 everyone and hello again. Yeah, I'm super happy to sit here with Maria from Reddily to talk on a very delicate topic, actually. And it's about when founders hand over to another person and you come in as an external manager to basically take over their baby, which actually happened to both of us. And I'm very, very personally excited about the talk to also learn from Maria how her journey was and also to share my own very personal story because I think it's always a very emotional story. And I guess that's why we all laugh, right? Emotional stories. So let's go on, Maria. Tell us your story. What is the funny story of Reddily? How did you get into your position? Yeah, thanks, Christine. I'm also super excited to be here and to hear your story. But if I start with Ridley, our founder, Joel Viquel, he's a serial entrepreneur. And in 2012, he was on holiday in Cyprus and came up with the idea. He was by the pool and he was frustrated because he ran out of magazines to read. So he thought he was listening to music and he was like, I want like a Spotify for magazines. Like I want to carry around all my favorite content on my mobile. So since he's a tech entrepreneur, he went home and built the thing, right? And the rest is, as they say, history. So that's how Ridley was founded is the European category leader in digital magazine subscriptions. And we're around a million users today in 12 markets and we have offices in Paris, in Sweden, in Berlin and in London. And yeah, we have content from 1,200 publishers all over the world. So, and how I came into the picture is that Joel, he is no longer active in the business. For a while he was first the CEO and founder, of course, and then he moved on to the board of directors and now he's just an owner. And you heard my background is also from Isettle. So how I was introduced to the business is that the largest shareholder of Isettle was also a large shareholder in Ridley. So when PayPal acquired Isettle, that company's venture capital firm asked if I wanted to join Ridley instead and head it as a CEO. So that's why, how I got introduced to the business and I love tech, I love magazines. So it was no brainer. So tell me about you and Nuri. Before I tell you about Nuri, what was your first thought when they approached you and asked you if you want to take over as a CEO? Yeah, I was just really thrilled and excited. So I'm like that. I don't always think about, wow, what is this going to be? I just do it because it sounded amazing and then I figure it out later. But it's an interesting topic that we're going to talk about today. Like you said, it's a bit sensitive maybe even. So yeah, so tell me about Nuri. So actually Nuri was called Bitvala until 18th of May this year. So it was founded by three guys in Berlin, by Jörg von Minkwitz, by Jan Roslicki and Ben Jones. Three friends that were super active in the crypto and mainly in the Bitcoin scene in Berlin very early on, like 2012. These are the lucky dudes that actually invested in Bitcoin when Bitcoin was around 60 euro. I was not one of these lucky people, by the way. So they actually started initially with the product to make your Bitcoin spendable. So they solved their own problem because they had a lot of Bitcoin and they actually wanted to use it for payments in the real world, right? So we always talk about Bitcoin as a payment use case. However, in the real world, you somehow need to have a card. So they actually connected crypto wallets first with a Visa card. Along the line, the credit card provider lost its license. So they actually had to come up with a new product within just a very short amount of time. And that was basically how Biswala was founded. So they actually combined a traditional banking account with a possibility to buy crypto right from your bank account. So it's a combination of the traditional world of banking with a blockchain-based world of banking. So we offered a custodial wallet setup, a non-custodial wallet setup and the opportunity to put Bitcoin into an interest account and earn interest on it. So Jörg von Mingwitz was initially the CEO. He left the company at the end of like 2018. Then at some point, Ben Jones, the CTO took over and was then the CEO and the CTO of the company. And yeah, he was the person that actually started to approach me on LinkedIn last year, many times. A time when I was working at N26 and I was already working on disrupting the banking world. But then he came up with his crazy ideas and while working in a new bank, in a pretty large new bank actually, I also understood that we're pretty limited when it comes to to build financial innovation. So eventually after the third LinkedIn email, I get back to him and I said, okay, tell me about your product. I wanna learn more. And so he hired me initially as a Chief Product Officer. That was already the first question because I asked him, what do you want from me? I'm not coming from the crypto background as you guys, but he said, we're looking for a consumer-facing product person that can help us to bring the product more towards the mess. So I joined them as a Chief Product Officer last year in September. And the guys didn't give me a lot of time for onboarding. They wanted to see a new product vision within a few weeks, put me in front of investors for fundraising after week five and as we were about to scale the company, I was sitting next to my CEO all the time and he told me, this is how we're gonna do it. And I said, nah, we're gonna do it differently because I had a background in large tech companies and I think after three months he was so annoyed by it that he said at some point, Christina, do you just want to take over? And I said, hell no, I don't want to. And he said, no, no, I'm serious. I'm just like, after working with you for three months, I have the feeling like you bring so much experience from large companies. You went through so many hyper girls' faces