination of the current site will contribute to the overall carbon footprint of the proposed site, which is at Honey Hill, which is within the area of South Cambridgeshire District Council. We don't want the carbon footprint to fall between two stones. I understand your question. Thank you, Mrs Starkey. Chancellor Dr Tumi Hawkins, would you like to respond? Thank you for your question, Mrs Starkey. Hopefully, what I'm going to tell you will answer that. The local plan proposes to regenerate the North East Cambridge site on the basis that the water treatment plant has relocated. The redevelopment of that site in planning terms is a separate process to the building of a new wastewater treatment plant at the proposed Honey Hill site. I will have to decouple the link that you have made in your question in order to be able to answer it. South Cambridgeshire District Council cannot take responsibility for work being done on the development consent order process. The relocation is being done through that decision process and is overseen by the Ministry of Housing, Committees and Local Government, which has just recently been changed to the debatment of levelling up and housing. Therefore, the carbon footprint impacts of the proposed new site is a matter for Anglia Water to consider through that process and will be monitored through the policies that are agreed in that process. Anglia Water would also have to create a sustainability appraisal of the impact of their development at that new location. Once we would like to hold their feet to the fire on this matter, we will have to wait to see the details of the decision process. Now, back to the North East Cambridge site and the former wastewater plant. The owners will be working on the decommissioned site, the form of which is still yet unknown. However, what we know is that the development of a brownfield site like that will require more mitigation than a greenfield site. Is it correct that the developers will be responsible for the carbon footprint associated with contaminating the site at Cowley Road? So, I will reiterate in planning terms, South Camp District Council can only be responsible for implementation of its policies on the North East Cambridge site. The sustainability appraisal will consider the cumulative impacts on the area action plan and indeed the local plan with other plans and projects, including those being taken forward by other organisations, including that of the wastewater treatment plan. Finally, the new development in the area covered by the area action plan will be subject to our net zero carbon buildings policies, which will require all new development to be net zero carbon from an operational energy perspective, as well as looking to reduce embodied carbon from adoption of the plan. So policies for measuring carbon footprint associated with the construction phase will be monitored through the development management process using appropriately worded planning conditions. Thank you. Thank you, Mrs Starkey. Mrs Starkey, did you have a supplementary question? A comment, if I may. Councillor Hawking's used the term decoupling, and it's the decoupling that we worry about in not only this, but in other aspects of these two very major developments. However, we will be monitoring the sustainability appraisal very carefully. But if I could be total pedant, can I just point out one point? The current site is not brownfield, it is a commercial site. A site only becomes brownfield when it has been left unused for some time. And this has led to an ability to talk about brownfield sites being regenerated and the effect on the green belt being set aside. But thank you very much both Councillor Hawking's and Councillor Bradnham for the opportunity to ask the question. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mrs Starkey. We move on to item 7, petitions. No petitions have been received for consideration at this meeting. So item 8a, this is Cabinet from the 6th of September 2021, looking at the 2020-2021 provisional general fund revenue and capital outturn. This is on pages 17 to 26 of our agenda pack. And could I ask the lead member for finance to present the report on the recommendation of Cabinet as stated in the papers? Councillor John Williams. Thank you, Chair. This report reviews the provisional general fund reserve and capital outturn position for the financial year 2020-21 with general fund reserve balances as of 31st of March 2021 and asks that we agree for post changes to the capital programme. Please note that this report concerns the revised revenue budget produced for the COVID-19 pandemic. The report provides a statement of the year-end financial position and progress with the approved capital investment project. You will appreciate last year to the end of March because of the COVID-19 pandemic was a difficult year with expectations of lower tax yields and less commercial income. In the end our reps and bens team did us proud coming top in the country for a council tax collection and our business support team by helping local business so quickly enabled us to continue to be one of the top in the country for the collection of business rates. With business rates collection we were half a million pounds down on the budget figure that this could have been much worse as many councils experienced. This outstanding performance in the collection of council tax and business rates not only benefited us but also the county and the police and fire services. Also our participation in the business rates pool with other local authorities in Cambridgeshire has once again borne through with some 307,000 pounds being received above that fall cut. As to commercial income even here the drop in income was less than some had feared and I thank the efforts of Urban Street to support its tenants enabling it to minimise the effect of COVID-19 on its loan repayments to the council. In the end as you can see from the table in paragraph 8 income and expenditure from commercial income was pretty much in line with expectations. Taken you to the table in paragraph 11 at the end of the 2021 financial year we had slightly less of a deficit than we had budgeted for after income from taxation and government grants by £281,000 which means the appropriation from our general fund reserves to balance the books has been just under £2 million. The appropriation of £1.994 million leaves the general fund on earmark reserve at a very healthy £14.5 million demonstrating that this council is in a very sound financial position. As paragraph 13 explains the original pre-COVID-19 budget assumed that nearly £1.5 million would be added to the general fund and that this was revised to having to take nearly £2.3 million from the fund to balance the budget due to the predicted negative effects of the pandemic. In the end we've had to draw on just under £2 million. Turning to the general fund capital programme the biggest variances in monetary terms have occurred in our commercial activities where the loaning of money to Ermine Street and the further development of our commercial portfolio was affected by COVID-19 pandemic and the latter changes to the Public Works Loan Ball rules. While a number of capital projects were also delayed and have slipped to 2021-22 we propose to take forward these underspends. Ermine Street can complete its mission to own 500 properties in accordance with its business plan and to allow us to maintain the funding pop for our continuing commercial investment strategy. On this last point, as we say in the report the investment strategy is now under review as a result of the government's revision of the lending rules for the Public Works Loan Ball. I therefore ask that council agree to carry forwards of £2.081 million for the slippage of general fund capital projects such as the replacement of street cleansing vehicles and approve the additional lending of £5.237 million to enable Ermine Street housing to meet its target of 500 property purchases as described in paragraph 20. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor John Williams. May I call for a seconder? Yes, Chair, I'd like to second that. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Peter McDonald. Would anybody like to ask any questions? Councillor Heather Williams. Thank you, Chair. Just a couple of questions and maybe a comment. I mean, it's great to see that Ermine Street is still providing us with a sound investment and sound finance. And also the work that has been done by officers to collect the funds and support businesses has been very well received and has been hard earned, so the officers do deserve full credit for that. I have a question around slippage and I'm slightly disappointed to Councillor Wright that it's not here for my analogy, but slippage can be a little bit like black grass in a field. You see Councillor Peter Fane nodding, he knows what I'm going to refer to. So you first of all see a couple of bits here and there and before you know it, the whole field's gone. So what I would like is some reassurance from the lead member of finance, Chair, that this slippage is catch, we're able to catch it up and that what we're not going to do is have further slippage and more slippage as a consequence, because if that is the case and if officers need more resources then what is the plan to deal with that? Thank you, Chair. Sorry, Councillor Heather Williams, thank you. Do you want to respond? Thank you, Chair. Well on slippage, when we fought, went to Cabinet, it was, it went together with quite a detailed explanation on the various slippages. So you can find an explanation for those slippages in that report. I would say that most of the slippage has come about because of the effects of COVID and the difficulties that we have had in sourcing not only materials but in also experienced trades people to carry out the work. But as you would have seen from the report that went to Cabinet, that it is intended that we will catch up on these slippages next year. Thank you, Councillor John Williams. Councillor Cranford, Chamberlain, did you wish to speak? If I may, Chair, thank you very much. I say so, it's lovely to see you here. Thank you, it's good to be back. I'd like to ask what proportion of our commercial property pleasantly remains with our tenancy in place. And what the possible loss of revenue was as a result of that unoccupied property? Chair, I don't have that information on my fingertips but we will respond to that. A response that we provided in writing. Great, thank you very much. So no further requests to speak that I can see. Councillor Peter McDonald, did you wish to say anything? Sorry, I meant to ask you if you wanted to speak in something else. No, that's fine, Chair, thank you. So in that case, are members content to take this decision by affirmation? Agreed? Anybody against? Anybody wishing to abstain? Okay, so this council therefore, sorry for the pause, we'd just like to point out this council therefore agrees this motion by affirmation. Before we go any further, I'd like to take a five minute pause to enable people to have a comfort break and also to undertake any action that they need to. Thank you. Can we come back at five minutes past three please? Thank you for coming back. I just wanted to ask for the purposes of audio. Apparently the people listening remotely are finding the audio rather quiet and as a result we have had to turn the volume up which is causing some of the feedback. So members, including myself, can we try to bring our microphones close and speak clearly into our microphones so that everyone can hear us out there in the ether please? Thank you. So turning to item 8B, this is on pages 27 and 32 of our agenda. This is Cabinet on the 6th of September 2021. This is the 2020-21 provisional housing review account out term. May I call on the lead member for finance to present the report on the recommendation of Cabinet as stated in the papers. Thank you Councillor John Williams. Thank you chair. This report gives the out term position of the provisional housing revenue account and I move the recommendations in paragraph 5. Last one actual year was as we all know and as we've seen from the revenue account, a difficult year particularly for house building and repair because of the COVID-19 pandemic. You can see from the table in paragraphs 8, 9 and 10 the negative impact this has had on the out term of the 2021 housing revenue account and from the table in paragraph 13 the capital account. As a result so far as the housing revenue account is concerned a gross expenditure was down by £1.203 million while our gross capital expenditure was down by £5.164 million. In these exceptional circumstances I recommend to council that with regard to the capital budget we carry forward £1.822 million in relation to HRA housing improvements and £1.213 million in relation to HRA house building. And with regard to the revenue budget we carry forward £35,000 to support the retender of the response and the cyclical repairs contract. Thank you. Thank you very much councillor John Williams. Do you have a second of these? I believe we got that. Yes I have a second of that. Thank you councillor John Bachelor. Do you wish to speak or to reserve you one? I reserve my right to speak again. Thank you very much. So we didn't really ask like to speak councillor Ellington. Go ahead councillor Ellington. Thank you Chairman. Yes I just wondered whether we could be assured that some of this bring forward revenue could be used to ensure that council houses are insulated to an acceptable standard to meet the green agenda. Thank you. Thank you councillor Ellington. councillor John Williams. I'll leave it to the lead men for housing to respond to that. Thank you very much. Yes I can assure you that new builds are of the highest standard and in fact we are up here at Camborn. We will be going for a zero carbon that requires very good insulation. So the answer that is yes we are. Thank you. Thank you. Did you want to ask a supplementary question? I was really thinking about the houses that we already own rather than the new ones. It's very much easier to do new than it is to do old. Councilor John Bachelor. Yes I'm happy to answer that. We're working towards a refit programme we've just come to completion of an exercise with Southampton University where we're experimenting with different sorts of refit systems and from those we're now going into another review which concentrates on the costs clearly the costs to tenants key elements of all this. So we're not ready yet to go forward but we are working on it and we will certainly be in a position to put this into the refit programme within the next few months. Thank you. Councilor Heather Williams. Thank you chair. Following a similar line of questioning on the basis that we all know that a lot of our carbon footprint the big issue is going to be from the existing stock and houses that are here rather than the new to come. So I'm just wondering what sort of time scales are that being put in place where we envisage council stock being zero carbon. Councilor John Butler. Right, thank you very much. I'm not sure I actually caught the full question there. Was that how are we going to deal with the time scale? The time scale in which you put? Yeah, clearly we're five and a half thousand existing houses this is a huge project and a very costy one. So we're making it sure that what we're going to do is right and is cost effective. So once we've got that right in the next few months we will set out on the full programme to eventually do the entire stock but this will be over a number of years inevitably given the funding costs involved here. Thank you councilor butchlow. Councilor Ruth Davidson. Thank you chair. I absolutely appreciate what the council bachelor has just said about the difference between the new and the old stock. I just wondered about Camborn, is that new enough or is that considered old and has to be refitted? Councilor John Butler. Thank you. The new builds for Camborn will be zero carbon. Sorry. The existing ones here will be part of a programme certainly but as I say it's more than five and a half thousand houses a huge project and it will take time. Thank you. Let's see any other requests to speak. So are we members happy to make the recommendations as set out on page 27 to 28? That's recommendations 5a to d. Agreed? Does anybody wish to vote against or to abstain? Great. So the council therefore agrees the motion by affirmation. Thank you members. Moving on we come to item 8c on page 23 of our agenda. This is the licensing committee from 7 September 2021 the gambling act 2005 review of the statement of licensing policy and although I'm chair of the licensing committee I call on the lead member for environmental services and licensing to present a report on the recommendations of the licensing committee as stated in the papers. Thank you. Councillor Brian Mills. Thank you chair. I'd like to propose this motion to adopt an updated gambling policy once the excuse me my notes there we go and I'd like to thank our new licensing officer and manager Rachel Jackson who's done the work behind this as members will be aware from the report the council is required to review its statement of gambling licensing policy every three years so the new policy must be in place by January 2002 so I'm recommending that the council adopts the policy with its minor revisions as detailed in the report which will take effect in January next year the licensing committee have reviewed the policy under its meeting of the 7th of September it agreed to recommend the council that the policy be adopted subject to the inclusion of the definition of the term children and young persons so I propose the motion to adopt the policy. