 Hello and welcome to Newsclick. It has been one year since the abrogation of article 370 in Kashmir and one year since the statehood of Jammu and Kashmir was revoked. To talk about this, we have with us Dr. Radha Kumar, who was formally appointed as an interlocutor by the center to Kashmir in 2010. And we will be discussing with her the current situation in Kashmir after many promises were made by the Amit Shah and Narendra Modi duo of, you know, development, prosperity for the citizens of Kashmir when this move was passed. But what really is the situation today? To talk about this, we have with us Dr. Radha Kumar. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you. So to start with, can you talk about just the present situation in Kashmir in terms of the health, the education and the livelihoods of people? But how has that been affected by all these different kinds of lockdowns that have been in place first due to the August 4 lockdown, then the COVID lockdown. So while the report that you're also a part of the forum on for human rights in Jammu and Kashmir, which recently published its report on the impact of the lockdown in Kashmir. What were the sort of findings that came out in the process of compiling the support on the situation right now? The first I think finding was how a whole series of human rights from Hades Corpus to the right to bail to the right to a speedy trial to protections against arbitrary arrest to the rights of children not to be arrested. All of these were violated from August 4 onwards. What we did find, and there was very little recourse in the sense that the courts took a very, very long time on any of these petitions on Hades Corpus or bail. And in that sense, one might say that really, you can say that those rights were denied even by the courts, which is a sad situation. We also found that you have people in India perhaps don't realize that what we're talking about is in effect one year of lockdown in what used to be a state of the country. And obviously, if you have one year of a lockdown, you are going to have terrible impacts on the economy on health and on education. Looking at industry estimates that have come out of the valley, for example, from the Kashmir Chamber of Commerce and Industry indicate that there could be a loss of as much as 40,000 crore across all sectors of the industry. Obviously, the most severely affected were also those that contributed a very large proportion of the GDP of the state, the fruit industry, the tourism industry services. All of these were severely impacted smaller industries like handicrafts or information technology. Many, many companies, especially startups were forced to go out of business. In the March budget, we did not see any allocations for compensations for these losses. And these losses were not due to natural disasters, but due to manmade disaster. On health, we saw interestingly that the impact on health could be divided into two phases. The first phase being the first say two to three months from August 4th to let's say October. When, you know, communications were snapped when section 144 was imposed when no one could go to the hospital and when you could not speak to your doctor on the telephone. Clinics were closed. Pharmacies could not deliver medicines. Vital medicines did not arrive at pharmacies. Already, news reports have indicated that several people died in that period just for lack of access to healthcare. And that's really very shocking. The COVID lockdown by contrast was allowed some movement. People could go to hospitals even though on average it took three or four times the amount of time to get to a hospital compared to pre August 2019. But still doctors had terrible difficulties. They could not keep up with the latest information and research on the pandemic and methods of dealing with it. Nurses could not attend even government conferences digitally because of the restriction to two G networks and patients who spoke to their doctors were not able to visually explain what their ailment was. So across all categories, you saw a negative, a severe negative impact on healthcare. Education was one of the major sufferers. First, post the lockdown schools were closed. Then when they were opened, it was very difficult for parents to send their children to school because they couldn't communicate with them on the phone. They couldn't check on them. They couldn't communicate with the school. And that was a risk that obviously most parents were not willing to take as I would not be either. When things began to improve slightly and some movement was allowed. And at least some basic communication was possible. Schools open for perhaps two weeks, then there were winter vacations, then came the COVID pandemic and again, the continuing restriction to two G at this point became really dire in terms of its impact on education because online classes could barely function. Most of the time they were snapped. You could not, you know, many students couldn't even get online. And this we found across the board in all parts of Jamu and Kashmir, this problem of two G and teachers as well as students were traumatized by the inability for the students the inability to learn or to even see, you know, familiar friendly faces and for teachers the inability to deliver the kind of education that they wished to give their students. I mean, teaching is like health is a vocation. Still, it's not a money making enterprise. So that that that I would say was tragic. Doctors have told us how the rates of trauma have shot up stress trauma distress disability inability to function. The innumerable mental health problems from child to adult. Again, across the state. Now, looking at all of these, you ask yourself, why you know what can be the possible justification for this. We hear the Jamu and Kashmir