with Solano, with N26. So I think you wait no way better what our company needs in the next stage. And then I looked at him and I started crying. Like literally that's what I did. I started crying and I asked him if he's insane. And then I also took quite some time to think about it because I knew it's not a job anymore. It's like a birth of your baby. I imagine I don't have kids. Yeah, so then after a lot of conversations and a lot of conversations not only with our management team that said, Christina, you can do it. We believe in you. Our investor said, Christina, you can do it. We believe in you. My friend said it. I'm like, okay, if everyone believes it, I'm not sure if I believe myself, but I give it a try. And yeah, I love the journey very much since then. Oh, yeah, I get goosebumps hearing you. But so tell me now, up until now, what do you think are the challenges of leading a company you didn't found and you even have your side-by-side with the founder as well. He's on the board and you work together. And do you see any advantages even? Yeah. I think a challenge that I was very concerned about is how will the employees think about it? Because they join a certain mission and I think in an early stage startup, you're always also somehow join the people, the leaders that are leading this company. So I was always afraid that people would think, Anna, this lady is coming from larger companies. She will destroy the fund. That was actually my biggest concern that people would think that about me. But then also, I think just getting everyone on the journey and scale the culture because I believe as a CEO, if you want it or not, you define culture, how you say things, if you bring things up in a sure fix with your team or not, if you let things happen, if you don't let them happen, no matter what you do say, how you act, you define culture. And I think that's a very individual topic based on a personality. And I think Ben and me, we're not so far from each other in a lot of things, but ultimately we're different people. And I love the culture that he brought into the company and I really, really wish for that I can scale that because we grew from 50 to 200 people this year. And I'm very glad if I see our engagement scores because ultimately I managed to do that. So that's the internal part, still keeping his vision because I think that's what made the company big and so successful, but basically then managed to also professionalize it within the company, strategize it to bring it to the next stage. And if you have a strong vision, maybe you take different strategic directions how you get there, but still you should not forget about the vision, that's the internal perspective, but then externally, often when I talk to investors, we're approaching our growth investors, like a lot of people asking me, but where are the founders? And like Ben, for example, that he was the former CEO, he usually even pitches with me because he's still a very active part in our company. He represents the company on conferences. He runs the blockchain education sessions within the company. He's even like talking vision with us in the management board, even though he's not an active manager, so to say. So I think even externally I was very concerned that it would create the idea that the founders don't want to be involved in the company anymore, which is not the case. I'm actually going to run with Ben every week, Tuesday morning, we meet at 7 a.m. and go for a run. So I share my struggles with him. And most importantly, he really takes care of me. He's the person asking me, Christina, don't forget about all the numbers. How are you doing? And are you taking care of yourself? And I'm really, really happy to have him on my side for that. Oh, that sounds great. So yeah, lucky. Tell me about you, like what are your challenges that did you see at the moment? Yeah, I think there is always two sides to one coin. And so what can be a challenge can also be, I think, an opportunity. So in my situation, the founder is not longer visible in the company at all. And I think, like you mentioned, the challenge can be that a lot of people, when you have founded the business, it's your baby, you created the idea, you made it fly with your blood, sweat, and tears. With that comes a natural form of authority. And so people will really listen to you as a founder and maybe not debate and argue so much about things. So I think you have a very strong idea and how hard things should be done, which can create clarity in the organization when you have a founder. And the challenge then, when you come in as a sort of professional CEO, is that you may need to explain things more or like persuade things more and be very sort of stubborn and thorough and repeat why in a way that maybe as a founder you don't always have to. But I think the positive side can be that if you didn't found it and it wasn't your idea from the beginning, you're not limited to the original ideas and visions and very clear idea of how it should be done. And this is no criticism to our founder or any other founder, but it's natural. After a while you'll get a little bit of blindsided because you have a very strong vision and idea of how things should be done and who is the key audience, who is the target customer and what's this and that. And if you're coming from the outside, you have maybe a little bit more freedom to think in a different way and look at things in a different way and not be bound by that original idea because the consumer evolve, right? The world around us evolve and there may be opportunities and innovative ideas to develop the business that the founder didn't originally think about. So I think that can be a positive sort of side effect of not being a founder and leading the business, I think. And I also think that as a founder, even if you don't intend to, founder-led companies can become a bit hierarchical and it's just