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Mills and I would like to propose I second the motion but I'd also like to propose an amendment and we have the wording I believe as the wording which relates to this definition of children I'll just read it out to you while we're getting the wording displayed I think just to clarify at the committee it was requested that the definition of age should be inserted for clarity and the wording that we hope to put in when it comes up on the screen is the gambling act defines quotes child as an individual who is less than 16 years old and young person means an individual who is not a child but who is less than 18 years old and we propose to insert that wording members if I take you to page 44 of the agenda which is page 8 in the policy and we will insert that wording under the heading sorry I'll wait till you get there under that the heading protecting children and other vulnerable persons from being harmed or exploited by gambling there are two paragraphs there the second of which says this licensing authority is also aware of the gambling commission codes of practice as regards this licensing objective in relation to specific premises and it's proposed that we insert this definition of age at that point the gambling act defines child as an individual who is less than 16 years old and a young person means an individual who is not a child but who is less than 18 years old in there and then we go on to as regards the term vulnerable persons it's noted that the gambling commission does not seek to offer a definition but gives clear guidance so members are you happy to accept that amendment thank you very much thank you very much thank you slightly later than intended thank you very much so are we happy to take does anybody wish to debate discuss comment no so are we happy to take that decision by affirmation thank you very much anybody wish to oppose or abstain no lovely and as chair of the licensing committee thank you very much indeed to members for accepting that so we move on to HD which is the code sorry I think we just voted on the amendment and we actually sorry you're quite right yes sorry so that becomes the substantive sorry that becomes the substantive motion so item amended thank you are we happy delighted okay we're all agreed that that wording goes in and that the policy is amended as referred to in the papers thank you very much so HD on page 51 of our papers is the recommendation of civic affairs committee from its meeting on the 9th September 2021 adoption of the model code of conduct and this starts on page 51 of our agenda as I'm chair of this committee as well as by virtue of my chairmanship of the council but I'm chairing this meeting may I call on councillor Heather Williams as chair of a task and finish group which presented a report on this matter to civic affairs committee to present a report on the recommendation of civic affairs as stated in the papers councillor Heather Williams thank you chair so CS the process of the code of conduct that was brought before us originally from the LGA was it came to the anti-villian task and finish group with myself councillor under there and councillor Mason who looked at it it's longer than the current code of conduct that we have but I think we all agreed that it was longer in the right way there is an awful lot more around bullying and harassment and also bringing into the 21st century by a baby so bold of the challenges that we face today I think with that in mind we were supportive of bringing this forward and recommended it to civic affairs and civic affairs was happy by unanimous vote we did discuss the implementation of when the code of conduct should come into force and it was suggested that this should be in May 2022 although we would hope that members of course would adhere to these henceforth there is significant change in the way that the interests are declared and there will be three rather than two categories it's an awful lot of administration as well in relation to those changes to the interests now given there are district and parish council elections in May 2022 and it's normally common practice that the majority of parish councils do follow the district council's lead it was felt that that would be the correct time to bring it in into force and also that full training will be arranged because of the significant changes in those and I think other than the movement is forward and saying that I think it will definitely definitely bring much much better guidance but it's not exhaustive on bullying and harassment it's something that people associate with school it doesn't stop at the school playgrounds we all know that it carries on and it has no place in any organisation particularly ours and that I'm sure none of us would want to see that happening and therefore we'll adopt this code of conduct thank you very much councillor I believe councillor Dr Dair Clare Daunton would like to second this yes thank you chair yes I'm content to second this it started live as a recommendation from council that I made to the civic affairs committee that we look at along with Dr Douglas Delacy our former chairman that we look at the model at the draft model code of conduct which the LGA was then discussing and had put online very good document cross-party support and we then followed that through at civic affairs so I'm really content to second this thank you very much councillor Dr Clare Daunton would anybody else like to make a comment I believe councillor Sue Ellington to speak thank you chairman one of the things that really really upsets me is when you're talking to a member of the public and it is inferred that somebody got planning permission or some decision was made in their favour because of back handers to a councillor I find this just totally unacceptable and I feel that this code of conduct is helping us to show that we do have rules and we do have laws and we do not do things for our own personal gain and I really am very grateful to the committee for producing this new code thank you thank you councillor Ellington councillor Dr Clare Daunton yes thank you very much chair yes I was on the task and finish group with councillor Williamson councillor Mason firstly I'd like to thank officers the range of officers who supported us on all the aspects that we are looking at relation bullying and also on the new code of conduct and all the code of conduct we are I think adopting the LGA's code as a whole which I think is great and very sensibly again on helpful advice implementing it from next May so we've got a little bit of time to get to grips with it there are these significant changes as councillor Heather Williams highlighted around the definitions of the interests how and when we declare them the report goes into that but I think we are all going to need to spend a lot of time thinking it through getting our heads around how it applies to us and how we communicate that but I'm very glad that we should be hopefully able to adopt this now Thank you councillor van de Vyre councillor John Bachelor Thank you very much I'm looking at page 65 item 4 Disclosable Pecuniary Interests I see this in B applies only to your spouse or civil partner Could I just clarify that that is correct and you cannot have a Disclosable Pecuniary Interests in wider members of your family Thank you Just could I ask councillor about to which point was that It's 4 on page 65 Thank you very much, thank you and I think Thank you chair so through you that is correct but Disclosable Pecuniary Interests are codified in law so that's actually set out within the localism act what you will see if members do approve the model code I suggested today that there are now going to be other categories of interests which will probably catch the scenario to which you are referring to and will tighten up the rules in respect of that there one thing I would say is that obviously there will be full training given to members not only in the lead up to May 2022 but also for those members who are re-elected or elected in May 2022 Thank you Mr McKenna I believe councillor Bridget Smith would like to speak to the leader Thank you very much indeed I just responding to councillor Sue Ellington's comment and I think we all share your unhappiness about this I think there's some stuff banding around on social media taking brown envelopes as we speak and we just have to rise above this nonsense and ignore it Having said that I've been asked to take part in a member task and finish task group at the local government association on civility in public life and I'll be very happy to report back on that now obviously members of the public can kind of say what they want about us the sadness is when it's other people in public life saying bad things about and telling lies basically about other people in public life and so the LGA is extremely unhappy about this and councillor James Jamieson who is the leader of the LGA is particularly aerated on the matter so I will be very happy to report back to you because I know the problems go from the top down to the bottom and it's something that needs to be nipped in the garden Thank you councillor Smith councillor Roberts Thank you very much chairman and through you chairman I think it's a great deal of effort has been put into re-looking at this by the working party I'm just a little bit concerned that it talks about it being to help us as councillors but actually I'm not quite sure how clear and clarifying it is to members of the public reading some of this and going forward from councillor John Williams I still think it's very hard to quite clearly understand what we are supposed to be doing of parish councils I've got a particular concern at the moment regarding what is a peculary interest what is non-peculary, what you have to declare what you don't have to declare when you have to leave the room when you can stay in the room when you can stay in the room and say nothing at all and I think it needs some work on that I think it's very difficult but one of the villages that I represent at the moment there's a situation where a planning a planning application was in front of the planning committee who then decided that they wouldn't take part in it make any comment whatsoever as a member of the parish council would be possibly detrimentally affected but it wasn't actually the member of the parish council's application they were just somebody who lived in the area and I found that I found it very worrying I'm still trying to get to the bottom of it so I may talk to Rory about that particular one but I don't think it's as clear as it should be I think it needs a little bit more plain English and it's still a little bit too legalistic and I've got concern on that Thank you, Chairman Thank you, Councillor Roberts So no further requests to speak Sorry, Councillor Cathart I must have been a little raised in the city committee about having a I agree with the recommendation May is rather a long time six months away from the agreement discussed it it would seem preferable to everyone to implement it virtually straight away very soon because it's things can go wrong or things can be addressed through a code and it's nice to feel it's in place having agreed it that's my feeling maybe there's a very good reason for having it in May and I agree for the purpose of neatness but it's just seems better now rather than six months time Thank you, Councillor Cathart I think our legal advisor will come back on that I think there's two things that I would say and these have possibly been covered in the debate already but one of the reasons for suggesting the May implementation data is because there is a change in the registration of interest that will require not only the form to be amended but for new forms to be completed and also there will be training required because the training is going to have to be implemented before the forms are sent out now with the 106 parishes for instance within the district felt that that was a cumbersome and anonorous task to ask them to perform at this stage when it'll have to be redone in May 2022 I don't think it's a case that the current system is broken I just think that this code will strengthen the existing provisions Thank you Mr McKenna So does anybody feel are you content to take this by affirmation then Members? Great Does anybody wish to go against the proposal? Anybody wish to abstain? Okay so thank you very much the council therefore agrees the motion by affirmation so members we move on to item 9 the medium term financial strategy May I call on the lead member for finance to present sorry this is on our page 133 of our agendas May I call on the lead member for finance to present a report on the recommendation of cabinet as stated in the papers Thank you councillor John Williams Thank you chair This report reviews and updates the council's 5 year medium term financial strategy or MTFS which delivers the council's aspirations as set out in the refreshed business ban approved by council last May You are asked to acknowledge the projected changes in service spending and the overall resources available to the council over the term of the MTFS and to approve the refreshed strategy and updated financial forecast We are doing this now before the start of the budget making process for the next financial year in line with best practice Of course we can't be certain about future government intentions until its local government spending review which normally takes place before Christmas but this report does however ensure that the council is aware of the financial challenges over the medium term and the financial forecast outlined in the MTFS assisting the council's financial planning Looking at the table in paragraph 25 you will see that this report moves us on a financial year from the MTFS agreed by council in February and therefore covers the period from 2022-23 to 2026-27 Compare this report to the previous one you will see that we forecast that the net resource position for 2022-23 will improve from a saving of £281,000 to £354,000 with forecast deficits in subsequent years also improving So at the end of the new five-year period we are now forecasting a deficit of less than £4.5 million compared to the £5.1 million in the five years to 2025-26 There are two main reasons for this improvement Firstly we had previously assumed that payment for new homes would cease after 2022-23 There are indications now that the new homes bonus will be replaced with something else So given the level of new homes growth in the existing local plan an additional £1 million has been forecast for each year from 2022-23 Secondly the fair funding review may not now be implemented until 2023-24 and because of this the forecast is to retain business rates for 2022-23 has not been increased It is assumed that the fair funding review will reduce the level of retained business rates for this council Of course these gains are offset in part by a forecast drop in commercial investment yield because of the change to the public work slow ball rules which prevent investment purely for commercial gain which I alluded to in a previous report Please remember these financial forecasts are based upon the latest assumptions and modelling data that these forecasts should be treated with caution as the final position is uncertain until the provisions of the post 2022-23 spending review are known and are eventually confirmed Sometimes this doesn't happen until the new year Nevertheless they give us a guide going forward and the scenario for our deliberations for next year's budget There has been concerned expressed that the current size of the revenue general fund reserve so if you look at paragraphs 2022-23 you can see the alternative scenarios we have modelled the most pessimistic of which gives us over 13 million pounds defined by 2026-27 Clearly we would be taking action to deal with negative factors much before this level of loss but it does illustrate that in these uncertain economic times we must provide for a much wider margin of error Thank you Thank you Councillor John Williams Would anybody like to raise any questions? Councillor Bridget Smith Sorry, certainly If I may just very briefly so I actually can't remember a time when local government finances weren't mired in uncertainty and it certainly doesn't get any better However I think the fact that we have weathered the storm of the pandemic which is now nearly two years so well is extraordinary and my compliments for that go to Peter Maddick and the rest of the business team for the very, very steady way in which they've steered this ship for the most difficult times I know Peter and his team have probably worked night and day actually and we've had three very important financial reports today and they deserve much of the credit for that so my thanks to them and that's probably enough Thank you very much Councillor Heather Williams So just some thoughts on this item is that we've heard from the need meant for finance that is an improvement of the situation that we saw at the budget report however I would say it is not an improvement on the basis that just two years ago in the previous budget report page 175 said that whilst the council has a record of identifying savings through service reviews and value for money improvements many such savings have already been delivered and it's becoming more difficult to identify and deliver further savings and efficiencies and at this stage we had a cumulative difference of three million so it's dramatically gone up it's come down but it's nowhere near the three million that it was two years ago so I wouldn't say it's an improvement it might be going in a direction but when you put them factor in the margin of error that's just been told to us it could equally go straight back up again the reality of the situation is in the last two years it's significantly higher than it was before now yes I completely concur that officers have kept the ship steady through credit and they're doing the absolute best in the situation that they've got but it is down to councillors sat here what direction that ship goes in and at the end of the day those political aspirations of the council have to be paid for somehow and that is not set by officers that's set by members we've just heard about the new homes bonus and that with the new local plan that's foreseen and the increased in housing means the increase of money we won't be able to find this level of savings we were saying that two years ago so our only other option is to fill the gap with growth more growth, more housing growth something that I'm sure residents would argue that we've had quite enough of in recent times so there is an option here curntail spending on political aspirations and then you might not need so many houses to pay for it and on that basis until you can show a real improvement which is a reduction from the three million that we were at I'm sorry I cannot support this at all because we will have to see more and more houses more and more growth to plug the gap Thank you councillor Williams sorry I should have said we're in debate would anyone else like to speak and would councillor John Williams like to respond Thank you chair Of course councillor Heather Williams is referring to a different five year period so it's not comparing it's comparing oranges with apples and I think it's it's not worthy of response really Thank you councillor Granville Chamberlain I believe you wish to speak Yes chair thank you very much This financial strategy is of course dependent upon us having a great deal of success in the commercial property market at this time there is still a great deal of uncertainty about what will happen with corporates requiring business space we already have heard from the member of finance that we don't know exactly how much of our property pleasantly remains unoccupied and therefore I ask what degree of confidence may we have in the performance of that property of those property