administration as well as the Union Home Ministry, saying that all of these steps were necessary in the name of security that if these steps had not been taken and figures for militancy would rise figures of terrorism cross border organization and so on would all rise. I would only say that they have not really shown any substantive or convincing evidence. It is true that figures for casualties have dropped by about 30% compared to the same one year preceding year of August to you know 2018 to June 2019. But that drop is not in absolute numbers. It's not a very large drop. We're talking maybe a couple of hundred. So if you look deeper into the government figures, what you see is that actually incidents of violence were dropping continuously from 2002 onwards from a height of say you know 4000 or 5000 incidents by 2013 you had come down to something like 150 slowly after 2014 those figures for violence started to rise slightly but still very slightly compared to the 90s or even the early 2000s. The only conclusion to be derived from those figures is actually that the impact of peace and dialogue processes during the 2000s did impact in terms of bringing incidents of violence down. And there were two major factors. I mean one was the dialogue with all shades of political opinion as the government put it in Jammu and Kashmir. And the other was the fact that the security forces had adopted a hearts and minds policy where they tried for example to restrict cordon and search operations to the bare minimum and to ensure that you know orders that the Supreme Court had supported the army chief to give in terms of respect for human rights that those were strictly adhered to to the extent possible. I mean security forces never adhere strictly to all human rights norms. So so these two factors together had contributed a great deal to the rise of some hope for a political solution to this long standing issue of the relationship between Jammu and Kashmir and the rest of the Indian Union. However what we've seen from 2014 onwards and certainly at a really accelerated pace in this last one year is that cordon and search operations for example have shot up in number. Every single day we saw from the beginning of June to date almost we have had a cordon and search operation, whichever way you cut it that is inevitably going to lead, not only to an increase in casualties, but even more seriously to a real alienation of the population. Again I would say any one of us can imagine what it would be like to have suddenly, you know, a number of armed soldiers come surround our locality, start searching all the houses in some cases where there is strong evidence to show that militants may be hiding laying IEDs. It is a very terrifying experience and it cannot be something that can become a norm. It has to be rare if you want actually to bring peace in an area. Yeah definitely that was an interesting part of the report how the complete focus on security considerations over the lives of the people is also significantly contributing to the alienation process. And another area of major impact is of course the Kashmiri media. So what were your findings on the media, on the independence of media, considering the effects of the new media policy and also of course the severe restrictions on internet connectivity. Well, let me begin first with what happened in August. With the imposition of 144 snapping of all communications and so on, and preventive detentions of 6600 people, a vast number, was that protest was very difficult. And I did notice that the media actually expressed its protest by refusing to publish for as long as two months. So that silent protest I think was quite important you know when people say oh there was no protest. The fact is that if you look there was actually quite a lot of protest, some of it silent, not only did the media refuse to publish, parents decided to boycott schools. Again in a sign of protest. So you had many instances of that sort. What also happened simultaneously was that you had always had some degree of censorship of the of the local media and Jamu and Kashmir, part of it was self censorship. Part of it was that whether it was government agencies or whether it was other funders, they would often put advertisements only in those papers which they felt reflected their point of view or praise their actions so you did have that kind of problem earlier to Nevertheless, you saw in the period from let us say 2002 three onwards, quite a flowering of the media in Jamu and Kashmir large number of papers were published and they had relative freedom. If you went by the opinion columns, you had every type of opinion being expressed you had very loud criticism sometimes you had huge support for what we call separatist opinion. All of that just stopped from August 2019. We have not seen I mean it is astonishing that when you have a step as major, as removing the special status of a unit of the of the Union, and then you decide to divide it and demoted to two Union territories, something that has not happened in the history of independent India. You would expect some criticism. The fact that there has been absolutely no opinion article published on these political issues is is is absolutely astounding and it can only mean drastic draconian censorship. The new media policy in that sense substantiates that suspicion. If you read that policy it is basically handing over control of the media to the security agencies. It's absolute censorship. It's a disaster. And it surely must be illegal. And yeah, like you like you said, in the beginning of this question how they were how media is, of course, one way to resist, which is now basically been clamped down. And also with this heavy handed security approach and the clamp down on media now what do you think are the avenues of resistance