because people don't really question your ideas that much. You obviously did and that's why you got the COC. I think that's great. I think your founders have a very sort of good perspective on themselves and don't take themselves too sort of serious, but it's very easy that people always look to the founder and say, what do you think we should do, you know? And I think that can create, you know, when you grow, when you're three people, that's fine, when you're 700 people or thousands of people that will slow the business down if you have a long line of people outside and nobody will do anything. Because they're scared that this, you know, the founder doesn't approve or it's not in line with his vision. Or, so I think that can be a positive effect, that you can create a culture that, you know, removes those kind of sort of bottlenecks in the business. I think in our case that was quite interesting because he actually approached me and asked me, Christina, how do we go towards mainstream? So that was his ask to me and I think that's why it was way easier for me from a product perspective already to pave the way towards mainstream and I think it also helps that we rebranded, we have a new name and he absolutely is in love with all of that and I think that made it easier for him to let go and it was easier for me to feel more like a founder because you cannot do a CEO role like a manager, right? You give up your private life. I mean, I gave up, I would say, 100% of my private life and I'm constantly reachable for everyone and everything, mostly for my employees. And that's a decision and I think you can only do it if you really feel like a founder to a certain degree. I think also what you just said, I also believe that it helps that you see the product moving forward more as a, yeah, as a product management topic, so to say, you know, to figure out what does your customer really want, not what I personally want, but what does my customer want, how do I make sure? I think, yeah, that was also very helpful to have a product background here where you can take yourself out, your ego out and saying it's not me. Like, I think a lot of founders think they are their company. It's basically interconnected with them as a human being and that's not the case, right? Oh, cool. So are there also some challenges that you face when you took over? Well, there are always challenges, right? I think I'm very good that you talk about scaling culture. Because I think you have to work very actively in creating a scalable culture where people dare to lead themselves, dare to lead their teams, and if you're gonna maintain a high pace, in a disruptive environment, maybe you need to be able to unleash the power of all the teams and to show people that it's okay to take decisions and not just ask your manager every time and to fail, make mistakes and succeed. I think that takes a lot of work, especially in small companies that are not used to sort of professional sort of scaling management like that. But it's also a great opportunity, I think. But I always think, if somebody asked me, you know, if I'm a founder, what should I think about to prepare my company that one day somebody else might take over? Then I would say really focus on the culture to prepare the business to be what you call it, autonomous and not rely on you as a founder. Actually sort of remove the need for yourself in the business to create a culture where people dare to challenge you as a founder like you did with your founder. I think that's a great, you're a great role model, I think. But you let me challenge and I think it's the difference, right? I mean, there are other founders like that. Yeah, but as a founder, you need to allow people to challenge you and create a culture where people actually don't need you every day for decisions or can challenge your ideas and come up with new great ones and you have to be prepared to kill your darlings and tell everybody that that's okay. And I think that is one really good way of preparing the business long term and not tell people what to do but ask them what would you want to do and it may feel like it takes a long time in the beginning because it's much quicker to just tell them what to do because you know, you have the vision, you know so well, this is what we should be doing. So it may feel like it takes a long time but it will go a long way and make the business more scalable and faster in the end, I think. I once received a really good leadership advice from one of my team leads in Zalando back in the days because I always thought even when I had my first team lead position back in the days that I need to prove everyone that I'm smart and then I can do it. And she at some point told me, look, in the end it's about like, if people that have worked under you are great people and everyone in the company knows them, then you do a great job, right? In the end, like how you lead your team that's completely up to you but people will say the people in Christina's team are obviously everyone is like super smart and talented because it shows you can hire, you can put the team together and you're not relying on them so people can give you even higher positions somewhere else, you know? So that was kind of more a career advice, probably what she gave to me. However, I think this really holds true as well in a startup which is probably easier as an external manager than if you're a founder because I think a founder, as they're so connected with the company, it is their baby, they've born the baby. You know, the baby didn't come through me, I'm more like Mother Mary, having suddenly a baby. But it's very different for me because I learn now that the people that are higher into my C-level, they must be way smarter than me. I only hire people in that I learned from because then they can tell me how it's been done and then everyone thinks Christina is leading the company in a great way