investments given our lack of knowledge Thank you councillor Chamberlain councillor John Williams I didn't actually say that I didn't have the exact details at my fingertips I said that I can say most of our property is rented very small amount of it is unoccupied at the moment but most of I would say probably 90% of it is occupied at the moment and we are receiving rents from it Thank you councillor John Williams councillor Van de Vyre Whenever I've had occasion to look at these things it's been pretty clear that the costs associated with new houses in the district are greater than the funds we get other from new host bonus or councillor packs but there is a myth around it had it sort of repeated I think in the letters pages of one of the papers recently that somehow South Wales District Council is motivated to build houses so that it can make money and pay for council services so there's a little floor in the myth there but if councillor Williams has evidence that that is one of the motivations for us I think it would be helpful to see it personal explanation Chair That's for Heather Williams When I was speaking there I referred to the lead member for finance own comments about the new homes bonus and how the increases are planned so I'm afraid I'm taking it from the evidence I was given but then I'm not worthy of the member of this council so you know That is not I think what was meant but councillor John Williams would you like to respond to that and can I remind members all of your points should be through me Chair you will know that we have been receiving money for new homes in the previous administration and that the budget was going forward and five year mtfs is based on the number of new homes that they put in their local plan of 37,000 new homes over the coming years until 2031 and that is what our budget is based on it's not based on the number of new homes that we have put in that we are proposing for the next local plan it's based on the number of new homes so if you do your party decided to put in the current local plan going forward I think councillor Williams had finished could I just pause one moment there I wanted to go back to councillor to check whether he's my question had been answered would you like to make your point to councillor Williams I would like to see my point of information through yourself chair the plan is this council that was adopted by this council and voted for by I believe most people in this room so I think to say that it's you could be perhaps misleading a new party it was adopted by this administration and also that the figures were lower for example there were not 2000 extra houses at Water Beach at that point so that figure is not correct there has been building above that plan and that is what's costed into here however chair the point of information is that it's this council's local plan as voted on by all members thank you very much councillor the party councillor round of fire can I just come back to you and check that your question was answered I didn't really have a question do you have anything further so councillor Roberts thank you chairman I think we need to start actually being very sensible which I don't think we are at the moment in the past this was a council that was very prudent and very careful how it spent other people's money and I'm afraid that my opinion now is that political ambitions and virtue signalling are taking common sense and we need to actually get back to realising that these are difficult times and we can't blame it on Brexit there are lots of chair lots of people in this room would love to do just that it's a a worldwide problem at the moment there's all sorts of things happening suddenly happening coming along board what have you and it really is a time that the controlling group actually tempered its ambitions it's the old Mr McCorber one if you have a pound and you spend 19 shillings and sixpence you're happy if you have a pound and you spend 20 shillings and sixpence it's misery and that's going to be just the same here you cannot spend money that you do not have however good a cause you may think it is it is not fair on the general public who are getting taxed all over the place and we've just seen that the government have had to put the national insurance up and one can see why because we are in debt in this country to a figure a staircase leading to the moon practically and we as a local authority should be much much more prudent than we are being ambition is one thing reality is another and we should be only spending what is within our means and stop all this playing with other people's money thank you chairman thank you Councillor Roberts and good to see you Councillor Nick Wright and glad you could arrive Councillor Bridget Smith thank you I decided to pick up a comment from Councillor Grenfell Chamber Chambering about commercial investments so an article in The Times on Saturdays September 11 said the cost of renting an office in Cambridge is at its most expensive as London based companies look for a new space outside the capital to appease commuting workers during the pandemic thousands of people moved out of London in search of bigger homes and more green spaces so the fact is that we have been incredibly savvy in investing in commercial properties in Cambridge because even though we predicted there was going to be significant growth there actually thanks to the pandemic that growth has exceeded our expectations so these have turned out to be incredibly safe and savvy investments and just in relation to Councillor Deborah Roberts's point we can't provide services of the quality that people in South Cambridge are want without money and therefore it's incumbent on us and on an authority not to be lazy and just rely on council tax and government handouts but to be ambitious in looking at other ways of generating incomes so that we can not only provide services but we can provide the grants to help all those volunteer COVID groups we can provide grants to help parish councils on their zero carbon journey if we draw in the reins and just rely on handouts and council tax that will all stop and then we will hear complaints from our residents Thank you, leader Councillor Peter Macdonald Thank you chair, I'll be brief Like the leader I was really surprised by Councillor Grenfell Chamberlain's comments about investment income Of course investment income is uncertain pretty much all investment income is uncertain but he was he joined me on a very productive call with the city and south council tax and finish group in business where the indications of inward investment into south camps including the requirement for commercial office space is very significantly positive so I'm really surprised he's talking it down Thank you councillor Macdonald councillor Neil Goff Thank you chair So just one comment I want to make which is that as councillor William said when he introduced this the medium term financial strategy brings together a number of elements including the business plan Let's look off, sorry It brings together a number of elements and starts with the business plan so if we are talking about if certain members are talking about reducing investment income reducing level of expenditure I think it's incumbent but they also follow through in terms of what aspects and what deliverables in the business plan will be sacrificed in order to make those changes because at the moment the discussion has been complete Thank you councillor Goff Right I sent some dissent about this so I propose that we take this matter by a vote So we've had the vote had the motion proposed and seconded we're looking at the recommendations on page 4 at page 133 items 4a and b on our agenda OK So we're ready to take a vote then So can I clarify then all those in favour of the recommendations as on page 133 to press your blue button to say you're here and then press the green button if you are in favour of the recommendation and the red button if you are against the recommendation yellow if you abstain Members if your microphone tells you to log off please don't go away just hit back and it will bring you back in So has everybody had a chance to vote? Are we happy? So Rebecca could you tell us the outcome of the vote or is it Aaron Happy to do that chair The vote has passed 18 votes to 8 Thank you very much Aaron so that's carried So is there a suggestion that people have not been able to vote satisfactorily? It does look a bit short to be fair Yes councillor Nick Wright only arrived partway through so it would not have been entitled to vote So So I think we have got the right numbers I'm sorry No we've got one who hasn't Oh Maybe that was me who was logging out So Okay I think that's right It was me who didn't vote I was so surprised by being told to log out but I got carried away So okay I voted for the motion So are we okay then So it's still carried Are you happy then councillor Heather Williams? The maths appears to add up in councillor Vanrae I think I've still got some dissent over not being allowed to vote back here but if that's the chair it's not allowing a vote I made a note at the point at which councillor Nick Wright attended and that was at 10 to 4 So I think he would not have heard all of the debate Thank you Thank you moving on So item 10 which was the Foxham neighbourhood plan we've already dealt with So we are on to item 11 which is the Greater Cambridge partnership Executive Board I invite the deputy leader to update the council Councillor Neil Goff Thank you chair My update will be very brief because there has been no We can't hear you very well councillor Goff My update will be very brief because there has been no meeting of the Executive Board since the last meeting Thank you very much So can we just note that Thank you Councillor Williams I was going to say there has been a meeting of the assembly however and I've got some nods from Councillor Solomon and Councillor Mills because it's a comfy thing in that capacity in that the city access was discussed and one of the things that I know I spoke about at the group leaders meeting is that when our board representative is in a meeting wherever that finally occurs on city access is that it's very important that it's not just people have to be able to get round and through Cambridge but also it needs to support those people trying to travel in particularly with the Royal Negra So that's what was discussed heavily at the assembly obviously congestion charge was also raised of which there was split opinion as to whether that was suitable or not Probably minority one way then another I'm going to get nods from my colleagues So that's an update from the assembly Thank you very much Councillor Goff All of the assembly feedback goes to the board which is the decision making body Exactly, thank you very much So Councillor Cohn did you wish to speak Yes On what matter? On the Greater Cambridge partnership It was just very briefly I just wondered if it could be taken back by a Councillor Goff with regards to cycle greenways I have mentioned it in a number of briefings that have happened the offices and I know they've got a an awfully large amount of work to be dealing with on the various projects but it would be really nice to get some feedback on how those projects are coming forward and some time scales on those because we keep being told that we will be given information on that but it doesn't seem very forthcoming in terms of time scales and I know residents have had questions on it So, yes, thanks very much Thank you Councillor Cohn I'm sure that will go back to the assembly board It was raised at the assembly by Councillor Mills, my right and indeed will go back to the board Thank you Councillor Goff I'm sure you'll report to us after the next meeting Item 12 We note that update Thank you So item 12 is the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough combined authority We note that no further written update is available for this meeting and the update will be considered after the next meeting but I invite the leader to give us any update Thank you Yes, thank you We've not received any decision notice just to very quickly romp through the last board meeting The board voted to award £350,000 for an outline business case for Peterborough station I didn't support it because it involved to whopping great car parts which seemed to be encouraging car use I voted against the combined authority purchasing the IMET building which is the training centre which went bust after two years of running The proposal was that the combined authority moved into their offices somewhere else in Alcambry with no public transport connections Currently the combined authority is talking to member councils about what space they might have in order to accommodate the combined authority New chief executives arriving beginning of October so that's going to be exciting and my thanks to councillor John Bachelor who's now serving on the housing committee which is having quite a large workload at the moment My understanding from councillor Bachelor is that the previous mayor's £100,000 house scheme has been axed There's been a letter from ex-minister Generic 40 million of the missing 40-45 million is going to be coming forward for some already identified schemes I ought to believe that the transport strategy is being reworked and going back to housing there's been a big debate about reworking the whole housing strategy for the combined authority South Cambridge has managed to secure a pitifully small amount of that housing money and something needs to be addressed there to make sure the money goes where the need is greatest in terms of affordability so I thank councillor Bachelor and also councillor Goff who serves on the transport committee there for their efforts as well Thank you Thank you, leader and we note that verbal update Thank you So item 13 is on page 171 of our agenda I invite the leader to update the council on this report about the Oxford Cambridge Arc Thank you Everything that needs to be said is written in the report Thank you very much Members, do you have any questions? Yes, I can see it right I need a list here I have councillor Roberts I saw councillor Williams Was that councillor Nick Wright I saw somebody further down I'm not quite sure who it was Maybe they'll put their hands up in due course So we've got councillor Roberts Thank you chairman and through you chairman At page 172 at paragraph 8 second paragraph on that page I'm afraid looking at that paragraph fills me with overwhelming horror the fact that now all the ten universities in the arc are now running together running together, running together, both things and that they say that the university's aim is to build a region into the largest line science is cluster in the world Now they may think it's great because they're going to get loads of money for their universities Maybe they're short because the Chinese aren't turning up anymore or in such numbers But the That's a rubbish Yep It's a fact, we know that China's having trouble coming But the thing is chairman that what they are saying here appears to me that it's going to have huge effects on this district A lot of the other areas I don't think it will work particularly but we know what's happening in this area and it's not good in the future quality of life for our residents The universities may think it's wonderful and looking forward to it but the majority of our residents already feel under pressure and overdeveloped and are actually horrified We have talked earlier about the amount of housing that we are now seemingly going forward for the local plan I'm afraid that if this ambition of the universities goes on we will be needing the FACUM project and this is something we ought to be fighting We just should not be going along with this art business It's a recipe for disaster for our residents Thank you, Councillor Roberts I think there are two separate things We move on to Councillor Wright and I also note that Councillor Cathcart would like to speak Councillor Wright Thank you chairman and through you my questions are principally to the leader The first one is to do with the environment committee which I think she chairs for this group You were not here at the point Sorry, the lead member for the environment group as she told us at the last meeting Since that last meeting the wildlife trusts have come out with the group of others that are involved in it saying what an appalling thing this is and particularly going for south camps with the roots that are suggested and I wondered if she wanted to comment on the response of the wildlife trusts and what she can do to protect our district The other thing is she talked about the responsibility of the stakeholders would have in this project Now south camps is a stakeholder in this project as it goes right through our district I still have not heard from this administration any strategy or vision for what they want for this district from this project we need some clarity right at the beginning at what they're expecting to gain from it or lose from it So I'd like the leader to address those two points Thank you chair You are right Leader would you like to respond? Thank you So in response to councillor Roberts I can't speak for universities in the trade completely inappropriate for me to do so In relation to councillor Wright's questions the chair of that working group is Liz Watts Archive of the Deck and we're very lucky that she's leading that group So I have publicly supported the statement that came predominantly from the RSPB I think they're absolutely right I was disappointed as was the whole of the Arch environment working group about the lack of narrative in the consultation relating to the environment and the fact that the Arch environment principles which that working group have worked incredibly hard to put together with a large evidence base behind it were not referenced when I challenged the lead civil servant on this last week the response I got was that they didn't want to give any one group undue influence in the consultation and very in mind the working group includes representatives from DEFRA and the environment agency that's all a bit of a nonsense really so they've got a robust challenge there So I have publicly supported that statement and I have publicly supported it when I chaired the annual conference of Natural Cambridgeshire week before last so and in relation to what we want out of the Archism Administration what we want for South Cambridgeshire is what is in our emerging local plan and what we have said and what will be said in our response to the consultation which we'll be going to Cabinet on I think the 1st of October is that we expect the whatever the government wants because this is a government project and the government is being directed out of number 10 now we expect it to be supportive of