peaceful resistance that are now available to the people what, how do you think people can now resist. Well, I think that, of course I may be being terribly optimistic, but my sense is that it's increasingly difficult to justify keeping the the severe curves and restrictions going in Jamu and Kashmir. You know, okay first six months you sort of say well we don't want protests there all these threats of terrorism, and so on and so forth. But now you've had a year. The COVID lockdowns are easing all over the country. In any case, 4G has nothing to do with COVID. Even this government will not claim it has anything to do with COVID. Having an absolute security type administration is not sustainable. The protest has gradually mounted over this past year, if not within the state, certainly in other parts of the country internationally, and so on. And so my sense is that, for example, more opinion, more critical opinion is going to be expressed now. And it will not be so easy to simply arrest people who are critical and charge them with PSA or UAPA or some other draconian legislation. The courts are beginning to wake up to all the criticism on habeas corpus and bail. You must have seen that the media is now beginning to highlight those issues, the media, the national media. And so I expect that slowly we are going to hear more voices from Jammu and Kashmir. It may only be speech. I would be interested to see if any of the political parties try to organize a gathering, what will be the response. But at this present moment, because of the COVID lockdown, it's difficult to organize a gathering. Though I do notice that the BJP, for example, is having gatherings. I mean, Mr. Shah, the Home Minister seems to have contracted COVID at a BJP function. So it's interesting that, okay, some people can have gatherings, others cannot. But that is a state that we have seen all over our country in the past one year. Because the distinctions and the biases are very clear. To go back to your question. Therefore, I expect to see more, at least public expression, maybe only through speech, maybe not through gathering. On the other hand, I think that all of us must also and quite realistically fear that other forms of protest, for example, arise in militancy. Again, you cannot indefinitely maintain the kind of tight security clamped down in presence that you have and that you have had for one year. This is not indefinitely maintainable or sustainable. And I'm sure that even within the security forces, there are voices saying that. So if that starts to loosen a little, you can also expect that militant protest may also increase. And that of course is a problem. It's a terrible problem. First and foremost for the people of Jammu and Kashmir to have to again undergo a period of militancy that had gradually beginning to disappear. So I say this with sorrow that it does seem to me that this is a likelihood. Of course, we all know that the best way to deal with militancy is peace talks. The evidence is very clear to see. During the peace process of 2004 to 2007, eight, that's when you saw the really dramatic decline of violence. And that lesson is so clear that evidence is so clear that even today were the government just to to try to open peace talks. I think that they could prevent a huge rise in militancy, but it's a very difficult task. And I don't see any inclination at the moment in this government. I also wanted to know about the current recommendations that your report made that the report of the Forum of Human Rights on Jammu and Kashmir makes on how the situation present situation can be improved. Can you also talk a little bit about that just to conclude our interview. Sure. Well, as you see, we have made 12 recommendations, which is not too large a number but large enough. On human rights, on the classic human rights, we've said that all these denials, whether it's habeas corpus or preventive detention or, you know, using draconian charges to silence dissent arrest of journalists, minors and so on, that both the government should release all who are still in detention, and that the courts should deal speedily in terms of the Constitution and the jurisprudence on habeas corpus, Dale, etc. As well. And we have also said that minors under no conditions can be put in detention, which is the law. We have actually not said anything which is not the law basically what we've said is please obey the law in letter if not in spirit to make sure that that these fundamental human rights are not violated in the way they have been. We've said 4G should be restored in total. We've said compensation needs to be given to industries that suffered losses due to be August for the political what one may call the political clap down. We've talked about the need for for children to be given the kind of mental health care that the Supreme Court itself had ordered, but on which again we have absolutely no information whether it has happened or not. We have raised the question of section 144, which you know is never supposed to be imposed in a blanket fashion. Its district magistrates are supposed to take into account the prevailing conditions within the district and to be convinced of clear and present danger, not speculation of danger, but some evidence that actually shows real danger, and only then should they impose section 144. That principle has been violated completely for the past one year, you even have I mean government orders JK government orders saying all district magistrates may be directed to apply section 144. That is not within the mandate of a home secretary or a chief secretary that is only to be decided by the district magistrate on the ground. So series of of of those recommendations. Thank you rocker adik ma for speaking to us today. And that is all the time we have today keep watching this.