and therefore I have to hire better people. Whereas as a founder, often things, I have to do everything myself and I have to prove everything myself because it's me, it's ultimately my company because I started it, I was there from day one on. Of course I should know better. I'm not saying that everyone is like that but what I observe when I actually talk to a lot of founders it's what they think is the hardest part. And by the way, I think it's a shame that we don't have a founder here that actually handed over and I hope we can apply Ben, our founder actually, to hand it over to me to sit here next year and actually share his perspective because I guess it's a very inspiring one as well. Yeah, I'm sure. So Maria, what advice would you not give to all the potential upcoming CEOs in the audience but also maybe founders that have reached a certain scale and maybe want to hand over at some point? Yeah, so I talked earlier about really prepping the culture and prepping the people and just share your knowledge because that is of course when you don't have a founder in the business anymore at all, you have the advantage of being able to take advice from your founder. I can't do that. So how do you make sure that the experience and the mistakes that you made aren't remade later that you can pay that forward with the team even after you're gone. But I also think to take over as a professional CEO from a founding led company, I think the advice I would give is just of course you need to be humble and listen to people's experience and concerns and idea but just still being able to balance, have that humility but still really have confidence in yourself. You were brought on to do that job for a reason so believe in yourself and just be really stubborn about your goal and your vision and take the opportunity to set your mark. There is a new sheriff in town as I say but of course make sure to really use the experience from the previous founder and all the people in the business. What would you give as an advice to somebody taking over from a founder? So I think what was very interesting is that our founder he reached out I think for a longer period of time even before he told me he was asking his trust people in the company if they think he's still the right person for the next stage. So I think he was proactive enough to get feedback and until today that's what I often do that I ask the people that I'm really trusting in the company if they think I'm the right person for this job. And it's not that I don't trust myself but it's always good to get an outside perspective sometimes and a confirmation as well. The second thing is also talk a lot like it sounds always so simple but communication is really key here that you can be open and share also about your emotions because that thing is very emotional and I think it's driven by emotions and that's the reason why often these things don't go so well. What Ben and I did like for a few weeks every night we were in the phone and sharing about like how do you currently feel? I told him I feel left alone by you because I came here because of you as a CEO and now you just wanna throw everything at me. And he said I'm not gonna throw it at you I just think like I wanna encourage you to go that step because everyone believes in you. So it was a lot of like conversation how can we make that work? And initially we even discussed if you do it as a co-CEO or not and but we just we were super openly sharing our thoughts when we're not holding back super genuine, super honest and I think this is what made this whole transition also so successful that we could speak openly about it. But I also believe like as if you are maybe in a sea level position and you are in a good spot also talk to your founder say maybe hey I bring some skills that can support you. So also like even open their eyes for this possibility that you might be in a good spot. I mean why not bring in yourself up as well because I think a lot of founders are very, very grateful if they get the right feedback if they're being made aware of their blind spots because on the one side it gives them the opportunity to grow and being coached on them but also it gives them the opportunity to reflect on themselves and maybe come up with such a decision for themselves at some point. I think communication is absolutely key for that. Yeah, great advice. Thank you. We could talk for hours about this I'm sure. Yeah. All right. All right. I think we're wrapping up for today so we learned a lot that communication is obviously key if you get into this situation. I think it doesn't necessarily mean also for the VCs in the room that if there is a founder maybe moving out of a management situation that it's disadvantageous for a company because they can be still a great collaboration. I think it's important to be humble to show empathy also for the employees to listen to them. Yeah, and just I think understand that we're all human beings and these situations are just very delicate and I think there is a lot of different actors that we have to look into. There is the employees, there's the company that buys into something. You have the VC side, they invested maybe in people in a very early stage. It's also very important in perspective because then if someone takes over later on that's maybe not the person they invested in but then it's the two main actors as well. It's the management board as well because the constellation in your management will definitely change as well. And I think also as a professional CEO it's important to, as long as a person have passion, passion and the right background and the right experience and the energy. Even if you didn't found the company doesn't mean that you're not able to take the company to even higher grounds. So that's what I would finish off with. All right, I would say to the higher grounds of successful companies. Thank you so much, Maria. Thank you.