the delivery of our local plans and not to interfere with them in any way. Once it starts to deviate from that then we will have something to say about it Thank you, leader So, councillor Caffecarch My concerns have largely been addressed by the leader I was concerned that under the emerging local plan which was sort of screwed to me only a couple of days ago it was highlighted the importance of protecting our local plan and improving it in fact that's the key word improving it and my fundamental concern would be to make sure our local plan actually align with our comments on the 1st of October to Cabinet in fact to make sure that we stress the importance we attach to the improvement of local environment in a variety of ways and this has to be fully highlighted, fully embedded in our response and we need to follow it through on any subsequent discussions and consultations in a determined and coherent way I'm sure that will be done but my point needs to be made clearly at this stage, thank you Thank you councillor Caffecarch councillor Heather Williams Thank you chair I'm afraid my frustration of chair are very similar to that that have gone before within this report nowhere do we see what the leader of the council chairman is saying at these meetings she's now been attending meetings across for these three years we have nothing at all in front of us ever to know what is being said what is the representation from this council so I would argue that we're really at a point where how are we meant to hold the leader to account if she will not share with us her actions and what she is saying or doing on this matter now perhaps a condition of our attendance could be that minutes are taken and they're brought back anything would be better than the absolute absence of what there is at the moment we cannot hold the leader to account on actions that we know nothing about and all is it we've just heard chair that we'll have something to say if it comes in conflict with plans so are we to believe that the leader goes to these meetings and says absolutely nothing is it conflict I mean we just haven't got a clue I think it's time we go to believe an opportunity so you need to direct Councillor Williams your complaints to the government because it is the government who have determined the way that the arc is being run at the moment in that these are not the meeting of the leaders are not public meetings there is not an arc website and that's because of that what the government dict act is this is a centrally controlled project we have the most centralized government in Europe we were in Europe and that is what the government is determining so the arc is being run in exactly the way that number 10 and the prime minister I now believe want it to be run so that's why these meetings are not public meetings that is why there are no minutes of these meetings in the public agenda that is why there is no arc website and the government have stopped the leaders group producing a website so you know this complaint comes up again again and this is the liberal democrat leaders on the arc who are constantly complaining about this so it's nice to hear you reiterate our complaints thank you thank you Councillor Richard Williams point of personal explanation you've had that question answered thank you Councillor Williams okay what is your point of personal explanation Councillor Williams my point that my question was about the leader so is the leader saying that she isn't forbidden and not allowed to say what she said no the leader has said that there is no minutes chair we have not had an explanation why the leader of this council refuses to tell us a single thing of what she has said at these meetings my understanding is that leader explained very clearly that the terms under which this arrangement of this meeting is held are governed by the government and not by the leaders would you like to respond very happy in one of our group leaders meetings to talk for as long as you want about what's said in those meetings well that's it's the government who say it's got to be run the way it is I cannot are you saying that you are commercial sensitive this is inappropriate chair to have one at a time at least please Councillor Bridget Smith I've said all I'm going to say on the subject I think we'll try again next time to get an answer yes Councillor Richard Williams thank you chair this is actually just a note for you rather than anybody else universities have been mentioned so I feel I should put on the record I do work for one of them although I do largely share Councillor Roberts concern and I don't work in the life sciences but I thought I would make that clear thank you councillor Dr Richard Williams as we register your point of interest and Councillor Peter McDonald yes briefly chair I mean there's a labyrinth smokescreen being thrown up I think everybody can see that from councillor Wright and councillor Heather Williams we as the South West Cambridgeshire Action Group fighting the plans for Bacon for development as part of the act of Opscam are a filed multiple freedom of request information as they know perfectly well all of them have been refused by the MHCLG and we understand they were refused on the specific orders of the Secretary of State and the reasons that they were refused was it was not in the public interest so don't come into this chamber and raise spurious claims about the Opscam arc when your government is driving headlong and refusing all requests point of information councillor and less of the points of personal information councillor Heather Williams you need to come clean what your government is doing it's our government councillor Peter McDonald point of order point of personal explanation councillor Heather Williams point of information chairman it's the job of the opposition group at this council to hold the administration and the cabinet to account we are fulfilling that function it is our job to ask these questions it's our job to hold to account what goes on in national politics well referring me to MPs or anything else like that I am asking the leader what she's saying in a meeting representing this council councillor Heather Williams I refer to your standing orders which point out that a point of information relates to not only be made where a member is aware that the council has incorrect information before it on a material point and I do not believe that is the case in this situation we've been told very clearly what the circumstances are of the meetings of the ox cam arc and I'm going to move on now I'm moving on councillor Nick Wright thank you well my name was mentioned by councillor Peter McDonald who has got very red in the face talking about this I am perfectly entitled to ask the leader any question I like we can't have personal comments about people that's really not right no you do not comment on people's opinions excuse me we do not could I finish what I was saying no just a moment councillor Wright it is quite correct that we should not refer to any of our members in that way carry on with your point if you wish well that's very kind thank you chairman my point is that my ward is at threat from a station and 25,000 houses around it which aren't in the local plan it may be penciled in the local plan but nobody knows for certain where the route is yet just as well as councillor McDonald I am entitled to ask questions that concern my ward and cause anxiety in my ward and it's quite right that the leader should be in a position to answer those questions and I think she answered them well which I appreciate thank you thank you very much councillor Wright moving on we come to item oh sorry councillor Brian Milne sorry I didn't see thank you chair just very briefly I want to add two further frustrations that come from the government in respect of the environment on the Oscar mark the A428 is a national highways project they won't even adopt LTN 120 which is a cycling guidance that comes from the government in terms of the east west rail another example where the DFT in 2017 actually denied the possibility of that rail line being electrified and that was a certain minister called Chris Grayling thank you thank you very much we move on to item 14 this is on page little 3 of the agenda this is appointments member your attention is drawn this is appointments to committees and other bodies and your attention is drawn to the changes in membership or roles for the committees and other bodies and set out in the agenda the first appointment requires us to vote and we are asked A to note and endorse that the chief executive has appointed the head of climate environment and waste and that is Alla Borde to replace the previous head of environment and waste Trevor Nicholl as the officer representation on the investment partnership board is there a proposal for that? Councillor Henry Batchelor thank you and Councillor Henry Batchelor proposes that appointment as to the staffing committee and is there Councillor Brian Mills thank you so actually can I just say welcome to buddy as the head of service he's got a big task ahead and I'm looking forward to working with him thank you and I would personally like to welcome Bode too and I hope he enjoys our company members does anybody wish to vote against that proposal? I content to take this decision by affirmation does anybody wish to object or abstain go to the council therefore agrees the motion by affirmation thank you next we're asked at B to note any changes in the membership of committees and substitute appointments which have been made in accordance with the wishes of the leader of the political group to which the seats concerned have been allocated so are there any other changes of appointments to committee to note from the political group leaders? no no I'm going to look to them service and I think I made an environmental group substitute arrangements at the last meeting I can't quite remember when they were so I did it in between meeting if you haven't got any thought the substitute change had taken place by decision at the previous meeting or since then so it would have been your recorded decision so it can be reported today certainly in that case I need to report that thank you very much we'll report that as noted and and Councillor Cazcart okay thank you Councillor Roberts oh no okay what a group anymore sorry right are there any changes to membership of outside bodies? no Councillor Heather Williams any changes to outside bodies? no okay so questions from councillors item 15 these are on pages 3 to 5 of the agenda lead sheets so members you are reminded that a period of 30 minutes is available for questions I'm just wondering whether anybody wants to take a pause before we start yes should we just take a pause five minutes members and we'll come back at about half past four or as soon after as soon thereafter as possible on item 15 page little 3 in our agendas remember we have members a period of 30 minutes is available for questions this includes the questions which notice has been provided has set out on the agenda and if there's still time remaining after those questions of notice have been dealt with we will deal with any questions which have been notified to the democratic services manager in writing before the start of this meeting so councillor Sue Ellington would you like to ask another question? thank you chairman it says on the order papers thank you thank you very much so councillor Dr Tumi Hawkins would you like to respond? yes thank you chairman paragraph 59 of the IPF 2021 highlights that planning enforcement is a discretionary process and it states that and I quote local planning authorities should act proportionately in responding to suspected breaches of planning control quote now this national guidance relates to all categories of planning enforcement including those to do with compliance issues and in terms of conditions attached to planning approvals for developments being implemented in accordance with approved plans now the councill's enforcement policy requires us first to seek to negotiate a resolution first before resorting to formal enforcement action which should be seen as a last resort the council is aware of a number of live construction sites where concerns have been raised by local residents about delays in taking formal action in response to compliance issues that have a negative impact on the community and some examples of this include sites on Nostra and in Lenton it should be noted that during the first 12 months of COVID-19 epidemic government guidance issued in a Westminster ministerial statement S234 of 13th May 2020 advised local authorities not to take formal enforcement action including in respect of ongoing construction sites other than in the most exceptional circumstances we subsequently wrote to parish councils online of June 2020 to inform them of this and as part of the shared planning service review process the council will be carrying out a review of enforcement processes and procedures with the objective of delivering a more responsive service including streamline the process for serving of enforcement and related notices and of course I reiterate that this council recognises the importance of demonstrating to developers and local communities that it takes riches of planning control very seriously thank you chair thank you council doctor councillor Sue Wellington do you wish to ask a supplementary question yes please I'm really concerned that the reputation of the council when the owner of our housing extension in my village and this was a resident rather than building company which he had produced inappropriate cladding on against the planning permission that he had received he was asked to remove it but then was asked to seek retrospective planning permission which actually went to our council committee and was refused but the planning department decided not to enforce that decision so that cladding still sits there and it seems to me that this brings the council into disrepute it demonstrates a waste of money time and reputation councillor Eddington councillor Dr Timmy Hawkins do you wish to respond thank you chairman and through you I am sorry to hear of that particular it's not one that I am aware of specifically but I would ask you to please contact me after this meeting and let us have a look at it thank you thank you very much thank you chairman thank you councillor Eddington so councillor Graham Cone would you like to ask your question it's an answer on the order councillor Dr Timmy Hawkins would you like to respond to councillor Graham Cone's question pleasure chairman I think we do fully understand that it can be difficult to entangle the various legislative processes to do with the wastewater treatment plans move and I think there was a bit of that with the public question earlier on it is important for us to differentiate between the functions of the two councils firstly as local plan authorities in preparing the local plan and the area action plan and secondly the role of Cambridge city council as a landowner and developer and a partner in the heating with island water so these council functions are exercised separately now the move of the wastewater treatment plan obviously will enable the councils as local planning authorities to realise their long held ambitions to develop the current site as part of North East Cambridge which is a safeguarded policy SS4 of the current and adopted local plan 2018 however the decision to move the wastewater treatment plan was made by Anglia Water in partnership with Cambridge city council in their capacity as a landowner and due to the successful hippie local plan and the AAP are being prepared on the basis that the wastewater treatment plan will be relocated but it is not a requirement of the local plan or the AAP the relocation of the wastewater treatment plan would however unlock a brownfield site that our evidence shows is very sustainable location for development now including the site in the two plans at this stage will ensure that future development in this area is brought forth in a comprehensive and coherent manner and the local development scheme setting out the plan making process for both the local plan and the AAP is clear that the plans will only progress to the latter formal stages when the development consent order for the relocation of the wastewater plan is determined so the Anglia Water issue process is an entirely separate planning process from the local plan and it will be determined under different legislation so it is not a project or a proposal within the scope of the local plan and so it will be inappropriate to include it as part of the local plan proposals and consultation however the relocation of the wastewater treatment plan will be considered in the sustainability appraisal of the local plan as a project being brought forward by another body as part of the assessment of the cumulative impact of the local plan and of course in relation to the green belt issue we understand that Anglia Water will be making a case for very special circumstances to locate the new wastewater treatment plan within the green belt thank you chairman Thank you councillor dr Timi Hawkins councillor Graham Coed Do you wish to have a supplementary question? Yes I would chairman first of all I would like to thank the lead member for her answer my supplementary question essentially is that that the council does accept that the only reason the water treatment plan is moving is because of the hithbid which the lead member have alluded to that there is no operational need for Anglia Water to move the water treatment plan and we could pull out of the hithbid if we wanted to Can I just clarify that if I may chair we were not part of the hithbid it was Cambridge City council and Anglia Water in their respective capacity as the land owners so I'm afraid that there's nothing that we can do to pull out of the hithbid sorry So councillor dr Timi Hawkins thank you for that response Thank you So moving on to the third question then councillor dr Richard Williams would you like to ask a question? Thank you very much chair, my question is as on the agenda Thank you very much I invite councillor dr Timi Hawkins to respond Thank you chairman in answer to your question in 2019 five requests we received five requests and made one in tp order in 2020 there were 33 requests four were made two are under construction construction sorry consideration and we are waiting information on two more and in 2021 so far we've had 12 requests and five are in advanced stages of being made Thank you chair Thank you councillor Hawkins could you just clarify you said there were in 2000 five requests and how many made 2019 five requests and one made Thank you councillor dr Richard Williams would you like to ask a supplementary question? Yes, thank you very much to the lead cabinet member for those numbers the 2020 numbers are a little worrying but I wanted to make it as a follow-up one could we have an assurance that the council will communicate clearly with people who make tree application tree protection order and what the outcome of that is I think a number of people I know have made applications and they've heard nothing else about it so they don't know whether it was accepted or rejected so I think if we could communicate better that would be fine and the second question is just to go back to something I made a pointer I made a few months ago I remember confident that we have the resource capacity in place to allow the trees team to deal with all of these applications quickly and efficiently and particularly actually to conduct site visits and make sure that the protection orders that are made are properly assessed although the applications that are made are properly assessed thank you councillor dr Timmy Hawkins do you want to respond? Yes, thank you chairman I take your message councillor Richard Williams in terms of communications I will check with the trees team and see how that gets referred back communications back to those who make requests is being done and improve it as necessary on the issue of resource, yes we have put in an additional person resource to deal with administration of tree applications which means that tree officers themselves have increased capacity to deal with the actual tree issues so I am confident that we have enough resource dealing with trees in the planning service thank you chair Thank you councillor dr Timmy Hawkins hey so we can now move on to the questions received after the deadline of seven clear days notice so we have the exciting prospect of Councillor Rebecca Dawson delving into the box of questions it's like Christmas our legal advisor will check that the question is acceptable to the council so the question is I don't know who it's from sorry do we need to know who it's from councillor Heather Williams thank you is is the leader aware and or has the leader or any member of the cabinet met with any developers about proposals for major developments that have not been shared with all members of this council as was the case with the 25,000 house proposal by FACOM Peter would you like to respond to that so the one meeting that happened with FACOM was with the director of planning in attendance leader could you just sorry with the director of planning in attendance and that was days as you know as you've been told days before they went public with their scheme and the answer to the rest of your question is no sorry councillor Williams did you just do listening through finished leader raised a point of order point of order point of order under 1217a a direct or an answer the answer question was about yes just wait a moment will I check 12a 12 what was the point of order 12.17a to spare with me you mean 12.7 sorry 7a direct or answer point that you're asking point is that the question that I have asked is about other proposals and yet the leader is referring to past events in relation to the example that was given but that is not the question and therefore she's not constituting the direct or an answer sorry councillor Williams my impression is that the leader was answering the question that I read out she had undertaken to answer the question and it's not my impression that she was avoiding the issue she was answering the question that you asked sorry so councillor Williams you interrupted me before I finished answering but I did have to pick up on your your slightly veiled accusation about meetings with Pakeham so the answer is no thank you did you have a supplementary? thank you so yes I did I'm pleased to hear that chair I haven't been any fervent just for clarity I'd just like to clarify what the leader was saying because I'm aware of a meeting that was a few days before but I'm also aware of a meeting that the leader had two months before the Pakeham proposals became live and hence the reason I believe it's the 25th September 27th September something along there so you know that's the reason why the question's been asked make sure there's nothing else that I'm not aware of and if there isn't then that's good news chair thank you councillor leader would you like to respond? I don't think there was a question the question was had you were you aware of that? I answered that but there wasn't a supplementary question was there? I tried to clarify the September date because I was clarifying your response did you say you only met them a few days before the announcement or did you meet them in the September as well? Will you just bear with me? The supplementary question was that people have been aware of a meeting two months before so around about the 25th 27th September how would you like to respond to that? The only meeting I've had with Pakeham was with Stephen Kelly Fair enough Point of information chair I have I have a email from Bridget Smith saying to the contrary Perhaps you would be so kind as to send that email to councillor Bridget Smith and she can send you a written reply if there's some different reply I'm happy to accept that chair Next question then This is the one that was listed on the agenda should we have time to take it so this is received from councillor Dr Ian Sollum Did you want to ask your question or are you happy I read it or? Well it's written on the order paper Okay of course yes Thank you It's written on the order paper As written Thank you Yes Can anybody remind me where it is in the order paper? 15D 15D Thank you very much Right so anybody wish to comment on that? Councillor John Williams Thank you chair The £20 universal credit uplift announces part of the government's Covid response will come to an end on the 6th of October returning UC payments to pre-Covid levels Before this happens we have already through our discretionary housing payments and hardship support funds helped over 200 residents with the total financial assistance awarded so far in 2021 exceeding £107,000 Going forward the removal of the uplift can only make the situation worse Those residents who now or in future find it difficult to pay their bills including council tax and rent we would ask that they contact us as soon as possible to discuss the support options available for their circumstances We offer a range of support options for those struggling financially including discretionary housing payments which provide financial support towards housing costs the council tax hardship fund which aims to provide support to those who are struggling financially as a result of Covid support and advice from our welfare and money maximisation officer and signposting to external support and advice agencies such as citizens advice which we financially support to give advice to our residents Details of how to access this help can be found on our website Early contact is keen to preventing debt problems from escalating so residents that may be experiencing difficulty should make contact with us as soon as possible Thank you, Councilor John Williams I believe Councilor Bill Handie is about to No, it's a supplementary Can I have my supplementary please? Oh, sorry Oh Thank you for responding to Councillor Ian Solomon Supplementary, sorry Sorry Councillor Dr Ian Solomon Thank you chair So, through you thank you to the league member for that answer Obviously over the last 18 months the community has been saying the other fantastically the lead response on the ground looking after the vulnerable people in their communities With this cut we're going to see an impact on our communities again I wonder if we could just make sure that that information that you just shared is distributed to those groups that are still very active in our communities to make sure that it's maximised that that information has got for the people that need to know Thank you, Councilor Dr John Williams Thank you chair Yes, absolutely The council has a weekly update to all South Cams, Cones, community groups and parish councils and any helpful information will be inserted in the next edition which should be going out next Thursday and similarly a parish evil item which will be issued before the end of the month and we'll make sure that it goes in that way Thank you Thank you Did Councilor Brian Mills wish to ask a question? No, I just wanted to point out that in the news today the lifting of evictions the ban on evictions has come into place Chair, well this isn't a debate I apologise Apologise Apologise I was thrown because I was understood that Councilor Brian Mills my mistake we've come very close to the end of this in time we'll move on to motions that's on pages 4 and 5 of the agenda lead sheets you're reminded that a maximum period of 30 minutes is allowed for each motion to be moved seconded and debated including dealing with any amendments at the expiry of the 30 minute period debate will cease immediately and the mover of the original motion or if the original motion has been amended the mover of that amendment now forming the substantive motion will have the right of reply before the motion or amendment is put to the vote So moving on Standing in the name of Councilor Dr Ian Sollam Councilor Sollam Sorry, Councilor Dr Ian Sollam I invite you to speak Thank you chair Council, our area is facing water crisis it's invisible to many we haven't had the need for any water restrictions and actually the long term average annual rainfall has been fairly constant but look more closely and the evidence is there in the reduction of flows in our spring-fed chalk streams in the more frequent drying out of local wetlands and in the loss of the rare and precious habitats and species that those changes bring about Now we know that the problem is over abstraction of the chalk aquifer Estimates suggest that abstraction reduces the cam, for example to about half its natural flow but abstraction has long been the main sort of public water supplies in our area so if we're going to tackle this we're going to have to tackle that dependency and put into action plans to restore and enhance those habitats effective Now I would dearly love that this was something entirely within the control of us as a district council and we can have some impact driving new development to incorporate rain water harvesting and recycling of grey water but we live in a complex world of water resource management the environment agency and off-watt Cambridge water and Anglian water and other water companies and their collaboration in organisations like water resources east we should be somewhat relieved that many if not all of those organisations recognise the problems that we face they have plans to reduce water use through metering and dealing with leaks in the system and they are developing plans to improve water catchment management and invest in new supply infrastructure but sadly they're not moving fast the crisis is with us now and in such a complex system of resource planning and management it's only national government that can take the lead in driving the change that needs to happen they control the stick of regulation and they can also provide the carrot of supporting that upfront investment that the water companies are going to have to make our area should not have to wait 15 years or possibly more for new supply infrastructure and there are certainly new species and habitats that simply can't wait that long they will no longer be with us I know that under the Liberal Democrats this council will do all that is within its power to do to protect those precious habitats but we need the government to step up and so I urge all members to back this motion thank you do you have a seconder councillor councillor Pippa Haley thank you councillor Haley can you confirm and whether you wish to speak now or reserve your right I can confirm that chair and I'll reserve my right speaker at the end thank you thank you very much so the motion is open for debate and we have firstly councillor Deborah Roberts thank you chairman through you chairman well it is good to at last see the Liberal Democrats supporting the local MP who has been trying extremely hard and they've been very vocal about it in his concerns about the chalk streams in South Cambridge and the dire situation that they are facing however for the old bots like me who've been on this council for over 30 years this problem is nothing new that we've always had concerns the fact is that the water comes in it goes up the mountains of Lancashire and it drops most of its rain there so by the time it gets to East Anglia there's not all that much left and that's always been the case and it was always one of the reasons that old members of this council used to be very concerned about development because we always knew that mass development of South Cambridgeshire was not able to be sustained because there would not be water and you may do dances to the rain gods but you won't make it happen and I think it's quite hypocritical for a group a Liberal Democrat group who calls itself green to its bottom of its agenda actually the answer is in your hands you don't have to develop the sort of numbers that you are doing that you develop the greater will this problem be your answer is quite simple stop putting concrete down you're estimating 49,000 houses in the next 20 years you don't have to build anything near that you are going above and beyond what you are charged by the Government to do how hypocritical of you to come here and talking about we have to do something now it's so critical the answer is in your hands stop going along with the development of the sort of numbers that you are talking about if you bring water in you're bringing in from other areas what's going to happen to those other areas could I just remind you to speak through the chair and to wind up through the chair it's hypocritical you're just virtue signalling you've got elections coming up in there I'm sure we'll read this all over but the answer is actually in the Liberal Democrats hands chairman stop going along with this over development it's just a nonsense and you know people can see through what you're up to thank you councillor Roberts we have other speakers councillor Heather Williams thank you chair so I think I'm hopefully not going to surprise councillor solemn in that I will support this because on environmental issues we've always tried to seek cross party agreement however you know I felt that the words councillor solemn made were everything that was to chest a minimum growth scenario in the housing numbers so I think we spoke very well about the need and everything else that we have here and I do think there is merit in what councillor Roberts is saying the more we build the bigger problem this is going to be that's the reality the numbers for seeing in the next local plan chair could mean I think it's around 1.4 billion litres of water a year that's that's additional to where we are now and on the way up there so we can't ignore that and we do have to reflect that in what we're doing in the papers that were submitted and we've all seen it does say that we're going above and beyond as a council in that local plan proposal so I think I would stress that if the administration as councillor solemn has said really want to do all they can that they really look at the issue of those numbers again supportive of the motion but I think we do have to look at our own and reflect on our own actions as well thank you chair thank you councillor Heather Williams councillor Dr Richard Williams thank you very much chair look I mean if you're going to build this many houses yes we've got a problem yes we need to get some water so okay but the simple solution is don't build 12,000 houses more or don't propose to build 12,000 houses more than the standard method says that you have to now that was greeted with much hilarity by some members opposite earlier but you know read the psych Oxfordshire read the inspectors report the psych Oxfordshire local plan you were going to have to prove to the inspector that exceptional circumstances apply to depart from the standard method councillor Dr Richard Williams remind me if you just speak to the chair the council through you chair the council will have to make the case to the inspector that exceptional circumstances apply to justify departing from the standard method the council will have to make the case that environmental factors do not impose a constraint on development greenbelt is another one actually these are in the NPPA you are going to have to make the case so I know the argument is we've got this document which is called an objective that needs assessment and it says we must do this it is not as straightforward as that you have to make the case and if that is the case why are we here? why do we just not contract out what's in our local plan to some planning some planning consultants because if it really is the case as the council leadership would have us believe that we simply have no choice because we have this document so no and we are not accountable to the south we therefore have no choice what are we doing here why do we bother voting on a local plan there is no point it is because that is not the case they supply us with evidence we as a council have to take the judgment and we could take a judgment that water as we all know as the evidence before us from November tells us that to accommodate the medium level growth we need regional level solutions to accommodate the minimum growth the government number we do not that is in your own report so yes if you are going to build we need to do something but there is a simple solution and it is in your hands don't build 1000 houses more than you need to thank you councillor Nick Wright thank you chairman and I would propose an amendment but I know I am going to lose it so I am not going to take up more time but really this letter is going to the wrong person it ought to go to the lead member on planning your lead member on planning and our director of planning because you have so much influence on water for all the reasons that you have already heard too many houses in the new local plan too much stress on the water supplies all that and you know you have your own protection in our advisory group councillor Pippa Haley's advisory group which she is the lead member on that could be looking at protecting water in this district it is in your own hands you are in control of this council you have to make the developers squeak when they are building by putting conditions on that will protect our water supplies and it is no good just saying ringing your hands all the time and saying well it is the government's fault you are in control of the development that is happening here thank you chairman thank you councillor Wright councillor Nigel Cafficard thank you yes I support this motion for a variety of reasons the chalksbeams are on the and actually it affects the water because the chalk network is actually very widely chalksbeams is very widely spread out south from the west centre part of the district and they are all affected and yes they will recover there is scope for recovery there is some grounds of optimism but they will only recover with the right approach and they reached a point actually where if they drown completely they won't recover so in that sort of critical stage in the moment and I in terms of development my understanding of the local plan is to some extent it is conditional if you read what the authors have said it is said very clearly that all these numbers all these proposals, all these suggested and at the moment nothing has been adopted it is all a question of debate and consultation is dependent upon the water issue actually being resolved if it is not resolved then we will have to actually have another debate on this subject so there is a lot of conditionality here but at least this is actually focusing attention on one of the sailing issues one of the other things has been touched on is the question of abstraction a lot of the abstraction licenses I think we need to review the whole thing many of them especially of agriculture I know not a lot of the local farmers the original abstraction licenses were and many were unlimited and irrevocable the modern ones are not but I think we need to look at this whole question of the abstraction licenses who is getting them whether they can be reviewed what impact they have because we need to take their all into account so this is a very broadly phase issue in fact and in addition to that we need to look at the chalk actresses many of them have not been properly mapped actually we don't really understand fully how they work, how they relate to one another and precisely what impact and how they were finished there's a lot of issues but at least this is a significant way forward so I'm happy to to support it Thank you councillor Cathcart councillor Sue Ellington Thank you madam chairman Well I've heard more this afternoon that go for not me girls it's one of them other agencies what we've got to do it or it's got to be the government than I've ever heard in my life before the fact remains that we start this administration starts the process of suggesting that we need all these houses and then blames everybody else for not falling into line and providing the equipment or the resources with which to make it happen and 1.4 billion litres I'm far more worried about when you've got it what you're going to do with it because it will all have to be processed at up and strove mostly sewage works and then find its way into the river which will have to be pumped into the river because up and strove is considerably lower than the river and my village is in the middle of that so I am very concerned about the number of houses that are being suggested for the new plan and I'm even more concerned about where the water will go Thank you, Councillor Angton answer to me Hawkins Would you pause a moment Councillor Nick Wright wants to come back carry on That's very kind of you Chairman I really appreciate that I was just wanting to make the point it is strange because in the winter we spend the winter months worrying about flooding and the southern months having lack of water so it is a very seasonal motion which I'm sure we can all see at this point Councillor Cathcart is right Do please keep your point short because you're coming back a second time That's very kind Councillor Cathcart is right to say the farmers do have abstraction rights that is severely restricted and just to get my own back on Councillor Cathcart I should like to say the breweries should have the same restrictions Thank you Councillor Wright Councillor Dr Timmy Hawkins Would you like to respond or have your comment Thank you very much Chairman It was enlightening to hear what Councillor Roberts had to say about the longevity of this issue with water and with chalk streams It's not a new problem I hear Councillor Wright Thank you very much The letter can come to me but I don't have the power You should know that because you've been in this position before and in fact Chair I would like to ask him what he did when he was in position to help with the water issue I'd love to hear his answer Please do be interrupt Thank you Thank you Inteructions As for the emphasis on housing numbers I cannot believe that's where you were going to go But then again Councillor Wright you were here as was Councillor Roberts when the current apelwchwp pan was created you know what the numbers are and you know how this process works What's happened is we're rolling what was put in that plan into the new look the numbers are there You know So you are but your signal through your chair to Councillor Roberts So the issue here is we are not the water authority What we're asking is that the water authority does something to resolve this problem It's not a planning problem There are other uses of water You've already rightly pointed out You've got the breweries, you've got the agriculture you've got the leisure, you've got businesses commercial building There's a lot of users of water So to try and make out that it's only house building that's causing the problem I think, come on Let's be real here You ought to and we are trying to actually explain to residents how things work The fact that this is you've heard a lot more here is because you didn't explain to them how it works when you are in a position to do so So, I think what I will say is this We are looking at ways of obviously making sure that we don't we take into account what the issue is, how it can be resolved work with partners who can provide the resource and infrastructure we need and that's what this is doing It's a question earlier on about what we want from the Yorkscar mark and one of the things that we are asking the government to do as part of the Yorkscar mark project is to actually resolve this water issue because they will not be able to actually implement their proposal or their proposed plans in this area if that is not resolved so we're tying that into it and I just want to say lastly please Come on, let's be real here folks Let's stop missing formula residents We're not doing them Thank you chair I have no other request to speak so I am going to say something before we come to the seconder and that is that I'm aware that people have been concerned about the water sufficiency in the Cam Valley for many years long before our local MP got hold of it and the point is in my view it is the government that is setting the housing numbers that we are required to comply with and that is why it is appropriate to be writing to the government in the letter the government gave a requirement to us to deliver housing and it is they who need to know that if that housing is deliverable or not on the basis of the water supply the local plan is written as it is so in my view it is appropriate that the leader and chief executive write to the secretary of state for the environment, food and rural affairs and the secretary of state for housing, communities and local government by letting the issues rather than anybody else Thank you Thank you chair and through you obviously I am in support of this motion being presented by cancer doctor Ian Sollam I thank cancer Nick Wright for tagging me in this as the chair of the climate change and environment committee and I would like to say yes so before this became something that is promoted by our local MP in July 19 virtue signalling from the very beginning we declared a climate and ecological emergency 90% of local councils have declared a climate emergency 12% of local councils have declared an ecological emergency and we are very proud to be one of the first to do that but we didn't just declare it, we said what will we do with it in February 21 we adopted our doubling nature strategy what does it say in our doubling nature strategy there is a section on water there is a section on chalk streams we were already identifying the threats and saying in our new local plan because this one doesn't in our new local plan all of our strategies were saying we oblige offices in our new local plan we are shaping it to say make sure you address these issues so the evidence commissioned was this integrated water management strategy seasonal no-couch learning right because it's integrated it deals with drought, it deals with flooding it deals with what comes in, what goes out because it's an integrated water management study so this isn't seasonal and it's groundbreaking because very few councils have done this kind of study for their local plans this is the first that is using the results of this to say it will be a constraint to meeting housing need now what the motion says is what we have to do to resolve it because there are many reasons for over abstraction as councillor Dr Tumie Hawkins has said but what I want to focus on are some of these questions about what are we doing so we're pointing fingers at government what are we doing I just would love it if everybody would read the most amazing document which is the preferred option that has gone out for consultation again this is groundbreaking I do think it's groundbreaking because what it's saying is it's asking a question it's saying will you support a green infrastructure standard on developers which is not only about stringent water efficiency use down to 80 litres but it is also saying that developers have to ensure that they revitalise the chalk stream or the revitalisation of the chalk stream network and that they have to prove that they are not damaging that it creates and asks everybody in the community to answer shall we have a river corridor policy in the local plan never before come and its tributaries a river corridor policy that developers have to respect would you like to draw your points to approach so I would just say not only support this motion but also look at that consultation because the local plan is going into things it's never gone before because we do do what we talk about very much so back to you councillor solemn as the proposer of the motion thank you chair and thank you for some really excellent contributions and I particularly would like to thank Nigel for highlighting the conditional nature of the numbers in the local plan or in proposals for the local plan I should say there seems to be a lot of anger in the chamber about the proposed numbers but it is quite clear in that proposal that we would pull back or stagger the building out of those proposals if this water issue isn't dealt with so if that's what the opposition benches want to see then maybe they shouldn't support this motion which wants to deal with the crisis we face now faster because it's not about the numbers that are being built out in the future it's about what's happening right now now councillor Chamberlain knows where I grew up it's not actually very far from where the pipeline crosses from the Eland Valley Dam on its way through to Birmingham that was an investment that the Victorians made to solve a public health crisis in Birmingham we need supply infrastructure along with all the water cadmant management and the great things that councillor Haylings has talked about in our proposals and referenced to what water companies can do and what developers can do to help improve children's dreams but we do need that supply infrastructure to solve the environmental crisis the ecological crisis that our children's dreams are facing in that country so I do urge everyone to back the motion and I do hope that everyone does thank you very much so let's go to a vote then so if people would like to support the recommender of the motion 16a in the name of Dr Ian Sollum please press the blue button to say you're there then press green if you wish to vote against press red and if you wish to have stain press yellow has everybody voted yep I voted I voted this time okay so we've got 27 people voted one person as a question there are 28 people in the room I believe but that's in the 27 but that's included in the 27 there are only 27 out of the 28 people in the room at press the blue button look I mean vote this room if you want to just don't build so many houses voting in this so can you are you either against or not voting chair choosing not to vote councillor Dr Richard Williams would you like it to be noted that you are choosing not to vote minister if you wish chair otherwise that motion is carried thank you what a point of the motion thank you very much so that motion is carried I am 16b on the agenda standing in the name of councillor Dr Richard Williams would you like to speak thank you very much chair thank you councillor Amanda why I feel structure of contribution let's hope that we get a bit more constructive later okay so last time in this council we passed the motion and that motion said very boldly that this council believes planning works best when local communities are empowered to shape their local areas now I voted for that because I happen to believe it's true and I think every other member of the council voted for it as well now I think we all know that that motion was directed at the government it was about the planning reforms but you know we're not powerless here in this council if we really believe that planning works best when local communities are empowered to shape their local areas we can do something about it and one thing we can do is agree my motion and we can empower our parish councils to have the ability to more directly shape planning in their local areas because parish councils are our communities parish councils are close to our communities and they're embedded in our local communities any member of the community in our area because I think we're entirely parish can turn up to their parish council on a Wednesday Tuesday Monday whenever in their village and they can make their view known on a planning application and if they can persuade their parish council that a planning application ought to be determined by democratically elected councillors in public a parish council agrees then I think the parish council should have the right to require that planning application to be considered in public by elected councillors similarly if a parish council wishes to require the planning committee to consider an application when it disagrees with the officer's recommendations again they should have the power to do it we are fortunate in South Cambridgeshire that we live in a parish area as I have said and the parish system in my view is an amazing system because it brings local government right down to the lowest level right into the heart of communities and at a very very accessible level so if we really mean it that we believe planning works best let's do what we can to empower those local communities because there is no better way to do that than to give parish councils the power they need now we have discussed this issue before we were told I think that the current scheme of delegation was temporary I think that was back in May 2020 that we were told there would be a review but here we are 18 months later there is no change we still have a system where no democratically elected councillor ultimately has the power to decide whether a planning application goes to committee or not and I think that is wrong and as I say if we believe in empowering local communities if it wasn't just a PR stunt as part of a Lib Dem plan to show up the government which I'm sure it wasn't I wouldn't believe that with my colleagues being it then we should support this motion and I will say one final thing because I think I may have had a foretaste of some of the arguments that are going to be made against this because there was some hilarity in the break earlier about 24-hour council planning committee meetings if that's your argument have the courage to go to parish councils and say we don't trust you we don't think you're sensible enough we think you'll make silly decisions okay because if that's really the argument and if you don't work and parish councils can't be trusted go and tell them that you don't trust them so I very much hope that that's not the case and I very much hope the council will support this motion thank you very much Councilor Dr Richard Williams do you have a seconder? Councilor Pever Williams do you wish to speak now or do you wish to reserve your right? I think I'm going to speak now please chair thank you do go ahead so when this this first come in and I think there are a few of us that sat on that day in this chamber a planning committee where we had a report given to us literally almost as we were coming in and it was a really really difficult day for many of us regardless of political lines planning is a statutory function of council on that planning committee but it was very very difficult and it was suggested at the time that we would it was a narrow vote five votes to four with one abstention I believe from the top of my head and it was so it was very close and we were reassured that this would be reviewed and that parish councils would be consulted with every parish council would be consulted so then that came to full council in May 2020 and yet we sit here now in September 2021 we have a scheme of delegation which we have never consulted on with parish councils or members of the public do you know what you may be right parish councils may say no we don't want to have this ability no we can't be trusted although I do think they can be but have the confidence of your convictions to actually take it to them and consult but we've had nothing we've done something fundamental change and I mean when we took that planning committee decision actually letter had gone out the previous day I think saying that the chairman would have a veto and then in the meeting so all the parish council got told we're going to have a veto then in the meeting we got told no we can't have a veto so they'd all been misinformed before then not intentionally I must stress there but was a consequence of the situation we found ourselves in but there is no excuse now to carry on doing this having not consulted at all it's mind blowing as to why people would think that's acceptable so I believe that this should be brought in now and if you want to go back the parish council is not being allowed then take it to them put it to them at least try at least try all this and give a bit of trust back because we've got reports saying there's a lack of trust it's no wonder really thank you chair thank you councillor Heather Williams councillor Deborah Roberts thank you chairman and through you chairman we do have to stand up for the things that we've said and there's just been said by councillor Heather Williams we did indicate in writing to the parish councils that we would be actually checking out what they felt about this we would be going to them having a proper consultation there is really now no excuse that we don't do that and we if anybody's going to have trust in this council it won't be by saying no to this if you don't trust them tell them so as has already been said but we're not asking that it be everybody everybody whose house is on the applications that we have been very specific we are wanting it to be a right of the elected body for the villages they are elected in exactly the same way as we are they are chosen in exactly the same manner as we are by the people for what we and they can do for them and we cannot simply put words across about oh when local communities are empowered unless you actually stand that up it's just more virtue signalling it's just playing a record that you just think will keep working on people and it's now time that we as a council actually stood up and gave the parish councils an opportunity and as has been said some will say yes and some will maybe say no but certainly the ones that I serve have many at time in the last 18 months been really quite angered by the fact that their local knowledge their local interests their local residents are not getting the opportunity of having their cases heard by elected representatives that instead it is being done basically in closed sessions by people who are not elected and therefore quite rightly they aren't answerable but we are all answerable and so come on let's get grasp the nettle here and do that consultation now and find out what our parish council say I'm not saying that we say yes or no to this now what I'm saying is that we go ahead with that promise that was made in writing to them it was in writing they were told that we realised that there were problems and concerns of trust and that consultation exercise would you like to wind up please thank you chairman thank you chairman thank you very much Councillor Cathcart it has come up before I'm not convinced that we put in our parish council yes if you want but also to be under pressure from developers I'm approaching time to time by developers who say can you use your influence to have this brought to committee and I know that parish councils have the same pressure brought on them because many developers have a better chance through committee and by the offices so I'm not sure you're convinced but I'll be very careful here in addition to this emotion there's no mention about planning reasons if you want something to be brought from our planning committee you should actually have planning reasons the idea of unimpeded access I find that a bit of a problem I'm also concerned that the moment the planning committee seems to have its resources about right I concentrate on major items because of important ones if you're not very careful you'll find planning committee will be clawed up with numerous applications having in the past 30 or 40 applications of the city maps often very small applications for one reason or another there are resource implications about getting that with none resource applications about getting it heard it could be a delay because of that there are applications there and I think the idea that parish councils request should automatically go to committee I think actually you'll have to be quite careful there so I have great reluctance in supporting this particular motion unless it can be clearly demonstrated to be everyone's interest parish councils and residents and I think that evidence is rather thing on the ground at the moment Point of information Chairman My recall as a member of the planning committee is that it actually states very clearly on the applications when they go to the parishes that they are required to put in material reasons for it being requested it's not a willy nilly everything it actually clearly states that Thank you Councillor Deborah Roberts has clarified the incorrect information that she felt was before the council Thank you Right So next speaker is Councillor Brian Mills Thank you chair Councillor Catterpart has expressed many of the reservations Councillor Brian Mills Could you just put your microphone a little bit closer please Closer is your lecture So what I was saying that the council of Catterpart has already expressed many of the reservations that I have I'm a firm believer in subsidiarity of taking decisions of the lowest possible level but as a member of the parish council in Saarston and as an attendee and member of the planning committee this week I'm very familiar with the parish council's process of evaluating planning applications You've just mentioned material considerations many of the issues that we have raised in planning matters are not material considerations at all and I remember being on the planning committee when a planning application for an extension of a four foot to a fence was brought to the planning committee and I fear that such trivial issues will come along and clog our planning system that is already stretched and I can't support this motion Thank you Councillor Sue Ellington Excuse me, can I just Before you start Councillor Sue Ellington Could I just request that members do other members the courtesy of not muttering while they are about to do their own Members are about to speak Thank you Thank you I have to say that one of the reasons that my parish clerk came to make her request this afternoon to ask a question was because there is extreme frustration within the parish council that they do debate planning applications they do identify material issues they do submit those within the time frame which can be quite short and quite difficult at times not that it makes it indifferent to get a result but then we'll understand that point and they were so frustrated they asked her to come and try and gee up the planning committee and I think again as Councillor Williams said we are undervaluing our parish council we are saying oh you don't really understand the issues well if they send in a concern that is non-material we write back to them and say it's non-material sorry mate, you're going to get the officers to make the decision if it's a material consideration then we ought to be considering it out of respect for our parish council Thank you Thank you councillor, Dr Timmy Hawkins Thank you chair Actually I wanted to thank councillor Dr Richard Williams for bringing this motion because actually does give us an opportunity to clarify issues with how we how we engage with parish councils and the importance we put their input into the planning process but I want to start from what is the lawful position for how PCs actually are by law enables to participate and it is found in section 25 of the town and country planning development planning process of order of 2015 and what that says effectively is that we as plan authority will notify parish councils of applications in their area and they can then make representation as statutory consultees but they cannot obviously unduly influence planning committee agenda or the application to determine it either but their input is important and we cannot determine it without hearing from them so in some ways the requirement or the ask of giving them unimpeded power suggests that they will have an influence on the agenda and determine the agenda effectively which is wrong, it does also mean that we will potentially be operating on lawfully and we are going to do that and I must remind us all that it was in 2016 that the previous Conservative administration actually took away the automatic referral issue and introduced the referral by setting out material reasons for doing so but obviously that process didn't work because when we then came into power we actually then looked at the issue and we did revise the way in which it works and as far as I know parish councils are able to refer applications with reasons and it gets looked at in a proper way and they get told if it goes or if it doesn't and if it doesn't why not so we engage with them the other thing we've done is actually we have area teams, we split into area teams and we actually have quarterly meetings with parishes and planning area teams and the whole point of this is so that they can engage with the for example with the officers who deal with the applications and they've got a relationship that they can have if they want to with the area team leaders that is fundamental to providing them with assistance, with help if they have any issues they go to the team leader and they try and resolve it there what that means is they can put in better requests that come through and perhaps they can't resolve at that level I mean we had one meeting two days ago we're expecting four team parishes four turned up so we'd like to work with them if they want to work with us okay thank you very much councillor Dr Tim Hawkins councillor Nick Wright thank you and just to reflect on councillor it's the last point that just shows how this administration has lost confidence in the parish councils with making those sort of comments is you know it just shows where you are with this it is it is over the years that I've been a councillor we have seen less and less and less going to the planning committee admittedly when I started in 2004 80% of decisions were determined by officers all the rest went to the planning committee now we're at about 99 point something percent of decisions being determined by planning officers now there in spite of what councillor Mills has said there are no better than councillors doing it because so many of the interpretations of planning policy are subjective and it's down to what you see as a person as a parish councillor or as a councillor and there's plenty of times I've sat in here at the planning committee and listened to councillors talking about non-material objections among everything else so let's not lose faith in the people who put an immense amount of work for no no no other reason than they want to be part of supporting their communities and shaping the future of their communities let's not rubbish that let's give them all the support we can that is part of part of supporting our communities is so important and I would really ask people to support this motion to show some support for our parish councillors and the very impressive work they do thank you Jen thank you councillor Wright councillor Ruth Bettson thank you chair I'm afraid I'm going to have to address my comments to your deputy because I can't see you contrary to other smaller parishes in South Cambridgeshire, Campbell by Ward is a town the town council has 19 councillors it is quite large compared to other parishes we have a planning committee that meets on a regular basis we have a wealth of experience within the committee within the town council mainly because of the amount of development in Campbell as you know Campbell is a new town and it continues to develop but as I think I mentioned in the previous council meeting the town council has been sidelined it has been disregarded and not involved and I'm very concerned about this because Campbell needs to be a unit cohesif town not separate pieces and I'm very sorry that the Councillor Bridget Smith the leader of this administration has left because I did mention this before that the chairman of Campbell Town Council feels so strongly on this matter that he wrote a letter to her so I would urge everybody to vote for this motion we cannot have people deciding on the future of our communities and our wards in isolation without consulting the people who have to live there on a day to day basis our communities our town councils our parish councils they need to be involved thank you Councillor Betts on mindful of the time thank you we just make our contributions brief Councillor Pippa Haleyings followed by Councillor John Bachelor and Councillor Grenville Chamberlain and we've got five minutes left so I'll give you one minute each please thank you very much Councillor Richard Williams referenced my motion at last council and it was unanimously adopted and it was directed against the planning reforms which do threaten to strip away any local voice by local authorities or local communities on individual applications but it wasn't just a Lib Dem response that was I am now the lead voice on the LGA and that was a cross party response to government in its consultation on those planning reforms now anybody would know me as chair of the planning committee that I am seriously committed to I also have a very large ward we have a planning committee I assist regularly I am constant contact with them they do an amazing job they do a fantastic job and whenever we do we make sure that we as all of you have the ability to ask the scheme of delegation to call in an application and we use that not unimpeded but according to the material planning reasons and that's the scheme of development but we did have a planning review and we know that the results of that planning review said that the scheme of delegation as of the moment it does say that we need to keep it under review and the planning committee development group at the moment you've just had an email from the officer in charge what we've asked is before we go to parish councils that we do a comparative study of all councils around the country and what they do with schemes of delegation and what they do in terms of planning performance as well which is another question on the agenda today so how you balance that bring that to our planning committee development group and then we structure the consultation with communities that we have promised thank you very much thank you the next speaker is councillor John Bachelor thank you very much just to have a bit of reality in this debate we had a peer review last year that had a very extensive consultation with parish councils that has now developed with the planning development group but at this time I was chair of the planning committee and we immediately took up the peer reviews initial recommendations for the delegations we've changed the matter so that any item which is requested to go to committee and is delegated there's a full report that goes directly to the parish council to explain why the request has not been met that report is a public document and is on the website for anyone to see there's another protocol where the officer may conclude that he actually agrees largely with the parish council's position that the delts consult with the parish council to see if they are prepared to withdraw their request for it to go to committee so that is a consultation again and just in passing my experience of delegation numbers is that we deal with something of the order of 200 requests per year to go to it and put that in context the planning committee deals with less than 50 thank you councillor Granville Chamberlain thank you chair I will be brief we've listened and we've heard just how much this council appreciates the input from its parish and town councils we are told repeatedly that this is a listening council so all I say gentlemen ladies is please listen to the people upon whom we trust thank you chair thank you very much for being at my basic sync right on that case we and the second time has already spoken so I'm going to go sorry I'm going to go back to councillor Dr Richard Williams who proposed the motion thank you very much chair I will also endeavour to be brief thank you all members for their contributions to this debate just a few points the motion we passed said we want to empower local communities we have heard contributions about engaging with local communities but that is not what we said we believed in last time we said we believed in empowering them giving them some power and as I've said I don't think of a better way of doing that than giving power to parish councils unimpeded if that helps some members I'm unimpeded in the sense of not being mediated by an officer not having an officer having the right to veto a parish council request so that was what that word was intended to mean nothing more nothing less I would take concerns about the word unimpeded a bit more seriously if the council hadn't voted against previous motions on this topic which are much more limited so I rather suspect that even if we had a more limited motion like we did a few months ago you would vote against it so I would take that more seriously if we voted in favour of previous motions which were more limited finally on the point of the legal power of course we're talking about the scheme of delegation we're talking about going against whatever legal provisions are cited we're talking about the scheme of delegation both ways we can't say that astadly it's already took away the power but you know it would be illegal to have the power it's about the scheme of delegation and changing the scheme of delegation so that we can't automatically call it and I will end there thank you very much and can I point out to members that it doesn't make it any easier for anybody to hear if you still say the same number of the words but quicker it's easier to say fewer words I'm happy to say it again much more slowly that time limit that we have I would like to go to the vote on this motion so if you wish to support Councillor Richard Williams' motion please press the blue button to register your presence and vote green if you wish to oppose press red and if you wish to have stain press yellow has everybody voted we have lost one member certainly because Councillor Richard Councillor Bridget Smith has left Councillor Wright are you having difficulty I don't think it recorded my vote I didn't see the number move when I voted I think there's just one person whose vote we are missing members could you just be quiet for a moment so that we can work out whose vote has not registered so members thank you for your patience on that the vote is 9 in favour 18 against and so that motion falls thank you so 18, sorry 16C standing in the name of Councillor Jeff Harvey Councillor Harvey could you have some quiet please thank you Councillor Harvey would you like to speak this motion is about heritage and it's about conservation but conservation in its wider sense in relation to that in planning law the laws we have in the moment in part really a response to the excesses of the post war period I suppose and thankfully we now recognise that conserving our heritage assets and their settings is very important but climate change means that everything is now connected to everything else in its cause and its effect and weighing the balance is very important and it must be done in a very rapidly evolving context I don't think this is an exact quote but I think I heard Mary Beard say that history is something that continually rewrites itself and I think we've always we've all perhaps of a Sunday a national trust or English heritage site and notice the odd few bricked up windows in a beautiful red brick facade and we know that that was because of the window tax and far from having erased history I think it's something that actually connects us to the past by enriching the story and how curious it would be to return here in 200 years and to find no imprint on our historic fabric of what is our greatest existential crisis but equally alarming if we had erased everything that had come before us so it's really a question of skillfully weighing a balance this council notes that planning law establishes a principle that no harm to a heritage asset should be weighed against and therefore to some extent balanced by a public benefit and that though the weighing of the balance is the subject of a statutory guidance the assessment of public benefit cannot be blind to climate change nor to the context of the council's declaration of a climate emergency and its adaption of a zero carbon strategy and so to this reason that summarising the substantive part officer reports will show how the balance has been made between public benefit including where that benefit comes from considering the climate and the preservation of the historic fabric and secondly we're appropriate officers will seek advice of the council sustainability officer to add to the views of the conservation officers to contribute to the assessment exercise thank you thank you councillor Harvey I am going to take the step now to just vote that we continue we haven't quite reached the time but just to enable the subsequent debate to go more easily can I just take a vote that we continue members I propose that we continue does everybody accept that by affirmation any against any of objections ok thank you very much so that's that 1805 we voted to continue thank you sorry so we have questions of members who would like to contribute to the debate councillor councillor dr Clare Daunton sorry we need a seconder sorry which is councillor dr Pippa Haley sorry I've given you a doctorate I think I shouldn't have done it's alright do you wish to speak now or do you wish to reserve your right I'll just speak very briefly now I think to the matter which is we've just been talking about planning committee and you know as parish councils know, as communities know, as we know as committee members it's all about balance and the balance that we're looking at with this motion is our cultural assets you know and the conservation of them and how we can adapt to climate change how we can reduce fuel bills and how we can keep people warm in very old fraffby buildings and this balance is you know what we need to do and all that this motion is doing is saying can we provide more information about that balance because at the moment it's the technical consultee that basically it's the conservation and we're not all experts in conservation of historic buildings so that's sort of strongest weight but all we're saying is let's now bring into the balance the fact that they as everybody else want to contribute, want to make their houses warmer drier and reduce the level of emissions so let's just bring that into the balance so that when we come to either office and delegated decisions or when it comes to the planning committee it's there and explicit and we're not predetermining any decision we're just throwing that into that balance given the fact that we are you know where we are in terms of climate change so please support this supremely articulated motion by my Vice-Chair Thank you Councillor Hayling so the next speaker is that's Lord Dr Clay Thank you Tim Historic buildings have always changed with new energy sources and the environment Medieval timber frame buildings had brick fireplaces and chimneys installed in later centuries to allow them to burn coal now we need thank you for the noises off Councillor Roberts now we need to think about replacing fossil fuel history is about change and adaptation of the United States England has the oldest housing stock in Europe and if buildings are not allowed to adapt in an appropriate way for the use of new energy sources and to deal with overheating they will be less valued and hence not maintained and conserved reducing carbon from historic buildings is a major contribution to meeting targets new evidence for heritage counts a research publication by Historic England on behalf of the Historic Environment Forum shows that we can reduce the carbon emissions of historic buildings by over 60% by 2050 through refurbishment and refit research also shows that the sooner the actions are taken the more effectively we can address carbon in buildings it is possible to undertake intervention successfully without compromising historic buildings reports and practice indicate that the historic England approach is constructive conservation the recent Grovena report gives examples of this including one close to home grade one listed buildings in Trinity College were granted permission for a major refit which included the installation of a ground source heat pump and double glazing this is a good example of constructive conservation Thank you councillor Dawson councillor Thank you chair I very much support this motion I think councillor Jeff Harvey has set out very clearly why we need to address this as a matter of some urgency indeed we need to consider the report of the independent commission in Cambridge and Peterborough which is due to give a final report shortly this is one of the four key themes is the emissions from buildings and we cannot address that without also addressing listed buildings and others as English heritives say in their guidance they after all deal with the most sensitive of the listed buildings grade one proving the efficiency of your home whether it's listed in a conservation area or indeed built for 1919 can be done sympathetically and without compromising it's historic character this is as the motion states a matter of balance balance between conservation and the reduction of carbon emissions but I think in the light of the climate emergency that we all agree to and the developing policy picture we have to accept that energy has to be part of that conservation we're not just conserving the history and fabric of the buildings I'm conscious of a report by the Grantham Foundation on climate change now four years ago which assessed the impact of the restrictions on historic buildings on the costs of heating them their assessment is that it costs the owners of those buildings 500 million because of the restrictions on the energy efficiency measures that they were not able to take and of course those costs in the four years since that report was issued have risen already and will be radically rising shortly so it is not just a matter of conservation there are other urgent reasons I mentioned that report but I also have to say that report like the historic England report refers to both listed buildings and buildings in conservation areas and of course we have 80 conservation areas in this district a much larger number of houses affected many of which can be improved without the same sensitivity that applies to listed buildings so it is not a matter for this motion and perhaps to be taken another day we do have to come back to what we do for conservation buildings so to sum up I think that this is an increasingly high priority we all know that climate change is going to be very much discussed over the next few months and we have to take the lead on this we have to not wait until we see developments and then consider how we follow them up and see what other councils are done thank you we have to do what some other councils have done produce our own guidance take our own measures and that is what this motion proposes thank you Councillor Fane on to Councillor Cathart thank you I've got all of the sympathy for this motion and it's been fought precrafted because it does seem to strike this sort of balance I'm in a bit of a dilemma I have to say because I've always sort of felt that we this district is particularly rich in buildings of quality, variety the villagers are studded with small developments, small buildings that actually add charm and character to the built landscape and at the same time I fully support the climate change policy to the council and in many cases there isn't a problem in the sense that because you can have a both ways you can actually carry out adaptations which respect the fabric but I've seen cases where it doesn't respect the fabric so I've made a dilemma about actually which way to go I respect the balance crafted in this and I think it could be a way forward but I'm not sure because seeing examples of as I have of adaptations ostensibly for climate change purposes which actually do irrevocably damage to the fabric it's a difficult one to judge but I respect the motives behind it and I think there is a way forward charter there in fact so anyway that's all I'll say Thank you Thank you Councillor Coughcott Councillor Heather Williams I thought I want to start off by saying about how planning is a statutory function of the council chair so to be clear all politics should be put on the side and something like this so I'm taking it in the same merit as I would if I were sitting on planning committee and I would hope that offices are and I do have confidence that they are already taking into consideration other things and creating that balance perhaps not noting it in the report as we would wish but I would hope that they are already doing this and I will support this this motion I mean I would agree with the remarks that councillor Daunton made so my degree was in law and history and one of the first things I did was a review through the architecture of Wimpole Hall which I'm sure councillor is fully aware of but that in itself has adapted over time bringing electricity into these buildings phones everything else it evolves we do need to preserve their character and of the area but there can be evolution within that so I think it is a balance and I think that's important that we also make clear that offices still nothing we're doing here impedes the offices impartiality in making that balance or committee members because I think it is difficult when we're talking about these planning issues to make sure that we're clear the statutory functions and not the political but I will be supporting it and I have confidence that officers are already doing this actually they're very conscientious and perhaps they can word it slightly more going forward than the members want to see and maybe we'll see some applications that we can commit or perhaps there might be a supplementary planning document at some point to deal with historical buildings or something tangible that we can help to guide officers isn't it? Thank you councillor Williams so councillor Deborah Roberts Thank you and through you chairman I do appreciate and respect councillor Harvey's views on this I know it's heartfelt and I know that he's done his homework on it however I have to say that I'm very pleased that I still burn coal and we still burn wood we have central heating but in our house in the evenings we only have we only use the wood and coal fire we turn the central heating off we don't run it as a hot house all the time however whether you're living in a modern home or an old traditional historical home there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that thanks to the zealots of the eco-warriors it's only a question of time before we're all plunged into the dark and into the cold and even Greta Thunberg will have to get a winter warming woolies underneath her out if she's going to keep warm because what we've got at the moment is never going to get us through bad winters it's just not ready, it's not there it's costing us a fortune and will cost a fortune and it's okay for middle class people like most of the people in this room but actually at the end of the day when the lights go out and people are cold they will not be thankful to the eco-warriors Thank you councillor Roberts councillor Dr Richard Williams Thank you very much chair I will support this motion and I'm very happy to do so I think we all know that building works to historic buildings, the listed buildings it's very important it's very sensitive as well they're often iconic buildings in our villages and they're often a lot of sensitivities around it but I do support this motion and I associated myself with the remarks which have been said about the thought that's clearly gone into it and I would just add one small point though which is I just hope that however this is implemented it's implemented in a way that doesn't delay the planning process because these applications can in any case take some time so I would just like to say I hope it's implemented in a way that doesn't delay unnecessarily, thank you Thank you councillor Dr Timmy Hawkins Thank you chair Just to add very quickly that yes we are aware of some of the difficulties that arise with trying to make historic buildings more energy efficient and we have actually already started work on providing some help to building owners and if you went on the Greater Cambridge planning website and looked at the heritage section you should be able to find some help there it's not complete, it's work in progress and yes I can assure councillor and the Williams that you know we are already preparing help to assist officers in making that judgement and yes it's not been sort of explicitly put in there a minute but obviously it's being considered it did take a bit of twin and throwing to get this this motion in the right or the right wording to make sure that we're not adding burden to officers and we're not trying to slow anything down, it's just to make sure that we are conscious of this again trying to get out there doing credentials one of the references that we put up on the website as I've said is a guide to planning responsible retrofit the link is there and I'd encourage you to share your message and to do it who might find it useful thank you councillor Dr Timmy Hawkins councillor Jeff Harvey would you like to sum up yes thank you chair and thank you for all the contributions firstly councillor Heather Williams I mean I absolutely agree with you that our officers are incredibly conscientious and also incredibly pressure at the moment and I think we did have a meeting with some senior officer and you know most energy efficiency measures that we're talking about here do go through and I suppose whenever you've got a statutory sort of framework it does sort of struggle to address the particularities I know it's inevitable that it throws out some anomalous results and I think that's why something that came out of our meeting which perhaps addresses councillor Cathcart's concerns that we might throw out the baby the bath ward here that a way forward would be to sort of over time develop a sort of file of case histories which kind of would not only show how to deal with those corner cases but also improve on the consistency of outcomes which I think is one of the sort of concerns here and we've concluded well in conversation with councillor Dr Tumi Hawkins that really that wouldn't be helpful at the moment because of the pressure that the planning department is under the last thing we want to do is give them an extra work so I think that sort of idea of developing a sort of case file if you like that people can refer back to to see how various cases have been dealt with in the past that could be a sort of medium term project which I think I hope that will kind of gradually evolve over the months and years anyway so I think that's what I'd like to say but thank you for everyone Thank you very much councillor Harvey so I'm going to take the motion to the vote so everyone in support of the motion presented by councillor Jeff Harvey press the blue button first to register your presence then press if you're in favour the green button if you wish to object red button and if you wish to abstain the yellow button Has everybody voted? Has everybody voted? Yes? Can I just check, has everybody voted? We've got 24 present and Claire Daunton, your microphone is still on Can I just clarify has anybody just chosen not to vote councillor Nick Wright left the room councillor Bridget Smith left the room Thank you Okay so that means 24 in favour, no abstentions no against one abstention so that motion is carried Thank you The last motion, we have 16d is standing in the name of councillor Heather Williams I invite you to speak councillor Williams Chairman, just so you know the vote still appearing for us So yes so this is to bring a report back to full council the idea of us getting some picture because extensions of time have become a big topic of debate for other reasons which I would really like us to try and focus on the fact that we need this information in order to be able to know really how it's performing because to get the figures including the extensions could give us some false security or false sense of security and it would be reflective of the fact that our performance statistics and the response and the things we get from residents seem to be slightly out of order I know that over many different vehicles in many different ways this information has been requested for some years now and we're normally told that it's very difficult to work it out and everything else but we really do need these figures and the reason I just give a short explanation as to why I've included the period as well is that we're told of the impacts of COVID but we can't measure those impacts or really know if that is the impact although I'm sure it's part of it without an earlier comparison so that's the reason for the length that's been given because it seems unusual to have 24 months but it's been an unusual time and it'd be good to have some comparatives so very much hoping that this shouldn't be too controversial and that we can have this information, please chair thank you Thank you, do you have a seconder, Councillor Williams? I'm happy a seconder motion Thank you, Councillor Graham Coyne Councillor Agen Fandabae Yes, I would like to move a resolution to refer this motion without further debate to this and the overview committee under power 13.6.c of the standing orders I believe that I have a seconder Is that Councillor Goff who's seconding that so Councillor Agen Fandabae has proposed referral to the Scryffinian Overview Committee Councillor Neil Goff has seconded so we go in that case we go straight to the vote can I take a vote on that to the Scryffinian Overview Committee we've got the coats in front of you agreed is it agreed by affirmation does anybody wish to object to that and anybody wish to abstain so in that case by affirmation so we take that by affirmation it has been referred to Scryffinian Overview Committee thank you the last item on the agenda is the chair's engagements and the next meeting of the council will be on the 25th of November at 2pm thank you I close the meeting at 18.28 thank you